Electronics, Lighting, & Gadgets - How many lumens to actually see? - and light recommendations

Hi,

I'm not short on lights. I have a B&M cyo (60 lux version) run off my dynohub on my fork crown and a fenix L2D on my helmet. However these get washed out by all the street lights and oncoming car lights such that I can't see the road any better than without them - unless the road is dark, which is when they really shine (sorry!)!

The street lights and oncoming car lights don't do much to highlight potholes - of which I have plenty in my area.

So I was wondering - how many lumens do I require to actually see the road all the time?

Any light recommendations for this purpose? I have decided I'm open to dyno powered ones, and battery powered ones, but not those which cost a fortune - so torches are definitely in but I'm not forking out for another dinotte (I have one on the rear).

Also any way I can run 2 dyno powered lights from my single dynohub?

Thanks

Daven

I have 200 lumens on the front which I find ok, but I do wish I had more. Maybe next year :)

850 minimum.

If you have street lights, I get by with 150 lumens. On dark roads without much light, I use a light with 700 lumens. Sometimes that's not quite enough to see potholes, so I agree with gears post of 850 lumens.

If you have street lights, I get by with 150 lumens. On dark roads without much light, I use a light with 700 lumens. Sometimes that's not quite enough to see potholes, so I agree with gears post of 850 lumens.

I find I need more when there are lots of competing light sources such as in the city. If I'm away from other light sources, I could use less light but don't.

200 lumens is the low end of good light for night riding...especially in urban areas. 400 is better, 1500 is fantastic and 4500 is the bomb:thumb::D I've been using 2 Magicshines this year. While they are good lights, I kinda miss my Retinal Burners (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php/368772-Cyccommute-s-Retinal-Burners...DIY-lights) light output. I don't miss the weight, just the light.

I agree with cyc that you need more light in town then in the country. You might look at peterwhites site for a better dynohub lite like the E3 triple

He has some nice comparison pics

I'd say that 120 lumens is about the bare minimum to "see", from my experience.
It wasn't until the last few years that anything brighter got affordable for most, outside of DIYers.

I played around with different light setup and various lumen output. I think it is important that beside how many lumen is needed, it is also important to how they are aimed. When I ran a MS900 at about 500-600 OTF, it was too floody and not enough throw. I ran some MG X Thrower at about 500-600 OTF lumen and they had a good throw but not enough flood. I agree that 800 lumen(not OTF) is about the minium but not from one single light source. I like 350 of those to be on the floody side from one light and 450 of those to be on the throw from another. I came up with those number because I have two flashlight that are 350 flood and the other 450 throw and the combine of the two is not bad at all.

I'm running over 3000 manufactor rated lumen ( or over 2200 OTF lumen) only on the unlit parking lot which I cut through everyday. Out on the street, I cutback to about half of that. I find that somewhere about 1500-2000 lumen OTF is about where my lights and car headlight are about being equal in brightness.

Thanks for the info, might invest in 2 of those flashlights from china - 1 floody and 1 throwy. I like having a helmet light so I can direct light at people who might otherwise miss me, and a little blinky just lets everyone know I'm a bike. Will keep the dynohub light though as it is pretty good, and is always on :)

Thanks again,

Daven

I find I need more when there are lots of competing light sources such as in the city. If I'm away from other light sources, I could use less light but don't.

200 lumens is the low end of good light for night riding...especially in urban areas. 400 is better, 1500 is fantastic and 4500 is the bomb:thumb::D I've been using 2 Magicshines this year. While they are good lights, I kinda miss my Retinal Burners (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php/368772-Cyccommute-s-Retinal-Burners...DIY-lights) light output. I don't miss the weight, just the light.

Did it take 2 Magicshines to equal the Retinal Burners?

Much of it depends on how fast you ride and how well the roads are lit.. 700 minimum for me, darker sections of roads, I turn on my thrower which adds 1200 lumens of more light.. I also have a small fenix p2d on the helmet running in sos mode just to be seen and stand out..

In a completely dark environment, I can do OK with as little as 250 lumens because my night vision can adapt and stay that way. It ends up looking like this to me:

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff237/mechBgon/036.jpg

But as the others said above, it's different in the city, with streetlights and vehicles interfering. In that situation, I prefer to have tons of lighting. >1000 lumens would be a start.

But as the others said above, it's different in the city, with streetlights and vehicles interfering. In that situation, I prefer to have tons of lighting. >1000 lumens would be a start.

I forgot to mention. On raining day through downpour, I do prefer the >1000 lumens. The rain drops along with the wet road just absorb the lumens. On those days, I usually run all my lights on high. No complaint from drivers yet.

I am really fuzzy about the difference between lux, lumens, and watts. Well, I understand that watt is a unit of power. I guess what I am saying is that some lights are rated in watts, some are rated in lumens, some are rated in lux. I am not sure how they compare to one another.

Did it take 2 Magicshines to equal the Retinal Burners?

Not quite. More like 2.341726:D And that's just to replace one. I used to use 3 Retinal Burners...I may go back. It's nice to be seen from space:innocent:

I am really fuzzy about the difference between lux, lumens, and watts. Well, I understand that watt is a unit of power. I guess what I am saying is that some lights are rated in watts, some are rated in lumens, some are rated in lux. I am not sure how they compare to one another.

A watt is the unit of power or how much power it takes to make light. It's not a bad measure but the amount of light can vary depending on the way the light is made. For example, a 10 watt tungsten filament light has a different light output than a 10 W halogen. Watts, unless you are comparing the same (or similar) lamps, is pretty useless. When you are talking about LED, the efficiency is so high that a 10W LED would burn holes through metal:eek:;)

Lumen is the measure of the light output of the lamp. The light from a lamp putting out 200 lumen will be independent of the power necessary to run the lamp. The lumens are measured at the light source.

Lux is a measure of how many lumens/unit area the light puts out. This is highly dependent on the way in which the light is focused. If the lamp has a narrow reflector, the Lux can be quite high, i.e. the light isn't too spread out. If the lamp has a wide reflector or no reflector, the Lux can be quite low.

If you want to compare raw output, lumens are probably the best measure. As I said above, a 200 lumen lamp is going to be a 200 lumen lamp independent of the optics.

Lux tells you how much light you'll see on the road but you need to know the area of the light beam, the spread and distance from the source. That's a few too many variables to make it worthwhile for quick comparison.

Not quite. More like 2.341726:D And that's just to replace one. I used to use 3 Retinal Burners...I may go back. It's nice to be seen from space:innocent:

I'd like to see you and Collen C light up all your lights at once, it would probably look like a football field lit up at night.

Along with lumens.

When considering a headlight for the purpose of seeing (as opposed to being seen), consider the beam of the light. Will you outrun it on a fast downhill? How wide is the beam pattern? If you outrun the beam it is useless, your now riding in the dark. If the beam is too small you will only see what is right in front of you, once you spot something to avoid, you will want to see to either side of the object to avoid so you can choose which way to turn to avoid the obstacle. A nice strong, wide beam is most desirable in a light.

Also features like easy charging (I had one setup that required removing the batteries each charge, this wore out in no time), good waterproof connectors (no connectors is better), mounting that swiveled in an accident (fixed mounts break off) and allow the lights to be moved to another bike easily.

Good point, am not too concerned with floody beams - I want something to see the road ahead :) am currently searching for a good throwing torch :)

Along with lumens.

When considering a headlight for the purpose of seeing (as opposed to being seen), consider the beam of the light. Will you outrun it on a fast downhill? How wide is the beam pattern? If you outrun the beam it is useless, your now riding in the dark. If the beam is too small you will only see what is right in front of you, once you spot something to avoid, you will want to see to either side of the object to avoid so you can choose which way to turn to avoid the obstacle. A nice strong, wide beam is most desirable in a light.

Also features like easy charging (I had one setup that required removing the batteries each charge, this wore out in no time), good waterproof connectors (no connectors is better), mounting that swiveled in an accident (fixed mounts break off) and allow the lights to be moved to another bike easily.

That's where the lux measurement would come into play. A high lumen count and a low lux indicates a very broad beam such as a flood light. A low lumen count and a high lux indicates a very narrow spot light as does a high lumen/high lux. Unfortunately, you hardly ever find light companies listing both lumens and lux. If they do list lux, you have no idea how the measurement was made.

Something that I miss from my halogen lights is the ability to run different beam patterns. The Magicshine comes in only a rather wide floody beam. I'd estimate it at around 25 degrees. The halogens I used to run came in 35 degree, 22 degree, 12 degree or even 7 degree beams. At 7 degrees and 1500 lumens, I had to follow laser safety protocols:D:rolleyes:

Great discussion on light usability. I've been night riding for only 3 years, so I'm a novice at this compared to many here. My first light was a NR Sol, which is probably 150 lumens. I was happy with it at the time, thought it was the bomb on group trail rides. Where I noticed it was lacking was when I took it out on the road by myself - very easy to outrun the light and it felt quite unsafe. So I supplemented the NR with a Fenix L2D flashlight mounted on the bar. Huge improvement, doubled the light output plus I could aim them near and far for better usable area. Only drawback was washout when another rider had a brighter light behind me.

This year I go a Strykr with 700+ lumens/52 Lux output according to reviews. It is fantastic and now I can't believe I rode with less light than this. I guess I'm starting to get addicted as I'm contemplating getting another light just to see what riding with 1200+ lumens is like.

To add to what cyccommute said, beam pattern is crucial to the type riding you are doing. The Strykr is one of the few single headlights that comes with two interchangeable optics - one flood, one spot. There is a significant difference in light usability with them. The flood is perfect for slower trail riding, as it really lights up the immediate area in front of the bike. I supplement that with a spot helmet mounted flashlight for seeing father ahead or around corners, but if I approach speeds greater than 18-20mph, I start to outrun the light. If I'm going to be riding more on paved trails or roads, the spot is the better optic to use, as it feels very safe at higher speeds. I supplement that arrangement with my flashlight mounted on the bar and pointed more towards the immediate area in front of the bike.

I usually ride at 15mph+ so find myself outrunning my lights quite a bit. They just don't have the power to light up further ahead :( hopefully a good throwing light will sort that out. Might as well get one of those red ultrafire lights for the rear too.....I love lights!

I usually ride at 15mph+ so find myself outrunning my lights quite a bit. They just don't have the power to light up further ahead :( hopefully a good throwing light will sort that out. Might as well get one of those red ultrafire lights for the rear too.....I love lights!

That's a good thing, because it sounds like you need to keep buying new lights and experimenting until you have the right one for every situation!

If you've ever seen pictures of Coleen's bike or socalrider's flashlight collection, you might be headed in that direction. :thumb:

100 lumens bare minimum. You will not be able to go faster than 12mph safely, and oncoming car lights will wash your lights out temporarily, but you can definitely coast home at 10-12mph on a measly 100 lumen light. (I def wouldn't recommend it.) A Fenix L2d on medium is about this bright, and it's pretty weak.

A Fenix L2D @ 180 lumens is what I'd consider the minimum for actually riding and not just surviving. At under 15mph, it's perfectly adequate, but over 15mph, it gets a bit dicey, and leaves you anxious about what's ahead. That said, I've done quite a number of 18 mile dark commutes with nothing but 1 Fenix L2D, and average 15-17mph with it. Wasn't exactly fun, but wasn't dangerous, as well.

500-750 lumens (Magicshine range) makes a big difference. You can literally see pretty much immediately up ahead, so speeds up to 20mph are actually comfortable. Ironically, the throw of the MS is the same as the 180 lumen Fenix, but the spread is much bigger, which definitely helps. Above 22mph, even the MS gets dicey since the throw isn't that far.

I myself wouldn't run more than 750 lumens as headlights, just because when I've seen other folks with them, they're quite irritatingly bright, even from the far side of a 4-lane road. I know a good number of folks here do with no problems, but I think it's overkill in a traffic situation where there are others to worry about. If you're averaging 22+mph on your commute though, I'd go for 750+lumens - you'll actually need it, and motorists will actually welcome seeing you if you're moving that fast.

I'm still living dangerously and running my recalled battery pack MS on my infrequent bike commutes (18 mi each way) but when I do, I average 19-20mph according to my Garmin - which means my moving time is closer to 22-24mph (it's flat the whole way) due to stoplights dropping the average time. The MS is very good to these speeds, but that's probably the upper limit unless you feel like taking risks.

That's a good thing, because it sounds like you need to keep buying new lights and experimenting until you have the right one for every situation!

If you've ever seen pictures of Coleen's bike or socalrider's flashlight collection, you might be headed in that direction. :thumb:

They can very addictive. If you have multiple bikes, then it is worthwhile to buy and try different lights since the less favorable light can be used on the non primary bike.

What more important than the addiction is the safety factor. Having those extra lumens saved my butt more than once. I recall traveling on the main road 5am in the morning where my traffic had all blinking red yellow lights and cross traffic had blinking red lights. The traffic on my road at that time of the morning has hardly any cars and the cross traffic are single lane comming out of residential street. I was travelling with my two throwers on when I heard a tire screeching sound from a locked brakes. I took a quick look at my mirror but saw no cars and than I saw a taxi just barely stopped at the crosswalk from the side street from my right. He had no headlights on and just his parking lights on. I did not see the warning sign of a car approaching from the side street because usually I see their head lights shine pass the intersection as I get near the intersection. I believed he was going to run his blinking red traffic light and then saw the lights from my thrower and reacted on that before actually seeing me. Time like this is when I glad I had those extra Lumens working for me.

I'm puzzled. Since there are so many variables why don't you just try out several lights under your riding circumstances?

That's a good thing, because it sounds like you need to keep buying new lights and experimenting until you have the right one for every situation!

If you've ever seen pictures of Coleen's bike or socalrider's flashlight collection, you might be headed in that direction. :thumb:

The great thing about having a lot of lights is that your friend's can't wimp out on a night ride because they do not have one.. You just say no problem, I have extras, we can ride.. Personally I only ride with 2 lights, 1 flood for closeup and a thrower to see down the road..

Even though I have dozens of lights, this is a small collection compared to some serious flashoholics, I've seen 100+ lights many times. It is quite a site when they are lined up on 1 table..

The great thing about having a lot of lights is that your friend's can't wimp out on a night ride because they do not have one.. You just say no problem, I have extras, we can ride..

Haha, how true :D When I go on nighttime mountain-bike rides, I try to carry at least one spare to lend out, too. Because someone will have a light fail or run out of power. No problem, lemme rubber-band a Fenix L2D to your helmet, bro. All good now?

I'm puzzled. Since there are so many variables why don't you just try out several lights under your riding circumstances?

Because purchasing several lights to try out is a rather expensive proposition. Even with the Magicshine, $80 each is a bit much to spend to experiment.

Did I say anything about purchasing? Nope. Surely your LBS isn't so chintzy that it wouldn't let you try a light, or maybe a couple of lights before you buy.

Of course if this is just an internet, server space thread and there is no intention of buying.......

I'm not sure about your area or the OP's, but in Santa Barbara, LBSs are sorely lacking in any decent lighting products.

I can ride around most areas without any lights at all due to the plentiful supply of street-lighting. However, to conform to traffic-laws and safety concerns, I have two P7 flashlights with about 500-700 lumens each. I would say that 500-lumens is the minimum for any kind of riding in complete darkness at 15mph+. Above 20mph, I'll switch on the 2nd light that I have aimed higher as a high-beam. Even with both lights on for 1000-1200 lumens output, I don't feel comfortable going over 30mph due to the throw distance. Perhaps I might pick up another P7 light with tighter spotlight throw rather than the medium-flood pattern of my existing ones.

Remember that the eye's light-sensitivity is not linear. In order for a light to illuminate the road with 2x the apparent brightness to the eye, it has to put out 4x the lumens.

Did I say anything about purchasing? Nope. Surely your LBS isn't so chintzy that it wouldn't let you try a light, or maybe a couple of lights before you buy.

Of course if this is just an internet, server space thread and there is no intention of buying.......

Unlike DannoXYZ, I see a lot of lighting products offered in the Denver area but I've not seen one place that offers test drives on light systems. There's just too much money tied up in inventory to break out a $400 light for some one to try. Even an $80 light, like the Magicshine, would be too expensive to have test units at most shops. Add to that the liability involved...what happens if a malfunction occurs and the test rider has a crash...and most shops wouldn't touch light test rides with a 10 foot pole.

I think most of the analysis is pointless. The original post is really about a single individual's night vision ability under unique circumstances.

That being said, of course more light, focused directly in front of the bicycle is better. But picking some brightness factor and proclaiming that as "sufficient or best" - well -that pointless.

My perspective suggests that most oncoming automotive lighting always hampers night vision. Deal with it.

Ahhhh at last a good post. The fact is that, as R Cranium points out, how much light is enough is a pretty personal matter that depends on the individual and the circumstances. What is enough for a person with excellent night vision in a rural area on a full moon night with some snow on the ground will be radically different than for a person with poor night vision in an urban area with many lights on moonless night, black pavement and lots of deep shadows created by ambient lighting.

I have been allowed to test lights and I came up with a decision; for me and probably for no one else.

I will say that those cyclists who ride at night with no lights need to be put in that particular hell reserved for motorists who do not use lights on foggy or other limited visibility days. Lights are used both to see and to be seen. The object of the game is not to get by with the minimum. It is to use enough there is no question the blindest among us can see you and so you can see anything that may be on the path in front of you.

I think finding the minimum is not about having just what you can survive with, but about minimizing costs. For someone riding a $300 bike, spending $200 on lights seems a little expensive. Sure, its a good value for what you get, but its just not in many people's budget. Good LEDs are not cheap. If you've never strapped a light to your bike and taken off in the dark, its good to have some kind of starting minimum in mind.

Yes, its going to be personal, but I think we can all agree that the 3LED, 20 lumen cheap-o lights are not going to cut it, 50 lumens is not going to cut it, etc... Depending on the light, something around 150 lumens is about the minimum I have found to be useful for seeing the road ahead for me. I ride in the city, but get out into areas with very little street lighting as well. My Fenix light at 200-something lumens (on high) was definitely adequate in both situations. I went to the magicshine, however, because I wanted a longer running time. You may need considerable more depending on your vision, comfort with riding at night, etc. If you have the money to spend, go way beyond the 150, you wont regret it.

As for the REALLY bright lights, keep in mind that car headlights are designed with reflectors or projectors to keep the light down on the road and out of the eyes of oncoming traffic. If you are running 1000+ lumens be aware that you can blind oncoming traffic if your lights are point up - that's not particularly good for your own safety ;)

As for the REALLY bright lights, keep in mind that car headlights are designed with reflectors or projectors to keep the light down on the road and out of the eyes of oncoming traffic. If you are running 1000+ lumens be aware that you can blind oncoming traffic if your lights are point up - that's not particularly good for your own safety ;)

Only some car headlamps are designed with cutoffs. Older vehicles, which outnumber new vehicles, don't have such cutoffs. Additionally, the positioning of a cyclist on the road if far to the right of even the brightest automobile lights with or without cut offs. Other issues to factor in are that a wide angle floodlamp that might throw light into an oncoming lane would be too diffuse to cause much blindness, i.e. the lux would be rather low. More tightly focused beams wouldn't be wide enough to spray much light into oncoming lanes.

Even if my high output lights were able to blind oncoming traffic, I'd rather have oncoming traffic notice me...and try to avoid me...than be friendlier and less visible.

I think many riders who use lights under 100 lumens are shocked what a difference a decent light makes. I have friends that I loan lights too and they break out some 5 led light they bought at REI for 40.00 they use for night rides. I pull an R5 or P7 light out of my jersey pocket and strap it onto there bars with a lockblock and when I turn it on, almost universally they say what the hell is that..

They never turn back to the cheapo lights, they as they say "see the light" and now see the road when the ride at night.

I use to use a light called a wonderlight, but that was 25+ years ago, I did night time centuries with that light and thought it was fine. Of course I now ask myself how I didn't kill myself on those rides with that weak light. The wonderlight had the power of weak aa minimag. Ever since the higher power lights have been available, the days of nightsun and niterider I have owned higher power lights. The new high power leds give you balance of power vs price that in great for all riders. You do not have to spend 300-400 for a good light..

http://benscycle.blogspot.com/2009/05/product-of-week-wonder-cycle-light.html

As for the REALLY bright lights, keep in mind that car headlights are designed with reflectors or projectors to keep the light down on the road and out of the eyes of oncoming traffic. If you are running 1000+ lumens be aware that you can blind oncoming traffic if your lights are point up - that's not particularly good for your own safety ;)As of today, it is still illegal under Federal DOT laws to install European-style ECE lights on your automobile in the U.S. Those are the ones with sharp cutoffs above horizontal. You can only have them if your car originally came with them installed from the factory. So most of the cars you see on the road will still have the center-spot flashlight-like beam-pattern. Minimum output for an automotive 55w halogen bulb is 1000-lumens and is allowed up to 1750 depending upon the light configuration (H4, H7, 9005/9006, etc.). That's 3500 lumens of output from a car, or +7000 lumens with the high-beams on.

A monster bike-light at 1000 lumens will most certainly not blind auto-drivers as badly as other cars. Especially with the ricer kids installing +10000 lumen HID kits in their stock lights (another illegal mod).

Mounting location helps a lot also. I used to have my throwers mounted on the handle bar top. When I'm right behinds car, I was able to see the if the driver had a bald spot or the root color of the hair if the driver was a female. The lumen was also not as efficient either until I mount them near the bottom of the drop. Now some of the hot spot are dissipated and spread out on the road.

Then there is that effect of having all those lumens. It makes you stand out different from other cyclist. When car see that difference, they take notice and some actually slow down while passing me just to check out the hardware.

You sure that's what they're checking out???

I use to use a light called a wonderlight, but that was 25+ years ago, I did night time centuries with that light and thought it was fine. Of course I now ask myself how I didn't kill myself on those rides with that weak light.

I was a Berec Ever Ready Frontguard II man, myself. Incredibly fine lens; really good switch; 3V incandescent bulb.

You sure that's what they're checking out???

Yeah, sometimes I ask myself the same question. Argh, grrr :D

Only some car headlamps are designed with cutoffs. Older vehicles, which outnumber new vehicles, don't have such cutoffs. Additionally, the positioning of a cyclist on the road if far to the right of even the brightest automobile lights with or without cut offs. Other issues to factor in are that a wide angle floodlamp that might throw light into an oncoming lane would be too diffuse to cause much blindness, i.e. the lux would be rather low. More tightly focused beams wouldn't be wide enough to spray much light into oncoming lanes.

I totally agree.
I get kind of tired of the "you will blind drivers" argument against bright bicycle lights. Who points a bicycle light up? They are always pointed down on the road. No matter how bright a bicycle light is, it isn't near as bright as a cars lighting and that doesn't cause a problem for other drivers of oncoming cars even though the drivers are further out into the lane than a bicyclist would be. The whole argument is silly.

I totally agree.
I get kind of tired of the "you will blind drivers" argument against bright bicycle lights. Who points a bicycle light up? They are always pointed down on the road. No matter how bright a bicycle light is, it isn't near as bright as a cars lighting and that doesn't cause a problem for other drivers of oncoming cars even though the drivers are further out into the lane than a bicyclist would be. The whole argument is silly.

Weeeell...they can be (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php/368772-Cyccommute-s-Retinal-Burners...DIY-lights);)

http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r181/cyccommute/IMGP1311.jpg
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r181/cyccommute/IMGP1312.jpg
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r181/cyccommute/IMG_1087.jpg

Personally I believe most driver are more blinded by the backlight of their cellphone. A good blinding of lights from an unexpected bright set of light by a cyclist is a good wake call for them, if you know what I mean?

It might be possible to blind auto drivers. But I think you need to get to this guy's level of lighting to do it...

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e346/DannoXYZ/Cycling/LEDbikeLight.jpg
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e346/DannoXYZ/Cycling/LEDbikeLightTrees1000.jpg

This homemade light is pretty awesome (http://www.kolumbus.fi/hietala2/jukka/teholed/teholed.htm) too. I was considering building something like this before P7 flashlights were plentiful and cheap.
http://www.kolumbus.fi/hietala2/jukka/teholed/valo3.jpg
http://www.kolumbus.fi/hietala2/jukka/teholed/valo7.jpg

^^^ winner ^^^

looks similar to the 5 x alpha 8 led I bought.. It puts out 1200+ lumens but a little easier to mount than that monster light.. I think the nicest big boy lights are from wayne at elektrolumens.. I have read he has some new lights coming out in the next couple of months that look promising for bike riders.

http://elektrolumens.com/

As of today, it is still illegal under Federal DOT laws to install European-style ECE lights on your automobile in the U.S. Those are the ones with sharp cutoffs above horizontal. You can only have them if your car originally came with them installed from the factory. So most of the cars you see on the road will still have the center-spot flashlight-like beam-pattern. Minimum output for an automotive 55w halogen bulb is 1000-lumens and is allowed up to 1750 depending upon the light configuration (H4, H7, 9005/9006, etc.). That's 3500 lumens of output from a car, or +7000 lumens with the high-beams on.

A monster bike-light at 1000 lumens will most certainly not blind auto-drivers as badly as other cars. Especially with the ricer kids installing +10000 lumen HID kits in their stock lights (another illegal mod).

I have no idea what you're talking about with "European Style Regulations" and such. However, your statement that "So most of the cars you see on the road will still have the center-spot flashlight-like beam-pattern" is just plain wrong wishful thinking.

I took a picture of the stock headlights (I'm definitely not into car-modding) on my car - a 2009 Toyota Prius. We're not talking something modded or high-end here. The headlights are obviously not center-spot flashlight-like beam pattern lights, they have a definite shaped beam -
http://www.bikeforums.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=184820&d=1294171868

Hey - I'm not even saying whether bright lights are or aren't a problem for drivers. I don't have a strong opinion on that (though I know they're a problem for other people on the MUP's I ride, but that's a different situation). But the idea that shaped beams on cars are "illegal" or something and that they aren't common is just plain untrue.

Hey - I'm not even saying whether bright lights are or aren't a problem for drivers. I don't have a strong opinion on that (though I know they're a problem for other people on the MUP's I ride, but that's a different situation). But the idea that shaped beams on cars are "illegal" or something and that they aren't common is just plain untrue.As I said in post #38 (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php/703550-How-many-lumens-to-actually-see-and-light-recommendations?p=12022030&viewfull=1#post12022030):
"You can only have them if your car originally came with them installed from the factory." Did your Toyota come with the headlights that you shone on your garage door? Most foreign makers will have ECE lights because that standard was created in 1958. If your car came with DOT-spec lamps (such as older cars or domestics), you cannot legally upgrade to ECE lights and you WILL NOT be able to find them for sale in auto-parts stores. A headlight from an auto-parts store will have the round DOT-approved beam-pattern. Aftermarket lamps are required to have SAE and DOT certifcations on them and an ECE lamp will have neither. Although some ECE lamps for motorcycles will have a DOT-M cert.

Here's the DOT regulations: http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regulations/administration/fmcsr/fmcsrruletext.aspx?reg=571.108
Some background on DOT versus ECE headlamps: http://www.jag-lovers.org/books/xj-s/26-Lightmods.html