Advocacy & Safety - I feel making myself more visible at night has been counter-productive.

This is my second winter road cycling, and the majority of my winter riding is done at night. Last year I had reflective tape all over my helmet, a MagicShine 900 on my handlebars, reflectors on the back of my shoes, and one or two red blinkies underneath my seat. People generally gave me tons of room when passing, and for a while I felt much safer riding at night than during the day.

For this winter I added to all of that a second rear blinky by my left rear dropout while still keeping one under my seat, and added a ton of reflective fabric to my jacket to the point where it probably looks like I'm wearing one of those construction worker safety vests. My goal was to make myself more visible to motorists and make my arms more visible for hand signals.

However I've found over the last two months that I've been riding with this setup cars are passing me significantly closer (although not getting buzzed), and trying to take the lane to prevent unsafe passes has been far less effective than the rest of the year. I feel that I've removed all uncertainty of my position on the road, causing drivers to pass me more confidently (and more closely!).

Time for a Dinnotte 140L tail light.

^?

That's interesting...perhaps try going to back to last winters setup, and compare the space you're given. Maybe people are just less likely to give you space this year.

I'd like to chalk it up to just holiday traffic, as this week (and today's daylight ride in particular) have been even worse, but this has been since November or so when I started riding almost exclusively at night. I'm also riding the same time, which is around 6-7PM after rush hour is mostly done.

I'd love to try a reflector-less jacket to compare, but I only own one.

I don't think it really follows that they are passing closer because of the reflective gear. I see no rhyme or reason for this sort of trend. I'll go through periods where everyone that passes me is great and periods where everyone that passes me acts like an idiot.

Well my theory is now they have an even better idea of where I am on the road, whereas before I was probably a floating blinking red light until they got close.

Bright blinkies... reflective Jacket... ride in a predictable, responsible manner... everything else is out of your hands, my friend. Pray alot, thats what i do everytime i take to the road. Worked for me tonight, i was hit by an idiot driver and suffered no injuries but some bike damage.

Good Luck!!

andy

Interesting theory. But correlation =/= causation. Could just as easily be coincidence at this point.

You could be right though, who knows. Drivers are whacky people sometimes. :D

Just a thought, get someone else to mount your bike with your reflective jacket and all your lights on, and you drive up from behind.

There can be such a thing as "too bright" -- if you're so bright that drivers have to look away to preserve their night vision, they won't see as clearly the passing distance they're providing, much like some drivers unintentionally swerve towards oncoming motorists who have their high beams on.


On the other hand, national sentiment surveys show consumers are stressed out and angry this year due to the economy, so it could just be people aren't feeling as charitable when passing you.

Indeed, there is a well known effect that people are drawn to where they look. Target fixation. If your new jacket grabs too much attention that would be causing people to drive closer to you. Personally, I suspect extremely bright tail-lights are counter-productive for this reason... You want to be visible, but not end up like a UFO that everybody is going to stare at trying to identify.

Indeed, there is a well known effect that people are drawn to where they look. Target fixation. If your new jacket grabs too much attention that would be causing people to drive closer to you. Personally, I suspect extremely bright tail-lights are counter-productive for this reason... You want to be visible, but not end up like a UFO that everybody is going to stare at trying to identify.

The folks on the motorized couches won't "target fix" on you if you put a nice, bright Dinotte on the rear (a 140R, or even a 300R). They are too bright to look directly at, so the motorists tend to both look away (actually forward, keeping you in their peripheral vision) and steer away from you. Dimmer rear lights, like PB superflashes, are dim enough that drivers will just stare and steer towards them.

At least, that is my experience. Motorists may be different where you live.

The folks on the motorized couches won't "target fix" on you if you put a nice, bright Dinotte on the rear (a 140R, or even a 300R). They are too bright to look directly at, so the motorists tend to both look away (actually forward, keeping you in their peripheral vision) and steer away from you. Dimmer rear lights, like PB superflashes, are dim enough that drivers will just stare and steer towards them.

At least, that is my experience. Motorists may be different where you live.

Hm, if you say so. I've not had any complaints of lack of visibility when riding with a PB superflash. I once thought about getting the dinotte for riding dark country roads, but i haven't been up to that lately.

I think you should stop the flashing and go steady and see what that does. I actually find that motorists gave me more room at night then during the day.

This is my second winter road cycling, and the majority of my winter riding is done at night. Last year I had reflective tape all over my helmet, a MagicShine 900 on my handlebars, reflectors on the back of my shoes, and one or two red blinkies underneath my seat. People generally gave me tons of room when passing, and for a while I felt much safer riding at night than during the day.

For this winter I added to all of that a second rear blinky by my left rear dropout while still keeping one under my seat, and added a ton of reflective fabric to my jacket to the point where it probably looks like I'm wearing one of those construction worker safety vests. My goal was to make myself more visible to motorists and make my arms more visible for hand signals.

However I've found over the last two months that I've been riding with this setup cars are passing me significantly closer (although not getting buzzed), and trying to take the lane to prevent unsafe passes has been far less effective than the rest of the year. I feel that I've removed all uncertainty of my position on the road, causing drivers to pass me more confidently (and more closely!).

All I can say is, to take the lane regardless of how much they get their pants in a bunch.

If they could not see you with one blinky, the second one is probably not going to help, the reality is an alert driver with their lights on should be able to see you irrespective. Alternatively a distracted driver will not see you no matter what your lights are doing.

You may be making yourself an interesting attraction causing drivers to turn their head to see you, causing the car to drift into the direction they are looking.

Interesting you say looking like a construction worker safety vest. That's exactly what I wear. I've been putting reflective bands on my left wrist lately just to make signals more visible.

This is an area with a lot of bikes. I find drivers are mostly good, maybe even the good drivers outnumber the good bike riders. Maybe. My wife complains about the bikes running red lights and the like. She works closer to campus than I do.

I tend to agree with B.Carfree's comment.

...where it probably looks like I'm wearing one of those construction worker safety vests. My goal was to make myself more visible to motorists and make my arms more visible for hand signals.

However I've found over the last two months that I've been riding with this setup cars are passing me significantly closer ...

Fist you need to discount a week before and a few days after Thanksgiving and Christmas, these are known to have increases in aggressive driving. Next, the goal should be to look like a cyclist (or at least a NASCAR driver) over a construction worker. IMHO the key here is to have reflective material on the lower legs. Personally, my winter cycling jacket has a big reflective logo on the back and I wear reflective leg straps besides having a BP Superflash.

My 2 cents anyway.

I think you should stop the flashing and go steady and see what that does. I actually find that motorists gave me more room at night then during the day.

You need a steady to be seen, and a blinky to catch attention. I go with both. Frankly if you do look like a UFO, all the better.

You need a steady to be seen, and a blinky to catch attention. I go with both. Frankly if you do look like a UFO, all the better.

Actually I do have both. My Mars 4 is on steady, but my barends flash as does the helmet one. I do the same on the front, I have main bar light and a helmet light on steady of course, and an amber flasher. But the point I was making is that if you have just one tail light is to leave that one on steady, it's less confusing for drivers.

Well my theory is now they have an even better idea of where I am on the road, whereas before I was probably a floating blinking red light until they got close.

That's what I'd think, too. Try last year's setup and see if anything's different.

I ride with a Dinotte headlight and tail light. I wear a Xinglet and reflective ankle bands. At night, my route takes me on a 55+ mph two lane road with moderate traffic, as well as residential streets.

Cars consistently act as if they do not know what I am, but they'd better stay away from me. They slow upon approach, pass wide, then accelerate away.

I'm almost always given a much wider pass than the same route in the day time.

Fist you need to discount a week before and a few days after Thanksgiving and Christmas, these are known to have increases in aggressive driving. Next, the goal should be to look like a cyclist (or at least a NASCAR driver) over a construction worker. IMHO the key here is to have reflective material on the lower legs. Personally, my winter cycling jacket has a big reflective logo on the back and I wear reflective leg straps besides having a BP Superflash.

My 2 cents anyway.

Yes! I read a study which says reflective gear which displays "bio motion" such as strips on your shoes, pants cuffs or wheels is almost instantly recognizable as a cyclist. If you just have it on your back you might look like a construction pylon, mailbox or something. The blinking light, I feel, attracts attention more than the steady one and saves your batteries! The human eye is quite sensitive to light so unless freeway like speeds are a factor I skip the ultra-bright tail-light. Getting a bright head-light with high lux was a great investment.

Yes! I read a study which says reflective gear which displays "bio motion" such as strips on your shoes, pants cuffs or wheels is almost instantly recognizable as a cyclist. If you just have it on your back you might look like a construction pylon, mailbox or something. The blinking light, I feel, attracts attention more than the steady one and saves your batteries! The human eye is quite sensitive to light so unless freeway like speeds are a factor I skip the ultra-bright tail-light. Getting a bright head-light with high lux was a great investment.

Except for one problem, it's already been proven that flashing red lights make it more difficult for most drivers to distinguish distance from them to the light by underestimating and drunken drivers are attracted to flashing lights. But it's all weird stuff because in the daytime flashing red is better. But it seems no one really knows absolutely which way is better, and that's one of the reasons I went with one steady and three flashing.

Actually I do have both. My Mars 4 is on steady, but my barends flash as does the helmet one. I do the same on the front, I have main bar light and a helmet light on steady of course, and an amber flasher. But the point I was making is that if you have just one tail light is to leave that one on steady, it's less confusing for drivers.

Yeah but that one light is also less likely to get their attention... so you have to consider, do you want them to know where you are, if they have noticed you, or to notice you and be aware that you are "somewhere" over there.

As far as flashing barends... how bright are they really... the few barend flashers I have seen seemed more like a novelty than a real flasher.

Yes! I read a study which says reflective gear which displays "bio motion" such as strips on your shoes, pants cuffs or wheels is almost instantly recognizable as a cyclist.

I know that my family, and myself before I started cycling, found pedal reflectors about the most recognizable. I'm sure pant cuffs and what have you would have about the same effect.

Except for one problem, it's already been proven that flashing red lights make it more difficult for most drivers to distinguish distance from them to the light by underestimating and drunken drivers are attracted to flashing lights. But it's all weird stuff because in the daytime flashing red is better. But it seems no one really knows absolutely which way is better, and that's one of the reasons I went with one steady and three flashing.

I'm not sure it is a problem, the reflective kit is going to be illuminated or the cyclist's outline should be visible(so long as your light isn't blindingly bright). Theoretically speaking I'd agree that in a solid black-out it's impossible to determine how close you are to a blinking light, but the real situation it is rarely so opaque. Maybe something to consider is running a second taillight on solid under heavy fog, downpour, snow when your outline or reflective gear won't be as visible.

Yeah but that one light is also less likely to get their attention... so you have to consider, do you want them to know where you are, if they have noticed you, or to notice you and be aware that you are "somewhere" over there.

As far as flashing barends... how bright are they really... the few barend flashers I have seen seemed more like a novelty than a real flasher.

What? The Blackburn Mars 4 is the brightest self contained battery light on the market next to the Dinotte. That light by itself is more then bright enough.

Add to that Soma Road Flares, which are the brightest bar end lights bar none, and these are not novelty lights by any means. Do a You Tube search and you'll see what I mean.

Then add to that a Blackburn Flea on the helmet.

Add to all of that the leg band reflectors, reflectors piping on the clothing (I do wear a reflective vest but only when I know I'm going to be spending a large part of the ride at night) and seat bag, and reflective stickers on the helmet. I did have two Cateye LD600's on each stay but I took them off after I got the Mars 4 to replace a failed BPSF because the Mars 4 was brighter and I didn't see the benefit of the 600's being left on.

I've had drivers come up beside me and tell me how well they could see me. I do know this, that when I'm riding or driving at night I know I have the brightest rear set up in Fort Wayne IN, because I have yet to see someone with nothing brighter then a dim small single LED tail light you can barely see even from 25 feet...most around here ride with no lights on the rear and your lucky if they have reflectors!!!! Weird city.

bicyclists as christmas trees, I luv it!

:roflmao:

:thumb:

When I lived in Wisconsin in the '70s, there was a local guy that had his bike absolutely covered with lights. It was often described as looking like a Christmas tree, and he was a minor local celebrity. Nobody could believe it when he was run over by a motorist and dragged for quite a distance. The motorist's excuse? "I didn't see him"

I do most of my riding at night, I have my lights, both front and rear, steady on. My lighted reflective vest I have set to flashing. I also used to run a Down Low Glow, till I fried the battery for it. I replaced it with a pair of Bike Brightz, I am slightly underwhelmed with their performance. At my earliest opportunity I will replace the DLG battery.

As a general rule, on my bike, I feel the more lights the better. I don't care if a driver's first thought is "WTF is that?" as long as they realize that there is something there.

bicyclists as christmas trees, I luv it!

:roflmao:

:thumb:

Only if we add green lights.

When I lived in Wisconsin in the '70s, there was a local guy that had his bike absolutely covered with lights. It was often described as looking like a Christmas tree, and he was a minor local celebrity. Nobody could believe it when he was run over by a motorist and dragged for quite a distance. The motorist's excuse? "I didn't see him"

There is plenty of proof that some drivers can run into anything.

Also, no bike lights in the 70's came anywhere close in brightness to what is available today.

Also, no bike lights in the 70's came anywhere close in brightness to what is available today.

My dynamo head and tail lights were, on a steep decent, just before they burned out. :D

Bright blinkies... reflective Jacket... ride in a predictable, responsible manner... everything else is out of your hands, my friend. Pray alot, thats what i do everytime i take to the road. Worked for me tonight, i was hit by an idiot driver and suffered no injuries but some bike damage.

Good Luck!!

andy

you get hit by a car...which you've probably prayed would not happen...and your bike is damaged ...and that makes you think that your prayer is being answered and acted upon by a god...that's a good chuckle. If that's how prayer works...I'd stay quiet!

My dynamo head and tail lights were, on a steep decent, just before they burned out. :D

Haha... If you are referring to the old tire driven generator sets like I had, it always seemed like a descent was required just to keep the bike rolling. :lol: Yay, technology!

You need a steady to be seen, and a blinky to catch attention. I go with both. Frankly if you do look like a UFO, all the better.

For this holiday season, I scream "TAKE ME TO YOUR LEADER" as I get passed.

No takers yet.

For this holiday season, I scream "TAKE ME TO YOUR LEADER" as I get passed.

No takers yet.

Maybe you should switch to using "Re Mi Do Do So"

Maybe you should switch to using "Re Mi Do Do So"

nice...I could sync my lights to that! :beer:

I ride in Cycling shoes (with standard reflective fabric strips) 1-2 Headlights depending, and 1-2 Tail or Red lets. Usually no more than that though. I too am under the impression from experience that drives will drive closer to you if you are too bright. I don't know if it's a glare that is produced, or they really are just less caring when they know what you are or what. Enough light to let you know you are there but not enough for them to be an angry driver/cyclist hater. This is what I discovered through touring and 3 years of commuting. Now as a driver(again), I still think TOO much light is counter-productive as you don't really know what to look at.

As far as flashing barends... how bright are they really... the few barend flashers I have seen seemed more like a novelty than a real flasher.

Here's a video showing the Trek bar-tip lights along with a SuperFlash and a DiNotte 140. They're not bad if your bar tips don't aim at the ground, which mine are aimed pretty level:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDhwTV229E0

As for the main topic, I've used high-output taillights for years (DiNotte 140, Nova BULL, and now a DiNotte 300R). Every motorist comment has been positive, saying I showed up well and/or "where did you get that, I want one!" On the divided highway at night, many regular motorists and virtually ALL pro truckers change to the left lane hundreds of meters in advance to give whatever-it-is extra room, even though I'm at the right edge of a full-lane shoulder (old thread with all the gory details (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php/231287-Observations-from-some-real-world-quot-Static-Lane-Positioning-quot-testing)).

"Too much" taillight power would not be easy to achieve, unless you're on an MUP or something. Show up in THIS scene:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ypx3R_WtLTI

Here's a video showing the Trek bar-tip lights along with a SuperFlash and a DiNotte 140. They're not bad if your bar tips don't aim at the ground, which mine are aimed pretty level:


As for the main topic, I've used high-output taillights for years (DiNotte 140, Nova BULL, and now a DiNotte 300R). Every motorist comment has been positive, saying I showed up well and/or "where did you get that, I want one!" On the divided highway at night, many regular motorists and virtually ALL pro truckers change to the left lane hundreds of meters in advance to give whatever-it-is extra room, even though I'm at the right edge of a full-lane shoulder (old thread with all the gory details (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php/231287-Observations-from-some-real-world-quot-Static-Lane-Positioning-quot-testing)).

"Too much" taillight power would not be easy to achieve, unless you're on an MUP or something. Show up in THIS scene:



Wow, pretty nice lighting. The bar ends worked quite well. I like how the super flash has an almost steady state with the intermittent bright flash for attention getting. I know it is really a series of different flashes. Perhaps it is the Dinotte that I see.

And yes, that is traffic... that is much like how I define traffic also.

It's the Dinotte that you see. It is the light that is actually BRIGHT, and can be set for steady dim with different patterns of periodic bright.

Notice that as the bike fades into the distance, or from the car's perspective, when the bike first pops into view and the driver must react, the only light that can be seen is the Dinotte.

Indeed, there is a well known effect that people are drawn to where they look. Target fixation. If your new jacket grabs too much attention that would be causing people to drive closer to you. Personally, I suspect extremely bright tail-lights are counter-productive for this reason... You want to be visible, but not end up like a UFO that everybody is going to stare at trying to identify.

I completely agreed with this. When you go overboard with the lights and reflectivity you become a spectacle which draws too much of the drivers attention. The gaze at you and tend to steer toward you. They may even lose your exact position in the glare of the lights.

I completely agreed with this. When you go overboard with the lights and reflectivity you become a spectacle which draws too much of the drivers attention. The gaze at you and tend to steer toward you. They may even lose your exact position in the glare of the lights.

As with most things, excess is best avoided, which is why I quit riding nekkid.