Classic & Vintage - Library of Reproduction Decals?

Like many others here I've had to locate NOS or reproduction decals for my builds, some of which have been pretty nice and others that turned out to be rather shabby and low in quality. As a graphic designer I have many of the tools necessary for accurately reproducing the artwork for decals, and it gives me a chance to bring together my vocation with my avocation. After a recent dialogue with rhm - who was kind enough to send me a vector art file for a Columbus tubing decal - it occurred to me that there are probably lots of reproduction art files floating around out there and I wondered if anyone would be interested in contributing those files here in a sort of "library" so others would be able to use them or reference them. Anyway, I rebuilt the Columbus decal that rhm sent to me and I share it here in .jpg format. If you would like a copy in vector art format (for which you'll probably need Adobe Illustrator or similar to actually view, but it's what printers will want from you) send me a PM, along with your email address.

190048

I think this is pretty accurate - much more so than the reproduction water slide decals I recently stumbled across at a swap meet.

I think this is a great idea. Maybe you should ask cuda2k (Jon Fischer) if he'd be willing to host this on VeloBase. If he doesn't want to do it, then a group on Yahoo.groups would come with file space accessible for uploads and download by subscribers to the group. Did rhm also give you the fork decal for the Columbus?

This is a great idea. You are all welcome to space on my server, if you wish. Good job on the Columbus decal.

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php/709672-Decal-Logo-Knockoffs

Randy, if you are serious about hosting these I think that is what is really needed for storing good quality vector files. I have some Columbus and others I'd be willing to share.

I was going to say, "I can host them" but it looks a like a few others have offered already.

I have a few more things I'll contribute. I have some reservations about the legal matters, though. If you ever got this going well enough to become a useful database, it would sooner or later attract the attention of the owners of the various trademarks, and who knows what they'd do. But, I hasten to add, I'm not a lawyer. So what do I know.

I think this is a great idea. Maybe you should ask cuda2k (Jon Fischer) if he'd be willing to host this on VeloBase. If he doesn't want to do it, then a group on Yahoo.groups would come with file space accessible for uploads and download by subscribers to the group. Did rhm also give you the fork decal for the Columbus?

Charles, he did send me reference for the fork decal too, but seeing as how yesterday was Valentine's Day, I knocked off work to take my wife to dinner. Had I finished the fork decals, I would have been sleeping on the couch with the dog. I will add those when I safely complete them later this week.

Randy, your offer to host is a very welcome offer. I don't want to be one of those guys who suggests an idea and hands it off, saying "Well here you go - you put it all together!" i.e., let me know what I can do.

Also, I wonder if this is the sort of venture that deserves to be a sticky note?

I have a few more things I'll contribute. I have some reservations about the legal matters, though. If you ever got this going well enough to become a useful database, it would sooner or later attract the attention of the owners of the various trademarks, and who knows what they'd do. But, I hasten to add, I'm not a lawyer. So what do I know.

This concerns me too - especially as I am highly published on the matter of copyright infringement. I'm going to go out on a limb and view this as a collection of hobbyist resources. Just don't add any Microsoft, Adobe, or Apple logos to the archive!

I'm uniformed in this area, so this basic question: Can you make water slide-off decals like the originals or are all current reproductions vinyl? Seems to me the vinyl is much thicker and thicker still if you try to clear coat.

Here's one. Might be trouble because its still in use.

I have a later style Columbus SL that I did in Vector (Illustrator). Once I locate it I'll be happy to send it and would like to swap for your earlier style, "vector for vector", it's not on this computer so will have to be tonight...I'll PM you
EDIT: here's a jpeg of a single, I have a whole letter-page filled with them.190121

Can you make water slide-off decals like the originals or are all current reproductions vinyl?

Yes, you can still make waterslides, though it might be tough to find a place that can do it. Kind of obsolete. Some of the modern transfers seem to be pigment on top of pigment, so thinner than those on a vinyl base. Cyclomondos from ebay seem to be made that way.

This concerns me too - especially as I am highly published on the matter of copyright infringement. I'm going to go out on a limb and view this as a collection of hobbyist resources. Just don't add any Microsoft, Adobe, or Apple logos to the archive!

IANAL, but I think this should be handled in a manner similar to libraries like you-tube, where if the copyright/trademark holder requests it that the material will be removed. They would be given the option of providing an alternate source for that material. For example if Bicycle Company X doesn't want their name or logo used, because they sell the originals, that's fine. The library would have the option of stating: This name/logo has been removed due to the trademark holders request, you can email joe@bicyclecompanyx.com or telephone 1-800-555-9234 to order, part number 29803-84727.

By the same token a trademark owner can donate original copies for library use.

I never actually gave any thought to the copyright thing, and that is a very good concern to raise. I am certainly willing to give it a try, but there would have to be some guidelines for us to work with. I do not want to start putting every Tom, Dick and Harry's poorly developed art on my website.

So, I am going to keep an eye on this thread. If Velobase passes, I will pick up the ball and see what happens. How does that sound.

For what it is worth, I am just about finished the face lift on MY "TEN SPEEDS". I am excited about the website, and hope to give it to you all, soon...

Yes, you can still make waterslides, though it might be tough to find a place that can do it. Kind of obsolete. Some of the modern transfers seem to be pigment on top of pigment, so thinner than those on a vinyl base. Cyclomondos from ebay seem to be made that way.

You can purchase waterslide decal print media. With a good quality inkjet printer and a can of Krylon clearcoat, you can create excellent quality waterslide decals. The company I've purchased media from has it in both white and clear background.

I am certainly willing to give it a try, but there would have to be some guidelines for us to work with. I do not want to start putting every Tom, Dick and Harry's poorly developed art on my website.

I agree - I've seen some pretty crappy copies. My preference would be toward both quality and accuracy.

Don't worry about it Randy, I won't be submitting any. :D

both white and clear background.

In my experience the clear is worthless unless going on a white bike as the printed colors are not opaque.

I just bought a bunch of decal paper and vinyls from Papilio and have been playing.

In my experience the clear is worthless unless going on a white bike as the printed colors are not opaque.

True.

In my experience the clear is worthless unless going on a white bike as the printed colors are not opaque.

Clear decal over chrome sort of works, also. But, I agree. Clear is hard to see...
http://www.mytenspeeds.com/My_TenSpeeds_1/Bicycles_Table/English_Bicycles/Carlton_Bicycles/CarltonFlyer/CarltonFlyerRestoredFullSideRightClosePlusDecals.jpg

You can purchase waterslide decal print media. With a good quality inkjet printer and a can of Krylon clearcoat, you can create excellent quality waterslide decals. The company I've purchased media from has it in both white and clear background.

How does that work, a waterslide decal needs to be wet in order to install it, most ink-jet printers use a water soluable ink, which will run severely if it gets wet.

How does that work, a waterslide decal needs to be wet in order to install it, most ink-jet printers use a water soluable ink, which will run severely if it gets wet.

Coat with clear [& let dry] prior to the water bath.

A how to print decals sticky would be great. From jpg (or whatever) to final instal, including best practice and BOM (bill of material).

Coat with clear [& let dry] prior to the water bath.

Right, be sure to use Crystal Clear; give it at least five coats and let it thoroughly dry between coats. Most directions call for just three but I've run into leaks with three, so I overdo it now. Crystal Clear seals it pretty darned good.

In my experience the clear is worthless unless going on a white bike as the printed colors are not opaque.


Is this always true? Can one do a color adjustment on the printed colors to achieve solid colors and still have clear areas?

How does that work, a waterslide decal needs to be wet in order to install it, most ink-jet printers use a water soluable ink, which will run severely if it gets wet.

The Papilio inkjet papers come with a coating you apply over the printed decal sheet. I've had no trouble in my experiments, though I'm thinking the white vinyl might be a better solution. Also, inkjet inks have improved quite a bit, and can be "water resistant" when dry.

The Carlton illustrates the problem with clear...


Is this always true? Can one do a color adjustment on the printed colors to achieve solid colors and still have clear areas?

What color adjustment? Transparent is see through and opaque is not. The inks are transparent. I've wondered if you could double or triple print a sheet, but I doubt it would register.

I've got a repro issue that I've been attempting to get H Lloyds to print. They have a lot of restrictions on which version of .ai or CorelDraw they accept and will not print to clear stock.

Here is another comment from a collector in the U.K. who raises a couple interesting points, particularly about UV stability:

"Most people these days are printing decals on thin adhesive plastic film. The important thing being the UV stability of the film and the ink if they are to retain their appearance for a number of years. They do not have to be printed by a specialist decal manufacturer: I had some made up by a local sign company that produces all sorts of signage and printed products and the results were very good.

"From a quality perspective, these decals are generally considered superior to water slide or varnish fix decals, but they have the disadvantage of extra thickness. The thickness can be masked by clearcoat, but that has the disadvantage of giving a finish which doesn't look at all period correct. Dulling the finish on the clearcoat can make things look better. Perhaps the experienced refinishers can advise how to get the most realistic vintage appearance using plastic film decals."


This thread is very useful. When I finish my decal repro, I will happily add it to the collection for future use by others.

Is this always true? Can one do a color adjustment on the printed colors to achieve solid colors and still have clear areas?

I used a Canon printer on clear waterslide decal stock. This printer used powdered resin toner (polyester I believe), not liquid ink, and fuses the toner with heat...sometimes the heat can ruin some plastic films, but the stock I used was fine. Colors are pretty opaque, not as much as real decal ink, but much more than inkjet ink and I'm betting that the toner will turn out to be pretty fade-resistant over time. Nevertheless, I coated with Krystal Klear (acrylic) as the directions called for, and used the new UV formula that Krylon makes now.

I've got a repro issue that I've been attempting to get H Lloyds to print.

For vinyl, you can go to any sign shop, like FastSigns. Depending on the quality of your art and the skill of the operator, its possible to get totally original looking stuff, plus they can cut to complex shapes.

Just to be anal, decals (from decalcomania) can only be waterslides: rub-ons are transfers and sticky vinyl are stickers. But everone calls them decals these days.

As I said before, Cyclomondo on ebay seems to be printing pigments directly on top of each other to make the sticker, rather than on a blank piece of vinyl. His (and Velo-Cals too) are quite thin. I'm not familiar with what process they're using.

I used a Canon printer on clear waterslide decal stock. This printer used powdered resin toner (polyester I believe), not liquid ink, and fuses the toner with heat...sometimes the heat can ruin some plastic films, but the stock I used was fine. Colors are pretty opaque, not as much as real decal ink, but much more than inkjet ink and I'm betting that the toner will turn out to be pretty fade-resistant over time. Nevertheless, I coated with Krystal Klear (acrylic) as the directions called for, and used the new UV formula that Krylon makes now.

The now obsolete ALPS 5000 was a fantastic decal printer. Could print silver, gold and white as well as cmyk. Also difficult to make a fully opaque decal, but I got pretty close by layering silver and/or white base coats. Quite tedious to print from though, but the printer had a feature that would hold the paper through multiple ins and outs to maintain registration. I might pull it out again when I have time...

And honestly, though I can do all this, I'd much rather just buy them if available!

Gentlemen,

I have a project on which I really need help. I hesitate to lay it out here, as it's still pretty rough. If it's TMI, I'd appreciate if someone would be willing to help me off list. But it's about reproducing some decals, so...

I've acquired a late 50's British path racer. A write up on the make is found at the British Classic Lightweights site: http://www.classiclightweights.co.uk/builders/hilton-wrigley-builders.html

The author of that page is helping me. My frame is currently in his hands. The issue is that my frame has a "crest" on both the head and seat tubes that he has never seen before. And I really, really want to duplicate these.

Half of my headache is that H. Lloyds, the main British source for repro decals, will not reproduce a decal with clear space. He also wants the .ai files in very, very old versions - but that's another issue.

I have a rough draft of the art. There is need to balance a couple letters (x-height), and the colors are off, but you can get the idea.

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o191/LeicaLad/WrigleyCycles-1a.png

Here is what the original looks like on the bike, as it is now.

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o191/LeicaLad/WrigleyCrest.jpg
http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o191/LeicaLad/DSC01875.jpg

It is really hard to tell if that decal was done with clear, and the light blue of the frame is showing through, OR if it has light blue base color IN the decal. Norris, the man who has the frame, insists that it IS a decal and not mask-painted.

He also has 4 or 5 Hilton Wrigley frames that need refinishing, so this art will be used as more than just a one-off.

When done, I'll put this final artwork into the Library. According to another correspondent, there are many of these bikes still in the attics of West Yorkshire Riding, for those inclined to go hunting!!!

Any recommendations for how to print this right? Clear back? No?

Thanks so much.

I have a rough draft of the art. There is need to balance a couple letters (x-height), and the colors are off, but you can get the idea.

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o191/LeicaLad/WrigleyCycles-1a.png

Here is what the original looks like on the bike, as it is now.


http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o191/LeicaLad/DSC01875.jpg

I understand you want to replicate the graphic; you're not planning to repaint that frame, are you?

Re your art, it's distorted. The line under "WRIGLEY" and the cross in the shield are doubtless composed of straight lines. I can't tell whether the shield has a clear background, but if it's the same color as the head panel, I presume it's clear. White would look good either way.

Once you have the art done, contact listmember JRestore (= Velocals). He can print up as many of them as you like, waterslide or vinyl. I asked him about printing a few for me, and I thought the price was pretty reasonable, especially after I'd spent many hours hand painting decals.

If you want to print a few, as one-off (I know, you said you didn't), there is a way to do it with a laser printer. I worked up the head badge and downtube decals for my Fothergill this way. I then printed them backwards on clear waterslide paper, hand painted the white, gold, and red portions, then applied them to the frame backwards. My results (and my paint job on the bike) are pretty imperfect; it would be nice to have the bike professionally painted and have JR print the decals properly, but I'm not going to that expense on a bike I haven't ridden yet (well, I've ridden it now, but when I painted it, I hadn't).

I must get a better picture of the bike with its home-made decals one of these days... but here's something to give you an idea what it looks like:
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5052/5451171691_10105011f4_z.jpg

Many thanks for the comments. I'll hope that such examples make the thread useful for others, too.

I haven't decided whether the distortion/curvature of those lines is good or not. But it's a true observation. The letters on the scroll at the bottom also have this look, and I'm less fond of it there.

You're seeing the best part of the frame. Norris tells me that the chain stays have been repainted and the seat stays "desperately" need to be not only resprayed, but a bit of work to cover some pitting from too many English winters.

If this were, say, an Ephgrave, a Hetchins or Claud Butler - meaning a name well-known, then a classic frame with patina has cache. But this is so rare, and it's war scars have not provenance. Thus, I'm leaning hard to a proper, English style of refinish to its original look. If you see the Classic Lightweight builder page above, there is a fabulous example of a Hilton Wrigley that has been restored. I think, in a case like this, it's really the best thing to do. I'm still open to the argument, but if I can sort out the decal issue to something that will be "right", then I'm pushing for the refinish.

Very nice Fothergill, by the way.

Thanks, again, for the pointers on how to do this!!!

I haven't decided whether the distortion/curvature of those lines is good or not. But it's a true observation. The letters on the scroll at the bottom also have this look, and I'm less fond of it there.
Understood. Working only from the photos, it's really hard to distinguish the curvature of the tube from that of curved lines following the curve of the tube. No worries: you'll know what's what as soon as you see the frame in real life.


You're seeing the best part of the frame. Norris tells me that the chain stays have been repainted and the seat stays "desperately" need to be not only resprayed, but a bit of work to cover some pitting from too many English winters.
I believe it. Bikes often look better in photos than they do in real life.


If this were, say, an Ephgrave, a Hetchins or Claud Butler - meaning a name well-known, then a classic frame with patina has cache. But this is so rare, and it's war scars have not provenance. Thus, I'm leaning hard to a proper, English style of refinish to its original look.
Sorry, but I don't follow. I understand that certain well known brands such as those you mentioned will command a higher price because more people have heard of them and are looking for them; but that's just an oddity of the market and the "rosebud effect." And I wouldn't say patina has any cache; patina is merely an inevitable part of the natural aging process of a bike that has been ridden, and as such is neither good nor bad. It's nothing to be ashamed of, but not something to be preserved in its own right. Original paint has some cache but if it's bad it's bad and there's no way around that. Original decals, however, are a real prize. The decals I see in your photos are in fabulous condition, and should be preserved for that reason alone, regardless of their rarity. If they are as rare as you say (and I have no reason to doubt you) then that rarity adds further cache.

To this I'll add something I know from professional experience: the rarer something is, the less likely it is that anyone will believe it. Speaking hypothetically here: if (1) you have the only original examples of those decals, and (2) you reproduce them perfectly and (3) then destroy the originals, then people (like me) will tend to doubt the accuracy of your reproductions. Art historians go by what they know, and if they don't know something, they don't believe it. I can't tell you how many times I've heard someone (a colleague, or even myself) say "I've never seen that before. It can't be right!"


If you see the Classic Lightweight builder page above, there is a fabulous example of a Hilton Wrigley that has been restored. I think, in a case like this, it's really the best thing to do. I'm still open to the argument, but if I can sort out the decal issue to something that will be "right", then I'm pushing for the refinish.

Fair enough. Obviously (1) I haven't seen it, so I don't know what I'm talking about, (2) bikes like this often look better in photos than they do in real life, and (3) it's not my call anyway. Nonetheless, I would urge restraint, especially if the frame decals are rare or even unique. If you can match the frame paint fairly well, you can do a partial repaint that preserves the original decals and some of the patina while sealing and preserving the frame itself.

You will always have the option of doing a full restoration.

a couple of home-made decals on beldecal clear waterslide paper. I had good artwork, but didn't have foil to print them on, so no silver. This type definitely works best on a white background.
190290190289
I had a nice close-up of the headtube, but it was lost to a system crash.

I've tried printing yellow for a blue frame - they look green. Inkjet colors have their limitations.

Anyone have any artwork for Armstrong?? I have one that I'm going to restore. (It's been repainted badly)

a couple of home-made decals on beldecal clear waterslide paper. I had good artwork, but didn't have foil to print them on, so no silver. This type definitely works best on a white background.
190290190289
I had a nice close-up of the headtube, but it was lost to a system crash.

I've tried printing yellow for a blue frame - they look green. Inkjet colors have their limitations.

Inkjet colors, due to their transparency, definitely have their limitations. However, there are usually some decent "workarounds." I had a Mercier with a great drawing of a cyclist printed onto a foil label. Sadly, it was in terrible disrepair so I created a clear waterslide, then adhered it onto a very thin silver foil self-adhesive, which I then sealed with a couple of coats of Krylon. After trimming to match the die cut, it was pretty spectacular reproduction, even if I do say so myself!

I had a chance to recreate the Columbus tube decal in vector art (Illustrator CS5) earlier this week. Tonight I finished up the fork decal vector art. I think I've managed to match the original very closely, right down to rebuilding the Columbus logotype. I present them here for the group's approval; if you would like a copy of the vector art send me a PM. After messing around with someone else's mediocre water decal reproduction last week (I really should have known better!), I'm going to go ahead and print a couple sets of water decals for my own use. Many, many thanks to the folks who've sent me scans this past week, so that I could confidently reproduce these.

rhm, thanks for the thoughtful comments. I'm the first to admit I have much to learn.

What I really hope is that this idea of a proper library of public domain decal art can become real.

I am Exceedingly Grateful for the help, off-line, I have received on my specific art questions. Amazingly good hearted people here.

But, how to move this idea of a proper library forward?

Anyone have any artwork for Armstrong?? I have one that I'm going to restore. (It's been repainted badly)

I have a 1930's Armstrong roadster sitting upside down in my basement, waiting for me to build a new rear wheel for it (I've got a hub dated AW-9, and I know where I'm getting a rim, just haven't got it yet). Anyway, it has tolerably complete decals and a decal head badge. Is that the right vintage?

Several BFers have suggested I set up this archive as a Yahoo Group, which I've now done. My original idea was to capture vector art files (as opposed to .jpg files) because those will yield the highest quality print image and it's what a decal or printing firm will want to receive from you. Industry standard is Adobe Illustrator, but there are other graphics programs that will create vector art files (Freehand, for instance.) Right now there are only two files that have been uploaded... but that's a start! The idea here is to create a public archive, free of charge - i.e., no selling!

I would ask that you be sure to convert all fonts to paths (referred to, also, as converting to outlines) before you submit a vector art file to the archive. It might also be helpful to include a low-resolution .jpg file of the original graphic when it's available so that users can determine for themselves how accurate the reproduction is before going to the expense and trouble of printing a new graphic.

So this is my official invitation to add any vector art you are willing to contribute for the public good, including decals, stickers, head badges graphics, tube graphics, etc. I have several reproductions I've generated and will be uploading soon, including Mercier, Motobecane, Peugeot, Bottecchia, and a few harder to find graphics. I've also been collecting some reference material for some interesting vintage graphics that I plan to generate - well, just because I can - and will add those as I complete them.

If BF could accept Illustrator files, I'd simply add it here and save myself the trouble; however it doesn't do so. If you are interested, you can subscribe to the group for decal reproductions at bicycle_decals-subscribe@yahoogroups.com. (bicycle_decals-subscribe@yahoogroups.com)

^great idea, I hope it reaches its potential!

I would suggest a second library, not of vectors or jpeg or whatever, but just of images of rare decals from which a vector artist could work. The Armstrong decals I mentioned above, for example; I won't be refinishing the bike I have, so I have no reason to make the vector graphics of its decals; but someone might want to. In most cases, I think you'll find that the person who most wants a certain decal is the very person who doesn't know what it looks like.

^great idea, I hope it reaches its potential!

I would suggest a second library, not of vectors or jpeg or whatever, but just of images of rare decals from which a vector artist could work. The Armstrong decals I mentioned above, for example; I won't be refinishing the bike I have, so I have no reason to make the vector graphics of its decals; but someone might want to. In most cases, I think you'll find that the person who most wants a certain decal is the very person who doesn't know what it looks like.

Excellent point. I notice that the group has a section for photographs, which would make a perfect location for archiving such images. I'll check it out to see if I can add some sort of label to that section to identify it as such.

BTW, that Armstrong decal intrigues me and I may try to recreate it eventually.

Excellent point. I notice that the group has a section for photographs, which would make a perfect location for archiving such images. I'll check it out to see if I can add some sort of label to that section to identify it as such.

BTW, that Armstrong decal intrigues me and I may try to recreate it eventually.

Okay, I'll try to photograph them!

Eventually.