Living Car Free - Compromises With The Smaller Car When You Cannot Cycle?

I know that this is the Living Car Free forum. Now I would like to pose some questions and insight on small cars that are coming out as some people are rather forced into car usage due to various good reasons. For the Record: I prefer to ride my bikes over driving and especially car ownership. But because I live and work in an region that is geared for cars....sometimes using a car over the bike is unavoidable. But if you look inside the car I am driving, you will probably see one of my folding bikes always beside me!

http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/video?id=7851883&pid=7851880 (http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/video?id=7851883&pid=7851880)

http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=news/car_tips&id=7851880 (http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=news/car_tips&id=7851880)

(Transcribed Print Version Below)
Smaller cars making big comeback in U.S.

Dave Kunz

LOS ANGELES (KABC) -- Smaller cars are starting to make a comeback, with good gas mileage and generally low sticker prices.

Some of the newest cars have big-car features inside small packages.

Ford made a proclamation a few years ago that it was shifting its focus more toward cars instead of trucks.

One of their new non-truck stars is the European-derived Fiesta, part of a wave of smaller cars hitting the market, a trend that's a response to changing times.

"The best way to get a vehicle to get better fuel economy is to make it smaller. And it's the easiest, fastest way to do it, so by starting by making vehicles smaller, manufacturers get the best fuel economy," said Dan Hall, marketing executive at AutoPacific.

Hot on the heels of the Fiesta is the new Mazda2, which has already had success in Europe and Asia. The Mazda3 used to be the smallest car we could buy in the U.S., but the 2 comes in one size smaller, and for less money.

There's still lots of room inside, and while the engine's meek 100 horsepower doesn't exactly live up to Mazda's "Zoom-Zoom" slogan, it pays off in being really good with a gallon of gas.

If you do go down one size class in your next vehicle, you could probably save 10 to 20 percent per year on your fuel bill. If you start doing some math, you can see that over the course of a lease or your car payments, the savings can really add up.

Just about every car maker is coming out with something smaller in order to help meet federal fuel-economy standards.

In Buick's case they also reached over to Europe for their new Regal, based on an Opel from Germany. Still large by small-car standards, but small for a Buick, and four-cylinder power exclusively for good fuel economy.

"Small" used to mean unpleasant to drive or ride in, but not anymore. These new small cars have most every feature that bigger ones have, and buyers might be surprised by what automakers are offering.

"When they get consumers behind the wheel, first at the dealership, and then driving, I think they'll find that things are not what they used to be," said Hall. "Adding the right features that people are used to seeing on the current vehicle that they have, or features that are, quite frankly, better than features in their current vehicle, they could be swayed to go that way.'

In the wake of higher gas prices and many people re-evaluating their personal finances, "small" may become the new "big."

What I don't get is why this forum seems to miss the whole motorcycle/moped/scooter. I have a moped for fun, and a motorcycle for getting myself long distance which would be otherwise impractical to bike. It takes just as much time as driving, but costs a lot less gas. Insurance is pretty cheap if you buy something small and economical instead of a sport bike. A used motorcycle is pretty cheap, and new is a lot cheaper than a car. Unless you need to move lots of stuff/people I don't see a reason why you'd need a car for commuting over a motorcycle(well unless you're afraid of weather).

A smaller more fuel efficient car... what a crazy notion that is.

How on earth will you get anywhere with less than 200 horsepower under the hood ?

Seriously...

I remember being pretty happy with the 56 hp my Beetle cranked out and was even more happy with the 30-35 mpg it got... that was a '71 Super.

I have a '92 Sentra (yet to be registered / insured) that cranks out a whopping 120 hp but does carry 5 and has decent luggage capacity which is good as I bought it for taking much longer trips with the family.

The new Fiesta has been sold in Europe for quite some time... why Ford has waited so long to bring it to North America is a mystery.

It will take a fairly big cultural shift for people to really embrace smaller cars as their primary vehicle as they have been sold the "bigger is better" for a very long time and the small car has been relegated to the entry level / second vehicle niche for many.

100 hp is plenty for a passenger car and within urban confines you really don't need minivans that have 250hp and go 0-60 in 10 seconds or less.

What I don't get is why this forum seems to miss the whole motorcycle/moped/scooter. I have a moped for fun, and a motorcycle for getting myself long distance which would be otherwise impractical to bike. It takes just as much time as driving, but costs a lot less gas. Insurance is pretty cheap if you buy something small and economical instead of a sport bike. A used motorcycle is pretty cheap, and new is a lot cheaper than a car. Unless you need to move lots of stuff/people I don't see a reason why you'd need a car for commuting over a motorcycle(well unless you're afraid of weather).
+1 If i ever end up getting a license ill probably just ride my motorcycle around, though ive had the thing for six years and have only put 8 miles on it:)

you really don't need minivans that have 250hp and go 0-60 in 10 seconds or less.
What?? yes we do:lol:

What I don't get is why this forum seems to miss the whole motorcycle/moped/scooter. I have a moped for fun, and a motorcycle for getting myself long distance which would be otherwise impractical to bike. It takes just as much time as driving, but costs a lot less gas. Insurance is pretty cheap if you buy something small and economical instead of a sport bike. A used motorcycle is pretty cheap, and new is a lot cheaper than a car. Unless you need to move lots of stuff/people I don't see a reason why you'd need a car for commuting over a motorcycle(well unless you're afraid of weather).

+1

I don't quite get why diesel isn't bigger in the US. I realise it's more expensive than regular gas but based on cars in the UK it's worth paying the extra for the fuel economy.

Here something like a Toyota RAV4 with a petrol engine gets about 20-25mpg but the same car with a diesel engine gets more like 40-45mpg. (Our gallons are bigger than US gallons so the numbers you guys over the water see might be lower, but the ratio between them should be comparable).

A friend of mine recently bought a Citroen Berlingo which is like a van converted for passenger use. It's big enough to put unfolded bikes (plural) in the back, accelerates faster than his previous petrol-powered car and still gives him 60-70mpg on the highway. It's not going to beat sports cars off the lights but in terms of a combination between practical and economical it seems hard to beat. So much so, in fact, that I've been considering finally trading in my rather old and tired car for something similar.

I live in the city where going car free is much more practical than in rural areas, but would rather like a car that's big enough to take two bikes with relative ease. Getting my bike into my current car feels like some kind of fiendish puzzle.

A smaller more fuel efficient car... what a crazy notion that is.

How on earth will you get anywhere with less than 200 horsepower under the hood ?

Seriously...

I remember being pretty happy with the 56 hp my Beetle cranked out and was even more happy with the 30-35 mpg it got... that was a '71 Super.

I have a '92 Sentra (yet to be registered / insured) that cranks out a whopping 120 hp but does carry 5 and has decent luggage capacity which is good as I bought it for taking much longer trips with the family.

The new Fiesta has been sold in Europe for quite some time... why Ford has waited so long to bring it to North America is a mystery.

It will take a fairly big cultural shift for people to really embrace smaller cars as their primary vehicle as they have been sold the "bigger is better" for a very long time and the small car has been relegated to the entry level / second vehicle niche for many.

100 hp is plenty for a passenger car and within urban confines you really don't need minivans that have 250hp and go 0-60 in 10 seconds or less.

I don't understand the need for hp either. I do know that cars are much heavier today than they were 20+ years ago, mainly due to increased strengthening for to meet crash standards. Growing up we had several Renaults, a Citroen, a couple of Fiats and a Datsun or two. Most had engines in the 1 to 1.5 litre range and produced hp in the 60 range. Mileage on all of them was usually in excess of 40mpg on the highway. Quirky cars but with the exception of the Fiat's extremely dependable.

Aaron :)

I don't quite get why diesel isn't bigger in the US. I realise it's more expensive than regular gas but based on cars in the UK it's worth paying the extra for the fuel economy.

Here something like a Toyota RAV4 with a petrol engine gets about 20-25mpg but the same car with a diesel engine gets more like 40-45mpg. (Our gallons are bigger than US gallons so the numbers you guys over the water see might be lower, but the ratio between them should be comparable).

A friend of mine recently bought a Citroen Berlingo which is like a van converted for passenger use. It's big enough to put unfolded bikes (plural) in the back, accelerates faster than his previous petrol-powered car and still gives him 60-70mpg on the highway. It's not going to beat sports cars off the lights but in terms of a combination between practical and economical it seems hard to beat. So much so, in fact, that I've been considering finally trading in my rather old and tired car for something similar.

I live in the city where going car free is much more practical than in rural areas, but would rather like a car that's big enough to take two bikes with relative ease. Getting my bike into my current car feels like some kind of fiendish puzzle.

The US has different pollution standards and from what I gather the Euro diesels don't meet the standards so don't get imported.

I was in the Bahamas a while back and saw a crew cab diesel Ford Ranger pickup. That model was never offered in the US. I would have bought one in a heartbeat if they had been available. However most US Consumers have been brainwashed into believing bigger is better and safer, and it is to a point when the bulk of the vehicles on the road are over sized flying boxes piloted by incompetent drivers.

Also the automakers lobby managed to get pickups and other light trucks exempted from the CAFE standards (or at least got lower standards) as well as from many of the crash standards, so they started building SUV's which they made a massive profit on.

Aaron :)

The US has different pollution standards and from what I gather the Euro diesels don't meet the standards so don't get imported.

I was in the Bahamas a while back and saw a crew cab diesel Ford Ranger pickup. That model was never offered in the US. I would have bought one in a heartbeat if they had been available. However most US Consumers have been brainwashed into believing bigger is better and safer, and it is to a point when the bulk of the vehicles on the road are over sized flying boxes piloted by incompetent drivers.

Also the automakers lobby managed to get pickups and other light trucks exempted from the CAFE standards (or at least got lower standards) as well as from many of the crash standards, so they started building SUV's which they made a massive profit on.

Aaron :)

To me, it seems like anything really good or better is not imported to the US. My father's UK made Mini was discontinued in the mid-1960s for some stupid reason or another. I think he told me that it did not meet some regulation like crash tests, but I honestly don't remember. Plus the now hipster endorsed traditional Dutch made bikes were not imported either except for one company I used to buy them from back in the late 1960s & 1970s-Flying Dutchman-until rather recently.

As far as "safer" vehicles nowadays, perhaps they might be. But the morons that operate them cancels that right out. I can see why people are really afraid to take up cycling again-especially around Southern California.

I don't quite get why diesel isn't bigger in the US.

What about natural gas? According to Energy Department predictions, its price will stay low over the next quarter century:

"The department nearly doubled its estimate in the new projection from the one it issued a year ago. As a result, it is predicting that natural gas will remain under $5 per million cubic feet through 2022. Before the recession, it sold for over $12; the price lately has been between $4 and $4.50. Natural gas will increase its share of the electricity market, one factor that will drive down carbon emissions, the government predicted".

http://green.blogs.nytimes.com/

I don't quite get why diesel isn't bigger in the US. I realise it's more expensive than regular gas but based on cars in the UK it's worth paying the extra for the fuel economy.


You obviously weren't driving in the 80s when GM sold smoky diesels with undersized engine blocks that were horribly unreliable. Calling them lemons would be insulting all citrus fruits.

All these years later I still hold an enormous amount of distrust toward GM based on my experience with those cars. I know diesels can be excellent cars - I almost bought a VW Jetta. However, many who experienced these abominations, either as an unlucky owner or a choking pedestrian on the side of the road, will take longer to convince diesel cars can make it in this country.

Muscle-car rage completely lost all sanity to me. Now twisting the rubber band tighter goes on. Making sleek jelly beans on wheels go faster and turn tighter is just ridiculous to me. I do like microcar 3 or 4 wheel very small vehicles, but the majority of people scream about lack of safety; or lack of "concert-hall" climate-controlled cocoons. But with all the rain, earthquakes, and flooding today in CA.; maybe I am the stupid one.

What about natural gas?


CNG and LNG will increase as oil prices continue upwards while Natural gas prices in the US, for at least the next decade or so, stay relatively tame. That said, Diesel will be around since a synthetic diesel can be made from Natural Gas. We probably won't do it here but in places like Qatar where they have GOBS of Natural gas, they are building gas to liquids plants. Diesel is a LOT easier to ship than liquefied natural gas.

It'll be an interesting battle to watch...

CNG and LNG will increase as oil prices continue upwards while Natural gas prices in the US, for at least the next decade or so, stay relatively tame. That said, Diesel will be around since a synthetic diesel can be made from Natural Gas. We probably won't do it here but in places like Qatar where they have GOBS of Natural gas, they are building gas to liquids plants. Diesel is a LOT easier to ship than liquefied natural gas.

It'll be an interesting battle to watch...

The ad below was placed in the Washington Post on 25 Feb 2009 by Bill Wattenburg, a physicist and right-wing talk show host.

http://images.radcity.net/5151/3518667.gif

The Fiesta and Mazda 2 are the same car under the skin, the Buick Regal, considered small in N.A. is sold as a Large, Luxury, Opel in Germany.

As far as Horsepower goes, for a while I had a Citroen car with 2 cylinders, that put out all of 37 HP when new.

I would ( will ) probably buy one of the various planned 3 wheeled electric 2 person tadpole trike electric vehicles, when the battery ( Ultracap ) technology becomes reality.

You obviously weren't driving in the 80s when GM sold smoky diesels with undersized engine blocks that were horribly unreliable. Calling them lemons would be insulting all citrus fruits.

All these years later I still hold an enormous amount of distrust toward GM based on my experience with those cars. I know diesels can be excellent cars - I almost bought a VW Jetta. However, many who experienced these abominations, either as an unlucky owner or a choking pedestrian on the side of the road, will take longer to convince diesel cars can make it in this country.

I'm not talking about the 80s. In the UK in the early 90s a lot of small cars with diesel engines rattled like something the size of a Ford Transit van or bigger. But these days a diesel engine sounds much the same as a petrol engine and can offer impressive performance as well. The last time I drove a diesel (in about 2007) it took me about 400 yards of driving it before I forgot it was a diesel.

It wasn't that long ago that people bought a Toyota if they really, honestly, truly, couldn't afford to buy anything else. Times change, and refusing to buy something good now because of a bad experience of something loosely similar 25 years ago doesn't make a lot of sense.

The US has different pollution standards and from what I gather the Euro diesels don't meet the standards so don't get imported.

I find it hard to believe that a 60mpg diesel car from Europe can possibly produce more pollution than a 12mpg petrol muscle car from Detroit.

I find it hard to believe that a 60mpg diesel car from Europe can possibly produce more pollution than a 12mpg petrol muscle car from Detroit.

In is the NOx emissions that do in the diesel. Oddly, bio diesel produces higher NOx emissions than petrol diesel. However, this is not the problem it used to be with the introduction of low sulfur fuel in the USA the cat. converters can do a better job eliminating the NOx. Engine type makes a big difference, a two stroke moped puts out way more toxic fumes than even a Hummer, so MPG is only one factor in the total environmental equation.

I'm not talking about the 80s.

I know you're not. My point is that Detroit introduced several absolutely horrible Diesel vehicles in the 80s. Given the horrible performance and dirty exhaust from these monstrosities, people here have a pretty dim view of diesels. We now have ultra low sulfur diesel so manufacturers can do really advanced diesel designs that are emissions compliant in all 50 states. They have a perception problem right now that's going to take a while to correct.

I know you're not. My point is that Detroit introduced several absolutely horrible Diesel vehicles in the 80s. Given the horrible performance and dirty exhaust from these monstrosities, people here have a pretty dim view of diesels. We now have ultra low sulfur diesel so manufacturers can do really advanced diesel designs that are emissions compliant in all 50 states. They have a perception problem right now that's going to take a while to correct.

I can appreciate the perception problem. Despite the fuel economy offerings I was a little wary of a diesel car having seen (and heard) so many small cars that rattled like huge vans.

When gas went to $4/gallon back in June 2008 and people were stuck with their huge SUVs they couldn't afford to put fuel in them and couldn't sell because nobody else wanted to pay top dollar for a 12mpg car, I'm surprised that the number of SUVs on the road still seems to be rising even though gas has eased off from the highs. Even with bad experiences in the past I'd have thought more people would be interested in at least giving diesel another chance.

From my (limited) experience of Americans and their attitudes to motoring it seems people are aware that diesel is more expensive than petrol but don't factor in the difference in fuel mileage. If you pay 20% more per gallon but get 75% more miles per gallon then, all else being equal, it's a good investment.

What I don't get is why this forum seems to miss the whole motorcycle/moped/scooter. I have a moped for fun, and a motorcycle for getting myself long distance which would be otherwise impractical to bike. It takes just as much time as driving, but costs a lot less gas. Insurance is pretty cheap if you buy something small and economical instead of a sport bike. A used motorcycle is pretty cheap, and new is a lot cheaper than a car. Unless you need to move lots of stuff/people I don't see a reason why you'd need a car for commuting over a motorcycle(well unless you're afraid of weather).
Thank you.

The idea of a small, "greener" car with low average consumption is appealing. Every now and then we rent a cabin for a weekend, those are usually out of reach of any public transportation. For those trips I often rent a subcompact car (I've driven a Fiat 500 (http://www.fiat.com/cgi-bin/pbrand.dll/FIAT_COM/showroom/showroom.jsp?BV_SessionID=@@@@0409645356.1292848558@@@@&BV_EngineID=ccceademfledkficefecejgdfkhdfji.0&modelKey=150), BMW Mini (http://www.mini.com/mini_worldwide/mini_worldwide.html), Yaris (http://www.toyota.com/yaris/)and Fiesta (http://www.ford.com/cars/fiesta/)lately). Great cars, especially the Mini, and they relatively easily reach sub 5 litres per 100 km (over 50mpg) in real world use. Problem is, those trips are maybe half of my car mileage. The other half involves hauling more stuff, heavier stuff, more people or all of these. So, if I ever owned a car, it would probably be a smallish station wagon kind of deal. I'm a member in a car share system, they use Skoda Fabia Combis (http://new.skoda-auto.com/com/model/newfabiacombi/look/Pages/look.aspx). Sensible roomy car, definitely nothing exciting about it, but it seems to tolerate the hugely varying drivers in the car share system quite well. Reasonable fuel economy too (but again, nothing spectacular).

The way diesel cars are taxed here, one would have to drive around 20 000 kms per year to make it financially sensible. I'm nowhere close to that mileage. That's also the main reason I've never actually owned a car.

Someone mentioned motorcycles. Around where I live, insurance costs for those are huge, in the range of 1000-1500e per year easily. Combine that with our climate, and they're not really an option for everyday transportation.

--J

I don't quite get why diesel isn't bigger in the US. I realise it's more expensive than regular gas but based on cars in the UK it's worth paying the extra for the fuel economy.Here something like a Toyota RAV4 with a petrol engine gets about 20-25mpg but the same car with a diesel engine gets more like 40-45mpg. (Our gallons are bigger than US gallons so the numbers you guys over the water see might be lower, but the ratio between them should be comparable).

.

The answer may be simpler than you might expect. Particulates produced by diesel are greater than those produced by gas vehicles. At least in all states that ascribe to California CARB standards Diesel has to be as clean as a relatively dirty car and many new cars have now reached a standard called PZERO. To clean diesels enough to come close to these standards they have to add particulate traps and here comes catch 22. If the particulate trap is required to meet smog standards it must have a warrantee of 100,000 miles before servicing. To meet these standards diesels cost a lot more than a small compact car and the fuel itself cost more than gas. To make up the difference takes longer than the average American keeps a car. Diesel trucks and SUVs are pretty popular however because they have a smog exemption at 2/4 ton or better.
The short answer is Government standards and air quality combine to make life hard on diesel in the US.
Or so I have read but I have owned a diesel truck.

So strict emissions laws allow a 12mpg muscle car but not a 60mpg diesel car? Odd... even taking into account the difference in the particles coming out of a diesel I find that odd.

Comparing a regular sized car to an equivalent car with a diesel engine often results in fuel savings that would take tens of thousands of miles to recoup the original investment. But where larger vehicles are concerned (and in this context "larger" means something the size of a Toyota RAV-4 or Honda CRV) the diesels can do literally double the distance per gallon, so it doesn't take long to recover the premiums paid.

A friend of mine in the US traded a monstrous great Dodge RAM pickup with a diesel engine for something he could probably have parked on the back of his Dodge, hoping to save some money on his fuel bills. He found the smaller pickup offered him far less flexibility and didn't save him anything at all in fuel.

So strict emissions laws allow a 12mpg muscle car but not a 60mpg diesel car? Odd... even taking into account the difference in the particles coming out of a diesel I find that odd.

Comparing a regular sized car to an equivalent car with a diesel engine often results in fuel savings that would take tens of thousands of miles to recoup the original investment. But where larger vehicles are concerned (and in this context "larger" means something the size of a Toyota RAV-4 or Honda CRV) the diesels can do literally double the distance per gallon, so it doesn't take long to recover the premiums paid.

A friend of mine in the US traded a monstrous great Dodge RAM pickup with a diesel engine for something he could probably have parked on the back of his Dodge, hoping to save some money on his fuel bills. He found the smaller pickup offered him far less flexibility and didn't save him anything at all in fuel.

To put it simply yes the clean air restrictions for our air standards are pretty high for particulates. They have suggested lowering them to the same standards that Europe now uses because it would be stricter on CO-2 but the environmental movement in the US would have a fit. That is why the US is starting to move towards Hybrids and EVs rather than diesels.
And like the poster asked earlier the old Mini cooper left these shores because of bumper crash standards. They sold them in Canada for years after they left here and people in the US would covertly cross the border and replace all of the ID plates on their old coopers and have them attached to newer ones. But they were not legally imported.

To put it simply yes the clean air restrictions for our air standards are pretty high for particulates. They have suggested lowering them to the same standards that Europe now uses because it would be stricter on CO-2 but the environmental movement in the US would have a fit. That is why the US is starting to move towards Hybrids and EVs rather than diesels.
And like the poster asked earlier the old Mini cooper left these shores because of bumper crash standards. They sold them in Canada for years after they left here and people in the US would covertly cross the border and replace all of the ID plates on their old coopers and have them attached to newer ones. But they were not legally imported.

Are those laws nationwide, or specific to California? The reason I ask is I've seen so much smoke belching from trucks in eastern parts of the US it seems odd to be talking about how strict the emissions laws are.

Are those laws nationwide, or specific to California? The reason I ask is I've seen so much smoke belching from trucks in eastern parts of the US it seems odd to be talking about how strict the emissions laws are.

There are several states that ascribe to California air standards because they are about the strictest in the nation. They are not the majority however. We have special gas that is lower in sulfur and it naturally costs more. Most of our belching trucks have to use a different diesel when in these states as well but their standards are controlled by the Federal government as long as they are not registered in a State like California. Cars even have to be certified for California specially to be registered here. There has been a movement to phase out diesel busses and convert to natural gas. California even made the heavy construction industry get cleaner diesels but they sold all of that heavy equipment to China so it hasn’t made a big difference in world pollution.
How does California get away with it if there are federal standards? Because California had their air quality board first well before the Feds. If bio fuel becomes more available diesel in this country for passenger cars could see an increase but unless that happens we will more than likely not see that many diesels unless they come in a hybrid format.

I can appreciate the perception problem. Despite the fuel economy offerings I was a little wary of a diesel car having seen (and heard) so many small cars that rattled like huge vans.

When gas went to $4/gallon back in June 2008 and people were stuck with their huge SUVs they couldn't afford to put fuel in them and couldn't sell because nobody else wanted to pay top dollar for a 12mpg car, I'm surprised that the number of SUVs on the road still seems to be rising even though gas has eased off from the highs. Even with bad experiences in the past I'd have thought more people would be interested in at least giving diesel another chance.

From my (limited) experience of Americans and their attitudes to motoring it seems people are aware that diesel is more expensive than petrol but don't factor in the difference in fuel mileage. If you pay 20% more per gallon but get 75% more miles per gallon then, all else being equal, it's a good investment.

Very few if any small diesels available in the US. AFAIK Volkswagen and possibly Audi are the only small diesels available, and they are at a premium, a base Jetta retails for ~$19k usd the diesel is $5k more. Otherwise you only get them in 3/4 ton trucks and larger.

Aaron :)

My car isn't quite as small as the ones in the original poster's article and video. I'm driving a 2001 Honda Civic with a low odometer reading. The fuel economy, however, is amazing. According to my calculations, I can get close to 40 miles to the U.S. gallon in highway driving. A car that efficient fits in well with my vision of car-light living, as well as with my concept of a frugal, responsible lifestyle.

I have a '92 Sentra (yet to be registered / insured) that cranks out a whopping 120 hp but does carry 5 and has decent luggage capacity which is good as I bought it for taking much longer trips with the family.


how have you gotten away for so many years without registration and insurance? I rode around like that for about a year, always peering over my shoulder paranoid, avoiding driving at night when I can't see cops as well. Then one day coming home late from an old crappy travelling salesman job, I got bent over good by one of three cops in the same cop infested neighborhood. Set me back $950! :mad:
That was the last straw that convinced me to ditch the car and getting something that doesn't require gas, insurance, and registration. I briefly considered mopeds but I settled on a bike.

how have you gotten away for so many years without registration and insurance? I rode around like that for about a year, always peering over my shoulder paranoid, avoiding driving at night when I can't see cops as well. Then one day coming home late from an old crappy travelling salesman job, I got bent over good by one of three cops in the same cop infested neighborhood. Set me back $950! :mad:
That was the last straw that convinced me to ditch the car and getting something that doesn't require gas, insurance, and registration. I briefly considered mopeds but I settled on a bike.

I don't think he drives it.

I have a 1963 Dodge truck that hasn't been licensed in over 10 years, it runs and we drive it around on the farm. It never leaves private property. I think we still pay a pittance in taxes on it.

Aaron :)

I don't think he drives it.

I have a 1963 Dodge truck that hasn't been licensed in over 10 years, it runs and we drive it around on the farm. It never leaves private property. I think we still pay a pittance in taxes on it.

Aaron :)

My sister had a 1960-something VW van in her driveway. The engine was sitting in the rotted out back seat, and there was a sapling growing out of it. One day a guy driving by her house stopped and gave her $800 cash for it.

My sister had a 1960-something VW van in her driveway. The engine was sitting in the rotted out back seat, and there was a sapling growing out of it. One day a guy driving by her house stopped and gave her $800 cash for it.

Hold onto something long enough and it goes from junk to antique or collectible :D

Aaron :)

It would be great if tiny cars were available for sale in the USA. If it is OK for people to select riding a motorcycle on the highways why wouldn't it be acceptable for people to choose tiny cars that get great gas mileage? In a way they would be a bit safer than motorcycles due to having at least three wheels which eliminates the need to balance on slick roads.

If I were a welder I'd have already built a three wheeler using a motor scooter motor and transmission. With a good aerodynamic fiberglass body it would get even better mileage than the original scooter even though it would weigh triple.

I'm really getting tired of pedaling in below freezing weather this year. I'm to the point that if the temperatures are in the twenties I'm happy that I don't need to wear a second layer of pants. We've had too many days near zero already this winter and the coldest months are yet to come.

In Montana any ATV four wheeler with a headlight and brake light can be registered for highway use. I considered doing that but I could buy a good used car for the price of one of those things. Even the good used ones cost $2500. I'd prefer a cheap car over an ATV.

I remember being pretty happy with the 56 hp my Beetle cranked out and was even more happy with the 30-35 mpg it got... that was a '71 Super.

I had a 63 hp '95 Ford Aspire that never got less than 30 mpg over about 10 years, even in the city. Not the most awesome car when it came to status, but it was always reliable. Sometimes I wish I still had it.

Frankly I think most cars would be just fine in normal traffic with less than 100 hp.


It will take a fairly big cultural shift for people to really embrace smaller cars as their primary vehicle as they have been sold the "bigger is better" for a very long time and the small car has been relegated to the entry level / second vehicle niche for many.

Funny thing-- I'm a pretty big guy- 6'2"- and out of all the cars I've owned, they've all been compact or subcompact except for my wife's current Ford Taurus, a '72 Dart I bought as a second car many years ago, and (depending on how you classify it) my current Hyundai Elantra (which is generally classed with compacts but is technically a mid-size according to the EPA based on interior room). I plan to keep the Elantra for a while but when I do replace it, it will be with a smaller car, something like a Fiesta.

A Citroen ad that is playing here on TV at the moment. Could only find french version.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vo5xM24YkRU

I find it hard to believe that a 60mpg diesel car from Europe can possibly produce more pollution than a 12mpg petrol muscle car from Detroit.

I became car free when I moved to California, which has some very tight pollution control standards. The car which I drove prior to the move was a VW Jetta TDI (Diesel). I got 50mpg of diesel fuel. One of the issues is that this is listed as a car, and as such has to meet car emission standards, which include a limit for particulates, which the older VWs did not meet (2010 model year TDIs do meet this standard). One of the strange things is that many people drive vehicles as their personal 'cars' which are classified legally as trucks - these would include things such as the Ford F-350 Turbodiesel pickup truck (400hp), or an Escalade SUV. Since technically these aren't cars, they don't need to meet fuel efficiency standards. Ford has a video available in which they boast about the great fuel efficiency of their vehicle at 19mpg here (http://www.ford.com/trucks/superduty/). In my opinion, there should be far higher registration fees for trucks vs cars to compensate for the environmental cost, and this might make trucks less attractive as everyday commuter vehicles.

Funny thing-- I'm a pretty big guy- 6'2"- and out of all the cars I've owned, they've all been compact or subcompact except for my wife's current Ford Taurus, a '72 Dart I bought as a second car many years ago, and (depending on how you classify it) my current Hyundai Elantra (which is generally classed with compacts but is technically a mid-size according to the EPA based on interior room). I plan to keep the Elantra for a while but when I do replace it, it will be with a smaller car, something like a Fiesta.
When I bought my car, I was initially looking at something smaller, but the driver's seat did not go back far enough. My knees would push against the dash and steering wheel. I'm 6'1" and while I have long arms and legs, I'm not abnormally proportioned. The cramped quarters in some cars surprised me.

What I don't get is why this forum seems to miss the whole motorcycle/moped/scooter. I have a moped for fun, and a motorcycle for getting myself long distance which would be otherwise impractical to bike. It takes just as much time as driving, but costs a lot less gas. Insurance is pretty cheap if you buy something small and economical instead of a sport bike. A used motorcycle is pretty cheap, and new is a lot cheaper than a car. Unless you need to move lots of stuff/people I don't see a reason why you'd need a car for commuting over a motorcycle(well unless you're afraid of weather).

another :thumb: for this one. This is what I do. I have a bicycle that I use for normal commuting and bike/bus combo commuting. However, for the tines I have to do something unusual (e.g. Monday I had to go to San Francisco to apply for a visa and on Thursday, tomorrow, I ill have to return to pick it up [no, they will not mail it back]) I use my motorcycle. Sure, its 4-5 hours each way, but it is the same time in a car.

As far as the cold, I have good riding gear. So, for the limited motor transport I need, I get about 50mpg and my insurance is about $16mo. The few times I need to move something large, there is U-Haul. The cost of a rental truck 3-4 times per year (not even that much this last year) is a lot less than the cost of owning my own truck.

another :thumb: for this one. This is what I do. I have a bicycle that I use for normal commuting and bike/bus combo commuting. However, for the tines I have to do something unusual (e.g. Monday I had to go to San Francisco to apply for a visa and on Thursday, tomorrow, I ill have to return to pick it up [no, they will not mail it back]) I use my motorcycle. Sure, its 4-5 hours each way, but it is the same time in a car.

As far as the cold, I have good riding gear. So, for the limited motor transport I need, I get about 50mpg and my insurance is about $16mo. The few times I need to move something large, there is U-Haul. The cost of a rental truck 3-4 times per year (not even that much this last year) is a lot less than the cost of owning my own truck.

I'd like to see you try this trip in Michigan. I'm 55 years old and I have literally never seen a motorcycle on a Michigan road in January. I see dozens of bicycles every day, on the other hand.

I'd like to see you try this trip in Michigan. I'm 55 years old and I have literally never seen a motorcycle on a Michigan road in January. I see dozens of bicycles every day, on the other hand.

Of course you have a point, when I pulled out of the garage on Monday it was a balmy 31f. My coldest long ride (which is about the only reason I ride) without a heated liner was 13f. I like to toss on the heated liner once it gets to 40f and I know it is good for <0f, I have done it.

As far as not many riders in the winter, I see that too. I have heard the reasons from some and they quickly start sounding like the reason for not riding a bicycle for trips where they are most appropriate.

As far as riding on ice and snow, I have seen that I do about as well on my motorcycle as the people around me are doing in their cars and light trucks. As far as seeing more bicycles, that makes sense, you ride a bicycle, ignoring the psychological principle, it also means that you are in places where a bicycle is a highly appropriate mode of transportation.