"The 33"-Road Bike Racing - timing/scoring systems

so i'm potentially in the market for a timing/scoring system to be shared among our grassroots promoters in the area, and i'm interested to hear what systems are out there and what others are using....

pro/cons, scalability, ease of use, affordability, all that...

teach me how to score, bikeforums!

I posted a question in twitter.

basically find a good camcorder (high shutter speed - 1/10,000 or higher), feed it into a laptop, use software to look at pictures. At least that's what I've gotten from here and from a friend/teammate who is looking into this for me.

I have camcorder > TiVO > TV right now, it's too coarse, can't read numbers consistently. I have a Canon GL2 camcorder so it's not that, it's the translation somewhere that screws things up.

For 2011 I'm probably going GL2 > laptop via firewire, use some kind of software to view video.

This has nothing to do with timing although you could do timing if you just did timestamps.

The club I race for did a TT series this year. They had remote start/finish (point to point) and had some straightforward system setup.

cdr

what about chip systems? what are basest entry-level-est chip systems?

Dunno on chips. $10k to start? I briefly contemplated that but $10k (number that ended up in my head, dunno how) was too much for me.

our Club looked in to a system from Jaguar

the concerns were no mat at the finish because most run designed systems have a mat and people felt it would be unsafe to have a mat if it rained and that it may cause crashes in a sprint finish.

- the number of chips a system could handle for a sprint finish

the final number was going to be about 20 k Canadian if I remember correctly from a discussion

http://www.innovativetimingsystems.com/

There was talk a few years ago about the local races around these parts going to a timing chip system, iirc you could buy your own chip for $80 or rent one at a race for $5/race. It never happened.

Florida uses AMB. I've got a friend that wrote some software to really tweak it and integrate it with USAC. It'll do everything, from registration to timing.

http://53elevensoftware.com/

TXBRA shares a FinishLynx system, I think. I can put you in touch with the guy who runs it, pm me.

http://www.finishlynx.com/

SCNCA uses a MiniDV camera system with firewire out to a mac laptop running iMovie. The MiniDV is nice because the tape is always running in case you need to look back at things, and with the mac you can take short sequences of groups coming across the line. The camera has to have a 1/2000 shutter speed or better (even 1/1000 isn't bad, which we've used when the lighting is bad). For outdoor use you need a polarizing filter, and for crits it's apparently helpful to have an HD MiniDV to get the wider field of view. When we use it at the indoor velodrome we often don't have all the lights on (they're $$ to run) and at 1/2000 the image can be dim, so we got a couple of PAR64 cans to just illuminate the riders at the finish line. I think some people around here have been looking at some of the cameras that have faster frame rates (the frame rate for what we use is still 1/60 s, even though the shutter is fast enough to freeze the motion), but I haven't heard any opinions yet.

If you want timing, put a clock in the FOV of the camera...

I posted a question in twitter.

basically find a good camcorder (high shutter speed - 1/10,000 or higher), feed it into a laptop, use software to look at pictures. At least that's what I've gotten from here and from a friend/teammate who is looking into this for me.

I have camcorder > TiVO > TV right now, it's too coarse, can't read numbers consistently. I have a Canon GL2 camcorder so it's not that, it's the translation somewhere that screws things up.

For 2011 I'm probably going GL2 > laptop via firewire, use some kind of software to view video.

This has nothing to do with timing although you could do timing if you just did timestamps.

The club I race for did a TT series this year. They had remote start/finish (point to point) and had some straightforward system setup.

cdr

I'm confused. When you say fast shutter speed, that's a component of proper exposure for an individual frame. 1/10000 or faster is going to be a significant challenge for any finishes that are in twilight, or even really cloudy (tall cells). For things going as slow as bicycles, I've found that I can completely stop a bike with a 1/2000 shutter speed.

If you're talking about a really high frame rate camera, then never mind :) Really though, at 40mph, you're looking at about 30cm at 60fps. That means that the winner will be within 15cm of the line (6") in one of the frames. I know quality of officiating is of great importance, but I would think you could see a lead-change between two frames, if one occurred, and be able to infer the winner at that point. A relatively inexpensiveCanon 550D will record 60fps 720p HD.

TXBRA shares a FinishLynx system, I think. I can put you in touch with the guy who runs it, pm me.

http://www.finishlynx.com/

Same here, clubs share a Finishlynx system. It works well, you get times and places really fast. One of our local crits is a points race where you sprint for points every 4th lap and they manage to have all the places picked and posted on a billboard within a lap or two. It's also fun to check out the funky photo finish pictures the slit camera takes. The bronze version is ~$7500.

I know quality of officiating is of great importance, but I would think you could see a lead-change between two frames, if one occurred, and be able to infer the winner at that point.

Like I said above -- at the local track we're shooting 1/2000 at 60 fps, which is pretty good and has been incredibly helpful for final finish order all the way down. I can't believe we didn't start doing this sooner. We get way more finishes that can't be decided by the camera than I expected, maybe one every two race days. Though since it's track, that includes a *lot* of finishes per race day, since we're using it for all the points sprints in the points races, too.

If you want frame rate of 10000fps you really have to go linescan and get 10000 lines/sec, which is still $$$

I'm confused. When you say fast shutter speed, that's a component of proper exposure for an individual frame. 1/10000 or faster is going to be a significant challenge for any finishes that are in twilight, or even really cloudy (tall cells). For things going as slow as bicycles, I've found that I can completely stop a bike with a 1/2000 shutter speed.

If you're talking about a really high frame rate camera, then never mind :) Really though, at 40mph, you're looking at about 30cm at 60fps. That means that the winner will be within 15cm of the line (6") in one of the frames. I know quality of officiating is of great importance, but I would think you could see a lead-change between two frames, if one occurred, and be able to infer the winner at that point. A relatively inexpensiveCanon 550D will record 60fps 720p HD.

I think shutter speed to freeze and fps for quantity. With freezing, I think that reviewing using the MiniDV required a faster shutter speed else it was blurry. A long time ago I asked a friendly NYC promoter about cameras. He did some research for his set up and we kind of replicated it.

I think I need to redo the whole thing though, hence my question on twitter and the related ones to some of my friends that have time to research this stuff.

Regardless, at "slower" shutter speeds (don't know what they are) with slightly cheaper camcorders, the numbers were totally fuzzed out. The GL2 is the nicest cam we have ($2500 or so). The guy (he helped me with Bethel for about 5-7 years) bought a slightly less nice one ($1500?) which is our backup and I have a cheapie ($200) which I was using for my helmet cam (and it's fuzzy, although it is reading off of a 520 line "seeing" cam).

I just want to be able to see all the numbers and read the print on the jerseys and stuff for every finisher at the Bethel races in 2011.

I just want to be able to see all the numbers and read the print on the jerseys and stuff for every finisher at the Bethel races in 2011.

We're doing fine with a $150 miniDV cam at shutter speed of 1/2000, but we only have to cover a 7 m wide track with a max of 24 riders. The crew who do road things like having the HD, but they're still just using a relatively inexpensive miniDV format. Using iMovie seems to make a big difference-- there's no comparable pc software.

Same here, clubs share a Finishlynx system. It works well, you get times and places really fast. One of our local crits is a points race where you sprint for points every 4th lap and they manage to have all the places picked and posted on a billboard within a lap or two. It's also fun to check out the funky photo finish pictures the slit camera takes. The bronze version is ~$7500.

+1 FinishLynx seems awesome.

Local company (http://gcracingllc.com/default.aspx) rents it out to the races & sells finish photos.

Howdy,

The system you need is really going to depend on what you want to get out of it. Local one-day races where you are interested in order of finish (ie. placings) can usually get away with some type of DV camera hooked up to a laptop. As has been mentioned, several Associations are using iMovie on mac laptops. Some associations also own cameras or have a relationship with a vendor in place.

NRC and UCI races require dedicated finish line cameras - usually Lynx based or similar systems. One important difference is that these cameras have the ability to record a finish time for each rider through the use of a cursor on the screen (down to the .001 second). This is very critical in stages races and can also be used in TTs.

Another important consideration is to remember that these high end systems integrate the results software to quickly produce results - including for time based stage races. Not fun to do by hand!

Lastly, chip systems are very useful, but it is important to remember that based on the rules, a camera must decide who one by judging based on the front plane of the front wheel. Chips can really help with results but they must still be used with cameras.

bumping my own thread here a year later. this issue has come up again.

we're looking at about 2K to do something rudimentary...

any suggestions for best software/hardware combo to get the job done?

badhat, do you know what is going to happen to the ACA timing chips this season?

i dont think anything is changing WRT chips.

all BAR/BAT events and State Championships are required to use them and its optional for everybody else.

i am not sure if BAR/BAT & SC TTs are req.d or not.

If anyone on here is an Apple dev geek the iPhone has some slit camera apps I've played with. They're not fast enough for a bike but I'm wondering if it can be improved.

I'm redoing my finishline rig for 2012.

Camera - 2 cameras, one HD 1080@60fps ($625 street price, Panasonic I think), one or more ContourHDs (720@60fps). I'm thinking of a Contour+ and a ContourHD (i.e. regular 1080), both at 720@60fps.

This will feed into either an iMac (not mine but one of the helpers owns one and we used it last year) or a MacBook I just purchased (has Firewire). We'll review on whatever Mac. With 2 or 3 cameras I hope to have some overlap so we have better granularity.

I was thinking of using Contour+ exclusively, two of them, using the Bluetooth to aim them, reviewing footage via USB or HDMI. They're light, relatively shockproof (all three camcorders I've used in prior years have taken 10 foot falls), easily waterproofed, and very light.

But then the helper with the iMac pointed out that 1080@60fps would be better. So I may use a camcorder and a Contour or two instead. I'm going to test the Contour by taping some numbers on a car and having someone drive past me while I record with the Contour. If that's enough then that's enough, I'll get two Contour+. If that's not enough I'll get one Contour+ and one 1080 HD camcorder.

iMac - $1000 or so, refurb from Apple.
MacBook - about $1400-1700 refub from Apple. I got a quad-core for $1700.
Contour+ - $500 retail (street price)
ContourHD - about $150-200 retail
1080@60fps HD camcorder - $625 retail

Right now my plan is to:

1. Test the ContourHD (720@60fps) and see if I can read numbers at some reasonable speed (40 mph). I'll test at 1080@30fps to see if the number clarity is better. Since I have two ContourHDs I'll have one at each setting, both recording the same car going by.
2. If 720@60fps works then I'll get two Contour+ and two waterproof covers for them.
2A. If I need 1080 for clarity but 60 fps for granularity then I'll get the HD camcorder. I'll probably get one Contour+ for secondary granularity, to try and get close finishes (read the number on the 1080, check position on the 720).

Either way I'll be buying either one or two Contour+ and maybe one HD camcorder. I'll get the appropriate cables and I'll be set.

our Club looked in to a system from Jaguar

the concerns were no mat at the finish because most run designed systems have a mat and people felt it would be unsafe to have a mat if it rained and that it may cause crashes in a sprint finish.

- the number of chips a system could handle for a sprint finish

the final number was going to be about 20 k Canadian if I remember correctly from a discussion

http://www.innovativetimingsystems.com/

I talked with these guys at Interbike and have been planning on getting a system since then. I like the antenna setup and use for cross. Chips are disposable and most cost ~$1/rider or less. Can be integrated into the bib number as well.

Tweak their reg setup to work with the setups we currently run and viola....

About $8k

Dutch federation has made the time registration system of this company mandatory for (national level?) events. I don't know what the costs would be, but maybe it's of interest to you?

http://www.mylaps.com/index.php/us_eng/Websites/home

Dutch federation has made the time registration system of this company mandatory for (national level?) events. I don't know what the costs would be, but maybe it's of interest to you?

http://www.mylaps.com/index.php/us_eng/Websites/home

My laps - I looked into them and a couple of races around here have used them. i believe this is the system that Florida uses. It uses mats/loops and the chips are $80-$150 a piece. No thanks.....but yeah....solid system.

I hate chip timing, unless it is a TT.

They used chip timing for the state crit championships and one other omnium in our area. Here are my complaints:

* They charge an extra $5 for the chip. This is a problem because they did not advertise another $5 was needed at registration if you pre-registered online. Why not just raise the entry fee by $5?

* It slows registration. It takes forever to get people their chips, explain how to put them on the bikes, take the payment and get a credit card to assure the chip is returned. Even as the first person in line, it took almost 20 min. to register me for one race.

* Results are not exactly accurate. Some chips just don't seem to get recorded. At the state crit races, in multiple events, the winner was not listed on the results. This resulted in several people having to fight with the race officials to claim that they had won the event - some officials were actually watching who finished while others were relying on what the chip system turned in.

As for TTs, IIRC, the state TT championship was won by thousandths of a second recorded by the chip. A regular stop watch never would have caught such a small difference.

1. Test the ContourHD (720@60fps) and see if I can read numbers at some reasonable speed (40 mph). I'll test at 1080@30fps to see if the number clarity is better. Since I have two ContourHDs I'll have one at each setting, both recording the same car going by.
2. If 720@60fps works then I'll get two Contour+ and two waterproof covers for them.
2A. If I need 1080 for clarity but 60 fps for granularity then I'll get the HD camcorder. I'll probably get one Contour+ for secondary granularity, to try and get close finishes (read the number on the 1080, check position on the 720).


I'd be interested in your results if you want to post them. Does the contour have adjustable shutter speed? At 1/2000 and 30 fps it's easy to read numbers in standard def as long as the light is ok. We ended up putting a couple PAR64 cans at the finish line so we wouldn't have to have all the overhead lights ($$$) turned on.

hey dudes

would this cam be a decent entry level finish cam?

in conjunction with a laptop
http://www.mediacollege.com/equipment/sony/camera/dcr-trv/dcrtrv50.html

hey dudes

would this cam be a decent entry level finish cam?

in conjunction with a laptop
http://www.mediacollege.com/equipment/sony/camera/dcr-trv/dcrtrv50.html

yep

Dutch federation has made the time registration system of this company mandatory for (national level?) events.


correct.

I don't know what the costs would be

iirc, somewhere in the 5-10K range, but that was including chips for 200+ people (at the venue that the KNWU used as a test).

My laps - I looked into them and a couple of races around here have used them. i believe this is the system that Florida uses. It uses mats/loops and the chips are $80-$150 a piece. No thanks.....but yeah....solid system.

very.

I'd be interested in your results if you want to post them. Does the contour have adjustable shutter speed? At 1/2000 and 30 fps it's easy to read numbers in standard def as long as the light is ok. We ended up putting a couple PAR64 cans at the finish line so we wouldn't have to have all the overhead lights ($$$) turned on.

I think I will, it'll be interesting. I have to remember to do it soon.

zombie bump cuz i'm back here again

any PC software out there that will let me review video and capture at the same time?

Some kind of PVR software might let you do that -- most PVR stuff lets you continue recording while you rewind stuff that you missed or want to see again. I don't really do PC stuff, but there's a ton of PVR stuff out there and probably most of it will let you do that.

A Canon HV30 and a macbook seem to work very well. The important thing seems to be mounting it on a tripod about 8-9 feet up so you can get a better view of the racers. Oh, and do yourself a favor, make sure the refs remember to check the racers at the start for the numbers facing the wrong direction, being on the wrong side, etc. At the beginning of a season it seems that new racers are especially prone to having the numbers wrong and in some races you may have 636 and 939 or similar in the same race. :)

A Canon HV30 and a macbook seem to work very well. The important thing seems to be mounting it on a tripod about 8-9 feet up so you can get a better view of the racers. Oh, and do yourself a favor, make sure the refs remember to check the racers at the start for the numbers facing the wrong direction, being on the wrong side, etc. At the beginning of a season it seems that new racers are especially prone to having the numbers wrong and in some races you may have 636 and 939 or similar in the same race. :)

The early season races get to deal with this stuff. Our officials won't score someone who pins their number on the wrong side, wears a vest over, etc. I think a Cat 3 missed a 5th place because of a wrong side pin.