Clydesdales/Athenas (200+ lb / 91+ kg) - Let's get serious....

The backstory: In 2004 I was up to about 240 lb. At 6'-2" I know that's necessarily that heavy for this forum, but I was an unhealthy 240- taking 7 pills a day just to keep on keepin' on. If I tried to do anything at all athletic, I was quickly winded. In those days, bike riding was something in my distant past. In 2005 I went on the South Beach Diet and lost 70 lb. in 6 months. At the time, it was easy.

In the 5 years since then, I've put most of that weight back on. I'd like to start some sort of weight loss regime after the holidays, but I'm not quite sure how to go about it and would like input from the forum.

I could try South Beach again, but that is a very carb-limiting diet and I'm not sure how to balance that with riding a bike. I've tried that already but ended up taking in too many carbs apparently. If someone has done SBD successfully while riding, I'd be interested in hearing how you went about it.

But even then, I'm not sure it could work. In 2005 I had a wife and two kids at home. I took over the cooking duties and cooked per the SBD meal plan, and supplemented that with something carby for the rest of the family (pasta or whatever). Now, I have one son in college, another at home but may soon move out, and my wife has gone vegetarian (will still eat some fish). It gets harder to stick with the SBD when you're only cooking for one I would think.

I could maybe join the wife in her vegetarian ways, but I'm not sure I'm ready to just give up meat. It's a possibility but I think I'd be more likely to fall off a vegetarian diet than the South Beach Diet. Still, if we could synch our meals up, it could make things a lot easier, especially if it gets down to just the two of us.

Currently I ride 300+ miles a month, most of those are commuting miles.

What kind of diets have the assembled Clydes here done with success that might fit somewhere with the above? Are there other diets I should consider? I'm not ruling out either of the options above, just trying to list the down sides as well as the up sides. I'm not looking to lose a ton of weight, just maybe about 40 lb., which would put me at 6'-2", 190 lb., and a "normal" BMI. (Although some people dismiss BMIs on an individual basis, I can feel the difference between normal and overweight, and overweight and obese, which I am currently on the brink of, so for me it kind of works.)

It's not a diet, it's a changed life. It's not a jacket you can take off when you want to.

One would think that at first just switching to a vegetarian diet will cause you to lose a fair bit until you find out what foods you like eating and and how to keep it from being repetitive. After that, it's about maintaining a lifestyle which is the tricky part to keep that weight off. I'm at your height and ~220 and have stayed there +/- 10 pounds for about 5-6 years. Sure I'd love to get down to that 190 or so myself, but I'm not sure that I can handle all the yo-yoing. If I was confident I could get down there and stay there, I'd be more motivated to go for it.

I would look at integrating enough fish and chicken on the side with your wife's healthy vegetarian fare. That seems like an excellent regime to me. The 300 miles/mo commuting sounds very positive, but you can mix in some harder/faster riding (I'm assuming the to/from work is at a modest HR)? Let's say your riding 10 miles each way to work. For a reasonable workout that's about how long some folks might take to warm up. With the excellent base you have it might be that even one longer/harder ride on the weekend would raise your base metabolism.

First, I have to agree with the Historian. For me to be successful at this, I had to stop thinking of the change in eating as a "diet," which to me implied a point in the future at which I'll be able to stop. It didn't work that way for me.

As far as choosing a new lifetime approach to food and nutrition, I'm a big fan of WW, but I know there are lots of other viable choices out there.

The other thing you touched on was how to cut back on carbs while still fueling your cycling. Again, my experience may not be for everyone, but here's my take on that issue: My body fat, when combined with sensible everyday nutrition, contains all the energy I need to do the riding I do. Nothing I do on the bike or in the gym requires any sort of carbo loading or massing glycogen stores. I have all the fuel I need to do what I do and still build a little muscle mass in the balance. I'll start worrying about eating for performance when I no longer have any excess weight to lose, or when I find myself in a competitive event where my performance becomes more important. But that's not happening soon.

But again, that's just me. You need to work out your own approach.

Excellent thoughts.

Even though I'm not sure I'm ready to give up meat, the vegetarian thing may be the best route to go in terms of looking at it as a lifestyle change versus a diet. My wife has managed to stick with the vegetarian thing for over two years now, so eating the same foods she does would mean that I could rely on her for support. I honestly have retained the basics of the SBD so in a sense it's been a real lifestyle change, but on the other hand I think I backed off on certain things (beer) a bit too much. Some food for thought from all the responses.

Thanks, guys.

Sure I'd love to get down to that 190 or so myself, but I'm not sure that I can handle all the yo-yoing. If I was confident I could get down there and stay there, I'd be more motivated to go for it.

I was thinking the same thing and was settling in at about 220, but recently work got crazy, I had to travel (and eat in restaurants), and BOOM I was up above 230. I've gotten back to a little under that, but feeling the difference between 220 and 230, I don't feel content to get back to where I was; I really want to get to the 190s. Once I get there I'll worry about staying there.

When I lost all the weight the first time, I actually lost too much. At my low point I was at 168. I sat there for several months, then decided to purposely gain a little back. Unfortunately it didn't stop at 190 like I wanted it to and here I am. When I think of yo-yoing, I think each iteration is a learning experience. To me, fear of yo-yoing is not an excuse to not try to lose the weight. Maybe if I go through more cycles that would change, but I think I really want to make at least one more attempt to get to a more ideal weight.

I've been yo-yo dieting for years, but I am confident that I have finally found the formula that works. People always say that you need to "develop a lifestyle change", but I don't think I really grasped the concept until recently.

The most success that I had was with Body-for-Life in 1999-2000. I went from 219 lbs to 190 lbs. I was working out every morning and eating 5-6 meals a day. I can handle the working out, but eating 5-6 times a day was tough for me. It took a lot of time planning and more time eating. It worked for a while, but I eventually went back to eating 3 meals a day and the weight came back. I couldn't/wouldn't take the time to make it work.

I have an acquaintance that lost 60 lbs on Atkins last year. He is still on it - maintenance phase. He has "found religion" with this diet and tries to "convert" me every time we see each other. I've tried Atkins in the past. It was hell on my digestive tract. Plus, my wife and kids do not eat like that - that makes it too hard to stick with in the long run.

What I have found success with is a bunch of little changes makes big difference overall. There are really 2 things that I do now dietwise. 1.) I eat better foods. 2.) I am more aware of portion control.

We substitute ground turkey for ground beef. We grill burgers at our house almost every Sunday. Now we have turkey burgers instead of beef or bratwurst. Instead of beef tacos, we have turkey tacos. We use fat free sour cream. We use whole wheat spaghetti noodles istead of flour. etc.

I concentrate on breakfast. Every day I have 1 cup of eggbeaters, 1/2 cup of oatmeal and a 8-10 oz of orange juice. I typically, eat left overs for lunch and what ever my wife cooks for dinner. It is the same food I've always eaten. It just contains less calories and I eat less of it. I don't count calories daily. I don't eat a grilled chicken breast and veggies every meal, but I probably eat more poultry than I ever have.

It took a little while to get my hands around portion control. I started with simple things like "eat only one burger instead of two." I read some food labels to identify the portions sizes and the number of calories associated with those portions. I started eating more reasonable portions. It was difficult at first. I had my wife dish me up for a while... and I wouldn't have seconds. Visually seing what I should be eating helped. Portion size is second nature for me now.

I like Coke. I don't drink diet sodas. I still drink 1 coke a day. It is my guilty pleasure. I drink water the rest of the time. (I drink Gatorade when I ride). I've also found that about 100 calories of chocolate a day curbs my cravings. I'll eat either 4-5 kisses or a small handful of M&Ms pretty much every day. I don't know what it is, but the little bit of chocolate keeps me on track.

I've been losing 7-8 lbs a month since Labor Day. Could I be losing more? Sure! Do I care? Not really. Most of the time it doesn't feeling like I am dieting. It is just how I live now. I think that is the key. I am not really on a diet - it is just how I am living now.

Figure out what your metabolism burn rate is by counting every calorie for a week, a measure you weight change for the week. 1 pound ~= 3600 calories.

Then make an adjustment to to your intake of about 500 calories / day. That will let you loose a pound a week.

The Atkins (and other low carb diets) are not good choices for long term healthy eating. A good balanced diet (40-50% carbs, 20-30% protein, and 20-30% fat) is all you need long term. No need to cut out meat, just reduce portions (3-4 ounce serving, up to twice a day) and choose lean meats. The carbs should come predominantly from vegetables and supplemented by whole grains. If you like pasta choose one of the whole grain versions. The whole grains take longer to digest, leaving you satiated longer and provide a better energy source. I have even found a commercial whole grain bread (Nature's own?) that has no added sugar, only 50 calories per slice and tastes good.

I want to chime in and say that I totally agree that it needs to be something you can see yourself doing forever.

A diet I have been following for several years now is the No S Diet. No snacks, no sweets, no seconds, except (sometimes) on days that start with S. It's easy to remember and fits into a normal lifestyle. It's not a key to swift weight loss but I don't fear that I'll pack the pounds back on afterwards. If you want to read more about it, the website is www.everydaysystems.com .

Lots of good advice here.

It's a great forum.

I definitely agree with Historian about it being a lifestyle change.

Have you tried keeping a journal about what you eat and how much and then go back and look at the calories on average you consume? Sometimes the shock itself can spur a change. Sometimes just finding out how many calories are in something can be a real eyeopener.

Reducing portion size is one way to go, but I usually recommend looking for alternatives. Something that will fill you up, but without the calories. Water rich foods and/or foods with lots of fiber (i.e. fruits, vegetables, soups, oatmeal, etc.) usually work well. Increases in Protein consumption can also help.

Another trick I use is to not keep much "junk food" in the house. Basically if it is not convenient you won't reach for it. However do have something that will work. Starvation diets do not work long term. I replaced my chips with microwave popcorn. Replace sodas with drink mixes where you add your own sugar. Teas also work. Instead of having ice cream I now have frozen yogurt. I usually have some nuts and cottage cheese as well.

You could try the Weight Watchers program. I've lost a ton ,84 pounds on it.Stopped it and gained most of it back.

I haven't ever been on a diet as such.

I've been riding a lot, which is good exercise. I'm at 7,587 miles for the year right now.

I've tried to cut out some obvious unhealthy stuff like hamburgers and fries. I've cut out snackng after supper, and am trying to cut out snacking during the day. And switching some other food items around.

I'de like to caution you away from any diet that cuts out a major food category. Atkins, South Beach, etc. These diets may lead to loss of weight, but they also put inordinate stress on your organs, and given how unhealthily large many of us are, I dont really think extra stress on the organs is a good plan, its a way to significantly increase the chance you will die young.

Before somebody asks for a reference, I dont have one. I have multiple degrees in biochemistry and at one time wanted to focus all my research on metabolism modifications. What I quickly learned (and eventually led me to abandon biochemistry) was that between the NIH and the NSF (the two biggest government funding agencies) only research that is targeted to their agenda gets funded. For some time now, their agenda has been more focused on reducing obesity far more then studies on the long term effects.

Background asside, pick up a freshman biochem book and look through the pathways for metabolism. Note where each step is done (the liver, the muscle, etc.) then ask yourself what happens when you force the body into a secondary pathway by denying it a major food type (carbs for example) and giving it too much of another (meats and fats).

The best answer is to consume healthy, and consume less. Add some good exercise in there and you have the magic recipe. Thats it, nothing special. You just need the willpower to make it happen, which is harder then most people give credit for. I look at it this way. When I realized I was addicted to caffeine, I quit. Back in school when I realized I drank too much. I quit. Right now I am addicted to food. I cant quit. The willpower needed for complete avoidance is much easier then the willpower needed for proper moderation. But this forum has a lot of good support, and a lot of good ideas on how to work within your willpower and chance your life the way you need to.

Good luck.

I tried the South Beach diet and lasted only a couple of weeks. I could tell a big difference in my energy levels, especially on bike rides over 30 minutes. It may work for inactive folks but you need carbs for energy to workout. I agree with others about having a balanced diet. The best advocate of balance with a diet and excercise is Oprah's trainer Bob Greene. He has the Best Life (http://www.thebestlife.com/)diet. Another diet plan that was originally developed for body building is Lean Bodies (http://www.leanbodies.com/). I have used both Best Life and Lean Bodies and they give you enough energy to workout and lose weight.

Another easy way to loose weight is cut out the soda. Dr Oz has a 28 day soda challenge (http://members.doctoroz.com/challenge/28-day-national-soda-challenge) that can have a big impact if you are a soda drinker.

Excellent thoughts.

Even though I'm not sure I'm ready to give up meat, the vegetarian thing may be the best route to go in terms of looking at it as a lifestyle change versus a diet. My wife has managed to stick with the vegetarian thing for over two years now, so eating the same foods she does would mean that I could rely on her for support. I honestly have retained the basics of the SBD so in a sense it's been a real lifestyle change, but on the other hand I think I backed off on certain things (beer) a bit too much. Some food for thought from all the responses.

Thanks, guys.

There are drawbacks for males on a vegan or vegetarian diet, remember. Too much soy protein can cause issues involving estrogen precursors inherent in Soy. You can develop Moobs. Maybe consider reducing the fats but keep a certain amount of animal protein like fish, chicken and turkey in your nutritional plan.

Figure out what your metabolism burn rate is by counting every calorie for a week, a measure you weight change for the week. 1 pound ~= 3600 calories.

Then make an adjustment to to your intake of about 500 calories / day. That will let you loose a pound a week.


That formula is not necessarily accurate, depending on your metabolism. The best way to figure out your caloric needs is to take a test that will determine your actual needs for maintenance vs. weight loss. In my case, that is about 2700 a day for maintenance and 2300 a day to lose 1-2 lbs a week (which is a healthy weight loss). I have low testosterone and am on androgel for it which helps some but my metabolism is still pretty low for my weight. The low testosterone combined with the slower metabolism added up to much of my weight gain - and each problem individually complicated the other. With the androgel and adjusting my calories I have been able to manage a steady weight loss over the last year.

That formula is not necessarily accurate, depending on your metabolism. The best way to figure out your caloric needs is to take a test that will determine your actual needs for maintenance vs. weight loss. In my case, that is about 2700 a day for maintenance and 2300 a day to lose 1-2 lbs a week (which is a healthy weight loss). I have low testosterone and am on androgel for it which helps some but my metabolism is still pretty low for my weight. The low testosterone combined with the slower metabolism added up to much of my weight gain - and each problem individually complicated the other. With the androgel and adjusting my calories I have been able to manage a steady weight loss over the last year.

What kind of test did they give you to figure your metabolism? Will it decline as you lose weight? My doctor has continued to recomend an 1800 Calorie/day diet. I suspect he thinks everyone will cheat and eat more than that. He does love to run bloodwork on me. My insurance pays for 80% but it still runs me $235 every 3 months. That's almost $1200 a pop.

What kind of test did they give you to figure your metabolism? Will it decline as you lose weight? My doctor has continued to recomend an 1800 Calorie/day diet. I suspect he thinks everyone will cheat and eat more than that. He does love to run bloodwork on me. My insurance pays for 80% but it still runs me $235 every 3 months. That's almost $1200 a pop.

Isn't bloodwork routine for a diabetic?

There are drawbacks for males on a vegan or vegetarian diet, remember. Too much soy protein can cause issues involving estrogen precursors inherent in Soy. You can develop Moobs. Maybe consider reducing the fats but keep a certain amount of animal protein like fish, chicken and turkey in your nutritional plan.

There's also the unpleasant side effects of flatulence from too much soy.

Another easy way to loose weight is cut out the soda. Dr Oz has a 28 day soda challenge (http://members.doctoroz.com/challenge/28-day-national-soda-challenge) that can have a big impact if you are a soda drinker.

I've already given up soda back when I was on South Beach the first time. Yeah, I have it once in a while, but not every day, maybe one or two cans a week.


There are drawbacks for males on a vegan or vegetarian diet, remember. Too much soy protein can cause issues involving estrogen precursors inherent in Soy. You can develop Moobs. Maybe consider reducing the fats but keep a certain amount of animal protein like fish, chicken and turkey in your nutritional plan.

Hmmm, I never knew that. One thought I've had is to be vegetarian with the wife, and eat healthy meats (lay off the red meat) for lunch at work.

That formula is not necessarily accurate, depending on your metabolism. The best way to figure out your caloric needs is to take a test that will determine your actual needs for maintenance vs. weight loss. In my case, that is about 2700 a day for maintenance and 2300 a day to lose 1-2 lbs a week (which is a healthy weight loss). I have low testosterone and am on androgel for it which helps some but my metabolism is still pretty low for my weight. The low testosterone combined with the slower metabolism added up to much of my weight gain - and each problem individually complicated the other. With the androgel and adjusting my calories I have been able to manage a steady weight loss over the last year.

No, it is not as accurate as a lab test, but it will get most people in the ball park for a lot less money than the lab test! :-)

I'de like to caution you away from any diet that cuts out a major food category. Atkins, South Beach, etc. These diets may lead to loss of weight, but they also put inordinate stress on your organs, and given how unhealthily large many of us are, I dont really think extra stress on the organs is a good plan, its a way to significantly increase the chance you will die young.

Before somebody asks for a reference, I dont have one. I have multiple degrees in biochemistry and at one time wanted to focus all my research on metabolism modifications. What I quickly learned (and eventually led me to abandon biochemistry) was that between the NIH and the NSF (the two biggest government funding agencies) only research that is targeted to their agenda gets funded. For some time now, their agenda has been more focused on reducing obesity far more then studies on the long term effects.

Background asside, pick up a freshman biochem book and look through the pathways for metabolism. Note where each step is done (the liver, the muscle, etc.) then ask yourself what happens when you force the body into a secondary pathway by denying it a major food type (carbs for example) and giving it too much of another (meats and fats).

The best answer is to consume healthy, and consume less. Add some good exercise in there and you have the magic recipe. Thats it, nothing special. You just need the willpower to make it happen, which is harder then most people give credit for. I look at it this way. When I realized I was addicted to caffeine, I quit. Back in school when I realized I drank too much. I quit. Right now I am addicted to food. I cant quit. The willpower needed for complete avoidance is much easier then the willpower needed for proper moderation. But this forum has a lot of good support, and a lot of good ideas on how to work within your willpower and chance your life the way you need to.

Good luck.

+1

Did a quick search for "Health problems associated with Atkins"

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/11/19/earlyshow/health/main584585.shtml

http://www.atkinsdietalert.org/advisory.html

"...The American Heart Association,1,2 American Dietetic Association,3 and the American Kidney Fund4 have all published statements warning about the various dangers associated with low-carbohydrate, high-protein diets..."

References:
1. St Jeor ST, Howard BV, Prewitt TE, Bovee V, Bazzarre T, Eckel RH; Nutrition Committee of the Council on Nutrition, Physical Activity, and Metabolism of the American Heart Association. Dietary protein and weight reduction: a statement for health care professionals from the Nutrition Committee of the Council on Nutrition, Physical Activity, and Metabolism of the American Heart Association. Circulation 2001;104:1869-74.
2. American Heart Association Web site, http://www.americanheart.org/presenter.jhtml?identifier=11234 (accessed March 17, 2004).
3. American Dietetic Association Web site, http://www.webdietitians.org/Print/92_nfs0200b.cfm (accessed March 17, 2004).
4. American Kidney Fund Web site,
http://216.248.130.102/AboutAKF/Newsroom_020425.htm (accessed March 17, 2004.)

I've already given up soda back when I was on South Beach the first time. Yeah, I have it once in a while, but not every day, maybe one or two cans a week.



Hmmm, I never knew that. One thought I've had is to be vegetarian with the wife, and eat healthy meats (lay off the red meat) for lunch at work.


That would work......just stay away from too much Tofu. The estrogen precursors are highest in processed soy. In moderation, it won't cause you issues, though.

+1

Did a quick search for "Health problems associated with Atkins"

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/11/19/earlyshow/health/main584585.shtml

http://www.atkinsdietalert.org/advisory.html

"...The American Heart Association,1,2 American Dietetic Association,3 and the American Kidney Fund4 have all published statements warning about the various dangers associated with low-carbohydrate, high-protein diets..."

References:
1. St Jeor ST, Howard BV, Prewitt TE, Bovee V, Bazzarre T, Eckel RH; Nutrition Committee of the Council on Nutrition, Physical Activity, and Metabolism of the American Heart Association. Dietary protein and weight reduction: a statement for health care professionals from the Nutrition Committee of the Council on Nutrition, Physical Activity, and Metabolism of the American Heart Association. Circulation 2001;104:1869-74.
2. American Heart Association Web site, http://www.americanheart.org/presenter.jhtml?identifier=11234 (accessed March 17, 2004).
3. American Dietetic Association Web site, http://www.webdietitians.org/Print/92_nfs0200b.cfm (accessed March 17, 2004).
4. American Kidney Fund Web site,
http://216.248.130.102/AboutAKF/Newsroom_020425.htm (accessed March 17, 2004.)

I would say that South Beach Diet recognizes these issues and doesn't eliminate carbs; instead they try to make the carbs count for more by recommending complex carbs. I would say if I made a mistake wiht SBD, it was in not going back and re-reading the section on maintenance when I hit my low weight. I thought I could just manipulate my diet and raise and lower my weight pretty much at will, but once I re-developed some bad eating habits that turned out to be self-deception on my part.

I think my new food regimen (lifestyle, not diet) is going to be something like:

. Cut out unnecessary snacks, especially after dinner
. Portion control
. Stress vegetables while limiting meat
. Make the carbs count (stay away from white stuff)

I would say that South Beach Diet recognizes these issues and doesn't eliminate carbs; instead they try to make the carbs count for more by recommending complex carbs. I would say if I made a mistake wiht SBD, it was in not going back and re-reading the section on maintenance when I hit my low weight. I thought I could just manipulate my diet and raise and lower my weight pretty much at will, but once I re-developed some bad eating habits that turned out to be self-deception on my part.

I think my new food regimen (lifestyle, not diet) is going to be something like:

. Cut out unnecessary snacks, especially after dinner
. Portion control
. Stress vegetables while limiting meat
. Make the carbs count (stay away from white stuff)

Sounds like a sensible plan! Good luck.

I was unfamiliar with the South Beach Diet, so I did a search for "Health problems associated with South Beach Diet". The following Mayo Clinic article is interesting.

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/south-beach-diet/MY00499

The major concern, in my mind, is the low carb count in the maintenance phase (phase 3). With a recommendation of only 28% of calories from carbs, it is counter to the normal recommendations that carbs (predominantly vegetables) account for 40-50% of ones diet. Also even top athletes need less protein than is typically found in a average american diet.

....(lifestyle, not diet)...

Bravo!

. Cut out unnecessary snacks, especially after dinner
. Portion control
. Stress vegetables while limiting meat
. Make the carbs count (stay away from white stuff)

Add to that list:

. Imagine eating more! (http://news.sciencemag.org/sciencenow/2010/12/to-eat-less-imagine-eating-more.html)

What kind of test did they give you to figure your metabolism? Will it decline as you lose weight? My doctor has continued to recomend an 1800 Calorie/day diet. I suspect he thinks everyone will cheat and eat more than that. He does love to run bloodwork on me. My insurance pays for 80% but it still runs me $235 every 3 months. That's almost $1200 a pop.

It's called a "Med-Gem" I believe... I took it at the weight loss clinic I attend after the initial phase of Dr. supervised fairly extreme weight loss - 60 lbs in 12 weeks. It's only $50 and any medically supervised weight loss clinic will likely have it. Most insurances cover it as well if they bill it as a cardiac test. You have a fairly simple questionnaire to fill out and the test is pretty simple. They put a mouthpiece in your mouth, connected to an air hose, connected to a machine that measures your metabolic rate and then based on the data that you provided about your activity levels gives you a readout of how many calories you need and a break down of percentage of protein, carbs, etc... The more closely I follow it, the better my weight loss results.

I also agree with the Historian, it's not a diet, it is a lifestyle change. I spend years doing yo-yo diets. I would lose weight fast, only to gain it all back because I would not embrace it as a lifestyle and come to grips that I could not eat like that anymore. I started Jenny Craig in August of 2009, and it helped me on two things. One was learning about balance and portion control and how to enhance my meals with vegetables. The other area it helped me in was accountability. Going in each week to weight-in and talk with Terry, my Jenny lady helped a lot with changing my mind-set about eating. At first, I would try and cheat the system. Eat on Sunday, Monday and Tuesday, and try and starve myself the rest of the week until weight-in on Saturday morning, but soon realized the error in my ways. Good luck in whatever diet you choose, but realize it will never work if you don't make it a lifestyle.