Bicycle Mechanics - Wheel Advice

I have a Bianchi Via Narone 7 Sora Compact. I absolutely love this bike. The problem is, since I bought it over the summer, I have put about 1,300 miles on it and have been through about 10 broken or bent rear spokes. I am still riding on the stock wheels that came with the bike, Jalco DRX2000's with 28 spokes. I weigh in at about 235lbs. Should I look at moving up to a 32 spoke rear wheel? Anybody have an opinion on the Shimano 105/DT Swiss R450 Rear Clincher Wheel. It is reasonably priced and money is a factor right now.

what year is the bike and did you buy it new? if it is a new bike your dealer should be looking at getting you new wheels.

Perhaps a little more info might help. Where are they breaking? Did you get them retensioned after a couple hundred miles? Are they butted?

Often, a new machine built wheel comes in quite a bit under or unevenly tensioned. This can make for oscillation cycles at the hub/spoke intersection that can fatigue the spoke. Butted spokes tend to hold this tension more like a rubber band as compared to a straight, stiff shaft. Good 28 spoke wheels should hold up to your weight, provided you are not off-roading or hot dogging with your bike. I'd say you either have poor quality spokes, or they were improperly tensioned. That means under/over/or uneven tensioning. My 2 pennys.

18 more broken spokes and you will have a completely hand built wheel.

Just my opinion but unless you are riding on really good roads and are a smooth rider, 28 spokes is too few for a rear wheel for someone at your weight. I recommend a 32 spoke 3-cross rear wheel. In the mean time I would suggest detensioning your current wheel and making sure the heads of the spokes are set then retentions and true the wheel. You may find that you get more mileage and less broken spokes when doing this. There are resources that explain the process of setting the spoke heads at the hub; some call for using a punch and mallet and other processes call for bending the spokes slightly at the elbow to give them more of the proper angle to the rim. Search and read up on these issues.

-j

I weigh in at about 235lbs. Should I look at moving up to a 32 spoke rear wheel? Anybody have an opinion on the Shimano 105/DT Swiss R450 Rear Clincher Wheel. It is reasonably priced and money is a factor right now.

Yes, more spokes; I never went below 36h on rear wheel when I weighed 235. Shimano 105 is a good hub but I can't speak to the DTswiss rim.

Bikes are basically engineered around rider weights of less than 200#s. I'm not saying that you're too heavy, since there's lots of safety margin, but that you should exercise some judgment whenever considering components intended for competition, or where saving weight was a design consideration.

For some perspective, not that long ago 36 spoke wheels were the norm, with the British prefering 40rear/32 front. Over the years (with no significant improvement in the technology or materials, 32 spokes become the norm. In all fairness that's generally adequate, and I find that my 32 spoke wheels hold up about as well as my 36 spoke wheels used to. (I weigh 190#s)

Given your weight, I'd definitely go with a set of properly built 32 spoke wheels (14g DB stainless spokes, decent hub, medium weight double wall rim). I'm not saying that well built 28 spoke wheels won't hold up, but that given that you weigh more than 20% more than the high range of design weight, buying yourself some extra margin of strength can't hurt.

I think you would have less trouble with a 36 spoke rear wheel. It would hold up better and stay true longer.

I think you would have less trouble with a 36 spoke rear wheel. It would hold up better and stay true longer.

You're right, and I would have suggested 36h wheels, but they're rarer in prebuilt wheels, and the availability of rims is rapidly declining, so if he went to 36h the OP could be facing fewer choices down the road when time came to rebuild.

Discounting the availability issue I'm with you 100%, at his weight more spoke strength is better.

Another option for the OP if buying hand built wheels is 14/13g single butted spokes for the right flange and 14/15/14 or 14/16/14 butted spokes for the left. This will allow more balanced tension in the dished wheel while putting more material to the task.

Now that you have found the shortcomings of the factory wheels ,
A hand built wheel will be an improvement..
when the spoke tension has to be raised on the right side of the wheel to cram in all those sprockets
the strength is compromised.. consider something like DT alpine, spokes on the right, 3 gages.
hook a 13, center a 15 and a 14 where the nipple threads are.
a 14 15 14 is probably fine for the left side..

36r/32f pair is worth a consideration skinny race like tires like 23mm would use a thinner rim
a wider tire say a 32 will work best on a wider rim, but I don't know the preferences clearances
of the frame of the bike and rider.

and if the OP does not work on their own bike, the wheel truing/tensioning
is part of maintenance, schedule it to be checked occasionally..

You're right, and I would have suggested 36h wheels, but they're rarer in prebuilt wheels, and the availability of rims is rapidly declining, so if he went to 36h the OP could be facing fewer choices down the road when time came to rebuild.

Discounting the availability issue I'm with you 100%, at his weight more spoke strength is better.

Another option for the OP if buying hand built wheels is 14/13g single butted spokes for the right flange and 14/15/14 or 14/16/14 butted spokes for the left. This will allow more balanced tension in the dished wheel while putting more material to the task.

I would say its near impossible to find prebuilt 36h wheels; at least I haven't had any luck. Availability of 36h rims seems hit and miss. A year ago I had to wait a couple of months for 36h Mavics on back order. More recently, most sites I checked seemed to have them in stock. But, even so, they are getting harder to find.

You're right, and I would have suggested 36h wheels, but they're rarer in prebuilt wheels, and the availability of rims is rapidly declining, so if he went to 36h the OP could be facing fewer choices down the road when time came to rebuild.

Discounting the availability issue I'm with you 100%, at his weight more spoke strength is better.

Another option for the OP if buying hand built wheels is 14/13g single butted spokes for the right flange and 14/15 or 14/16 dutted spokes for the left. This will allow more balanced tension in the dished wheel while putting more material to the task.

Yeah, OK. I rebuilt a set of 36 hole wheels with Mavic Open Pros that have held up very well. I checked at the DT Swiss home site and the R 450 suggested by the OP is a rim, not a wheel. It is offered as a 32 hole, sleeve jointed rim with no eyelets. I assume this means it is less expensive than their welded rims. If available I think the 36 hole OP rim (with eyelets) would be better for his rear wheel. If within budget I would recommend DT Swiss Alpine triple butted 2.0 - 1.8 - 2.34 (14 - 15 - 13 gauge) spokes, assuming the hub spoke holes are big enough, or DT Competition double butted 2.0 - 1.8 - 2.0 spokes. I will not use a spoke that is smaller than 2.0 mm (14 gauge) at the hub flange. I do not disagree with your recommendations above.

I would say its near impossible to find prebuilt 36h wheels; at least I haven't had any luck. Availability of 36h rims seems hit and miss. A year ago I had to wait a couple of months for 36h Mavics on back order. More recently, most sites I checked seemed to have them in stock. But, even so, they are getting harder to find.

Some cheap 36H, cassette hub, rear wheel options: http://www.niagaracycle.com/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=36h+rear+wheel+700c+cassette

If sourcing 36H rims was a concern, buy up a few now and be set for many, many years. How often is anyone going through rims after all?

Some cheap 36H, cassette hub, rear wheel options: http://www.niagaracycle.com/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=36h+rear+wheel+700c+cassette

If sourcing 36H rims was a concern, buy up a few now and be set for many, many years. How often is anyone going through rims after all?

From what I've seen, rims are the first wheel component to fail, even before spokes. I had a DT RR 1.1 rim crack this year. Of course it was 7 years old. I rebuilt the wheel using the old spokes and aluminum alloy nipples.

From what I've seen, rims are the first wheel component to fail, even before spokes. I had a DT RR 1.1 rim crack this year. Of course it was 7 years old. I rebuilt the wheel using the old spokes and aluminum alloy nipples.

Which sort of proves my point. If you bought four 36H rims now (any investment of less than $100 for a budget rim like the Alex X101: http://www.niagaracycle.com/product_info.php?products_id=1066), you'd be good for almost 30 years at that rate. If you used disc brakes or did most of your braking up front, you might get even better rim life.

Which sort of proves my point. If you bought four 36H rims now (any investment of less than $100 for a budget rim like the Alex X101: http://www.niagaracycle.com/product_info.php?products_id=1066), you'd be good for almost 30 years at that rate. If you used disc brakes or did most of your braking up front, you might get even better rim life.

Yeah the price seems pretty good on those wheels even though you have to take an 8-speed cassette with the wheels. According to the site they do not offer the rims as separate components.

Yeah the price seems pretty good on those wheels even though you have to take an 8-speed cassette with the wheels. According to the site they do not offer the rims as separate components.

I linked to the Alex X101 rim (available separately for under $20) in my post. An 8/9 speed cassette hub will accept a 10 speed cassette too.

I linked to the Alex X101 rim (available separately for under $20) in my post. An 8/9 speed cassette hub will accept a 10 speed cassette too.

That's shown to be a 25 mm width rim. Too wide for most road bike applications.

.... If within budget I would recommend DT Swiss Alpine triple butted 2.0 - 1.8 - 2.34 (14 - 15 - 13 gauge) spokes, assuming the hub spoke holes are big enough, or DT Competition double butted 2.0 - 1.8 - 2.0 spokes. I will not use a spoke that is smaller than 2.0 mm (14 gauge) at the hub flange.

You and I are basically on the same page, but I'm a firm believer in using different gauges on right and left flanges of high dish wheels. In this regard it's the center section which is most of the length of the spoke that counts. That allows more equal strain (%elongation) of all the spokes despite the tension being lower on the left. The Op should decide on the right flange spokes first, then look for a lighter butted spoke for the left, though like you I won't go below 2.0 at the hub.

You and I are basically on the same page, but I'm a firm believer in using different gauges on right and left flanges of high dish wheels. In this regard it's the center section which is most of the length of the spoke that counts. That allows more equal strain (%elongation) of all the spokes despite the tension being lower on the left. The Op should decide on the right flange spokes first, then look for a lighter butted spoke for the left, though like you I won't go below 2.0 at the hub.

Yes, I do that on my own wheels, 2.0-1.8-2.0 on drive side rear and 2.0-1.5-2.0 (Revolutions) on the non-drive side. But as a general rule I don't recommend Revolutions to people I don't know because they are harder to work with and relatively expensive. Your recommendation, above, for 14/13 single butted spokes on the drive side may be better than mine, but here again, the 13 gauge DT Swiss is 2.34 mm and may be too big for some hub spoke holes and the rest of the spoke is 2.0 mm so you lose some of the shock absorption advantage of double butted spokes. Not saying which is the better choice.

That's shown to be a 25 mm width rim. Too wide for most road bike applications.

Ok, well I tried. I'm sure there are other options out there better suited to a road bike. I was only (originally) countering the point that no 36H pre-built wheels are available.

My dear Mr. Hoffman:

Your problem seems to be a fairly common one these
days, based on my own limited experience with the
people who wander in to the Sacramento Bike Kitchen
for assistance.

I recently contributed about all I want to on the topic
on the Clydesdales forum here:

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php/701314-Wheel-truing-spoke-tensioning-for-heavy-rider

when I made an unguarded remark about how maybe
28 spoke wheels were not such a good idea in
general and particularly in cases where the bike is
a little more loaded. :fight:

It really starts to get interesting around post #35.

While I do not believe that lower spoke wheels in and
of themselves will cause the downfall of Western civilization
and an end to life as we now know it, I'm not 100%
certain they are not a part of some vast conspiracy.

Anyway, read the thread if you get the time. Meanwhile
+1 to all the posts that have told you regarding 32 or even
better 36 spoke wheels (in the words of my grandmother),
that "it couldn't hoit".

Happy New Year,
Mike Larmer

IMO an OCR is worth a whole bunch of spokes.

Pretty sure a properly-built 28h OCR wheel would have a decent safety margin for a 235lb guy.


If you used disc brakes or did most of your braking up front, you might get even better rim life.
IME the most likely thing to kill a front rim is wear from braking, which isn't the case for a rear (although it might be for a nicely-specced OCR).

So I'd say the best way to brake is to use the rear as much as possible, saving the front for when more urgent deceleration is required.

I like the hub. I built up a 36 double butted spoked wheel with a Mavic Open Sport rim for a friend who was your weight and breaking nipples on a shimano 550 rear wheel. He has over 6000 miles on the wheel with no problems.

IME the most likely thing to kill a front rim is wear from braking, which isn't the case for a rear (although it might be for a nicely-specced OCR).

So I'd say the best way to brake is to use the rear as much as possible, saving the front for when more urgent deceleration is required.

I use a front disc and brake at the front 99% of the time. Works for me :)

If I bought a Shimano Tiagra rear hub and want to use an 8 speed cassette, would it be a cool idea to use DT Swiss Champion spokes on the right side and DT Swiss Competition spokes on the left side?

If I bought a Shimano Tiagra rear hub and want to use an 8 speed cassette, would it be a cool idea to use DT Swiss Champion spokes on the right side and DT Swiss Competition spokes on the left side?

The Tiagra hub and 8 speed cassette are irrelevant, but yes, it would be a good (and depending on who you are talking to, cool) idea to use a thinner gauge spoke on the non-drive side. My commuter rear wheel uses Competition spokes on the drive side and Revolution spokes on the non-drive side plus an offset rim. IIRC, NDS tension is ~75-80% of DS with this arrangement.

If I bought a Shimano Tiagra rear hub and want to use an 8 speed cassette, would it be a cool idea to use DT Swiss Champion spokes on the right side and DT Swiss Competition spokes on the left side?

I don't stay up with the various brand names, but if you considering using a thicker spoke on the right than the left, then it makes sense as a way to compensate for the lower tension. I'm a strong believer in butted spokes at the hub end so I use different gauges (thin section) of 14g/xx spokes right and left, or for heavy duty wheels use a 14/13g single butted spoke on the right side and a 14/16g spoke on the left.

If I bought a Shimano Tiagra rear hub and want to use an 8 speed cassette, would it be a cool idea to use DT Swiss Champion spokes on the right side and DT Swiss Competition spokes on the left side?

Yes but a 105 hub woud be better.

Yes but a 105 hub woud be better.

Well, I mean I got the Tiagra hub on sale for $19.10 and the WTB Freedom Ryder 23 rim on sale for $16.88. Even after shipping, it was a pretty good deal. :)

I like Tiagra hubs. I've got wheels with Tiagra hubs and wheels with Ultegra hubs. When you have them apart to rebuild them, you can see the differences in the parts, but I haven't had to rebuild the Tiagras any more often, and they spin beautifully after the rebuild.

Well, I mean I got the Tiagra hub on sale for $19.10 and the WTB Freedom Ryder 23 rim on sale for $16.88. Even after shipping, it was a pretty good deal. :)

Tiagra is certainly good enough.

DT Swiss Champion spokes on the right side and DT Swiss Competition spokes on the left side?
You mean straight 14 ga right, butted on the left?,

a budget saver: maybe use 14 0n the right 15 on the left, Plain on both sides?
and 15 on the front ..
Have a 20+ year old 36 spoke wheel set built with straight 15 gage spokes ,
and It's been fine..

.. though it's my occasional sport bike now..

I like Tiagra hubs. I've got wheels with Tiagra hubs and wheels with Ultegra hubs. When you have them apart to rebuild them, you can see the differences in the parts, but I haven't had to rebuild the Tiagras any more often, and they spin beautifully after the rebuild.

How often do you regrease the hubs? (EDIT: or how many miles I should say)

By the way, I can't remember who uses bees wax for the spokes, but if this person is reading this, do you put bees wax on one side or both sides?

EDIT: So, just to make this clear, straight gauge shorter spokes on the drive side and longer double butted on the non-drive side?

The Beeswax is a vegan thread lube, I use Anti Seize .

that goes on the spoke threads as I insert them into the rim.

touch up Truing goes better..

Another option for the OP if buying hand built wheels is 14/13g single butted spokes for the right flange and 14/15/14 or 14/16/14 butted spokes for the left. This will allow more balanced tension in the dished wheel while putting more material to the task.Tension ratio between the two sides isn't going to change with spoke diameter on one side.

Thinner spokes on the left may be good because they stretch more at a given tension so it takes more rim movement (vertically or laterally) until they go slack and allow the nipples to unscrew or wheel to collapse and windup at their low tension is less.

To get more balanced tension you need to change the bracing angle (most probably by using an offset rim (Velocity, IRD), although heads-in radial and cross-1 drive side lacing will do it (with neither being a good idea in this case)) or use fewer non-drive side spokes (triplet lacing between a 32 hole hub and 24 hole rim with 16 drive side spokes but only 8 non-drive-side would do it).

If I bought a Shimano Tiagra rear hub and want to use an 8 speed cassette, would it be a cool idea to use DT Swiss Champion spokes on the right side and DT Swiss Competition spokes on the left side?

Straight gauge spokes will cost about $3.50 less a side and have less windup but aren't going to provide a performance advantage and will concentrate the stresses in the elbows.

Straight gauge spokes will cost about $3.50 less a side and have less windup but aren't going to provide a performance advantage and will concentrate the stresses in the elbows.

What is windup?

EDIT: As a matter of fact, would there really be a problem if I did choose straight gauge spokes on both sides and put beeswax on the threads on both sides?

How often do you regrease the hubs? (EDIT: or how many miles I should say)

It's hard to say how many miles I put on my hubs before regreasing them as I have a couple of wheelsets that I switch around. I would guess I went about 4000 miles before I did it for the rear hub, but about half that in the front. I used these wheels mostly for commuting, but also for about two dozen very muddy cyclocross races in that time, so they saw some pretty nasty conditions. The original grease was still surprisingly clean. I probably could have gone longer.

Regarding the straight spokes, they make building the wheel a lot easier. Double-butted spokes are both lighter and stronger, but straight spokes will still give you a pretty good wheel. I say this as a very amateur wheel builder. I've built four wheels.

What is windup?

As spokes tighten friction in the thread increases. That means that the turning nipple tries to turn the spoke with it. It's a problem with any screw, but the longer and slender it is the more the screw will begin to twist over it's length. Spokes are about as long and slender a screw as you'll find anywhere, so when you turn the nipple the spoke will twist somewhat until there's enough resistance for the nipple to actually turn with respect to the spoke. You'll feel it as you do some of the final tightening. Greater twist makes it harder to gauge what you're doing when you do final alignment, and makes it harder. The thinner the spoke the greater the amount of twist.

Different builders have tricks to manage twist, which must be removed when the wheel is finished, or the spoke will untwist over time undoing some of your work. Some develop a feel for it, others use some marking technique.

As spokes tighten friction in the thread increases. That means that the turning nipple tries to turn the spoke with it. It's a problem with any screw, but the longer and slender it is the more the screw will begin to twist over it's length.


And a little bit of diameter makes a big difference since torsional stiffness is proportional to the 4th power of diameter. A straight 14 gauge (2.0mm) spoke is 1.5X as stiff as a 14/15 (1.8mm) double butted one and 3.2X as stiff a 14/17 (1.5mm)