Classic & Vintage - What era is this stem from? AVA. Death Stem?

http://cgi.ebay.com/AVA-Stem-Classic-French-Road-Quill-80mm-25-6-Clamp-/280617612309?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item41561cf415

considering this for a build (68/69 LeJeune), but not sure if it would be somewhat period correct.

22mm base? to fit a french headset/fork.

is this a "death stem" model, with 2 slots?

alex

22.0mm is correct for a French stem, but I thought they all had a 25.0mm clamp area, but I could be wrong......

shnibop,
I have a very similar AVA stem that NLerner traded me. He told me it was not a "death stem". I trust him. The clamp bolt design is just like the one to which you linked. I did not measure that stem's clamp area, but it has a Japanese randonneur bar in it as we speak. I can only assume that that bar has a 25.4mm diameter. I have seen more modern French stems with 25.4mm clamps and, of course, Cinelli sold stems with 22.0 diameters that accepted a 26.4mm handlebar.

You trusted me?! Bwahahahahahahah!

The AVA death stem has an open back and lots of hollowness. From Sheldon Brown:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/images/avastem500.jpg

Neal

So the original stem from my '72 Jeunet "has a reputation for failure and should be replaced immediately"? But I polished it and everything. It has an opening in the back showing it's hollowness. I think it's an Atax, though. It has a little star on it.

http://gallery.me.com/justinhughes/100201/Jeunet%20630%20%233/web.jpg?ver=12905253000001

http://gallery.me.com/justinhughes/100201/IMG_3435/web.jpg?ver=12953984130001

Yes, send it to me immediately for proper disposal. In fact, don't even remove it from the bike--just send the whole thing.

Neal

You trusted me?! Bwahahahahahahah!

The AVA death stem has an open back and lots of hollowness. From Sheldon Brown:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/images/avastem500.jpg

Neal

I have a 3ttt stem from the same era with a very similar design, with lots of hollowness and open back - should I be wary of this as well?

All variants of AVA stems w/single expander cutouts and no relief holes are destined to fail at the quill. This includes the 1980's variants that have a revised clamp design.

Late 1970's and 1980's ATAX (Cinelli 1A-copy) stems often have voids and are prone to cracks.

-Kurt

All variants of AVA stems w/a single expander cutout and no relief hole is destined to fail.

-Kurt

My teeth thank you.

My teeth thank you.

Meh. Surely it wouldn't fail on you, Jesse. ;)

Sheldon Brown said that all of the AVA stuff has a reputation for breaking and should be replaced. That includes AVA bars. He didn't restrict it to the particular style in the picture. I also saw in an old thread where he said that all French stems should be replaced. I'm not willing to go that far.

Has anyone seen these things break or a picture of it broken?

I took the picture that is on velobase of a cracked death stem. At least I think its still up.
Sheldons reference has been previously disregaurded as a safty sentiment only. - if you don't know if its dangerous, you should replace it just to be careful.
Aside from this, I have only seen failure in the 2-slot versions. I use (and occasionaly inspect) an AVA stem with 25.4 clamp and one slot. Also I have never heard of the later "open-face" AVA stem having any issue.

Here's a link (http://www.gitaneusa.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=620&highlight=ava) to GitaneUSA about French death stems. No photos of the AVA but some good info.

Cool. I"ve been reading about it and I just happen to have a quill 22.2 stem that I can sand down. But I want it to have the original look. I probably won't be hammering on the bike anytime soon.
That's good to know though.

Here's a link (http://www.gitaneusa.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=620&highlight=ava) to GitaneUSA about French death stems. No photos of the AVA but some good info.

One man's opinion.

That includes AVA bars.

Correct. I have yet to see an AVA bar that isn't bent lower on one side from rider weight than the other.

-Kurt

One man's opinion.

Agreed - just provided as input. It's more prudent to periodically check the stems to make sure issues aren't developing.

I would agree with you that I wouldn't go as far as Sheldon did with his opinion either.

Sheldon Brown said that all of the AVA stuff has a reputation for breaking and should be replaced. That includes AVA bars. He didn't restrict it to the particular style in the picture. I also saw in an old thread where he said that all French stems should be replaced. I'm not willing to go that far.

Perhaps the entire country should be replaced? That would surely be too far...

I have seen a number of cracked and broken stems of various brands.There is always a lot of talk about the so called Ava death stems. Considering the frequency that these supposedly fail you would think there would be a lot of pictures,but i seldom see any,so I tend to be a bit skeptical. As a matter of fact there seems to be little agreement on which models are the death stems.However here are a few pics of an Ava stem that has a scary looking crack.This style which has the vertical bolt is the style which i tend to be wary of.I do not know if this style is the supposed death stem.

....There is always a lot of talk about the so called Ava death stems. Considering the frequency that these supposedly fail you would think there would be a lot of pictures,but i seldom see any,so I tend to be a bit skeptical. ....

+1

My death stem has not cracked in 40 years. That could change tomorrow, but a lot of other things could happen too.

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh117/auchencrow/Peugeot%20PX10/PX10033a.jpg

I used one of these on my wife's Bottecchia mixte build. Now you guys got me all worried. I even polished it all up.

It only takes a few people saying "Death stems", "Death fork", "Death Frame"....."Death bike", then all of the sudden it's taken as fact by everyone and their kittens! I suspect that they might have cracked as shown but most likely most of them did not crack any further than that for most people.

Chombi

COMING TO A BICYCLE SHOP NEAR YOU:

The all NEW Titan Teledyne with Viscount Aerospace Pro aluminum fork. Fitted with AVA stem and bars, Simplex Prestige front and rear derailers, non-stress-relieved Record crankarms, drillium seatpost, and no warranty.

Please bring a valid $1,000,000 life insurance policy with you when you make your purchase.

-Kurt

Here's the same stem mounted to my '62 Continental. Still smiling after 49 years. :)

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p71/pastorbobnlnh/Continental/Campagnoloed%20Continental/ContinentalOverhead-1.jpg

Actually, I'd love to find one, and the reputation be damned. Tearing down the Roger Riviere, I've discovered the stem is damaged (at the expansion bolt), and as I'll probably never ride the bike much (frame is too small) I could care less about the stem's reputation.

I have the remnants of two of the vertical bolt version AVA stem, both broken in half at the quill. I will struggle with the pictures for the immediate time but will post some if you can be patient. Both of them are not the hollow back design. When I saw them I became a believer.

i never realized the death stem was so easy on the eyes.

The all NEW Titan Teledyne with Viscount Aerospace Pro aluminum fork. Fitted with AVA stem and bars, Simplex Prestige front and rear derailers, non-stress-relieved Record crankarms, drillium seatpost, and no warranty.
Aww man, drilled seat posts are in there too? I was actually planning on doing that! Do they actually fail, or is it just one of those "maaaaybe" things? I only weigh 150ish and don't ride that hard...

Actually, I'd love to find one, and the reputation be damned. Tearing down the Roger Riviere, I've discovered the stem is damaged (at the expansion bolt), and as I'll probably never ride the bike much (frame is too small) I could care less about the stem's reputation.
I've still got the stem from my girlfriends 70ish Peugeot around here somewhere if you want it, cost of shipping(probably $5?). I have no idea what brand it is, it was off of a UO-18(I think that's what it's called), and has a squared off top. If that sounds of interest let me know and I'll see if I can dig it up and get you a picture.

Disclaimer: Not liable if said stem leads to your death.

Meh. Surely it wouldn't fail on you, Jesse. ;)

I have survived a Helicomatic before. Bring on the AVA

I have survived a Helicomatic before. Bring on the AVA

- I upgraded my AVA Death stem bike with a Helicomatic hub. Smooth as silk! :thumb:

All variants of AVA stems w/single expander cutouts and no relief holes are destined to fail at the quill. This includes the 1980's variants that have a revised clamp design.


I have the remnants of two of the vertical bolt version AVA stem, both broken in half at the quill.

Would someone please explain what the word "quill" means?

I am troubled, since the stem in Sheldon's photo, as posted by Neal up on page 1 of this thread, doesn't even have a quill. As I understand the word "quill."

As I understand it, a "quill" is, in the first sense, the end of a large flight feather of a goose, cut at an angle to use as a pen.

By extension, any cylindrical form that is similarly cut at an angle is said to be a quill.

This is a quill stem:
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31TNm%2Bb9jHL._SL500_AA300_.jpg
This is not:
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/images/avastem200.jpg

By extension, anything cut at an angle may be said to be a quill.
This is a quill pedal:
http://i2.avlws.com/157/l61503.png
This is not:
http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ2Es7EyoSt64oDTRtd8ucx6GVi9VW6IVR85iZuGmgMP38HXTPaYw&t=1

RHM -
The machinery dictionary definition for "Quill" is as follows:

"a hollow shaft or sleeve through which another independently rotating shaft may pass. "

Hence, its application to stems and pedals on bicycles.

RHM -
The machinery dictionary definition for "Quill" is as follows:

"a hollow shaft or sleeve through which another independently rotating shaft may pass. "

Hence, its application to stems and pedals on bicycles.

Thanks for addressing this issue! Needless to say, I don't have that dictionary. Aside from that, there are some problems with this definition:

Where's the independently rotating shaft in a stem? You mean the bolt that tightens up the wedge? I don't believe that qualifies, and it's not independently rotating except for when you're in the act of tightening it.

Nor does this definition explain why a road-style pedal is a quill pedal while a clipless pedal, or a platform pedal, or a block pedal, or a track-style pedal, is not.

Would someone please explain what the word "quill" means?

I am troubled, since the stem in Sheldon's photo, as posted by Neal up on page 1 of this thread, doesn't even have a quill. As I understand the word "quill."

As I understand it, a "quill" is, in the first sense, the end of a large flight feather of a goose, cut at an angle to use as a pen.

By extension, any cylindrical form that is similarly cut at an angle is said to be a quill.




quill [kwɪl]
n
1. (Life Sciences & Allied Applications / Zoology)
a. any of the large stiff feathers of the wing or tail of a bird
b. the long hollow central part of a bird's feather; calamus
2. a bird's feather made into a pen for writing
3. (Life Sciences & Allied Applications / Zoology) any of the stiff hollow spines of a porcupine or hedgehog
4. (Music, other) a device, formerly usually made from a crow quill, for plucking a harpsichord string
5. (Individual Sports & Recreations / Angling) Angling a length of feather barb stripped of barbules and used for the body of some artificial flies
6. (Life Sciences & Allied Applications / Botany) a small roll of bark, esp one of dried cinnamon
7. (Clothing, Personal Arts & Crafts / Textiles) (in weaving) a bobbin or spindle
8. (Clothing & Fashion) a fluted fold, as in a ruff
9. (Engineering / Mechanical Engineering) a hollow shaft that rotates upon an inner spindle or concentrically about an internal shaft
vb (tr)
1. (Clothing, Personal Arts & Crafts / Textiles) to wind (thread, yarn, etc.) onto a spool or bobbin
2. (Clothing & Fashion) to make or press fluted folds in (a ruff)
[C15 (in the sense: hollow reed or pipe): of uncertain origin; compare Middle Low German quiele quill]
Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 200

If you look at #9 in the various meanings/uses
of the word, you see what I have always taken
as the usage in regard to stems (i.e. a hollow
shaft with a center bolt that pulls up on some
sort of wedge or expander bolt).

I believe it is the hollow shaft aspect, rather
than the angle of cut, that is referenced in
"quill" stem. Otherwise, we are left with the
additional problem of what to call the other
guys.:eek:

But in all honesty, you got me on the pedals.
I have never understood that particular usage.
Because you would think that all pedals would
then be "quill" pedals.

And perhaps a quill pen isn't such because of its shape but because of the hollow shaft through which ink flows. The pedals are a bastardization of the term, I'd guess.

Neal

And perhaps a quill pen isn't such because of its shape but because of the hollow shaft through which ink flows. The pedals are a bastardization of the term, I'd guess.

Neal

Today I Learned.

The pedals are a bastardization of the term, I'd guess.

A pedal contains a hollow shaft in which a spindle with grease or other lubricant (should but not always) resides. Keeps the bearings and races happy.

Okay, I'll accept that quill fundamentally refers to a hollow tube, of which the goose feather is merely one example.

I'm still in the dark about what we mean when we say "this stem is going to fail at the quill."

I'm also in the dark about what makes one kind of pedal a quill, while others are not; they all have a hollow tube on them somewhere.

....what makes one kind of pedal a quill, while others are not; they all have a hollow tube on them somewhere.

I would think it would be fair to say that all bicycle pedals are technically quill pedals, but some specialized types have acquired more specific names in the popular lexicon, while others have not.

According to this a quill pedal is one that accepts toe clips. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_pedal

It must be true because I read it in the Internet.

I thought quill pedals were called that because of the point that comes up on the outside to help keep the foot in place. That seemed to make sense, as did the diagonal cut on the end of a stem. Apparently, I'm wrong and that's what I get for trying to explain something with logic.

There's no reason why quill can't mean one thing when it comes to stems and another when it comes to pedals. Language is funny that way.

Neal

Has anyone ever built a "Death Bike" incorporating the death stem & the death fork ..etc? it would be pretty funny.

I thought quill pedals were called that because of the point that comes up on the outside to help keep the foot in place. That seemed to make sense, as did the diagonal cut on the end of a stem. Apparently, I'm wrong and that's what I get for trying to explain something with logic.

You're not the only one.

There's no reason why quill can't mean one thing when it comes to stems and another when it comes to pedals. Language is funny that way.

Granted. But in its initial application, the word was used in reference to something, some aspect of the thing described. The term quill was chosen because it described some aspect of the pedal, and some aspect of the stem. It doesn't have to refer to the same aspect of the thing; but in each case, there should be something on the quill pedal that is absent on the non-quill pedal; and something on the quill stem that is absent on the non-quill stem.

I'm still wondering: when the stem broke at the quill, where did it break?

I'm still wondering: when the stem broke at the quill, where did it break?

http://www.todayifoundout.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/tootsie-pop-owl.jpg

The world may never know, Rudi.

The AVA death stem has an open back and lots of hollowness.
Neal

Oooo, I've had those, I'm still alive! But yeah, I'm sure there's better stuff. THe droopy bars are just as scary.

Is there an etymologist in the house??!!

Getting back on topic, and without re-reading everything I read long ago about death stems, my understanding was that stress cracks form just above the slots in the stem where the expansion bolt is. The crack runs horizontally around the stem, and when it reaches all the way around, snap. Out comes the stem. Also from what I remember reading, formation of the crack leading to eventual failure is slow and progressive. So if you inspect your stem and don't see any signs of cracking yet, you should be safe... at least for a while.

Actually, I'd love to find one, and the reputation be damned. Tearing down the Roger Riviere, I've discovered the stem is damaged (at the expansion bolt), and as I'll probably never ride the bike much (frame is too small) I could care less about the stem's reputation.

Not sure I have a loose AVA, but might have another French stem I can spare if you need one. Shoot me your address and approx size. I know I bought a few some years ago for cheap.