Road Cycling - The Best Steel

Thought I'd start by asking a the experts!

I've been rididng a beautiful tommasini Sintesi for almost 10 years and unfortunatly it lost a head on battle with an open car door. My wife has given me permission to upgrade and my first thought was to buy another Sintesi. Then one of the OCLV guys in my group showed up with a Steelman--and loves it so much he's ditching his Trek for only bad weather rides--It doesn't quite fit me but the quick parking lot ride I took on it was impressive.

So given the choice--What would you guys get--the Tommasini or the Steelman? And any other retro-grouches out there have any other high end steel they'd recomend??

thanks,
J

I'll need to dust both of mine off and give them a good ride before I can you a definitive answer....tough choice. :)

And very personal. Seems you are the one best qualified to answer the question, given your solid point of reference on the Sintesi. Will your friend allow you to take the Steelman for an extended ride?

55/Rad

And any other retro-grouches out there have any other high end steel they'd recomend??

thanks,
J


http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=photos/2003/tech/features/PRGW/bike_ch1825


Any chance I get......... :D (Am i as bad as "Bianchi Rider"? :D )

I recently bought a 2004 Cervelo Superprodigy, and it's FANTASTIC. It's one of these, but this one has slightly longer, custom chain-stays, most likely built for the cobbles in Europe.

http://www.cervelo.com/bikes/SPG.html

I researched this for a long time. I decided early on I wanted steel, and I bought this because of reputation/reviews, price, weight, looks, and the clincher for me was that the frames comes with a Columbus Muscle (full) carbon fork, Cervelo carbon seat post, and a Cane Creek S2 head-set.

Most of all, it was probably the price. I think they are now selling in the U.S. for about $900, which is reasonable for a "brand name" bike made with Columbus Foco steel. Try getting anything else in Foco for that price. :)

Seriously...if you want steel, stop looking, and GET ONE OF THESE!!

(i'm such a geek :o )

Thanks for the response

I'm kind of at a loss-the guy with the Steelman is a few inches shorter, and my old sintesi was actually a little too big so I'm screwed for comparison. I'd love to test ride both new but I don't think I'll be going to california or Italy soon.

So what's your favorite bike overall, since you have both??? And if you've got to dust them off--have you found something you like better??

that would mean a ton--thanks

THAT IS A SEXY SOULFULL LOOKING BIKE

what made you dcide on that other than price?

Great Steel rides

Serotta, the CIII could be one of the best buys going (if you don't mind
non lugged steel frames) I have a Serotta and am VERY biased.
Dave Kirk (getting very popular might be long wait).
Vanilla
J.P. Weigle
Richard Sachs (figure 1 1/2 to 2 year wait)
Pegoretti

I've always liked Tommasini, thought they were the "cadillac of bikes" you know plush.

Marty

Any chance I get......... :D (Am i as bad as "Bianchi Rider"? :D )

I recently bought a 2004 Cervelo Superprodigy, and it's FANTASTIC. It's one of these, but this one has slightly longer, custom chain-stays, most likely built for the cobbles in Europe:http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=photos/2003/tech/features/PRGW/bike_ch1825

http://www.cervelo.com/bikes/SPG.html

I researched this for a long time. I decided early on I wanted steel, and I bought this because of reputation/reviews, price, weight, looks, and the clincher for me was that the frames comes with a Columbus Muscle (full) carbon fork, Cervelo carbon seat post, and a Cane Creek S2 head-set.

Most of all, it was probably the price. I think they are now selling in the U.S. for about $900, which is reasonable for a "brand name" bike made with Columbus Foco steel. Try getting anything else in Foco for that price. :)

Seriously...if you want steel, stop looking, and GET ONE OF THESE

900 for the whole bike? Wow. I knew they had the superprodigy frames in sale at excel sports a while ago, but I forget how much they cost...

THAT IS A SEXY SOULFULL LOOKING BIKE

what made you dcide on that other than price?

I appologize to those who've heard this 1000 times......... :D

There's a company in Germany (EFBe) who conduct fatigue tests on bike frames, and
I was first drawn to the Cervelos when I noticed that they had produced two of only
three or four steel frames to ever pass any level of this test:
http://www.efbe.de/defbefrm.htm (click on "English version", then "Road frames New 10/2004"). Scroll down the table to see the frames that have passed. There's been some controversy over the testing
procedures, but I'm still impressed. So, I thought, if I want a light steel frame, I might as well get one that seems to be strong.

You'll notice there are many other Cervelos (carbon and alu) on the EFBe table.

I'm also impressed with the way they seem to have garnered a fantastic reputation, yet they've
only been building road frames for about 5 or 6 years.


I could go on....... :D

900 for the whole bike? Wow. I knew they had the superprodigy frames in sale at excel sports a while ago, but I forget how much they cost...

No, it's about $900 for a frame, fork, carbon post, and head-set........maybe $980

No, it's about $900 for a frame, fork, carbon post, and head-set........maybe $980


The whole bike is about $19O0, with Ultegra and Shimano wheels

.

I'm also impressed with the way they seem to have garnered a fantastic reputation, yet they've
only been building road frames for about 5 or 6 years.


I could go on....... :D


I checked out the manufacturer's web site and I am impressed. I have only seen Cervelo's tri-geek bikes, and I assumed that was all they were good at. Nearest LBS is too far away. Anybody know any mail order companies that stock superprodigies?

I checked out the manufacturer's web site and I am impressed. I have only seen Cervelo's tri-geek bikes, and I assumed that was all they were good at. Nearest LBS is too far away. Anybody know any mail order companies that stock superprodigies?

NO NO NO NO :D ...They even have a team in the Tour de France. The Superprodigy was the most recent steel bike to be used on the pro European tour be Team CSC

gvhbikes.com has a pegoretti on their special deals page.

Pegoretti Palosanto w/Shimano Ultegra 9spd and full carbon fork...$2095

good looking complete bike - just thought i'd put it out there since somebody mentioned peg's and they're hot.

the cervelo looks great as well. sounds like you should have fun shopping. =)

i would with a full custom frame. steelman even chooses the tubes based on your size and riding style... plus that non lugged steel fork and stem are really neat.

...So what's your favorite bike overall, since you have both??? And if you've got to dust them off--have you found something you like better??
I was joking - I don't have either. But if I did, I doubt they would collect dust....

Sorry for the confusion.

55/Rad

I just checked out a bunch of non-custom steel frames and the Superprodigy was on my list of things to try. But no one around here carries it, just their tri bikes. Of the steel ones I rode:

Colnago Classic - caddy like. Very smooth, but felt slightly heavy. Not a racer.
Bianchi Imola/Vigorelli - Nice frame, not as smooth as the Colnago but felt more responsive. Great bike to put miles on and do some non-aggressive riding.
Fuji Roubaix Pro - ditto, maybe a little more race appeal. My wife purchased one and likes it.
2003 Lemond Zurich - Not steel anymore but nice ride. You need to like their geometry and have to deal with the cantankerous Greg.
Litespeed Solano and Firenze - Okay, Ti not steel but close enough. Very uninspiring bikes but good. I feel they're overpriced.
Bianchi Virata - This is the bike I bought. Not a complete steel bike with the carbon stays. A wonderful ride. Light and responsive and has a wonderful supple ride. The ride is less harsh than all the other steel bikes I rode but still is quick, light, and can climb. Imagine the smooth feel of steel without the flex and the extra weight usually associated with steel frames. I rode a Giant TCR2 and that was the only bike that was obviously quicker. This includes the Felt bikes, the Specialized Roubaix's, the Fuji Team, Bianchi Giro, Colnago Active, and other aluminum/carbon bikes. Plus now the Virata comes in Celeste.

I also looked at Gunnar's and Serotta's but decided I'm not going to buy a bike unridden. They sound like they're good bikes.

Waterford, custom fit, ride tuned to your interests and ambitions.
In terms of off-the-shelf bikes, there is every kind of flavor you can imagine. You want tough? There's the 6 POUND Italian frame Lance rode in a TDF. The thing's a tank, but a fast one. If you can afford
custom, that's a real nice way to go. You get a bike made for someone your weight, your size, and with your riding habits. The basic Waterford frame is 1300 or 1400, something like that. I need to convince my wife I can't live without one. Car door, hmmm...

Take a look at the Bianchi Virata. Steel Dedacciai EOM tubing and a Black Tail/Black Box integrated carbon rear end. I own one and it's one heck of a sweet ride. Take it for a ride, you'll know what I'm talking about.

http://www.bianchiusa.com/563.html

Any chance I get......... :D (Am i as bad as "Bianchi Rider"? :D )

I recently bought a 2004 Cervelo Superprodigy, and it's FANTASTIC. It's one of these, but this one has slightly longer, custom chain-stays, most likely built for the cobbles in Europe:http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=photos/2003/tech/features/PRGW/bike_ch1825

http://www.cervelo.com/bikes/SPG.html

I researched this for a long time. I decided early on I wanted steel, and I bought this because of reputation/reviews, price, weight, looks, and the clincher for me was that the frames comes with a Columbus Muscle (full) carbon fork, Cervelo carbon seat post, and a Cane Creek S2 head-set.

Most of all, it was probably the price. I think they are now selling in the U.S. for about $900, which is reasonable for a "brand name" bike made with Columbus Foco steel. Try getting anything else in Foco for that price. :)

Seriously...if you want steel, stop looking, and GET ONE OF THESE


THat super prodigy is down right racey looking. I love steel frames. How much does the steel frame weigh?

Anyway, My future project code named "ultimate Speed Weapon" will most likely involve a frame like this mated to a DA 7800 Drivetrain (and of course the beloved DA 7800 180mm torque monster cranks). I love the style of that frame along with the lemonds.

THAT IS A SEXY SOULFULL LOOKING BIKE

what made you decide on that other than price?

Oh yeah, on the look: I love that retro nickel plating on the rear triangle. It reminds me of the old bikes with the chrome rear.

Take a look at the Bianchi Virata. Steel Dedacciai EOM tubing and a Black Tail/Black Box integrated carbon rear end. I own one and it's one heck of a sweet ride. Take it for a ride, you'll know what I'm talking about.

http://www.bianchiusa.com/563.html

I'd like to echo this comment, I love my Virata, it is one sweet ride.

Plus the 2005 comes in celeste... mmmmmm, tasty.

THat super prodigy is down right racey looking. I love steel frames. How much does the steel frame weigh?.My 58cm Cervelo weighs 1687g without the fork (3.7lbs), which compares favourably with all other steels frames, and also a lot of aluminiums, especially considering it has a slightly over-sized downtube, and quite chunky stays.

I'm such a geek, i put it on Weight Weenies: :D http://weightweenies.starbike.com/listings/components.php?type=roadframes





Anyway, My future project code named "ultimate Speed Weapon" will most likely involve a frame like this mated to a DA 7800 Drivetrain (and of course the beloved DA 7800 180mm torque monster cranks). I love the style of that frame along with the lemonds. I must admit, while the Cervelo is stiff for a steel frame, it's not as stiff as aluminium.

I'll chime in here with the Jamis line. I ride a 2005 Jamis Quest. Love it! if you want carbon seat & chain stays, then look at the Eclipse. Check them out at http://www.jamisbikes.com

http://www.gtc-mhc.org/n7cz/pics/BFjamis1.jpg

Anyway, My future project code named "ultimate Speed Weapon" will most likely involve a frame like this mated to a DA 7800 Drivetrain (and of course the beloved DA 7800 180mm torque monster cranks). I love the style of that frame along with the lemonds.Have you decided on steel? That's why I keep asking you what distance you wanna focus on. :)

531Aussie, You ride 58cm also. That's what I saw on weight weenies table.

Color Scheme is perfect. You may see me build up one of those over the winter.

Rear Triangle looks awesome.

To be honest with you. I want to do fast centuries. I just like riding long distances more than anything else(just becasue I like being on my bike) . I'm probably faster short range though.

Steel is probably not the best material for super fast times. If I was seriosly trying to set records I would have a some crazy carbon fiber disc wheel machine (loaded with carbon fiber widgets)

Steel makes a good training bike though.

531Aussie, You ride 58cm also. That's what I saw on weight weenies table.

Color Scheme is perfect. You may see me build up one of those over the winter.

Rear Triangle looks awesome.Yeah, that's my Cervelo on there, and also my Scapin KSE, and I also put my old Raleigh on there, partly as a joke, but they included it. Note tha my 1988 Raleigh 531 is not all that heavy at 1864g (4.1lbs), especially considereing it is lugged.

I forgot to mention that the steel Cervelos, in line with being "classic", has a 1" steerer -- I would've prefered a 1"1/8. There can apparently be flex issues if you have the bars up too high. LeMonds have 1"1/8 headtubes

Yeah, that's my Cervelo on there, and also my Scapin KSE, and I also put my old Raleigh on there, partly as a joke, but they included it. Note tha my 1988 Raleigh 531 is not all that heavy at 1864g (4.1lbs), especially considereing it is lugged.

I forgot to mention that the steel Cervelos, in line with being "classic", has a 1" steerer -- I would've prefered a 1"1/8. There can apparently be flex issues if you have the bars up too high. LeMonds have 1"1/8 headtubes

I have 1" steerer on my bike right now. The good thing about the 180 cranks is I could lower my bar down because I lowered my seat a little. Actually After adjusting my seat forward too...I was able to get the bars down really low eliminating the flex problems I had before.

1" is OK.

Wish you had pictures?

To be honest with you. I want to do fast centuries. I just like riding long distances more than anything else(just becasue I like being on my bike) . I'm probably faster short range though.
. What about the "hour record" -- a nice comprimise, and very prestigious :)

I partly had you in mind when I posted the "hour" data the other day:http://www.bikecult.com/bikecultbook/sports_recordsHour.html
This table has all the tech info on all the hour records. I think you've seen it.

Note that Rominger had a steel bike, and Boardman used 170mm cranks!! But, who knows.... :)

Steel is real, baby! (http://steelisreal.com)

What about the "hour record" -- a nice comprimise, and very prestigious :)

I partly had you in mind when I posted the "hour" data the other day:http://www.bikecult.com/bikecultbook/sports_recordsHour.html
This table has all the tech info on all the hour records. I think you've seen it.

Note that Rominger had a steel bike, and Boardman used 170mm cranks!! But, who knows.... :)

1 hour record is something to shoot for ;) Maybe I'll put in an all out effort and actually see how close I can come to it just for the hell of it. Fat Hack, You know I'm BSing obviously half the time (make that 75% of the time....uhh....make that 90% of the time), but I'll actually train for it. See what happens. What do I have to lose?

Yeah no kidding I know it's prestigious considering Indurain was the prior record holder and 5-time tour de france winner.

I'd like to echo this comment, I love my Virata, it is one sweet ride.

Plus the 2005 comes in celeste... mmmmmm, tasty.

I have to admit I stopped even looking at Bianchis years ago when they started making alu bikes. Plus I'm enough of a tradionalist-weenie to not even consider a bike truly a bianchi unless it's Celeste. I'm not sure about the carbon rear triangle though. That I will have to test ride.

That Cervelo looks so sweet I'll probably dream about it tonight.

Y'all rock. You totally took my decision from between two bikes to about 20--nice. My wife will probably ban me from this website.

I'm still in shock that 531Aussie bought the Cervelo because of the bullsh!t Efbe or whatever test, but I'll leave that for now and maybe flame him via e-mail later :)

The basic answer is that there is probably 100 companies that can weld together a steel frame as well as one another. Sure, there may be differences, but lets face it, unless you know as much as they do about putting a frame together, you won't be able to pick the nuances.
So what's left? Well, you have the design of the bike, the geometry, how it handles etc. You have the philosophy/personality of the company/owner, and how that is reflected in the bikes. You have the construction technique - welded, brazed, lugged etc. There are many factors, although consumers decisions are often based on appearance, marketing, peer pressure, and other factors which have pretty much nothing to do with the bike.

This is the thing that freaks me out the most - people comparing utterly different bikes. "I don't know whether to get a Waterford or a Seven." WTF is up with that? They're not even comparable.

If you want to pick the best bike for you, perhaps try writing down what you are after. Pick a price point, get on the phone and on the web and start asking questions. Eventually that list of 20 you have will be wittled down to three, and if you've covered all the bases, you'll end up with a great steel frame that you'll enjoy every time you pull it out of the shed.

Why is no one mentioning the Colnago Master X-Light? It has that great Colnago paint job, chromed stays and wonderfully engraved lugs. Paired with a chromed steel fork, this is a great looking, smooth, quick and comfortable bike.

Sure I'm biased but I ride a bike just like this over some really harsh road conditions and it has never let me down. Its rock solid on those curvy descents and spins up really fast on the flats. It could be lighter but hey, if you want light, buy carbon. :D

"Waterford, custom fit, ride tuned to your interests and ambitions", was posted by Late. I agree. Waterford offers enough choices to please just about anyone. The frames can be lugged 853 for the traditionalists that wants a lighter steel, TIG welded 853, lugged or welded 531, and the super light True Temper full race frame that builds to a complete steel bike in under 16lbs!

Custom steel. People like Steelman, Sachs, JP Wiegle, Stephen Bilenky, Waterford, Landshark, Serrota, Independent Fab will all choose each tube individually based on your style and preferences. I plan to have a Bilenky steel made in the next few months or so. Almost any of these folks - and custom frame makers in general - can make you a wicked frame out of steel that you'll have forever! Waterford advertises on their website a complete custom steel bike in the range of 16.5 pounds. I'm short and light and I bet a 3-3.5lb steel frame is possible for me - figure easily in the 17-18lb range with Dura-Ace or Record components. My carbon bike with mixed Ultegra and Dura-Ace weighs just under 18.5lb.

I'm still in shock that 531Aussie bought the Cervelo because of the bullsh!t Efbe or whatever test, but I'll leave that for now and maybe flame him via e-mail later :)
. I was partly trying to drag you back out of the woodwork. :) You've been quiet

I always have you in the back of my mind when ever I mention EFBe

Why is no one mentioning the Colnago Master X-Light? It has that great Colnago paint job, chromed stays and wonderfully engraved lugs. Paired with a chromed steel fork, this is a great looking, smooth, quick and comfortable bike.
:D
They sure are sexy, but they're way too expensive where I come from. The cheapest one I've ever seen one was on the Australian Colnago "warehouse sale" site (http://www.colnago.com.au/ divide Aus prices by 1.4 to convert to US) which was about $1260 US. They're normally over $2000 US

i feel great on my steelman. i am sending it back to him soon as he will repair some nicks and resticker and repaint the frame for $225. i love the personal service and attention. with 20,000 miles (almost) on it i can safely say i'd buy it all over again.
the geometry fits me well too.

They sure are sexy, but they're way too expensive where I come from. The cheapest I've ever seen one was on the Australian Colnago "warehouse sale" site (http://www.colnago.com.au/ divide Aus prices by 1.4 to convert to US) which was about $1260 US. They're normally over $2000 US

I managed to pick up mine barely used for around $900 US. If you are willing to buy used there are a lot of great deals available.

Also they may be cheaper now as Colnago has decided to discontinue the line. A true shame.

if your budget allows ....get another tommasini

i have a carbo-fire and really enjoy it

my lbs is also the importer now and they really know their stuff. i get to see all their frames up close and they are still beautifully made

look at www.tommasiniusa.com or at www.granfondocycles.com (the shop site)

ask for lynn (the owner) if you call

Nicest bike I've ever ridden is my dad's Rivendell. He got it cheap because it was one of Grant's prototypes - it's reynolds 753, very responsive and yet also somehow really stable and comfortable. I can descend faster on it than on any other bike I've ridden because you can really trust it. It's not going to break any speed records but if you're planning on riding a lot it's basically perfect.

I'm still in shock that 531Aussie bought the Cervelo because of the bullsh!t Efbe or whatever test, but I'll leave that for now and maybe flame him via e-mail later :)

The basic answer is that there is probably 100 companies that can weld together a steel frame as well as one another. Sure, there may be differences, but lets face it, unless you know as much as they do about putting a frame together, you won't be able to pick the nuances.
So what's left? Well, you have the design of the bike, the geometry, how it handles etc. You have the philosophy/personality of the company/owner, and how that is reflected in the bikes. You have the construction technique - welded, brazed, lugged etc. There are many factors, although consumers decisions are often based on appearance, marketing, peer pressure, and other factors which have pretty much nothing to do with the bike.

This is the thing that freaks me out the most - people comparing utterly different bikes. "I don't know whether to get a Waterford or a Seven." WTF is up with that? They're not even comparable.

If you want to pick the best bike for you, perhaps try writing down what you are after. Pick a price point, get on the phone and on the web and start asking questions. Eventually that list of 20 you have will be wittled down to three, and if you've covered all the bases, you'll end up with a great steel frame that you'll enjoy every time you pull it out of the shed.

THe Cervelo super prodigy looks awesome!!

Honestly though there are so many variables that go into frame building that not one of us can determine which is the best simply by perusing the tubing diameter and frame material on the spec sheet. To even somewhat compare frames requires a fairly good knowledge of mechanical engineering not to mention knowledge of the specific properties of a brand of steel tubing.

It is very difficult for me to determine which steel frame is better. I go by geometry, reviews, weight, looks and price to help me determine which frame is best for me.

I'm not sure why you don't like the Cervelo (or maybe you do like it), but it seems like a great value in a frame and fork combo. Nice Asthetics are a definite plus.

Before the Cervelo Super Prodigy I was shooting for a Colnago Crystal (from GVH bikes) for my training bike--->Steel frame and chrome fork with chrome strays for only $795.

I'm curious to hear back why you don't like the Cervelo Super Prodigy.

THe Cervelo super prodigy looks awesome!!
It is very difficult for me to determine which steel frame is better. I go by geometry, reviews, weight, looks and price to help me determine which frame is best for me.. I went through all these variables, and came up with the Cervelo. Some people may not like that it is welded by a machine in Taiwan, but it doesn't bother me if it means the frame is affordable. Cervelo's earlier steel frame ("Cervelo Renaissance") which was hand made in Canada (or the US), 'retailed' in Australia for about $3000 US (frame only)!!! The Superprodigy is less than half that.





I'm curious to hear back why you don't like the Cervelo Super Prodigy. Thylacine doesn't have a problem at all with the Cervelos. He has a problem with silly people like me making decisions on bike purchases based (partly) on the EFBe tests. I think he also has a problem with frame companies saying: "rah, rah, rah...our frame is great because it passed the EFBe test." So, his issue is more with the EFBe testing...........and ME! :D

I think.

THe Cervelo super prodigy looks awesome!!

I'm curious to hear back why you don't like the Cervelo Super Prodigy.

Hey I was checking out a bikeshop in a city I was passing through, and wouldn't you know it they have a Superprod on display there, that bike is even sweeter in person and has an unbelievably light heft to it. I didn't get a chance to ride it, but I plan on taking it for a test ride if the weather improves.

I found out I have a new baby on the way, so it looks like I'll be waiting a little while (like 18 years) to replace my Tommassini. The heartbreaker is that it's fairly tricked out--full Ultegra ,carbon seat-post and spacers, it's my size (56cm), and it's on sale for $1750. Unfortunatly, I haven't even got $17.50 to my name, now-so it'll go to somebody else *sigh*.

Out of curiousity, the owner says that 2004 is the last year that Cervelo will be making the Superprodigy, I don't know if there's any truth to that, but if I were Cervelo I'd think twice--They need to market a little more to mainstream cyclists and not just the triathletes. It really looks like they have a gem on their hands.

I'm extremely satisfied with my Seven Axiom Steel. I purchased it through my LBS, so I was able to get a great custom steel bike AND preserve (and build) my relationship with my neighborhood shop.

http://www.sevencycles.com

Out of curiousity, the owner says that 2004 is the last year that Cervelo will be making the Superprodigy, I don't know if there's any truth to that, but if I were Cervelo I'd think twice--They need to market a little more to mainstream cyclists and not just the triathletes. It really looks like they have a gem on their hands.
OOh, that's me :D

I emailed Cervelo about future steel models, thinking that if I waited a year I might get something better, and the exact reply from the company was: "there are no plans at this stage to bring out a 2005 steel model".

So, I got one straight away

A Mondonico Foco...


Taken from www.torelli.com -

Made entirely from Columbus' Foco tubing. Foco is made from an alloy called "Thermachrome". It has the interesting and specific characteristic of having exactly the same tensile strength after brazing or welding as before. There are no hard spots in the frame. This brings the frame closer to the builder's ideal, of taking the 8 tubes of the frame and uniting them into a single unit. Previously, Nivachrome, used in EL-OS and Torelli/Nemo 747 was considered the ultimate because it only lost 10% of its strength after brazing. Now near perfection is available. The tubing Mondonico selected is the 28 mm top tube and 32 mm downtube drawn to 0.4mm wall thickness that both Mondonico and I believe yields the finest possible ride available on a bike today. The thin-wall, lightweight 18mm seat stays give an aggresive, modern look to the bike

OOh, that's me :D

I emailed Cervelo about future steel models, thinking that if I waited a year I might get something better, and the exact reply from the company was: "there are no plans at this stage to bring out a 2005 steel model".

So, I got one straight away

AND..........on the "2005 models sneak preview" page, there's no steel model:

http://www.cervelo.com/bikes/tdf-bikes.html

Spanish.

Oh, we're talking about bikes, not swords. Sorry.