Classic & Vintage - a 'rare' Paramount w/ 50th groupo

I got an alert for a Colbalto posting on ebay, and turnws out it is not a Cobalto brakeset but a nice looking Paramount w/ a 50th Campi group. starting price is $6500

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150556345269

http://i.ebayimg.com/24/!CESyrI!!Wk~$(KGrHqIOKiYE0D7!,ErOBNRbOkwWcQ~~_3.JPG

http://i.ebayimg.com/11/!CESzFY!!mk~$(KGrHqYOKnUEz1r)VGYcBNRbPG4OoQ~~_3.JPG

I think the hat comes with the bike.

http://i.ebayimg.com/07/!CESzI,wCGk~$(KGrHqQOKo0E0flOvQubBNRbPKqTMw~~_3.JPG

Pretty steep!

That RD doesn't look right. What's up with the gold anodizing?

EDIT: Bad lighting.

-Kurt

Too bad it is not my size, otherwise I would be all over it. :rolleyes:

It's funny, but I wouldn't even pay a grand for that bike if it was offered to me BIN. I have no lust for 50th anniversary Campagnolo and this Paramount, maybe I would pay $500 for the frame/fork. It looks bad with the Brooks. It looks bad with "ergo" bars. It looks bad with the Velocity rims. It looks bad with the F'd up cable routing.

The first thing I noticed was the Velocity. Way out of place. It is like '66 GT350 with 22" DUB. And why was the seller keep using "Cobalto".

The first thing I noticed was the Velocity. Way out of place. It is like '66 GT350 with 22" DUB. And why was the seller keep using "Cobalto".

The buyer will apparently wheelieing in his or her tight jeans.

Kinda makes that Raleigh Pro with the parchment restoration
credential look like a deal.:D

But I was under the impression that the Design Group Paramounts
were a separate division in Schwinn at the time and that their
frames were sourced in Japan? The Waterfords were a whole
different deal, no?

Some Schwinn fanatic rescue me here. I had little interest
in them until I ended up with three in the last year. I did
read "No Hands, the Rise and Fall ..." but some time ago.

Mike Larmer

Kinda makes that Raleigh Pro with the parchment restoration
credential look like a deal.:D

But I was under the impression that the Design Group Paramounts
were a separate division in Schwinn at the time and that their
frames were sourced in Japan? The Waterfords were a whole
different deal, no?

Some Schwinn fanatic rescue me here. I had little interest
in them until I ended up with three in the last year. I did
read "No Hands, the Rise and Fall ..." but some time ago.

Mike Larmer

It's a legitimate Waterford built Paramount. It was about this time that Schwinn began to design and then "outsourced" Asian built Paramounts. Those were designed in Waterford, WI. At the same time the US made ones still were being produced.

But I was under the impression that the Design Group Paramounts
were a separate division in Schwinn at the time and that their
frames were sourced in Japan? The Waterfords were a whole
different deal, no?


The idea that PDG = Asian-built is one of those vintage bike myths that refuses to die. The Paramount Design Group was part of the Waterford operation. It's the PDG Series bikes that were built in Asia.

The 50th + 50th deal is something of a cliche. They're not from the same year, either. Does nothing for me, but I can see why some folks dig it. Sellers do tend to assume that the 50th group adds more value to a bike than tends to be the case. They also tend to assume that the 50th Anniversary frames are worth more than tends to be the case market-wise. $6500 is probably a big stretch.

I don't think he's THAT far off...what is an unused 50th group worth? About 2500? Figure another 1500 for the frame and 300 for misc. parts? He's a third high...but that's why he has the make offer option.

but that's why he has the make offer option.

He has the "Make Offer" option for the person who'll offer him $6,399. Most sellers simply abuse that system; the best offer they'll accept is usually 2% under their asking price - in other words, hardly a discount.

They'll trash talk you too, in the same manner you might expect from a Craigslister.

-Kurt

I'm a bit confused. Is it a USA built frame? Was 1988 the 50th anniversary year for the Paramounts?

I think the frame and the gruppo complement each other. I don't think the 5 year difference in build dates is anything to worry about. I'm not a big fan of gold plating but the fork and the 50th groupset gold highlights do go together quite well. I like the fact that Campagnolo produced a groupset that celebrates their company and how fitting it was that it occurred when they were still producing their Super Record Gruppo. I wonder how many quality bikes were fitted with that particular groupset throughout the world?

As for the Paramounts, I was under the impression that they were a revered and iconic bike in the US of A. I would love to have one. I think of what you can currently buy for $6,500 and then compare it to a craftsman built steel bike - no comparison in my eyes.

The bars and the rims would have to go though.

I'm a bit confused. Is it a USA built frame? Was 1988 the 50th anniversary year for the Paramounts?
Yes, it's a USA built frame made at Schwinn's Paramount Design Group facility in Waterford, Wisconsin. The Paramount was introduced in 1938, so 1988 was the fiftieth anniversary year.

All 1988 Paramounts were fiftieth anniversary models and had the fiftieth anniversary decals, but the fiftieth anniversary "commemorative edition" was a limited number of bikes with the gold plated fork.

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d7/k4drd/Bicycles/Schwinn%20Publ%20Pages/50thAnnivCommemorative.jpg

Thanks Scooper - looks like a nice frame from your image. Do you have a Paramount?

Thanks Scooper - looks like a nice frame from your image. Do you have a Paramount?
Gary, I have three of them. It's a sickness.

BTW, here's a photo of the Paramount Design Group open house in 1983, two years after Paramount production moved from the Chicago factory to Waterford.

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d7/k4drd/Bicycles/Schwinn%20Publ%20Pages/PDG1983OpenHouse.jpg

I don't think he's THAT far off...what is an unused 50th group worth? About 2500? Figure another 1500 for the frame and 300 for misc. parts? He's a third high...but that's why he has the make offer option.

The thing is, that kind of addition tends not to work in the marketplace, at least historically. Mounted 50th gruppos don't tend to add that much value, and the frame + group formula doesn't usually work. But there are exceptions - this is ebay we're talking about, after all.

The idea that PDG = Asian-built is one of those vintage bike myths that refuses to die. The Paramount Design Group was part of the Waterford operation. It's the PDG Series bikes that were built in Asia.
But not all of the PDG Series bikes were made in Asia- there were several that were made in Waterford.

But not all of the PDG Series bikes were made in Asia- there were several that were made in Waterford.

The vast majority were built in Asia. The only ones that weren't were mountain bikes or the few built by Kestrel. In other words, if you see a steel "Series" Paramount road bike, it was built in Asia.

But not all of the PDG Series bikes were made in Asia- there were several that were made in Waterford.
That's right. The Series 9C wasn't built in Asia. It had a composite frame and a run of about 1000 frames were made by Kestrel in 1992. The other non-Asian Series Paramount was in 1994 after the 1992 bankruptcy when the new owners of Schwinn had a shortage of the top-end R80 MTB and commissioned Waterford Precision Cycles build some and then ship them to Taiwan for painting and fabrication.

He has the "Make Offer" option for the person who'll offer him $6,399. Most sellers simply abuse that system; the best offer they'll accept is usually 2% under their asking price - in other words, hardly a discount.

They'll trash talk you too, in the same manner you might expect from a Craigslister.

-Kurt

It's hard to say without knowing the seller, but that hasn't been my experience as a seller or as a buyer. I bought my SR gruppo with a "make an offer" about 10% lower than a decent price...I considered that a fair offer and so did the seller. Speaking of, I LOVE Velomine. I've generally offered whatever I think a fair offer is and have had good luck. I've never been insulted or harassed and I think I've easily come to an agreement every time I've made an offer. I also don't offer $10 for something worth $100.

As a seller...I've used the make an offer function and generally mark up about 20% what I actually expect to get. The make an offer is just a way to make buyers feel more empowered...like they set their price. I've found it's a good way to make everyone happy on a transaction. It's really no different to me than craigslist...no matter what you ask, buyers will offer less. I always ask for more than I expect assuming the post-barter price is about where I want to be. It's just psychological...if I ask for $200 and hold firm, the buyer feels he paid my price. If I ask $250 and negotiate to $200...he feels like he got me and bargained me down. I'm happy to stroke someone's ego so long as I get what I want.


The thing is, that kind of addition tends not to work in the marketplace, at least historically. Mounted 50th gruppos don't tend to add that much value, and the frame + group formula doesn't usually work. But there are exceptions - this is ebay we're talking about, after all.

That's probably true...it always seems like selling as complete bike equates with taking a hit. Still...in terms of parts value, he's not that nuts. I'd wager if he put this up for a long period open auction he'd get $3000 on it as is...and he'd possibly get near $5,000 parting out.

I'd wager if he put this up for a long period open auction he'd get $3000 on it as is...

That's my guess range as well. Regarding parting out vs. complete bike, I was also speaking to the fact that 50th groups in particular often don't add the value the seller expects.

I feel like I see those 50th anniversary groups show up on Bikes on ebay a lot more frequently than I'd expect if they're really as rare as all the sellers make them out to be.

Isn't this about the same thing, for a little over half the price?
http://cgi.ebay.com/Schwinn-Paramount-50th-Anniversary-MINT-CONDITION-/320650559333?pt=Road_Bikes&hash=item4aa8433f65

I think I fixed it now, try again.

Yep; now it works.

Isn't this about the same thing, for a little over half the price?
http://cgi.ebay.com/Schwinn-Paramount-50th-Anniversary-MINT-CONDITION-/320650559333?pt=Road_Bikes&hash=item4aa8433f65
No Deep-Vs so not as much cred with hipsters...

No Deep-Vs so not as much cred with hipsters...

Also, although it is hard to tell from the photos,
it appears the spoke nipples have been tensioned
on this one. Kind of a deal breaker for me.:D

Wow, I've heard of a hollow pin chain, but first time I've actually looked at one.

http://i.ebayimg.com/09/!CEVCFtgBGk~$(KGrHqZ,!lYEz+2+5gwYBNRfJJCHB!~~_3.JPG

Can those pins withstand a normal chain tool?

^ The hollow pin chains have a few normal links for maintenance.

Here's another. This one is on display at Missing Link in Berkeley, CA. (Sorry for the crappy photo. It's displayed up high behind a light, making it hard to get a good angle.)

http://i850.photobucket.com/albums/ab69/gaucho510/IMG_1864.jpg

Isn't this about the same thing, for a little over half the price?
http://cgi.ebay.com/Schwinn-Paramount-50th-Anniversary-MINT-CONDITION-/320650559333?pt=Road_Bikes&hash=item4aa8433f65


looks the same to me except nicer wheels. the extra 3K must be for the empty group case and the hat LOL

looks the same to me except nicer wheels. the extra 3K must be for the empty group case and the hat LOL

According to the listing, it includes the case, so that must be one special hat.

Isn't this about the same thing, for a little over half the price?
http://cgi.ebay.com/Schwinn-Paramount-50th-Anniversary-MINT-CONDITION-/320650559333?pt=Road_Bikes&hash=item4aa8433f65

That one is half the price because it is not Cobalto 50th Anniversary.

That one is half the price because it is not Cobalto 50th Anniversary.

Huh?

Gary, I have three of them. It's a sickness.

BTW, here's a photo of the Paramount Design Group open house in 1983, two years after Paramount production moved from the Chicago factory to Waterford.

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d7/k4drd/Bicycles/Schwinn%20Publ%20Pages/PDG1983OpenHouse.jpg

They look like a bunch of hipsters!!

Huh?

It was a joke. The 1st seller used the term "Cobalto 50th Anniversary" multiple times in his eBay description. He now revised and dropped "Cobalto" from his description.

It was a joke. The 1st seller used the term "Cobalto 50th Anniversary" multiple times in his eBay description. He now revised and dropped "Cobalto" from his description.

Gotcha. I was looking and looking at the listing photos and scratching my head.

The buyer will apparently wheelieing in his or her tight jeans.

we can't help it.

http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k75/13deluxe/IMG_0853.jpg