Classic & Vintage - Confente on ebay sold for ten grand??

ok, ten grand for a confente is fine but the one that sold on ebay a few days ago for that amount was a repaint from cycle art. now that seems crazy. that might have been a rust bucket and abused. how can a person spend that kind of money on a big question mark like that? i know i know, some one will tell me that i wanted more than that for mine but...........mine was mint and all original....not a repaint. i only got nine grand for mine anyway. To me it seems that bikes that have been repainted just arent worth nearly as much as original. i dont care if its a joe bell paint job or what.

I like brifters.

ok, ten grand for a confente is fine but the one that sold on ebay a few days ago for that amount was a repaint from cycle art. now that seems crazy. that might have been a rust bucket and abused. how can a person spend that kind of money on a big question mark like that? i know i know, some one will tell me that i wanted more than that for mine but...........mine was mint and all original....not a repaint. i only got nine grand for mine anyway. To me it seems that bikes that have been repainted just arent worth nearly as much as original. i dont care if its a joe bell paint job or what.

Kinda goes along with the whole "better than new" resto thing in both cars and bike, AFAIAC. For my money, if it's not original it loses a whole lot.

SP
Bend, OR

well, i can sort of see it with cars. bikes are different to me. if you ride a bike alot and are fairly careful it should not need repainting. a few chips are fine but rust is another issue. i would say, a re paint cuts the value in half. in my opinion. and as a few of you know, ive purchased bikes in the past only to find out they are repaints and i always get rid of them.
Kinda goes along with the whole "better than new" resto thing in both cars and bike, AFAIAC. For my money, if it's not original it loses a whole lot.

SP
Bend, OR

Didn't you originally want $15K for yours?

Joe- you missed the whole initial thread on the pearl repaint and the current auction now on ebay for an original paint example, poke around in threads beyond the first forum page.

So, dig a little, I even made a reference for you. the bike that sold for 10k languished for a long time with no bids. In the end two bidders were close, the third was late and bid to win. Who knows what his max was.

Beyond that, it is a snapshot in time regarding demand. The market for these is thin. One has to be at the right place at the right time to sell and purchase.

I know of a guy that has one your size in original paint, but I would not bother him without offering $14k or more. Not all of these get traded in public.

well, i can sort of see it with cars. bikes are different to me. if you ride a bike alot and are fairly careful it should not need repainting. a few chips are fine but rust is another issue. i would say, a re paint cuts the value in half. in my opinion. and as a few of you know, ive purchased bikes in the past only to find out they are repaints and i always get rid of them.

The original Confente paint was not that great. Truth hurts, but Jim C. has even stated he painted frames hanging from a radar tower. I would not trash a repaint out of hand.

Umm, weird stuff happens on ebay all of the time. Original "should" command a higher price, but if you get a few people competing, prices can easily inflate.

Joe, I bumped a thread for you on the C&V valuation forum

oops! sorry. ive been out of town all week and havent looked on bf lately. didnt know someone had brought this up. i was just intrigued but this and did not bother to look. thanks repechage, ill check out that other thread for more info. i will say that im not bashing re paints per say, im just saying that one would not re paint a confente unless it was trashed.
Joe- you missed the whole initial thread on the pearl repaint and the current auction now on ebay for an original paint example, poke around in threads beyond the first forum page.

So, dig a little, I even made a reference for you. the bike that sold for 10k languished for a long time with no bids. In the end two bidders were close, the third was late and bid to win. Who knows what his max was.

Beyond that, it is a snapshot in time regarding demand. The market for these is thin. One has to be at the right place at the right time to sell and purchase.

I know of a guy that has one your size in original paint, but I would not bother him without offering $14k or more. Not all of these get traded in public.

Didn't you originally want $15K for yours?

i sure did but never got any bites. that was when the economy was much better as well. so i figure the most i could get for my pristine ORIGINAL example was about 10 grand, why does the repaint , questionable, conditioned one demand the same? mystery to me, thats all.

i will say that im not bashing re paints per say, im just saying that one would not re paint a confente unless it was trashed.

repechage already answered your question. It's not necessarily that the bike was ridden hard (though it may have been), but that sometimes the original paint was crap:


The original Confente paint was not that great. Truth hurts, but Jim C. has even stated he painted frames hanging from a radar tower. I would not trash a repaint out of hand.

i sure did but never got any bites. that was when the economy was much better as well. so i figure the most i could get for my pristine ORIGINAL example was about 10 grand, why does the repaint , questionable, conditioned one demand the same? mystery to me, thats all.

Joe - listen up. Their are 3 really good answers to your question:

1. Ebay
2. Ebay
3. Ebay

Don't try to make sense of it. The collectible markets don't generally make sense - there are always lots and lots of statistical outliers. Get used to it.
(And how come nobody who gets a great deal ever says, "hey, the fair market value of the bike I just bought has really plummeted," instead of saying, "hey, I just got a steal.")

repechage already answered your question. It's not necessarily that the bike was ridden hard (though it may have been), but that sometimes the original paint was crap:

Yeah, and some people can't stand a couple of paint scratches - we encounter folks like that here every day.

Well not that the ebay bike was presented that well, but I remember how poorly yours was when it was showing up on the CL every few weeks. I thought to myself at time, "I could get ten grand for that bike with the proper photos and description on ebay".

Let's see what this one goes for in a couple of days:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Rare-Mario-Confente-Bicycle-Serial-23-/280603454021?pt=Road_Bikes&hash=item415544ea45

So what makes them worth the dough? They look pretty much like a lot of other bikes out there.

So what makes them worth the dough? They look pretty much like a lot of other bikes out there.

Check out the other very recent Confente thread in the values forum.

I don't necessarily agree that they aren't distinctive, if you have an eye for detail. But won't argue that they're magical or head-and-shoulders above a lot of other builders. But in any case, here's my stream-of-consciousness response to the same question in the earlier thread. Enjoy.:

It has to do with a number of factors. For one thing, Confente made only a very small number of bikes (about 135) under his own name. They were made to a high standard for the time - not necessarily the highest level of fit and finish but very, very good. They also have some neat and distinctive (though not necessarily unique) details. The quality of his work was evident enough that top riders sought Confente out as a builder (e.g. Jacques Boyer). Then there's the connection with Masi - Mario built for Masi in Italy before coming to California to run the Masi operation in Carlsbad, which turned out a lot of very collectible bikes on its own. Confente made a real splash when he started selling his frames for a high price and earned himself a lot of attention in the process, especially after displaying at the NY International Bike Show circa 1978. The bikes themselves are attractive and well-designed, and there are folks who swear they ride better than other bikes of the time. There's also the fact that Confente died tragically at the age of 34 in 1979. Then there's the mystique that has subsequently built around Confente - the name has acquired a certain aura in vintage bike circles. Then there's the "investment" aspect of the bikes at work - very few vintage bikes attract money beyond cognoscenti circles as pure investments, but Confente's do. They are the closest thing vintage bicycles have come to being a commodity. As mentioned, the standard of the work is very high, and represents kind of a meeting of Italian tradition and design sensibilities with American attention to detail and obsession with perfection, but really the value has largely to do with the sort of overall "perfect storm" of factors I've mentioned.

now that is a good point!! i did take crappy pics of mine and i notice,just not bikes but other items, the better the picture presentation, the more the price goes up even for the most common items.
Well not that the ebay bike was presented that well, but I remember how poorly yours was when it was showing up on the CL every few weeks. I thought to myself at time, "I could get ten grand for that bike with the proper photos and description on ebay".

Let's see what this one goes for in a couple of days:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Rare-Mario-Confente-Bicycle-Serial-23-/280603454021?pt=Road_Bikes&hash=item415544ea45

The original Confente paint was not that great. Truth hurts, but Jim C. has even stated he painted frames hanging from a radar tower. I would not trash a repaint out of hand.

Since Jim C. originally painted them in the first place, and refinished this one, its about as close to an original you can get with a repaint, as discussed on the CR list...

Confentes are way out of my league, but I can admire the quality and uniqueness. I think they're pretty special.

i sure did but never got any bites. that was when the economy was much better as well. so i figure the most i could get for my pristine ORIGINAL example was about 10 grand, why does the repaint , questionable, conditioned one demand the same? mystery to me, thats all.
I remember calling you to inquire about the bike. It was beautiful and would have been perfect for me. But I felt $15K was way out of line with what I thought it should cost, so I didn't extend an offer. With that said, I could have offered more than what you ended up taking for it.

well, you might have heard that i put that on ebay. it was like the first thing (maybe the 2nd) that i ever tried to sell on ebay. in fact, i had recently ( maybe 2 months earlier) signed up for ebay for the first time. it really pissed me off that the bidding started going up and like maybe, two days into the bidding they cut me off. i got some lame message saying that i was kicked off ebay. didnt give a reason. i couldnt believe it!! i think im still kicked off to this day. they never told me why. that really made me mad so i never have been signed up yet. i have a relative thats ok to buy and sell stuff so sometimes i go with her but to this day im not allowed to buy or sell. figure that out. that might have cost me several grand on that confente?
I remember calling you to inquire about the bike. It was beautiful and would have been perfect for me. But I felt $15K was way out of line with what I thought it should cost, so I didn't extend an offer. With that said, I could have offered more than what you ended up taking for it.

I think it was before you put it on eBay. Someone on the CR list got wind that you had one for sale. He stopped by, took a couple of photos and shared them with the CR crowd.

oh sure. that guy was nice. he said he was connected with the davis bicycle hall of fame. he wanted to ride it and i said " give me a check for 15 grand to hold until you come back. sounds funny but when i went to boyer's shop to see it, he wouldnt let me test ride it without the money-thouight i might crash it!!
I think it was before you put it on eBay. Someone on the CR list got wind that you had one for sale. He stopped by, took a couple of photos and shared them with the CR crowd.

Also A Confente doesn't matter if it is a good picture or not whoever is buying it is not just buying it because it looks nice on the ebay picture just like cranks and shifters and other items sold on ebay they are buying it because they know how much they are worth and they know the uniqness of this frame.

Confente on ebay sold for ten grand??

ok, ten grand for a confente is fine but the one that sold on ebay a few days ago for that amount was a repaint from cycle art.

------Confente bike were originally like many forums members said it was painted by Jim Cunningham for cycle art.
So is practically reapinted were originals used to be rapinted not to much value loss there.

Do you still have pictures of the bike you sold? which number was it?

Since Jim C. originally painted them in the first place, and refinished this one, its about as close to an original you can get with a repaint, as discussed on the CR list...

Confentes are way out of my league, but I can admire the quality and uniqueness. I think they're pretty special.

Confente had at least two painters, and I am pretty sure three in the USA. Jim Cunningham, Mr. Grant from Apollo Engraving and a fellow up in Northern Cal. would have been the third. Dr. Deltron might have even stated the name of the guy up North.
Some here might remember frubin from days gone past here, he stated his bike had wet paint when he received it in Los Angeles, it was painted by Apollo Engraving in the LA area. Cunningham was back East for medical care, Mario was locked out of his workspace.

So what makes them worth the dough? They look pretty much like a lot of other bikes out there.

To answer that, you need to ride one that fits. If they look the same to you, then you don't need to own one.

well, you might have heard that i put that on ebay. it was like the first thing (maybe the 2nd) that i ever tried to sell on ebay. in fact, i had recently ( maybe 2 months earlier) signed up for ebay for the first time. it really pissed me off that the bidding started going up and like maybe, two days into the bidding they cut me off. i got some lame message saying that i was kicked off ebay. didnt give a reason. i couldnt believe it!! i think im still kicked off to this day. they never told me why. that really made me mad so i never have been signed up yet. i have a relative thats ok to buy and sell stuff so sometimes i go with her but to this day im not allowed to buy or sell. figure that out. that might have cost me several grand on that confente?

Joe, from what you just wrote you attempted to sell a high priced item with little or no feedback and little if any transaction record. You may or may not have accepted paypal, if not ebay by your "profile" or someone red flagging your listing to ebay you were high risk, probably too high. This is a reason that the popular scam tactic has become to hijack a solid account, set up a bogus auction, get the money outside of the typical paypal way and run. Creating an alternate account is not that hard, a different email address, checking account tie in, and maybe a different computer and you are good to go. I know a few who have two accounts, one for purchases, one for selling.

Note reopened thread - new poster has different questions

Joe's bike was #77 a 58 cm frame by Mario Measure. That is I think the question I could make out, No? Not that hard to find or if you have a memory for these things.

To answer that, you need to ride one that fits. If they look the same to you, then you don't need to own one.

So they have a unique ride unlike any other make?

So they have a unique ride unlike any other make?
I think it's clear that they go for a lot because they are nice bikes, there was a lot of hype when the brand was introduced, and there are a limited number of the bikes. The idea that they are special beyond that is an argument that can't withstand serious scrutiny. People aren't buying them as their daily rider anyway.

I think it's clear that they go for a lot because they are nice bikes, there was a lot of hype when the brand was introduced, and there are a limited number of the bikes. The idea that they are special beyond that is an argument that can't withstand serious scrutiny. People aren't buying them as their daily rider anyway.

And I thought they might be products of some sort of pan dimensional physics unknown to mere mortals like myself:lol:

People aren't buying them as their daily rider anyway.

That is not true in all cases.

didnt know this thread came "back to life" repechage is right..mine was serial 77 and a 58cm. got it from jock boyer in his shop in seaside a couple years ago. he had several of them and some were his and a couple he was selling on a consignment type of thing. i remember him telling me that this was a bike mario made for one of the guys that painted his frames. i guess the painter had died and his widow was selling it(thats what i remember anyway). i did sell it to an asian gent from san fran. who said he had a very small but a very very nice collection that included a cinelli lazer. miss the bike alot but i did get a new car. again, my bike was mint mint mint and all original right down to the handle bar tape.

again, my bike was mint mint mint and all original right down to the handle bar tape.

So I have to ask, what did you do with it while you owned it?

Did Confente had anyone working for him? Because that might also put the value up on Confente's frames. The less people the more value isn't it?

Did Confente had anyone working for him? Because that might also put the value up on Confente's frames. The less people the more value isn't it?
I don't think you can come up with a rational explanation based on that sort of reasoning. My personal bias is that if people are still collecting bikes in 100 years, an Eisentraut is going to be worth more than a Confente, but I'm not going to be around to collect that bet.

Did Confente had anyone working for him? Because that might also put the value up on Confente's frames. The less people the more value isn't it?

No, save for the allegation by a member here a while ago now who used the name Realframes. He stated someone else did braze up one or part of one, or more. He was not specific and made no effort to provide anything to reinforce his claim. This is of course in regard to the metalwork, Mario did not paint his own.

I don't think you can come up with a rational explanation based on that sort of reasoning. My personal bias is that if people are still collecting bikes in 100 years, an Eisentraut is going to be worth more than a Confente, but I'm not going to be around to collect that bet.

Predicting the market is for the gamblers. I buy what appeals to me and that is in relation to what I can tolerate in price.

The CR list chatter from a few days ago had a number of members touting the great price a Davidson bike was on ebay offer, soon to end. No one jumped. The bike went without bids. The bike appeared quite nice and of a popular size.

Joe - listen up. Their are 3 really good answers to your question:

1. Ebay
2. Ebay
3. Ebay

Don't try to make sense of it. The collectible markets don't generally make sense - there are always lots and lots of statistical outliers. Get used to it.
(And how come nobody who gets a great deal ever says, "hey, the fair market value of the bike I just bought has really plummeted," instead of saying, "hey, I just got a steal.")

Exactly. Can you spell "tulip bubble"?

Exactly. Can you spell "tulip bubble"?

The bubble popping only hurts for those who bought in late and for speculation.

Another side to this is you bought your Confente for $400. plus tax, built it up with Campagnolo on hand from another bike, total cost under $1,000. Now its worth 10 times that, not your fault, but riding it is more problematic because if it gets crunched by some dummy in the paceline not thinking, it cannot be replaced with the same thing.

Now you know why I am careful who I ride with.

Predicting the market is for the gamblers. I buy what appeals to me and that is in relation to what I can tolerate in price.

The CR list chatter from a few days ago had a number of members touting the great price a Davidson bike was on ebay offer, soon to end. No one jumped. The bike went without bids. The bike appeared quite nice and of a popular size.Davidsons never really appealed to me and they were just this side of a production bike. Then again, most of the Italian bikes people love and lust after were production bikes. But who knows what might start something from no bids to highly desirable? Certainly a limited supply helps.

Now you know why I am careful who I ride with.
Please consider posting pics of your Confente. I'm sure I'm not the only one who would enjoy seeing it.

Please consider posting pics of your Confente. I'm sure I'm not the only one who would enjoy seeing it.

And you're Masis, we like Masi too.

And you're Masis, we like Masi too.
I can do that in a future Masi thread. I have a couple, but one is pretty beaten up. So it's not the best eye candy.

I think most of the Confente "hype"(if you wanna call it that) has to do with the mystique behind the name. I have no doubts that Confente made excellent bikes but his marketing strategy was key. Early on, Confente was able to get big name racers to ride his bikes (probably free of charge). This allowed him to charge astronomical prices for his work. Just a quick look at the road bike forum will tell you that people with money will pay up the yin yang for a product that is used and recommended by the top notchers iin the league. During his day, Confente was able to charge up to four times as much for a bike as compared to his competitors. Add to this his almost unequaled passion for quality and you have a sure shot winner. I have read that at one point Confente risked his living dream because he refused to have his name connected to lower grade builds. Confente was an anti-sell-out who sadly passed before his time. Making some of the most sought after bikes in his day that were cut short at less than 200 units.
I can definitely see why people arre paying top dollar for one of his bikes. But I've said it once and I'll say it again...
Nostalgia is only beat in impracticality by love.

I'll bet you cash money that Mario wasn't giving away bikes.

I'd also wager that it was more a matter of riders seeking out Mario to have him build their frames than him chasing them.

I'll bet you cash money that Mario wasn't giving away bikes.

I'd also wager that it was more a matter of riders seeking out Mario to have him build their frames than him chasing them.

I was not following racing very much when Mario was building.
Skip Cutting raced at least one on the road, I would not be surprised if he had a track bike too. He generally bought matching pairs.
J. Boyer had his bikes built, I bet he paid for them.
Jerry Ash raced a Confente on the track, I would also expect he had more. To keep his amateur standing, I would guess they were paid for, but I have no idea on the price.
The bikes were not cheap, and prices rose fast. I think the majority went to those who could afford them. No idea as to their motivation, name dropping and enthusiasm for the "best" probably paid a part.

I don't think you can come up with a rational explanation based on that sort of reasoning. My personal bias is that if people are still collecting bikes in 100 years, an Eisentraut is going to be worth more than a Confente, but I'm not going to be around to collect that bet.'

Well i know it is not a rational explanation btu I knew couple of collector for example saying that a they would pay more for a De Rosa before 1980 than after of some years of that sort because that is the time when Hugo De Rosa was actually on the torch. That's why I think the value goes up because these were all Confente made ( of course and there painters.) But he was the only welder according to the comment Jim C. posted on the Italian cycling journal. On this one you know for sure he did build it not like many other brands where your frame might of being build by an assistant.

'

Well i know it is not a rational explanation btu I knew couple of collector for example saying that a they would pay more for a De Rosa before 1980 than after of some years of that sort because that is the time when Hugo De Rosa was actually on the torch.

This is more because before 1979-80, De Rosas were built with the traditional pressed lugs, meaning much more handwork was involved in the production of the frames. After 1979, De Rosas were built with cast lugs. There's no guarantee that every De Rosa before 1980 was personally brazed by Ugo, though he was certainly very involved in what was a very small production operation (relative to, say, Colnago), and he indeed remained very involved in the day-to-day building of the bikes after 1980.
There are De Rosas I would personally pay more for than any Confente. And I like Confentes (and have even put in bids on one or two).