Living Car Free - Holidays Pain at the gas pump

Well here is just another reason to get around on your bicycle.
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/pain-pump-12363099

I feel sorry for all the people that have to use their car for transportation:(
Just in time for the Holidays:eek: I wonder how that happened.:rolleyes:
I am retired and am car Lite and really feel for those you have to use the car.:(
I very seldom use my car and love getting around with the bicycle.:thumb:

Yes but this happens all the time. Price spikes sharply. People react. Price goes down, the climbs slowly so that they don't even notice.

In reality, most people should find gas at 3 or 4 dollars a gallon pretty reasonable. It's a lot cheaper than just about anywhere else in the known universe.

Although, every time we do have a spike or even a price milestone ($3...), more people take to their bicycles.

Yes but this happens all the time. Price spikes sharply. People react. Price goes down, the climbs slowly so that they don't even notice.

In reality, most people should find gas at 3 or 4 dollars a gallon pretty reasonable. It's a lot cheaper than just about anywhere else in the known universe.



Although, every time we do have a spike or even a price milestone ($3...), more people take to their bicycles.

Yeah but maybe this time they will stay with their bicycle.:) and or go with mass transit.

Yeah but maybe this time they will stay with their bicycle.:) and or go with mass transit.

I believe it will take more than $3 a gallon. Unfortunately I suspect most people will bankrupt themselves before they will go away from the car in droves. Also unfortunately a sizable portion of the country doesn't have working mass transit. Once you leave most major cities (with the possible exception of some college towns) mass transit ceases to exist in any usable form.

Aaron :)

Pasadena mother: "It's rough you know, but we just kind of base our budget around gas. We just need to get gas first and deal with everything else later."
:eek::eek::eek:

Pasadena mother: "It's rough you know, but we just kind of base our budget around gas. We just need to get gas first and deal with everything else later."
:eek::eek::eek:

That is one of the saddest things I have read this week. The NY Times had an article about gasoline prices today that said Americans will spend nearly 25% more on gasoline this month than during December, 2009. I found that to be amazing considering the core rate of inflation is near zero.

Oh well. No addiction is ever easy to get clean of.

That is one of the saddest things I have read this week. The NY Times had an article about gasoline prices today that said Americans will spend nearly 25% more on gasoline this month than during December, 2009. I found that to be amazing considering the core rate of inflation is near zero.

Oh well. No addiction is ever easy to get clean of.


I wonder about that? Gas is up about 32.5 cents a gallon over last year, that is roughly a 12% increase. Not sure where they are getting their 25% figure from. But price swings are part of the peak oil scenario and unfortunately in many households in America gas is a major expense. Every time gas goes up past a certain point that is money that is removed from the regular economy. In our family we are more fortunate than most, my fuel costs are covered by my employer (but they ***** constantly about fuel costs and fuel economy) my wife drives 130 miles one way to work, but only makes the round trip 4-5 times a month, and doesn't always have to drive.

If oil continues to rise, we will see a dip in the economic "recovery", airlines will take another hit as will quite a few other businesses that are fuel dependent. But again this is what peak oil looks like.

Aaron :)

If oil continues to rise, we will see a dip in the economic "recovery", airlines will take another hit as will quite a few other businesses that are fuel dependent. But again this is what peak oil looks like.

Aaron :)

Yes, and that's why most countries would sit down and devise a 5 and 10 year plan to at least try to deal with the fact that money spent on oil is virtually immediately sent out of the country and , according to some Wikileaks messages last week, almost certainly goes... indirectly... very indirectly... to pay for the terrorist activity we see throughout the Middle East and for which we already have spent a mountain of money trying to defeat.

Of course, that's unlikely to happen when Mobil Oil is a major contributor to your election campaign.

If oil continues to rise, we will see a dip in the economic "recovery", airlines will take another hit as will quite a few other businesses that are fuel dependent. But again this is what peak oil looks like.

Aaron :)

I don't know if it's peak oil because OPEC cut production by 4.2 million barrels a day since 2009! To make matters worse, the Federal Reserve printed 600 billion dollars in order to create inflation, hoping to help our exports! The result of this is causing commodities to skyrocket and the dollar to fall. Our imported gas is going to get a lot more expensive in the very near future.



http://www.bnet.com/blog/clean-energy/why-opec-will-have-to-cut-oil-production-in-2010/1028
http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/economy/markets-mainmenu-45/5093-commodities-skyrocket-after-federal-reserve-announces-600-billion-in-more-inflation

I don't know if it's peak oil because OPEC cut production by 4.2 million barrels a day since 2009! To make matters worse, the Federal Reserve printed 600 billion dollars in order to create inflation, hoping to help our exports! The result of this is causing commodities to skyrocket and the dollar to fall. Our imported gas is going to get a lot more expensive in the very near future.



http://www.bnet.com/blog/clean-energy/why-opec-will-have-to-cut-oil-production-in-2010/1028
http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/economy/markets-mainmenu-45/5093-commodities-skyrocket-after-federal-reserve-announces-600-billion-in-more-inflation

Did they cut oil production or can they not meet production? No one really knows how much oil the Saudi's really have, nor what their true production rates are.

I am sure the federal reserve actions aren't helping. But all we can do as individuals is prepare for the worst, be flexible and hope for the best. There is so much manipulations of markets going on right now that I doubt anybody really has a clue as to what is going to happen next.

Aaron :)

Last weekend was the first time in months ive even looked at gas prices, was with g/f when she filled up her car i hadn't realized it has crept back up to 3bucks again.

Last weekend was the first time in months ive even looked at gas prices, was with g/f when she filled up her car i hadn't realized it has crept back up to 3bucks again.

Yeah went by the Sunoco yesterday and $3.00 a gallon here for regular.:( WOW!!

It's funny when you consider oil and coal didn't have much use 200 years ago and now people die over it. I know plenty of people who value their car over their loved ones.

Even when i had a car and drove the price of gas never bothered me, the only thing that has gotten to me, was two years ago or so when we had that first skyrocket in prices, is why the hell is diesel more a gallon than gasoline. I mean really for the most part diesel is almost a byproduct of refining gas, never made sense to me. I was working at kenworth dealership and as soon as diesel went above 4bucks a gallon (in boise idaho) our business literally fell off a cliff. My G/F gets mad at me sometimes when i tease her about, she came home yesterday whining about how much it cost to fill up her little kia i just smiled and said "that sucks" and i guess that was not the wise thing to say.:)

Paid $3.17 for diesel today, still more expensive than gasoline. Good thing you can run it off veggie oil if wanted.....

Paid $3.17 for diesel today, still more expensive than gasoline. Good thing you can run it off veggie oil if wanted.....
Technically if you wanted you can run most diesels off water, but it wont last very long at all:)

Technically if you wanted you can run most diesels off water, but it wont last very long at all:)

When the price of water goes North of $3 a gallon, I predict things will really start to go downhill. :)

I was wondering what happened to all the electric cars that were to enter the market? Did the sticker price make them only concept cars?

Here in Miami, Diesel has hit from 3.20-3.30 /gal in my neighborhood. Having owned Diesel Engined Cars for the last decade, I often wonder about that Price Disparity also(considering how much cheaper it is to make the Gasoline). A year ago, Diesel was priced equal with UL Regular, then I noticed it creeping up and now its priced equal with Supreme UL. Or even a few pennies more! Crazy. Thank God I don't fill my VW Diesel up often.

I think the focus on the price of gas is too sharp. People should think twice, 3 or 4 times, about the total cost of owning an auto. At $3 a galllon, and a meager 20 mpg, gas is 'only' 15 cents a mile. But, the IRS says it's more like 50 cents a mile, all costs considered.

It's that total cost that puts the poor in 'working poor'. If they could only set a budget on paper, with the assumption that a car is an option and not a necessity, they would quickly come to the conclusion that owning a car is a very bad choice for many if not most.

At 1000 miles a month, the total cost is roughly $500 a month. What kind of a life changer is that sum for the working poor, who may not even have that much discretionary spending money (with a clunker in the mix)? That money could get them out of an apartment and into a starter home, or fund a decent retirement, a college education for their kids or themselves, help them to start a small business, make a worthwhile and impactful donation to charity...

Greetings from Ireland.

If it will make you guys feel any better I've been checking on the cheapest diesel price in Dublin.

We have our prices listed in Litres. 1 litre = approx. 0.22 gals.

Currently the cheapest price in Dublin as of 15th Dec. is €1.329 per litre.

After doing my calculations into gallons and into US$ I got an equivalent price of roughly $8 dollars per gallon.
Petrol/gasoline is taxed slighly more so is slightly more expensive.

Note: Fuel prices in Ireland are not expensive by european standards.

Happy holidays.

I think the focus on the price of gas is too sharp. People should think twice, 3 or 4 times, about the total cost of owning an auto. At $3 a galllon, and a meager 20 mpg, gas is 'only' 15 cents a mile. But, the IRS says it's more like 50 cents a mile, all costs considered.

It's that total cost that puts the poor in 'working poor'. If they could only set a budget on paper, with the assumption that a car is an option and not a necessity, they would quickly come to the conclusion that owning a car is a very bad choice for many if not most.

At 1000 miles a month, the total cost is roughly $500 a month. What kind of a life changer is that sum for the working poor, who may not even have that much discretionary spending money (with a clunker in the mix)? That money could get them out of an apartment and into a starter home, or fund a decent retirement, a college education for their kids or themselves, help them to start a small business, make a worthwhile and impactful donation to charity...

And that's not even accounting for externalized costs. The price of owning/operating automobiles also includes contributing heavily to localized air pollution, decreasing everyone else's safety, decreasing crop yields, contributing to water pollution, infrastructure damage, noise pollution, and cancer rates, and playing a role in creating in urban sprawl & global warming.

Gas (in the US) has never before been as high as $3/gallon in the month of December. There ae concerns that this will stall economic recovery, as some consumers will be forced to cut back holiday spending in order to pay for gas.

The news pundits say the main reason for high gas prices is that a refinery in Nova Scotia is out of service. Does anybody else find that hard to believe?

I think the focus on the price of gas is too sharp. People should think twice, 3 or 4 times, about the total cost of owning an auto. At $3 a galllon, and a meager 20 mpg, gas is 'only' 15 cents a mile. But, the IRS says it's more like 50 cents a mile, all costs considered.


This is still only scratching the surface - now count in the high cost of roads and roadway maintenance, the fact that in most of our cities 50% of the developed property is devoted to the automobile (parking, roads etc), the health costs from the pollution that is belched out, the cost of 40,000 lives in the US each year (americans don't care about any other deaths, only americans count). All in all, we are paying a huge toll for our dependence on oil of which $3 per gallon isn't even enough for a down payment.

The news pundits say the main reason for high gas prices is that a refinery in Nova Scotia is out of service. Does anybody else find that hard to believe?

I couldn't find anything to verify this, but I did read that gasoline futures are down this week as demand has dropped a bit and stockpiles are up.

Luckily for the carfree, this kind of talk is academic. It really doesn't affect us that much. We just feel sorry for everyone else on the road.

I believe it will take more than $3 a gallon. Unfortunately I suspect most people will bankrupt themselves before they will go away from the car in droves. Also unfortunately a sizable portion of the country doesn't have working mass transit. Once you leave most major cities (with the possible exception of some college towns) mass transit ceases to exist in any usable form.

Aaron :)

I kind of wonder about what happens in some areas if driving becomes untenable. I have relatives in Nebraska. That state has always had a low population, but recently, outside of the biggest cities, the working-age population has largely disappeared. Many small towns that used to have thriving downtowns no longer have them. Local businesses have shut down, and in some cases people have to drive 30 miles just to buy groceries. Of course, if no one can drive to the Walmart two towns over, local businesses will probably reappear, but the transition might be painful...

On the other hand, if we ever reach a point where buying fuel for cars becomes too expensive for most people, I imagine that economic activity in general will pretty much grind to a halt anyway...

I kind of wonder about what happens in some areas if driving becomes untenable. I have relatives in Nebraska. That state has always had a low population, but recently, outside of the biggest cities, the working-age population has largely disappeared. Many small towns that used to have thriving downtowns no longer have them. Local businesses have shut down, and in some cases people have to drive 30 miles just to buy groceries. Of course, if no one can drive to the Walmart two towns over, local businesses will probably reappear, but the transition might be painful...

On the other hand, if we ever reach a point where buying fuel for cars becomes too expensive for most people, I imagine that economic activity in general will pretty much grind to a halt anyway...

Unfortunately that seems to be where it is headed, the past decade or so the GDP has been based on consumerism. Which as far as I can tell is non sustainable. People have to have a job and money to buy something. And if we aren't manufacturing things, people aren't working. The necessities are what helps to bring us back out of a recession, things like clothing, pots and pans and other small consumables. Unfortunately most of those items are made in other countries and the pittance that is made in profit selling those items doesn't generate much income where it counts.

Aaron :)

Luckily for the carfree, this kind of talk is academic. It really doesn't affect us that much. We just feel sorry for everyone else on the road.

It depends. The cost of services, goods and groceries will go up, transit fares will go up, etc. And the bad part is that they will remain high even if gas prices eventually drop :(

It depends. The cost of services, goods and groceries will go up, transit fares will go up, etc. And the bad part is that they will remain high even if gas prices eventually drop :(

Not only that, but how many of us car-free folks will lose our jobs in the days to come as our leaders refuse to face reality and make the investments that are needed to move our economies away from their dependence on fossil fuels? A case in point:

Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood announced Thursday that $1.2 billion in federal high-speed rail funds allocated to Wisconsin and Ohio would be rerouted to other states. Wisconsin and Ohio elected Republican governors who oppose high-speed rail and have asked to spend the funds instead on highway projects.


http://articles.sfgate.com/2010-12-10/bay-area/25184776_1_high-speed-rail-authority-purchase-rail-federal-railroad-officials

Ha Ha:lol: ... Oh :rolleyes: My wife still drives a car:crash:

Pasadena mother: "It's rough you know, but we just kind of base our budget around gas. We just need to get gas first and deal with everything else later."
:eek::eek::eek:

That remark caught me off guard as well. That woman's family must have one serious commute distance or land yacht, this is not the case at our household, and our gasoline prices have been over 3 dollars a gallon for well over a year now. (currently $3.50)

If our gasoline price is translated into U.S. dollars for a U.S. gallon, it would be $4.25. The teenage son of a friend of mine says he doesn't care too much about his vehicle's fuel economy or the price of gas, because he won't change his driving habits all that much. After he graduates and when he's living on his own, I think his tune's going to change.

It really doesn't affect us that much. We just feel sorry for everyone else on the road.

Sorry and --I will admit it-- a little smug.

:D

...
On the other hand, if we ever reach a point where buying fuel for cars becomes too expensive for most people, I imagine that economic activity in general will pretty much grind to a halt anyway...

It is not beyond imagination what kind of lifestyles become necessary when living remotely without autos are: homesteading! Surprisingly, if you're interesting in the grass-roots groundswell of nutrition interest that I'm perceiving these days, living car-lite/free and forgoing processed food and grains and making all your own food meshes. It's close to that way with me: we have gluten, dairy and and blood sugar issues in our family, we need a lifestyle of basic natural foods and exercise. Living near downtown is convenient, but living farther than the 'burbs and weighing gas money v. groceries in the face of food sensitivity, obesity, high blood pressure, diabetes and becomes very confronting and increasingly common. A key part is exercise, another necessity is basic food preparation and the personal security of making food from scratch.

Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood announced Thursday that $1.2 billion in federal high-speed rail funds allocated to Wisconsin and Ohio would be rerouted to other states. Wisconsin and Ohio elected Republican governors who oppose high-speed rail and have asked to spend the funds instead on highway projects.
http://articles.sfgate.com/2010-12-10/bay-area/25184776_1_high-speed-rail-authority-purchase-rail-federal-railroad-officials

Interesting.

Wisconsin and Ohio walked away from hundreds of millions just like New Jersey did this year. In fact, we owe the Federal Government over 300 million for a hole that was never completed!

I have news for Wisconsin and Ohio, all those manufacturing jobs they lost are not coming back. They should have taken the money to create jobs period since our economy is not coming back for another 5 - 7 years or more!

Interesting.

Wisconsin and Ohio walked away from hundreds of millions just like New Jersey did this year. In fact, we owe the Federal Government over 300 million for a hole that was never completed!

I have news for Wisconsin and Ohio, all those manufacturing jobs they lost are not coming back. They should have taken the money to create jobs period since our economy is not coming back for another 5 - 7 years or more!

I agree but I am wondering if the money is too little too late? The money for mass transit should have been spent towards infrastructure years ago.

Aaron :)

Interesting.

Wisconsin and Ohio walked away from hundreds of millions just like New Jersey did this year. In fact, we owe the Federal Government over 300 million for a hole that was never completed!

I have news for Wisconsin and Ohio, all those manufacturing jobs they lost are not coming back. They should have taken the money to create jobs period since our economy is not coming back for another 5 - 7 years or more!

Meanwhile, here in Spain, King Juan Carlos and Queen Sofia on have just inaugurated (http://www.monstersandcritics.com/news/business/news/article_1606568.php/Spain-adds-to-its-high-speed-rail-network-Roundup)a new line in this country's high-speed rail network, which is being billed as the most advanced in Europe.

I agree but I am wondering if the money is too little too late? The money for mass transit should have been spent towards infrastructure years ago.

Aaron :)

+1 I agree

I kind of wonder about what happens in some areas if driving becomes untenable. I have relatives in Nebraska. That state has always had a low population, but recently, outside of the biggest cities, the working-age population has largely disappeared. Many small towns that used to have thriving downtowns no longer have them. Local businesses have shut down, and in some cases people have to drive 30 miles just to buy groceries. Of course, if no one can drive to the Walmart two towns over, local businesses will probably reappear, but the transition might be painful...
What you're describing has also happened on the Canadian prairies. In an earlier era, there were many small towns which each had their own unique character and vibrancy. But then farms expanded to the point where one farmer today can work the land many would have farmed a few decades ago. A lot of the small towns have become nothing more than a grain elevator and a gas station. Eventually, even these services will vanish.

The farmers travel longer distances to get their supplies, but the non-farm residents simply have been packing up and moving to cities and larger towns where some opportunities exist. In other words, it's not just the businesses that are shutting down; whole towns or villages are dying.

Meanwhile, in other parts of the country, people have found desirable places to live and towns that once were quiet are becoming hubs of activity.

I'm planning on buying some gasoline next week.

Meanwhile, here in Spain, King Juan Carlos and Queen Sofia on have just inaugurated (http://www.monstersandcritics.com/news/business/news/article_1606568.php/Spain-adds-to-its-high-speed-rail-network-Roundup)a new line in this country's high-speed rail network, which is being billed as the most advanced in Europe.

It's incredible that Spain has become the high speed rail country in Europe. Who would have believed that high speed rail would become so prevalent in of all European nations, Spain! One thing is certain. Those high speed rail lines created thousands of new jobs at each stop along rail line.

One recent observation is the most commodity prices seem headed north in 2011. At least, all the factors -- including an improving world economy and increasing demand in India and China -- seem in place for increases in all kinds of things. Gasoline will likely be one of them.

Another thought though is that the US will be a little better prepared for the sticker shock.

Here's another perspective from a recent Washington Post article:


If U.S. consumers are in the midst of a green revolution, the news hasn't reached car buyers.

SUVs lead U.S. auto sales growth despite efforts to improve fuel efficiency
Despite buzz around fuel-efficient cars, sales of gas guzzlers are going strong
Percentage change in new auto sales

With the end of the recession, bigger vehicles have made a comeback, sales figures show, and it has come at the expense of smaller, more-efficient cars.

Leading the growth were sales of midsize sport-utility vehicles, which jumped 41 percent through the first 11 months of the year, led by vehicles such as the Jeep Grand Cherokee and the Honda Pilot, each of which get about 18 miles per gallon.

Sales of small cars, by contrast, remained flat despite otherwise surging demand for automobiles. Sales of the Toyota Corolla and the Honda Civic declined, and even the fuel-sipping Toyota Prius, the hybrid darling of the eco-conscious, dropped 1.7 percent.

"You have about 5 percent of the market that is green and committed to fuel efficiency," said Mike Jackson, the chief executive of AutoNation, the largest auto retailer in the country. "But the other 95 percent will give up an extra 5 mpg in fuel economy for a better cup holder."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/12/29/AR2010122904445.html

Another thought though is that the US will be a little better prepared for the sticker shock.


Here's another perspective from a recent Washington Post article:



http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/12/29/AR2010122904445.html

And maybe I'm indulging in wishful thinking. :)

Will Rogers (pre 1950): "We are the first nation in the history of the world to go to the poor house in an automobile."

I haven't had to buy gas in two years, though I do drive somewhat often (at least twice a month), but I swear I remember paying like 3.13 for gas when I was driving. If I wanted to use premium (which my car suggested), that would be around 3.30.

In any ways, it's still much cheaper than soda!

Will Rogers (pre 1950): "We are the first nation in the history of the world to go to the poor house in an automobile."

Hadn't seen that one before...but it is a good one.

Aaron :)

I haven't had to buy gas in two years, though I do drive somewhat often (at least twice a month), but I swear I remember paying like 3.13 for gas when I was driving. If I wanted to use premium (which my car suggested), that would be around 3.30.

In any ways, it's still much cheaper than soda!

There was a discussion on one of the UK cycling boards about the cost of fuel for vehicles...some of us cyclists are fueled by good quality ales that cost close to $5 a pint!:eek: Compare THAT to the price of a gallon of gas:roflmao2:

Aaron:)