Bicycle Mechanics - Wheel build, spoke length help

I know these threads come up all the time, but I am hoping to get a little help and confirmation before I buy some parts.

I am doing my first build and I'll be using Kinlin XR-300 rims laced to an Ultegra 6600 rear hub and an XT M756 front disc hub. 32 spokes each, 3x.

I don't have any of the parts on hand yet, but the measurements are available from a wide variety of sources and all give the same values.

Front hub gives me a center to flange of 21.1 on the left, and 31.7 on the right with a 61mm flange diameter. Rear hub is 38.4 on the right and 20.8 left, with a diameter of 45mm.

Using two different calculators and an ERD of 577, I get:

Front - 277.8 L and 278.8 R
Rear - 282 L and 280.1 R

So I'm thinking I will order 278mm spokes for the front wheel with 282 and 280 for the rear. In all the reading I've been doing, I keep seeing to round down on spoke lengths, so is the 278 going to give me a problem for the left side of the front wheel? One source for the spokes sells in even numbers only, but is the cheapest I've seen, so that's why I'm apprehensive.

I'll be doing much more reading before I start the build, but I'd like to have all the parts here before I do that, so any advice is greatly appreciated.

it's best if you can get 277mm for the front and 281mm, 279mm for the rear.
which spokes are you going to use?
straight gauge, and 2.0/1.8/2.0mm DB spokes you use the exact lengths after rounding down, but on thinner butted spokes, like 2.0/1.5/2.0mm you subtract another 1mm.

I'll be using 2/1.8/2 spokes and brass nipples.

Are you suggesting I get 277 for the entire front wheel or just for the left side?

Reading Sheldon's page for wheelbuilding, he said he usually rounds up to the nearest available length.

Man this is confusing.

I'll be using 2/1.8/2 spokes and brass nipples.

Are you suggesting I get 277 for the entire front wheel or just for the left side?

Reading Sheldon's page for wheelbuilding, he said he usually rounds up to the nearest available length.

Man this is confusing.

yep, the front wheel, even with the disc offset, is about 1mm, which can be done with a single spoke size.
too short is easier to correct than too long.
If all that's available is even sizes, then go for 276mm for the front and 280mm, 282mm for the rear.

actually, from my measurements, XR-300 gives 582mm ERD, so you might want to get the rims first, at the very least.

Hmm, 582 huh? I'll have to look into that. I can definitely get the rims first.

So you have used 582 in a build and didn't run into any problems?

Hmm, 582 huh? I'll have to look into that. I can definitely get the rims first.

So you have used 582 in a build and didn't run into any problems?

worked out great.

too short is easier to correct than too long.
If all that's available is even sizes, then go for 276mm for the front and 280mm, 282mm for the rear.

actually, from my measurements, XR-300 gives 582mm ERD, so you might want to get the rims first, at the very least.

AEO:

I have never built a wheel from this rim,
but the online pictures show it as one
of those aero triangular box rims with
a recessed chamber where the nipples
(thus also the spoke ends) sit.

I'm certain you have a reason for the
statement about too short being easier
to correct than too long. In
this case spoke protrusion is not a
concern.

So are you just going on the general
principle that if you come out a little short,
you just increase tension to put a few
more threads in the nipple--vs. too long
and you run out of threads?

Thanks. To the OP, he's right about manufacturers
playing fast and loose with ERD numbers. I don't
really understand why.

Respectfully,
Mike Larmer

AEO:

I have never built a wheel from this rim,
but the online pictures show it as one
of those aero triangular box rims with
a recessed chamber where the nipples
(thus also the spoke ends) sit.

I'm certain you have a reason for the
statement about too short being easier
to correct than too long. In
this case spoke protrusion is not a
concern.

So are you just going on the general
principle that if you come out a little short,
you just increase tension to put a few
more threads in the nipple--vs. too long
and you run out of threads?

Thanks. To the OP, he's right about manufacturers
playing fast and loose with ERD numbers. I don't
really understand why.

Respectfully,
Mike Larmer

in the event that they're too short, you go with a longer nipple, say 14mm nipple, which effectively shrinks the ERD by 3 to 4mm. Or, put another way, it, effectively, lengthens the spoke by 1.5 to 2mm.

If they're too long, they will bottom out in the nipple and no amount of twisting will make the spoke tighter.
There's only room for about 2mm extra length of spoke that can protrude from the nipple before it will bottom out and bind. By going shorter, you can have fix it by using 14mm or 16mm nipples or by going with one less cross.

If they're too long, they will bottom out in the nipple and no amount of twisting will make the spoke tighter.
There's only room for about 2mm extra length of spoke that can protrude from the nipple before it will bottom out and bind.

This is why I always round down. And if any part of the spoke is 1.5 mm (or less) in thickness round down an extra mm. Thin spokes stretch.

This is why I always round down. And if any part of the spoke is 1.5 mm (or less) round down an extra mm. Thin spokes stretch.

I don't understand what you mean by this. Are you saying you would round down from 281.5 to 280? And by extension, would you go from 281.6 to 282 or 281? Sorry if that's a dumb question, I'm trying to learn as much about this as I can. Thanks.

I don't understand what you mean by this. Are you saying you would round down from 281.5 to 280? And by extension, would you go from 281.6 to 282 or 281? Sorry if that's a dumb question, I'm trying to learn as much about this as I can. Thanks.

I was actually repeating what AEO had already said. The worst that can happen is to run out of threads before reaching your target tension. This can easily happen if your spokes are too long. Rounding down helps prevent this if for some reason your spokes turn out to be on the long side. If you were to use 2.0-1.5-2.0 or straight 1.5 mm spokes I would round down an extra mm to compensate for possible stretch. In the past I have had to replace some drive side rear spokes because they had stretched far enough that the nipples could no longer be adjusted to a higher tension. All of the threads had been used.
I don't understand your question about "extension". I would never round up the drive side rear spokes because the tension is really high on modern multi-speed deep dished wheels.

Chalk that up to me being an idiot. I didn't realize that you were referring to width when you said 1.5mm or less. I get what point you were making, thanks for the clarification.

worked out great.

So if you were going to build a new wheel with this rim, would you measure them again when you received them or order spokes using the ERD as 582? I guess what I'm getting at is how much variation can be seen between individual rims of the same model?

So I measured the ERD and I came up with 580. Of course its different than what others have said. Why should this be easy?

So if I use 580 and EDD calculator, I get measurements of 279.2 and 280.2 for the front, and 283.5 and 281.6 for the rear. I'm thinking I can use 278 for the front and 280 and 282 for the rear.

I'm thinking I will go with straight gauge spokes to save a little money. What do you guys think?

spokes are the wrong place to save money ;)

While the double butted might cost more, they last longer than straight gauge, which offsets the costs.

Sure, spokes are not an investment, as they are consumables, but you really aren't saving money by spending time building up your own wheels either, so you might as well use the better parts.

Here are some cheap triple butted 278mm. They are a bit prone to winding up, but not as bad as revolutions.
http://shop.vendio.com/benscycle/category/43/

So I measured the ERD and I came up with 580. Of course its different than what others have said. Why should this be easy?

So if I use 580 and EDD calculator, I get measurements of 279.2 and 280.2 for the front, and 283.5 and 281.6 for the rear. I'm thinking I can use 278 for the front and 280 and 282 for the rear.

I'm thinking I will go with straight gauge spokes to save a little money. What do you guys think?

With regard to using straight gauge spokes
for your first build--:thumb:

With regard to your measurement of ERD--
I'm not sure what your method is, nor am
I certain of the tools you're using. I use
Roger Musson's "make your own out of
two spokes and nipples method" which
I believe you can find on his website.

If you've measured it a couple of times,
sooner or later you've gotta go with what
you know. If you're still a little nervous,
run both your ERD and any other credible
numbers (wasn't AEO's 582?) through
your calc and split the difference.

I use Roger Musson's online calculator, and
have had good results with it.

Your rounding seems about right to me.
Make sure you pick some good music to
work by and choose a spot with good light.

Enjoy the process, and if you make mistakes,
(you will if you do enough of these) try to
figure out where you went astray and take
a break. This is about all I got for you.:)

Mike

spokes are the wrong place to save money ;)

While the double butted might cost more, they last longer than straight gauge, which offsets the costs.

Sure, spokes are not an investment, as they are consumables, but you really aren't saving money by spending time building up your own wheels either, so you might as well use the better parts.

Here are some cheap triple butted 278mm. They are a bit prone to winding up, but not as bad as revolutions.
http://shop.vendio.com/benscycle/category/43/

You're right, I know. I'll go with DB then, and if I can find the ones you linked to in 282 I might go with those. What do you think about the lengths?

And thanks for all your help, very much appreciated.

With regard to using straight gauge spokes
for your first build--:thumb:

With regard to your measurement of ERD--
I'm not sure what your method is, nor am
I certain of the tools you're using. I use
Roger Musson's "make your own out of
two spokes and nipples method" which
I believe you can find on his website.

If you've measured it a couple of times,
sooner or later you've gotta go with what
you know. If you're still a little nervous,
run both your ERD and any other credible
numbers (wasn't AEO's 582?) through
your calc and split the difference.

I use Roger Musson's online calculator, and
have had good results with it.

Your rounding seems about right to me.
Make sure you pick some good music to
work by and choose a spot with good light.

Enjoy the process, and if you make mistakes,
(you will if you do enough of these) try to
figure out where you went astray and take
a break. This is about all I got for you.:)

Mike

Thanks Mike. To measure the ERD, I used this method. (http://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/spocalc.htm#MeasureHubAndRim)

Part of the reason I am thinking of using straight gauge spokes is because it's my first build. I'll think that over a bit before I order. At this point I'm much more concerned with getting the right length spokes.

The spoke lengths look good.
I would get the double butted spokes. Either 15-16 or 14-15. It is not much more difficult to build with the butted spokes. When tightening them go about 1/4 turn too far then come back.
There is no real advantage to the 1.5 mm spokes and they are much harder to tension with.

Thanks Mike. To measure the ERD, I used this method. (http://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/spocalc.htm#MeasureHubAndRim)

This method should work, but has more places to go astray
than the "make your own tool out of spokes" method.

You take two two old spokes (or new ones), but they have to be
pretty straight. Loctite the threads and screw the nipples on all the
way until the spoke end is even with the bottom of the head groove.
Let them dry and then mark exactly (and this is the only tricky part)
on the spoke 100mm from the end of the spoke inside the nipple
(you can see it ). You now have two spokes that you can insert
as in your previous method, the nipples are fixed in place, and you
just need to pull them tight and measure the gap between your marks
and add 200 to get your ERD.

I have a number of my build wheels up to fifteen years in age (I'm
sorry, but I don't log mileage --not very scientific i know).
The majority are built of straight gauge spokes because that's
what was available to me cheaply. I use DT stainless almost
exclusively. Durability is not an issue, so if you're going with
the DB for that reason, I have some questions about the validity
based on my own experience.

I'm not arguing that DB spokes are not superior, only that
straight gauge are easier to work with, easy is better the
first time out of the gate, and in all probability if you use
14G DT straights, your wheels will last a long time.

Regards
Mike Larmer

The spoke lengths look good.
I would get the double butted spokes. Either 15-16 or 14-15. It is not much more difficult to build with the butted spokes. When tightening them go about 1/4 turn too far then come back.
There is no real advantage to the 1.5 mm spokes and they are much harder to tension with.

Yeah I bought the DB spokes. Wheelsmith ones, decided on silver to save a little coin too. Thanks for the tips.


This method should work, but has more places to go astray
than the "make your own tool out of spokes" method.

I measured each rim 4 times in different spots and the number was always consistent, so I think I got it right. But since I got a different number than two experienced wheel builders used I probably butchered it and will end up with unusable spokes. :cry:


You take two two old spokes (or new ones), but they have to be pretty straight. Loctite the threads and screw the nipples on all the way until the spoke end is even with the bottom of the head groove. Let them dry and then mark exactly (and this is the only tricky part) on the spoke 100mm from the end of the spoke inside the nipple (you can see it ). You now have two spokes that you can insert as in your previous method, the nipples are fixed in place, and you
just need to pull them tight and measure the gap between your marks and add 200 to get your ERD.

I have a number of my build wheels up to fifteen years in age (I'm sorry, but I don't log mileage --not very scientific i know). The majority are built of straight gauge spokes because that's what was available to me cheaply. I use DT stainless almost exclusively. Durability is not an issue, so if you're going with the DB for that reason, I have some questions about the validity based on my own experience.

I'm not arguing that DB spokes are not superior, only that straight gauge are easier to work with, easy is better the first time out of the gate, and in all probability if you use
14G DT straights, your wheels will last a long time.

Regards
Mike Larmer

I was thinking the same thing about the spokes, but I decided on the DB anyway. I don't anticipate too much trouble with this, but who knows. I'll certainly keep this thread updated as I go along since I will most likely have many more questions. Thanks.

Alan

I got the wheels laced up last night and I am going to start tensioning things up today. I've read that before I get any real tension in the spokes I want to get all the nipples screwed on to about the same place relative to the spoke. Any tips for this? I am thinking about stopping at the home depot on the way home to get a cheap screw driver and make the nipple driver Roger Musson suggests. That seems like it will be a lot of work though, so if I can avoid it I will.

When reaching higher tension I hold each spoke with pliers to avoid windup and advance the nipple on the spoke 1/16 turn at a time.
Radial truing, lateral truing, and rim centering (dishing) all effect each other. I think it is much easier to concentrate on radial truing earlier then dishing and lateral truing. To get it right you will need to mount and fully inflate the tire and tube before the final lateral truing and dishing. Air pressure compresses the rim reducing tension and effecting truing and dishing. How much effect this has depends on how high the pressure is and how stiff the rim is.

"To get it right you will need to mount and fully inflate the tire and tube before the final lateral truing and dishing."

I haven't seen that recommender very often.. rarely actually. So I struggle to understand why... when so many are building wheels at 120+ kgf.. how an inflated tire could chg spoke tension much.. if any at those high spoke tension readings? Maybe on the low count builds with very light rims?

"To get it right you will need to mount and fully inflate the tire and tube before the final lateral truing and dishing."

I haven't seen that recommender very often.. rarely actually. So I struggle to understand why... when so many are building wheels at 120+ kgf.. how an inflated tire could chg spoke tension much.. if any at those high spoke tension readings? Maybe on the low count builds with very light rims?

the rim compresses very slightly, but it's enough to dip that 120kg/f to 90kg/f.

"To get it right you will need to mount and fully inflate the tire and tube before the final lateral truing and dishing."

I haven't seen that recommender very often.. rarely actually. So I struggle to understand why... when so many are building wheels at 120+ kgf.. how an inflated tire could chg spoke tension much.. if any at those high spoke tension readings? Maybe on the low count builds with very light rims?

I've measured a 5%+ change in spoke tension at 120 psi, as as much as .5 mm change in dish on a rear wheel.
Wheels were 32 spoke 3X Open Pro and DT RR 1.1 rims.
This issue has been discussed here several times before.

I've measured a 5%+ change in spoke tension at 120 psi, as as much as .5 mm change in dish on a rear wheel.
Wheels were 32 spoke 3X Open Pro and DT RR 1.1 rims.
This issue has been discussed here several times before.

I'll definitely check to your experience... I'm more trying to get a read on how inflation is going to affect the builds I am doing now. Those tires in the 90 psi range.. 36 hole on the first one... very solid rim. I'll make a pt of checking them after inflation.. something to learn.

"the rim compresses very slightly, but it's enough to dip that 120kg/f to 90kg/f." via the other post.

Thing that comes to mind for me.. is the spokes are unwinding via that compression.... [?]. Or.. is this happening on very low count rims?

After reading some more on this subject.. I can definitely see final tuning on an inflated tire as the mark of a high end build.

I'll definitely check to your experience... I'm more trying to get a read on how inflation is going to affect the builds I am doing now. Those tires in the 90 psi range.. 36 hole on the first one... very solid rim. I'll make a pt of checking them after inflation.. something to learn.

"the rim compresses very slightly, but it's enough to dip that 120kg/f to 90kg/f." via the other post.

Thing that comes to mind for me.. is the spokes are unwinding via that compression.... [?]. Or.. is this happening on very low count rims?

After reading some more on this subject.. I can definitely see final tuning on an inflated tire as the mark of a high end build.

I don't think they are unwinding, because it's reproducible with 2.0mm straight gauge, which don't wind up much at all.
best way to measure, is taking a set of high precision callipers and comparing the outer width of a rim with no tire and with fully inflated tire.

I'll definitely check to your experience... I'm more trying to get a read on how inflation is going to affect the builds I am doing now. Those tires in the 90 psi range.. 36 hole on the first one... very solid rim. I'll make a pt of checking them after inflation.. something to learn.

"the rim compresses very slightly, but it's enough to dip that 120kg/f to 90kg/f." via the other post.

Thing that comes to mind for me.. is the spokes are unwinding via that compression.... [?]. Or.. is this happening on very low count rims?

After reading some more on this subject.. I can definitely see final tuning on an inflated tire as the mark of a high end build.

My spokes don't wind up because I hold each one with pliers as the tension gets high. Lubricating the threads also helps avoid windup.

One last (hopefully) question - How much difference should I aim for in the DS vs NDS tension? Same for the front disc hub, what should the difference between disc and non-disc side tension be? Thanks again.

Hoe to have these finished up tomorrow and get some pics up!

One last (hopefully) question - How much difference should I aim for in the DS vs NDS tension? Same for the front disc hub, what should the difference between disc and non-disc side tension be? Thanks again.

Hoe to have these finished up tomorrow and get some pics up!

The idea here is to get the rim running centered in the
rear triangle between the stays. So the difference between
drive and nondrive tensions sort of takes care of itself.
i.e. ideally you would build a wheel with even tensions
on both sides (front for example). The rear wheel on
derailleur bikes is a compromise. Likewise the wheels
on disc brake bikes are a compromise.

Get your rim centered using a dishing gauge or by
flipping it repeatedly in your stand. Get your spokes
tensioned as tightly as you can on both sides- short
of rim failure- while still maintaining that centering.

You are then done, except for a little touch up
here and there to the side to side true.

Most respectfully yours,
Mike Larmer

The difficult part of building a rear wheel is getting enough tension in the non-drive side spokes. Low tension spokes flex more and tend to break in the "J" bend at the hub flange. With multi-speed rear wheels the drive side flange has been displaced to make room for the cassette. This requires very high tension in the drive side spokes and much less tension in the non-drive side spokes. I usually gradually increase the drive side spoke tension to about 120 kgf. With the rim centered (dished) the non-drive side spokes may have only 55% - 60% as much tension as the DS spokes. With the tire and tube fully inflated I flip the wheel in the truing stand as many times as necessary to confirm that the rim is centered.

http://www.bikewebsite.com/build.htm

Came across this writeup.. trailing laced outside. I've always noted it was inside on other sites. Does this make any real difference?

I tore down a 27" rim here and set that group onto a different rim as I prefer to use that rim in another build. This rebuilt rim had a fair hop to the roundness which I managed to minimize pretty well. Made me go for much higher tension than my first wheel.. which I used musical pitch to compare tension. Seem to remember that article per pitch referencing around 1/3 of the testile [?] strength of the spokes for tension. I'm much higher than that in this 2nd build.. and I went back and retensioned the first build to this higher tension. MUCH better feel overall... the NDS are much firmer. I might carry this one along when I go to the LBS midweek to pick up a parts order... get a spoke tension check.

Laced my first 'all new' build this morn... my 48H 27". This narrower BMX hub offers a few choices. I think if I spread my steel dropout a little more I could manage a near zero dish wheel. Or.. I could dish and nearly arrive at the dropout width this steel frame came out as. One part coming is a longer axle... I'll mount the spacers and figure my needed width for zero.. and then decide.

http://www.bikewebsite.com/build.htm
Seem to remember that article per pitch referencing around 1/3 of the testile [?]

It seems to me that as I've grown older I've lost some of my testile strength.

The idea here is to get the rim running centered in the rear triangle between the stays. So the difference between drive and nondrive tensions sort of takes care of itself. i.e. ideally you would build a wheel with even tensions on both sides (front for example). The rear wheel on derailleur bikes is a compromise. Likewise the wheels on disc brake bikes are a compromise.

Get your rim centered using a dishing gauge or by flipping it repeatedly in your stand. Get your spokes tensioned as tightly as you can on both sides- short of rim failure- while still maintaining that centering.

You are then done, except for a little touch up here and there to the side to side true.

Most respectfully yours,
Mike Larmer


The difficult part of building a rear wheel is getting enough tension in the non-drive side spokes. Low tension spokes flex more and tend to break in the "J" bend at the hub flange. With multi-speed rear wheels the drive side flange has been displaced to make room for the cassette. This requires very high tension in the drive side spokes and much less tension in the non-drive side spokes. I usually gradually increase the drive side spoke tension to about 120 kgf. With the rim centered (dished) the non-drive side spokes may have only 55% - 60% as much tension as the DS spokes. With the tire and tube fully inflated I flip the wheel in the truing stand as many times as necessary to confirm that the rim is centered.

Thanks guys, I think you both confirmed what I was thinking. My rear wheel DS and the front disc side both have tensions close to 110 kgf, which is what I've read is what I should use with the XR-300 rims. But checking the NDS and non-disc spokes the tensions are much lower. The wheels are dished properly though, I used a dishing tool after every round of tensioning.

So if I get the correct tension on the DS or disc side and get the wheel properly dished the NDS and non-disc spoke tension pretty much takes care of itself, right? I mean, if they were severely under tensioned the dish of the wheel would be way off, correct?

"So if I get the correct tension on the DS or disc side and get the wheel properly dished the NDS and non-disc spoke tension pretty much takes care of itself, right? I mean, if they were severely under tensioned the dish of the wheel would be way off, correct?"

I'd be interested to know what readings your getting now per spoke tension on the NDS? Given you have the tool it appears to measure them as on the NS.

So if I get the correct tension on the DS or disc side and get the wheel properly dished the NDS and non-disc spoke tension pretty much takes care of itself, right? I mean, if they were severely under tensioned the dish of the wheel would be way off, correct?

Yessir. Exactly so.

You know how to convert (allowances for
spoke gauge, etc.) for whatever you're using
to read tension from your gauge reading to
actual tension, yes? With the Park tensiometer
(the one most mere mortals can afford) it
comes with a handy chart.

http://www.bikewebsite.com/build.htm

Came across this writeup.. trailing laced outside. I've always noted it was inside on other sites. Does this make any real difference?

Jobst Brandt addresses this in The Bicycle Wheel.
I kinda take him at his word because he knows more
than I do.


http://www.bikewebsite.com/build.htm
I tore down a 27" rim here and set that group onto a different rim as I prefer to use that rim in another build. This rebuilt rim had a fair hop to the roundness which I managed to minimize pretty well. Made me go for much higher tension than my first wheel.. which I used musical pitch to compare tension. Seem to remember that article per pitch referencing around 1/3 of the testile [?] strength of the spokes for tension. I'm much higher than that in this 2nd build.. and I went back and retensioned the first build to this higher tension. MUCH better feel overall... the NDS are much firmer. I might carry this one along when I go to the LBS midweek to pick up a parts order... get a spoke tension check.

Again, Brandt basically recommends that you tension
your wheel to the point of failure (the rim begins to
potato chip) and then loosen back up a half a turn
or so. Even though he knows more than I do, I lack
his courage and so usually stop before this point.:D

So if I get the correct tension on the DS or disc side and get the wheel properly dished the NDS and non-disc spoke tension pretty much takes care of itself, right? I mean, if they were severely under tensioned the dish of the wheel would be way off, correct?

No, sorry but that is not the case. You can have 110 kgf on the drive side, with rim centered and still have tension too low on the non-drive side rear. Check the tension on the non-drive side rear, then make a judgement call on how high to go on the drive side. If the tension is too low on the non-drive side you run the risk of breaking spokes in the "J" bend at the hub. This is why I usually go to about 120 kgf. It's up to you.

No, sorry but that is not the case. You can have 110 kgf on the drive side, with rim centered and still have tension too low on the non-drive side rear. Check the tension on the non-drive side rear, then make a judgement call on how high to go on the drive side. If the tension is too low on the non-drive side you run the risk of breaking spokes in the "J" bend at the hub. This is why I usually go to about 120 kgf. It's up to you.

Actually, this is the correct version, but due to my aforementioned
lack of courage, I was reluctant to tell you so. If it's of any interest,
in my experience you can always go somewhat higher than the
manufacturer's tension figures because they leave a considerable
margin for safety and liability.

A lot also depends on the weight of the rider and total load the
wheel wil carry. Heavier load = more flex at tensions below a
certain figure that is directly related to the load. It's complicated
to explain, but a lightweight can get away with lower spoke tensions
without experiencing fatigue failures.

Overall though, your lowest spoke tensions (non-drive) need to be
above the point at which your wheel will flex the spokes in your
particular application. Sorry it's not simpler, but it's just the way
it is. Note well that you cannot maintain dish centering and increase
the non drive tensions without also increasing the drive tensions.:twitchy:

I wrote Ian Smith from Sapin per the "superposition of stresses" on the spokes.. his reply.

"but what I'm trying to say is thatall the spokes have some initial tension in them, and that tension is
more than the compressive effects of the loading situation.So, when I talk about compressive spokes, I mean the effect of the load is to make the spoke more compressive (which is the same thing in terms of response as less tensile). That is, it's a change in spoke force in the compressive direction, but the spokes remain tensileoverall. Since they all remain in an elastic stress regime, then I can validly do the superposition and not worry about modelling the initial uniform preload.

That is, the spokes might all start out a uniform 500N (50kg). The load case I apply causes a maximum compression of 345N, which means the most 'compressive' spoke actually has a tension in it of 500-345=155N tension. The most tensile spoke has 22N effect in it, so its actual tension is 522N.

I hope that makes it clearer. The effect of the load is compressive,
but the spoke remains in tension." reply via Ian Smith from Sapin.

In my simple terms... the spoke is tensioned to a higher degree from the build than the compression of the weight onto the rim/spokes at the ground contact position. Spokes must always be pulling/stretched between the hub and rim... and never loose/slack enough to the point where rim to road contact relieves ALL of the spoke tension and that weight then compresses that spoke... which then means breakage. Lighter riders of course means less weight to relieve tension... the reason heavy riders require high spoke tension for a lasting wheel.

I told you it was complicated to explain.:D

I've only went thru the chapters that appeared to have some interest... mostly this book comes off for me as a DT commercial.

--The use of spoke washers... again a DT product. From my view.. the rationale isn't sound. His premise is the washer keeps the head centered when the spoke DE-tensions on the down positon when the rim makes ground contact. Hence said spoke head doesn't misalign when tension again pulls the spoke. Yet..... any high to decent tension build.. which he recommends... would not allow for a spoke to DE-tension to the point of being loose or compressed at that stage. AND.. what is the spoke head itself for.. decoration? He does make a point of setting spoke heads.. a key step for long durability. Leaves me wondering if some of the rims used were plastic holla-hoops.

--Soldering spoke crosses. Stated as a 30 minute job... say on a 32H that's less than 2 min per unit. Obviously he doesn't include the clean up time he prescribes... and viewing it as an extension of the flange diamenter.. leaves me..[?]. I think that is nonsense... maybe for a low tension build.

--"we professional wheelbuilders".. seemed to came across that phaze a few too many times. And.. I didn't by any means read this cover to cover.

Schraner's Spoking Method. Haven't studied it much.. I'll photocopy those 8 diagrams... maybe.. for future reference. This copy a interlibrary loan.. so glad I didn't buy this book.

--Soldering spoke crosses. Stated as a 30 minute job... say on a 32H that's less than 2 min per unit. Obviously he doesn't include the clean up time he prescribes... and viewing it as an extension of the flange diamenter.. leaves me..[?]. I think that is nonsense... maybe for a low tension build.


http://yarchive.net/bike/tying-and-soldering.html


it appears your BS meter is still working.:D

Another item to toss into the same folder.. the whole Schraner book. For the experience.. I tore down my old 'practice wheel' last eve and tried "schraner's spooking'. Just a clumsy way of doing a simple 3x the hard way... spoke threading with the other side fully laced is a PITA. The book in the end is primarily an income producing endeavor to capitalize on his prominence in the bike community. Some like books on the shelf.. I'll check to that... this a worthy decoration volume.

The Brandt book finally arrived yesterday. His explanations of wheel function is spot on.. yet I think many would buy such a book as a 'how to'. IMO the internet is a much better place to find clearer explainations of 'how to'.. lace.. etc. The computer analysis of wheel function is for math types...it the bedrock of his wheel myth's de-bunking.

Bandt's high tension lacing vs the rim strength. I have to revisit the issue.. my first take didn't set well. Sounds.... like it's a mite close to the edge.

HAD.. my first build tension checked. Whooosh.. DS is 255-270 for a string of 6-8.. this on the DT tool. NDS 215-230's.... this one built on a rear dropout. Dish too far NDS it seemed.. yet I believe the stand wasn't set for this particular spacing. My always very helpful LBS tech offered some insights from his past experiences and his generous time to check this build... great service.

Time to build a wheel building stand. For now I suspect my building output low volume.. recreational for myself moslty. And I have some ideas for a stand..........:crash:

And I have some ideas for a stand..........:crash:
:roflmao2:

Digging into the Brandt book in more detail.. page 80.. makes me [?]. Modified spoke angle for thin flanges............

There's a reference to one using a thumb to correct this angle somewhere. Q is... who's got thumbs like that? Hammering maybe... pliers more likey. Comes off like sounding as if contact with the flange surface is... what? How could flange contact me maintained on inbound spokes on many combinations?

Isn't in effect the idea to increase the spoke elbow bend.... then tensioning relaxes that bend.. more of a pre-stressing routine?

Then.. the method of bending that increased angle could well micro frac the steel.. to what extent depending on the method. Really only weakens that area in the long term [?].

Then.. the spoke head resting flush and solid in the flange angle.. once this new spoke bend angle is accomplished. Isn't one major concern with a good build the heads seating well?

For me.. the downwind side of this issue is a mite off.

Ok guys, thought I could list the tensions before and after mounting and pumping the tires and see what you guys think.
Edit: I tried and the formatting did not work. So I'll list the averages I guess.

Front Disc Side: 123 w/ air and tire: 98
Front Non Disc: 80.5 w/ air and tire: 62

The non disc side numbers seem low to me, but if I tighten them up the wheel won't be dished right.

Rear Drive Side: 125 w/ air and tire: 116
Rear non drive: 66 w/ air and tire: 59

After I mounted the tire on the rear I made some adjustments to the dish and trued it a bit more, so I think that's why the tensions show less of a drop then the front.

Should I adjust the front until the tension gets a little higher? What do you guys think?

Anybody?

Ok guys, thought I could list the tensions before and after mounting and pumping the tires and see what you guys think.
Edit: I tried and the formatting did not work. So I'll list the averages I guess.

Front Disc Side: 123 w/ air and tire: 98
Front Non Disc: 80.5 w/ air and tire: 62

The non disc side numbers seem low to me, but if I tighten them up the wheel won't be dished right.

Rear Drive Side: 125 w/ air and tire: 116
Rear non drive: 66 w/ air and tire: 59

After I mounted the tire on the rear I made some adjustments to the dish and trued it a bit more, so I think that's why the tensions show less of a drop then the front.

Should I adjust the front until the tension gets a little higher? What do you guys think?

Alan as one newbie to another.. I think your NDS readings are on the low side. If you reference the Park TM-1 Tension Meter Conversion Table (http://www.parktool.com/documents/ee5fb98f0f91e4f6be32f7b1e0b9f12b10a74bf0.pdf) PDF.. the lowest reading they show for tension in the mid 50's. I'd suspect a 59 reading on the rear will break spokes with weight loaded and some good raps from the road.

Idea....... could you take a reading on the NDS while your bike is loaded with about the same weight as yourself? I'd guess those NDS nearly compressive.. or slack.

Usually I read the NDS ratio to DS is around 60-65%... your barely past 50% it seems. You must have a wide dish on your wheels.

HANG in there guy... you'll get it right. :thumb::thumb: It's a learning process.... from you I've made the decision to get the Park tension meter. Thanks!

Hopefully more knowledgeable builders will weigh in on the tension ratio. If it were me.. I'd get the NDS's higher. Either by a minor compensation with the wheel more left.. or raise the DS readings too.