Long Distance Competition/Ultracycling, Randonneuring and Endurance Cycling - Fitters who understand long distance riding

I want to get a new frame, and I need some pre-purchase help with geometry targets.

'Twas wisely suggested to me (by Homeyba) that I go forth and seek me out a fitter who understands long distance riding, and get a set of contact point locations developed for me. I could then use that info to select a new (to me, at least) bike frame within which I will most likely find comfort and nirvana. So far, I'm pretty sure seat tube angle is really important for me.

Can anyone share the name and shop/business contact of any such fitter, with comments? Also please indicate if it is a person who sells bikes or who just will do work as a fitter.

I don't think there are reviews of rando-oriented bike fitters on Angie's List. Consider yourselves Angie.:)

I know of a couple really good ones but they are all on the west coast. Hopefully someone will come up with someone a little closer for you.

I am not sure how seat tube angle would be all that important unless you are really out of the norm.

Serotta bike fitters have a very good reputation. Usually costs about $200 and takes most of the afternoon. Of course they take the cost off the price if you buy a Serotta! They are all trained by Serotta, so not just LBS employees with a fit-kit.

I am not sure how seat tube angle would be all that important unless you are really out of the norm.

Maybe I am or maybe I'm not, but I can better position my saddle on my bikes that have a 73 or 72 degree angle than those with steeper tubes.

Homey, are any of your guys Serotta-trained?

Maybe I am or maybe I'm not, but I can better position my saddle on my bikes that have a 73 or 72 degree angle than those with steeper tubes.ok, the way you described it sounded like you thought you needed something really out of the ordinary. I wouldn't expect to see many randonneuring-appropriate bikes with a steeper seat tube angle than 73 degrees, unless you need a 48-50cm frame. Unfortunately, mid-sized stock bikes probably aren't going to come with a 72 degree seat tube angle. On the other hand, on a 58cm frame, the difference in top tube lengths between a 72 degree and a 73 degree seat tube angle is just a centimeter.

Homey, are any of your guys Serotta-trained?

I doubt it. I'm not sure what Serotta's philosophy regarding fit.

As far as a "randonneuring-appropriate" bike, goes, there is no such specific animal. A randonneuring-appropriate bike is the one that gets you to the finish as comfortably as possible. Doesn't matter if it's a Rivendale or a Colnago.

I know of a couple really good ones but they are all on the west coast. Hopefully someone will come up with someone a little closer for you.

These guys may be the best in the Midwest: http://www.getagripcycles.com/pressawards.html?page=string

They have won multiple awards, including Sorotta'a Top 5 Global Leader

I'm very happy with the fitting services they have provided me. Get a Grip has helped me with four bikes and each bike is very comfortable.

+1

a few hours drive to chicago from ann arbour, but get a grip is well worth it. They are great at fitting for touring, so it only follows that they can fit for long distance rando riding. expect to pay about $325.

I doubt it. I'm not sure what Serotta's philosophy regarding fit.

As far as a "randonneuring-appropriate" bike, goes, there is no such specific animal. A randonneuring-appropriate bike is the one that gets you to the finish as comfortably as possible. Doesn't matter if it's a Rivendale or a Colnago.

We have some Serotta-trained folks here locally. What are the philosophies of fit that your faves have?

+1

a few hours drive to chicago from ann arbour, but get a grip is well worth it. They are great at fitting for touring, so it only follows that they can fit for long distance rando riding. expect to pay about $325.

Thanks, Time Travel!

I die a little inside when these threads come up. There's no magic in bike fit, and any experienced cyclist should be capable of doing it himself. But I suspect that people are less interested in learning the technical side of bike fit and are really just looking for the emotional benefit of having a "guru" pronounce his bicycle perfect. Grump, grump.

Oh, and for $325 we've moved beyond tea leaves and chicken bones and are into goat sacrifice territory at least.

Oh, and for $325 we've moved beyond tea leaves and chicken bones and are into goat sacrifice territory at least.

Ouch $325. I can't imagine they could tell me anything that be remotely worth that price tag. I once got a fit locally and felt it wasn't worth the $100 I paid for it.

I die a little inside when these threads come up. There's no magic in bike fit, and any experienced cyclist should be capable of doing it himself. But I suspect that people are less interested in learning the technical side of bike fit and are really just looking for the emotional benefit of having a "guru" pronounce his bicycle perfect. Grump, grump.

Oh, and for $325 we've moved beyond tea leaves and chicken bones and are into goat sacrifice territory at least.

Most of the folks paying for the service get most of it back when buying a new bike. And, believe it or not, most do not care. They want a bike that will take them to the next level of performance, and they don't tolerate fools. These are not the DIY BD type clientele.

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll210/wildcat-bucket/adam_fit.jpg

The service is also a one time cost. They will adjust any bike purchased from any source for a lifetime. I have yet to buy a bike from Get A Grip, yet they have fitted me to four bikes. The first fitting was a three hour session. The additional fittings needed about one to two hours. These sessions are included with the initial fee. Also, if I ever buy a custom bike, they will consult with the frame-builder to optimize geometry and tube-set.

Michael

Is that you on the bike in the picture, Michael? It's a perfect opportunity to illustrate a glaring deficiency with "bike fitting" and the whole attitude about "buying performance". The trouble, with the rider above, is that the bike is essentially fine. I mean you can argue and fiddle, raising the seat a couple of mm or bringing the bars back a hair, but it all amounts to rearranging the deck chairs. The rider isn't sitting on the bike correctly and no amount of twiddling with the bike is going to fix that.

Whoever that rider is, he needs to rotate his pelvis around so that his lumbar spine exits the pelvis in a straighter line, flattening his back all the way up to the shoulders. The way he sits right now is squishing his gut, preventing proper digestion on longer rides and promoting gas and nausea. It also forces his diaphragm into his thoracic cavity, preventing good full-lung breathing. And it tends to make the shoulders hunch and tense, leading to neck and shoulder pain. Additionally, his wrists are cocked inward, which forces his elbows out. This isn't good for comfort, aerodynamics, or bike handling.

None of that can be addressed by adjusting the bicycle, but too many people are convinced that if they just spend enough money and find the right guru, they can pedal off into the sunset looking just like their favorite Tour rider. Twenty or thirty years ago, an experienced bike shop employee would have pointed these things out for free. Now we pay hundreds of dollars to self-anointed "experts" who will pointlessly fool with our bicycles and then pronounce everything fine, while ignoring the rider's glaring deficiencies entirely.

Arg.

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Arg.

</rant>



Your version, or as you say: "rant" has no merit.

Why?

A) That is not me
B) That is not a bicycle

Yet you have no hesitation providing fitting advice over the web to someone you have never met or seen. Anyone who really understood bike fit would never make that mistake.

I suspect that most people would be better off following Peter White's fitting procedure before they spend a lot of money on a pro fitter.

Or accept fitting advise on the web, from a person who could be anyone or, more accurately, is probably no-one. That will really improve your cycling (rolling eyes).

Good rant. When I went to buy a new bike, the LBS had a guy who put me on a trainer, changed stems and adjusted heights. He then adjusted something about my back and voila, the weight was off my hands. 15 minutes, free, and I still don't completely understand it. That was 12 years ago and that's still my position. Now when I change something on my bike, I fiddle until I get the right feeling again. Just measuring doesn't quite do it. It's also about the position of your body, how your hands interact with what you touch, and how your butt interacts with the saddle and your feet with your shoes and pedals.

It can be subtle, and then someone who knows has to help you. I have a number of very experienced friends who were having troubles. Their problems were completely solved by our famous local physiologist/bike fitter. All different problems, different solutions.

On the third hand, I've been to a couple other bike shops who measured me and attempted to prescribe the three points. Not even close. Centimeters off.

I have been told I am a really decent bike fitter and this just stems from a lot of experience in the shop and as a rider and I have a good understanding of physiology and bio-mechanics.

I could take all your measurements and put those into a calculator and I'd probably be way off but can use some of that to determine a base, use your feedback, and really make close observations when you are riding to determine what needs to be changed to improve your riding experience.

I prefer to watch people ride real bikes as I can then see how they adjust to different inputs rather than use a static bicycle / trainer as riding is not a static activity... and sometimes the smallest change will yield amazing improvements.

My friend was having a lot of issues with his new touring bike fit and he is planning on riding around the world... since we ride together a lot I have had lots of opportunity to make observations and suggest changes to his set up and now his bike is dialed in so well he could live on it.

For some reason the bike shop set things up far too aggressively (he has lower back issues), had his saddle position wrong, and did not give him any help when it came to setting up his cleat position on his shoes (which are new to him)... when you spend $2500.00 on a bike you expect that it should be comfortable and not a torture device.

Your version, or as you say: "rant" has no merit.

Why?

A) That is not me
B) That is not a bicycle

Yet you have no hesitation providing fitting advice over the web to someone you have never met or seen. Anyone who really understood bike fit would never make that mistake.

Doesn't matter who it is, and I'm not going to split hairs about bicycle-like objects. Nor does it matter that I've never met him. Frankly, I think you've been sold a pile of BS, to believe that someone who "really" understands bike fit needs hundreds of dollars and several hours to diagnose patently obvious faults in a rider's form.

Doesn't matter who it is, and I'm not going to split hairs about bicycle-like objects. Nor does it matter that I've never met him. Frankly, I think you've been sold a pile of BS, to believe that someone who "really" understands bike fit needs hundreds of dollars and several hours to diagnose patently obvious faults in a rider's form.

Are you enjoying these personal attacks!

Easy to do when hiding behind a computer screen.

Is that you on the bike in the picture, Michael? It's a perfect opportunity to illustrate a glaring deficiency with "bike fitting" and the whole attitude about "buying performance". The trouble, with the rider above, is that the bike is essentially fine. I mean you can argue and fiddle, raising the seat a couple of mm or bringing the bars back a hair, but it all amounts to rearranging the deck chairs. The rider isn't sitting on the bike correctly and no amount of twiddling with the bike is going to fix that.

Whoever that rider is, he needs to rotate his pelvis around so that his lumbar spine exits the pelvis in a straighter line, flattening his back all the way up to the shoulders. The way he sits right now is squishing his gut, preventing proper digestion on longer rides and promoting gas and nausea. It also forces his diaphragm into his thoracic cavity, preventing good full-lung breathing. And it tends to make the shoulders hunch and tense, leading to neck and shoulder pain. Additionally, his wrists are cocked inward, which forces his elbows out. This isn't good for comfort, aerodynamics, or bike handling.

None of that can be addressed by adjusting the bicycle, but too many people are convinced that if they just spend enough money and find the right guru, they can pedal off into the sunset looking just like their favorite Tour rider. Twenty or thirty years ago, an experienced bike shop employee would have pointed these things out for free. Now we pay hundreds of dollars to self-anointed "experts" who will pointlessly fool with our bicycles and then pronounce everything fine, while ignoring the rider's glaring deficiencies entirely.

Arg.

</rant>


As the OP, I can say I am not looking for any self-annointed experts. As many may have noticed, I already am one. I'm interested in finding who some experienced distance riders think are experts, and see if any are in a convenient radius. I could then evaluate what they offer.

I've generally done pretty well in self-fitting (IMO), but if I can get an excellent fit early in teh season and use it as a base of development, more power to me. I'm hoping to pleasurably complete some difficult rides this year.

I'm expecting to have a new bike by April or so, to train on, do some long day rides, and to do a 6-day supported tour. It would be great to waste a minimum amount of time letting perineal chafing heal before continuing on my development schedule, starting with the beginning of the season. If I'm gonna self-fit an off the peg frame, fine, but it needs to have dimensions that are fittable: adequate seatpost angle, and a TT length within which I can set cockpit. Some other nice things, like toe overlap, fenders, blah blah blah. I have a pretty decent idea of what those bounds should be, but it's not a cheap purchase, I don't want to redo it three times this year, and I think for these rides it needs to be right.

I rarely have pains due to body positioning. My back/pelvis, arms, wrists, and hands usually take on a pretty good position, and maintain natural angles. I've experienced how better core strength and flexibility can lead to better saddle-sitting and pedaling. I still can end up in perineal trouble, which is literally a big PITA.

So I am seriously looking for experts to talk to or visit to evaluate, not to be told how to fit a bike. I've read and applied a lot of the more sensible on-line and published stuff (like Andy Pruitt, Arnie Baker, Peter White, and Lennard Zinn), but I can still get into trouble. I was fit very well once by a USCF-trained tri expert who could go beyond tri fits, but I've changed since then. Sadly, he's no longer in the trade.

We have a lot of local shops and fitters with various gadgets and computer programs, and complete notebooks of "how to select the right Brand T or G frame for your eager Brand T or G road customer," but what they say doesn't feel like the complete approach. So I'm asking for new experts.

So Barrett and Six Jours, please chill. Threads take on a life of their own, and can diverge from the topic. I still want to learn more of what I asked originally, and have always had respect for both of your viewpoints, insights and opinions.

Barrett, thanks for the reference to Adam at Gaspipe. It's good to know about him, but I'm not sure driving to Chicago (250 mi one way) is the best solution. I will speak to him and see what I can learn. Six Jours, it's good to have your reinforcement that body positioning is essential whatever set of contact point locations is determined and how they're implemented.

As someone said, engaging a fitter for more than one session can be a really good thing, since contact location needs can evolve as the rider rides more. Plus, who really only needs one bike to remain set up in proper position?

Homeyba indicated there are some fitting philosophies he prefers, and have presumably been successful for him in his history of long riding. As an aspiring long distance rider, I want to know what the good riders know. Last year I went from a few 20 to 40 milers to a handful of metrics and part of a long tour. This year I plan to do much more, with some metrics and centuries as part of training for a 6-day tour, essentially 6 metrics on 6 consecutive days. Maybe the autumn will bring a 200k first brevet. I got a lot of saddle time coming up.

I'm convinced by personal experience that bike fitting is the difference between enjoying cycling and dropping out of the activity.

As a teenager working at George Garner Cyclery in Northbrook, I worked with Ronald R. Boi, who is one of Chicago's leading frame-builders and provides a wide range of services at RRB Cycles, Ltd. Ron has been in the business about forty years.

George Garner also had high standards, and the operation has been respected in the industry for more than 50 years.

I must have good luck with people in this industry. Working with Get-a-grip cycling has allowed me to ride a wide range of bikes in comfort over great distances. Even the 1973 Schwinn Paramount that I purchased as a teenager fits better today than it did back in the day.

I was very surprised when after lengthy discussions, that Adam of Get-a-Grip suggested a size 60 CX bike, The bike had a 603mm VTT. I’m only 5’11”.

Yet the bike was transformative. I put 5000 miles on that bike in the first year.

Most fit runners and other athletes I know have had many fit problems and tried cycling, but gave it up. I know that a bike that fit would have made a difference.

I found a lot of benefit from my first fitting, a big step back wards in my second, and have learned in what direction to make most of my own adjustments based on how it feels. I want a fitter, but only a good one.

How well does Ron Boi do with fittings? He did some fork and frame work for me that was excellent.

I die a little inside when these threads come up. There's no magic in bike fit, and any experienced cyclist should be capable of doing it himself. ...

I think your lack of long distance riding experience is showing here. If we were talking centuries and less or maybe even double centuries then sure most of us could fit ourselves. 90% of use can muddle through a century with a poorly fitted bike. Some of us who are experienced enough can definitely fit ourselves as well. But, all you have to do is hang out on a 1200k and see all the people who thought they were fitted properly. You'll see why I advocate being fitted by someone who understands long distance cycling. Right behind nutrition, injuries caused by poor fit are the biggest cause of DNFs. Those little nagging problems (numb fingers, numb toes, sore back, sore arms, sore butt, the list goes on) that you ride through on a century become ride enders on longer rides. I know people who had numb fingers for 6 months after a 1200k because they thought they were fitted properly prior to the ride. Fitted properly, you should be able to complete a 1200k pain free. Why would you invest all that time and money to do a 1200k without doing doing everything you can prior to the event to ensure your success?
Fitters who understand the long distance cyclist are not very common but they are worth the time and money if they avoid a DNF. I'll guarantee that you'll waste more than $150+/- bucks if you have to DNF a 1200k because of a fit related issue.

Of course without a controlled study, we'll never know if the people who got sore or numb on long rides did so because of fit problems or because they were just not sufficiently trained for and accustomed to riding that distance and tried to bite off more than they could chew.

I'm curious about the differences in fit you would expect to see for recreational long distance cycling compared to, say, the fit one would find amongst a typical stage racing population. And is the difference in bike fit really because of the distance involved in ultracyling/randonneuring/etc. or because of the general body composition and age of the participants?

For example, would you really take the bike fit of someone who just raced 3600km in the TdF and alter it in some way for it to be better suited for the same rider to join your local brevet?

An interesting note re. pro racers... Years ago, only the stars had replacement bikes waiting on the roof racks. The average pro, if he needed a spare bike during a race, would have to take a generic one from his team car. Something approximately his size, with seat height roughly adjusted on the fly by a mechanic leaning out of the car window. The interesting thing was that even on an obviously ill-fitting bike, the rider would invariably still look perfect. The lesson, of course, is that how the rider relates to the bike is a lot more important than how the bike fits the rider, at least when we are talking in modern fit guru terms of a millimeter here and a millimeter there.

What I notice today, with recreational rando/LD riders, is the exact opposite: they tend to look awful on their bikes no matter how they're set up. It's in that light that I critique the modern practice of "bike fitting". There's probably no harm in spending one's excess cash on it, but it is a picture-perfect example of putting the cart before the horse.

Six jours, I think I share your view that (if I may paraphrase) there is a fititng industry that is delivering disservice, fitting most customers incorrectly and not correcting problems that they have.

But I think there is still value to having my fit assessed and adjusted with input from a person who has different eyes than I do, and can evaluate my appearance and feedback from a perhaps more informed perspective. Homey is trying to tell us how to identify such a rare person, and I'm trying to understand his idea so that I can try to apply it.

I don't know if millimeters will be important, save that sometimes for me, they are. But that's not the point. The point is I'd like to find someone who can see me with more experienced eyes.

I found a lot of benefit from my first fitting, a big step back wards in my second, and have learned in what direction to make most of my own adjustments based on how it feels. I want a fitter, but only a good one.

How well does Ron Boi do with fittings? He did some fork and frame work for me that was excellent.

Hi Road Fan,

I have not been in contact with Ron, or even been in his shop in many, many years. My recommendation for Get a Grip is based on recent personal experience and first hand accounts of locals who have used them.

I would ask Ron, I'm sure he is a wealth of information. If he does not provide a service, he might expand your search and point out qualified people. He may even know someone in Michigan.

I’ve been reading several of Six Jours posts, come to your own conclusion, but I smell a Troll.

As far as I know, you can not prevent nerve damage in your feet or hands by training. Sit around at the end of a 1200k and ask how many people have numb hands or feet. Do that enough and it can become permanent. Sore muscles are fixed with training. Lower back pain can be fit or training depending on what is going on. If you were fitted by a TDF trainer I would bet my bottom dollar that you'd be one hurting puppy by 600kms into a 1200k. The typical TDF rider is sitting on his bike for 200+/-kms a day. Between 4.5 and 8hrs depending on the difficulty of the stage. The typical 1200k rider is riding 300-400kms per day (for 3 1/2days)and sitting on his bike between 16 and 24hrs at a time. I think the average randoneur sleeps less that 6hrs a night and many a lot less. You're comparing apples to oranges.
If you go into your average bike shop and ask for a fit, you are most likely to get some form of "race" fit. I am totally in Six Jours camp on this. Most people are sold a bill of goods and it probably won’t help you with your long distance riding. Good long distance fitters are very hard to find. A good fitter isn’t just going to measure you and tell you something based on that. They’ll have you on a fit bike and spend the appropriate amount of time with you (and they'll guarantee their work). My fitter didn’t even get a tape measure out. Most importantly they need to understand the dynamics of long distance riding and the relationship you have to have with your bike. Everything on the bike is interrelated and moving one thing can upset something else. For the long distance rider, what you look like on the bike comes a very distant second to how comfortable you are.

I’ve been reading several of Six Jours posts, come to your own conclusion, but I smell a Troll.

Perhaps you should take a step back and ask yourself why you're so emotionally invested in the topic. Your reactions (to what are fairly inconsequential opinions, in the grand scheme) have hardly been rational.

Regardless, I think I've said what I wanted to on the topic, and I apologize to the OP for taking his thread off track. I hope he finds what he needs - and I hope he doesn't get taken advantage of.