Folding Bikes - Convince me I'd be happy commuting on a folder WITHOUT disc brakes!

I just started a thread (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php/714114-Folder-with-disc-brakes) asking for help choosing a folder with disc brakes for daily commuting. There were a number of responses questioning my "need' for discs; I'd like to keep the other thread confined to the original topic, so I'm opening a discussion here to debate the actual merits of different braking systems on folders. I got a lot of interesting responses, and I do want to respond to them because although my experiences give me a pretty solid belief in discs for wet weather, I do think it's a conversation worth having.


Regular bike commuter in Portland, OR ... except I have a multimodal commute to the suburbs.
...
This is Portland, Oregon. It drizzles for half the year. My regular commute involves as much as 1000' of descending. I ride in a busy urban environment where panic stops are occasionally necessary. To me, that means disc brakes. I've been commuting with discs since 2004 and there is no way in heck I'm going back.

So is there something about 20" wheels, or folding bikes generally, that makes rim brakes work better than on bigger-wheeled bikes?

A little background on my experiences and how in the past I have not found rim brakes to be acceptable for my commute. In the early 2000s I used to ride a cyclocross bike; but I upgraded it to V brakes (with 287v levers) when I found the Avid Shortys just weren't up to the job. Big improvement, and they worked great in the rain -- as long as the rims were clean and the pads weren't glazed. Problem is, after a week or two of riding in the rain my braking performance would diminish. A LOT. In a panic stop I'd grab a handful of brake and have to wait a second or two -- a couple of wheel revolutions -- before I'd have enough braking power to lock the wheels. When I'm rocketing down a hill at 50 ft/sec, or cruising downtown and panic stopping from 25 ft/sec for some idiot who pulls out in front of me, that is unacceptable. I could restore full braking performance by scrubbing down and cleaning the rims and pads, but having to do that once every few days is not acceptable either.

The other problem was pad glazing. Even with the ridiculous maintenance task of regular rim cleaning, after a few weeks of riding down 1000' hills I'd find the pads glazing up, and to restore full braking I would have to attack the pads with a file to remove the crud. And that was with red or blue Ritchey pads -- the problem was even worse with harder pads.

I converted to discs for commuting more than 6 years ago, and I haven't looked back. They solved all of my problems: maximum braking is instantly available in any conditions with a single finger on the lever. Disc brakes have become standard equipment on nearly every dedicated commuter bike above the $1000 price point or so, and that price cutoff is dropping steadily; that's been particularly true in this bike-crazy town where discs have particular advantages. While the bike industry is highly susceptible to profit-generating fads, I've been pretty well convinced by my own experiences that this particular trend is functionally justified.

To those of you who are commuting in rainy, hilly urban environments with rim brakes: what's your magic bullet? How do you keep rim brakes working well enough for optimal safety? Or is there something about the physics small wheels that makes rim brakes work better? Or are caliper brakes such as on the Brompton that much better than Vs? Or is it just that disc brakes another thing like the Internet or smart phones or quality beer -- if you've never experienced it you don't really know what you're missing, but once you have had it you'll never go back?

If I were you, I wouldn't think twice: Get a Brompton. I ride mine in mid traffic in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil. Your urban environment cannot be more panic stop demanding than Rio! It is hilly, it is wet, it is violent and it has over 11 million people with over 6 million tourists during summer. My Brompton had AMAZING stopping powers.Wow, that's quite a testimonial. Are the Brompton's calipers just that much better than V-brakes? I haven't ridden a road bike with calipers in many, many years, but I've definitely heard from roadies who think they're a lot better. I will also check in with Clever Cycles in town, who no doubt field the same question on a daily basis, and see what they have to say about Bromptons in our conditions.


I can lock up ALL my folding bikes' rim brakes. Even if the rims are dirty and the pads are glazed? Instantly? I sure tried to make rim brakes work for me and with the day-in/day-out grime I just couldn't. I'm honestly not trying to be hostile or defensive, I'm just trying to learn about others' experiences. Maybe I was doing something wrong.

add that I've seen a re machined Drum Brake that Greenspeed the Australian
recumbent trike manufacturer and Brompton Distributor down there
It fits in the 74 wide fork of the folding bike.

[Greenspeed cuts an X-FDD hub in half , drills spoke holes
in the side face of the drum] so it's then quite narrow.

example:
www.wrhpv.com/small_stuff/hubbrakewheel/index.html

that cures the front rim wear .. then there is just the rear hub to go, Sturmey has IG hubs with drum brakes

may require some Mods to get in the 8 speed version into the rear section, but is certainly possible.
A Glasgow UK dealer has been doing a brisk sales of Modified 8 speed hub and small sized cranks in Brommys.
[33t as, other than the low direct ratio, all the other gears are overdrive.]

I'm sure some of the more technically astute members are about to chime in here, but I'm pretty sure that rim brakes are actually at minor disadvantage on smaller wheels.

For a a given speed, the wheel is making more revolutions, so more wear, heat build-up, etc on the pads / rim.

Any particular reason you aren't considering the 3rd option, drum brakes? No performance drop-off in the wet. Nice and tidy package on a folder. Practically maintenance free. I personally haven't experienced any fade on big descents, but I've heard stories of it being a concern (sorry, can't remember where.).

the current brake on Bromptons is a dual pivot. I put Salmon compound Kool Stop Continental shoes
on my 94 made Brommy , that helped .. and mine is fitted with CLB made for Brompton, single pivot brakes

I ride a 26" folder. Dahon Espresso. Commuting beats up wheels anyway, so by the time a new rim from brake wear would be in order-- well-- the rim has taken enough hits otherwise that it might as well be replaced.

My dahon cost me $190 used. 2 years commuting, 10-33 miles/day 2-3 days/week. Rims are still ok. A new front will be $100 or so. NBD.

add that I've seen a re machined Drum Brake that Greenspeed the Australian
recumbent trike manufacturer and Brompton Distributor down there
It fits in the 74 wide fork of the folding bike.

that cures the front rim wear , , then there is just the rear hub to go, sturmey has IG hubs with drum brakes

may require some Mods to get in the 8 speed version into the rear section, but is certainly possible.
A Glasgow UK dealer has been doing a brisk sales of Modified 8 speed hub and small sized cranks in Brommys.
[33t as, other than the low direct ratio, all the other gears are overdrive.]

Kinetics (http://www.kinetics.org.uk/). No affiliation, just a happy customer. He set-up my Swift with a front / rear drum & IGH. I talked to Ben (Owner of Kinetics) about setting up a Brompton similarly, and in addition to respacing the rear for the IGH, the fork would also need to be spread a bit to fit a drum brake up front.

Modern rim brakes work well and should be perfectly satisfactory for most peoples needs. The only real issue is they wear out and need adjusting etc which is a chore and some people just have trouble with them. Rim brakes are less effective on smaller wheels as the rims are rotating faster to do the same speed as a larger wheel.
I have a Fold-it with front and rear drum brakes, these are amazing. Early drum brakes had a bad reputation but modern ones are exceptionally good. Like disc brakes these work better on smaller wheels. Drum brakes add a bit of weight but almost never need any maintenance. Sturmey archer make drum brakes with 3, 5 or 8 gear hubs or for single speed, there are even versions for cassette hubs.
I have never used disk brakes but I imagine the performance is similar to drum brakes with less weight and more maintenance issues (still less than rim brakes).

P.S. I know you said not to, but the fact is that there are also certain things which change with braking when you go to smaller wheels. All hub brakes work better with smaller wheels and you might find a drum brake sufficient.


I know you said not to derail the thread, but I have to agree with Chucky on this. I live in Glasgow, so I ride in the rain more than I don't, or so it seems. (I wonder which is wetter, Portland or Glasgow -- it must be close) I wasn't thrilled with rim brakes in the wet, so looked at different option on my Swift. I've got drums front and rear, and I'm perfectly happy with their performance. No difficulty locking up either wheel in the dry or wet. They've passed the wet, high speed, downhill, car-just-pulled-out-in-front-of-me test on 3 occasions with no trouble at all. The other advantage with drums on a folder is that everything is on the "inside" so nothing get whacked out of alignment on trains / buses whatnot. They feel different from discs to be sure, but I bet they stop a small wheeled bike just as quick, wet or dry. Not that I've tested this hypothesis. There might be a weight penalty, though. OK, so I hadn't really considered drums. I've heard a lot of complaints about them, but mostly from (1) mountain bikers who've used them and (2) riders of cargo bikes. The latter are exceedingly popular in Portland now, but many of their owners are finding their expensive drum-braked Bakfiets from the Netherlands to be frighteningly inadequate for our conditions. It's not the rain, obviously, because drums are impervious to that. But unlike Amsterdam, Portland has a lot of hills, and American conditions involve higher speed riding and sharing the roads with MUCH less conscientious drivers. Many are finding drum brakes simply not up to the task of panic stopping 300-400 pounds of bike, rider, cargo and child down from American street speeds when some SUV pulls out in front of them, and are having to ride much more conservatively than otherwise necessarily simply due to the long stopping distances. My neighbor, a serious bike geek employed in the industry, has gone to the (considerable) effort of upgrading his Bakfiets to discs as a result.

But again, mountain biking and cargo hauling are a lot more demanding of brakes than commuting. Maybe drums are up to the job for commuting? That would enable a much wider choice of bikes, not to mention dovetail nicely with the addition of an internally geared hub (not a necessity, but something I might consider).

About the "all hub brakes work better with small wheels" ... OK, as a longtime rider of 29" wheeled mountain bikes I have observed and participated in a LOT of "discussions" (you know, the Internet kind, which sometimes get a bit heated) about the effect of wheel size on hub braking systems (which are now used on nearly all mountain bikes). One camp points out that a hub brake on a 29"er will need to exert additional rotational force to achieve the same braking effect against the larger wheels' additional leverage. The argument goes that a larger rotor is thus needed, and many 29" owners (including myself) have therefore opted for 7" rotors instead the 6" standard on 26" XC bikes; and some heavier or more aggressive riders already on 7" rotors have gone to 8" when they switched to the bigger wheels.

But the other camp makes a good point too: although less force is needed at the hub to slow down a smaller wheel from a given rotational velocity, the fact is that smaller wheels rotate a lot faster at a given bike speed, negating that advantage. Although I was in the first camp for many years, I have ultimately become convinced of the latter point of view: that wheelsize effectively cancels itself out of the equation, and is irrelevant.

But my opinion is based on lengthy discussions based on everyone's (variable) knowledge of physics, NOT truly on actual experience. The difference between the two mountain bike wheelsizes is only 10%, and most people would be hard pressed to discern a 10% difference in braking (or lack thereof) between two different -- and usually differently equipped -- bikes.

On the other hand, a typical 700c bike's rotating stock is a full 33% bigger than that of a typical 406mm bike. If wheelsize does make a difference in the effectiveness of hub (or, for that matter, rim) brakes, it would be much more apparent. I'm open to the possibility that drum brakes might just be capable of locking up the wheels from high speeds when the rider is <200 pounds and not subjecting the bike to the kind of repeated braking that you seen when mountain biking.

Modern rim brakes work well and should be perfectly satisfactory for most peoples needs. The only real issue is they wear out and need adjusting etc which is a chore and some people just have trouble with them. Rim brakes are less effective on smaller wheels as the rims are rotating faster to do the same speed as a larger wheel.That's a concern for me too, as my armchair physics knowledge would tell me that rim brakes would be a few percent less effective on small wheels than on big wheels. And I did NOT find rim brakes to be satisfactory for my needs even on 700c wheels, at least for extended use in grimy conditions.

I have a Fold-it with front and rear drum brakes, these are amazing. Early drum brakes had a bad reputation but modern ones are exceptionally good. Like disc brakes these work better on smaller wheels. Drum brakes add a bit of weight but almost never need any maintenance. Sturmey archer make drum brakes with 3, 5 or 8 gear hubs or for single speed, there are even versions for cassette hubs. Chalk up another testimonial for drums!

I have never used disk brakes but I imagine the performance is similar to drum brakes with less weight and more maintenance issues (still less than rim brakes).No real maintenance issues to speak of: turn the knobs every couple hundred miles to adjust for the pads' thinning as they wear, and replace the pads every 1000-2000 miles. Unlike with rim brakes, replacing the pads only takes a few seconds, and doesn't require any readjustment other than backing the knobs out a few turns to compensate for pad thickness. That's it. I would think that drum brakes would have more maintenance issues than discs, due to the necessary repacking if the grease overheats. (We mountain bikers all know how Repack Road (http://www.mtnbikehalloffame.com/page.cfm?pageid=14) got its name!)

You won't be happy unless you have disc brakes.. so narrow your search to bikes that can accommodate disc brakes, folds decently, rides well, sturdy, doesn't cost a fortune.. You're in Oregon, so it just seems a no brainer.. BF customer support is legendary and they build to suit.. call them up and tell them what you want..

OK, so I hadn't really considered drums. I've heard a lot of complaints about them, but mostly from (1) mountain bikers who've used them and (2) riders of cargo bikes. The latter are exceedingly popular in Portland now, but many of their owners are finding their expensive drum-braked Bakfiets from the Netherlands to be frighteningly inadequate for our conditions. It's not the rain, obviously, because drums are impervious to that. But unlike Amsterdam, Portland has a lot of hills, and American conditions involve higher speed riding and sharing the roads with MUCH less conscientious drivers...

...I'm open to the possibility that drum brakes might just be capable of locking up the wheels from high speeds when the rider is <200 pounds and not subjecting the bike to the kind of repeated braking that you seen when mountain biking.

Re: Less conscientious drivers: You should come hang out in Glasgow some time :twitchy:

I've ridden a bike with mechanical discs before, so I can make a couple of observations based soley on my experiences. I'm no mountain biker. I only ride with my kid(s) in tow on the local MUP, and a mix of mostly urban commute type riding and the occasional jaunt into the hilly countryside. There are a couple of bits in town where there I can easily see about 30 MPH bombing down a hill, and there's always somebody pulling out / doing an impromptu U-turn or something right in front of me.

Me + bike + bag on rack weigh something in the 'hood of 230-ish lbs. I have never had a problem with the drums stopping me well enough. If anything, the issue is always the tyres losing grip in the wet. However, I do have to grip the handles HARD when I do a panic stop. The brakes feel really progressive, so one of the things l like about them is they are easy to modulate in slippy bits.

I've done 600 ft descents with no perceptible fade or overheating. Then again, I am not an aggressive rider. As with all things, your mileage will inevitably vary.

They are relatively heavy though.

However, the thing I like the most about them is that I never have to think about them. I've adjusted them once in the 500 odd miles I've run them. On trains, in and out of the back of the car, whatever, I never worry about things breaking. Although I wasn't thrilled with the perfomance of rim brakes in the wet, the biggest reason I switched to drums and and IGH was I was spending too much time futzing and cleaning stuff. As much as I like getting my hands dirty, I really need my bike to just be ready whenever I need it with minimal fuss. This setup does that for me.

although not a folder, but it's a really cool 20 inch with disk brakes:

http://www.cannondale.com/usa/usaeng/Products/Bikes/Recreation-Urban/Hooligan/Details/1316-0HL3-Hooligan-3
nice ride.

That's a concern for me too, as my armchair physics knowledge would tell me that rim brakes would be a few percent less effective on small wheels than on big wheels. And I did NOT find rim brakes to be satisfactory for my needs even on 700c wheels, at least for extended use in grimy conditions.
Chalk up another testimonial for drums!
No real maintenance issues to speak of: turn the knobs every couple hundred miles to adjust for the pads' thinning as they wear, and replace the pads every 1000-2000 miles. Unlike with rim brakes, replacing the pads only takes a few seconds, and doesn't require any readjustment other than backing the knobs out a few turns to compensate for pad thickness. That's it. I would think that drum brakes would have more maintenance issues than discs, due to the necessary repacking if the grease overheats. (We mountain bikers all know how Repack Road (http://www.mtnbikehalloffame.com/page.cfm?pageid=14) got its name!)

There are many different kinds of drum brakes. The good designs don't use grease, but pads. I also suspect that people having difficulty with drum brakes on their Bakfiets have traditional steel vs modern aluminum hub shells. If so then I'm not the least bit surprised with their dissatisfaction because we all know how well steel rims work as a braking surface.

As far as maintenance for drums...there really isn't any. You adjust the cable when it stretches and replace the pads probably as often as you'd replace your disc rotors.

I also doubt there's any weight penalty for using a drum vs disc if you use a normal fork vs a disc fork. Besides, on an odd bike like a folder you might not have many fork choices anyway.

I hate to break your stipulation, but... :D

As far as I know, disc brakes aren't available on folders.

And you don't need them. Just get some good pads, quickly hose off your bike once a week and you'll be fine. I'd guess that most of your problems were due to dirty rims.

You also don't really need to lock the wheel. Unless you actually enjoy endos. :D

If you need the convenience of a folder, then just get one and don't worry about it. People have successfully and happily used rim brakes on folders for over a decade, in all sorts of weather and for all kinds of uses.

One last thing; you should call Bike Friday and see if they are wiling to do a build with disc brakes for you. They may decline, but they do lots of custom work so they might actually do it. If they won't, they can tell you why not.

Problem Solved.

I hate to break your stipulation, but... :D

As far as I know, disc brakes aren't available on folders.In the thread that originated this discussion, I am deciding between a Downtube, a Swift folder (both of which ARE available with discs) or a Bike Friday (see below).


And you don't need them. Just get some good pads, quickly hose off your bike once a week and you'll be fine. I'd guess that most of your problems were due to dirty rims.Unfortunately I have to shut off my outdoor spigot for the winter, which is exactly when cleaning the rims is an issue. So not really a solution, unless I hire a plumber to come out and install a frostproof spigot. Which I may eventually do, but having that decision driven by inadequate bike equipment seems perverse.

And as I've already experienced, hosing off alone won't do it. You've got to scrub down the rims and pads, which is a bigger hassle than the mere act of hosing down the bike. All you're proving to me right now is all the downsides of rim brakes that I remember from big-wheel bikes apply to folders too.


You also don't really need to lock the wheel. Unless you actually enjoy endos. :DI assume you're being facetious, because any experienced rider would have a deeper understanding of riding in traffic. No, I don't need to actually lock the wheel -- but I need to have enough braking power to do that so that I can modulate the brakes up to just short of locking the wheel. I want it instantly, and not have to get by with only half (or less) of maximum braking for the first second or two. The limiting factor needs to be my tires' grip, not my outmoded 19th century braking system.


If you need the convenience of a folder, then just get one and don't worry about it. People have successfully and happily used rim brakes on folders for over a decade, in all sorts of weather and for all kinds of uses.People got successfully and happily without the internet for decades too, but I'm not giving it up. I got along just fine without my iPhone until two years ago, but I'm not giving that up either. If you haven't commuted on discs you may well not know what you're missing. But I'm do, and I'm not giving that up unless someone can convince me that somehow rim brakes on a folder can magically work as well in lousy conditions as discs. "Other people are happy with it" is not going to convince me. I'm looking for some tangible argument about rim brakes' actual physical performance on folders, and so far I'm not hearing it.


One last thing; you should call Bike Friday and see if they are wiling to do a build with disc brakes for you. They may decline, but they do lots of custom work so they might actually do it. If they won't, they can tell you why not.

Problem Solved.:thumb: Now (as you will see in the other thread) I just need to weigh the pros and cons of Bike Friday (after confirming that they will do discs, which sounds likely) vs. Downtube vs. Swift. Three very different bikes, all of which meet my stated "must-have" needs.

You won't be happy unless you have disc brakes.. so narrow your search to bikes that can accommodate disc brakes, folds decently, rides well, sturdy, doesn't cost a fortune.. You're in Oregon, so it just seems a no brainer.. BF customer support is legendary and they build to suit.. call them up and tell them what you want..


I hate to break your stipulation, but... :D

As far as I know, disc brakes aren't available on folders.

And you don't need them. Just get some good pads, quickly hose off your bike once a week and you'll be fine. I'd guess that most of your problems were due to dirty rims.

You also don't really need to lock the wheel. Unless you actually enjoy endos. :D

If you need the convenience of a folder, then just get one and don't worry about it. People have successfully and happily used rim brakes on folders for over a decade, in all sorts of weather and for all kinds of uses.

One last thing; you should call Bike Friday and see if they are wiling to do a build with disc brakes for you. They may decline, but they do lots of custom work so they might actually do it. If they won't, they can tell you why not.

Problem Solved.

I've seen Bike Fridays with disk brakes. I don't think it is an issue.

I think it's pretty safe to say that if you weren't happy with rim brakes on a larger wheel, you won't be on a 20" wheel either.

I've ridden a bike with mechanical discs before, so I can make a couple of observations based soley on my experiences. I'm no mountain biker. I only ride with my kid(s) in tow on the local MUP, and a mix of mostly urban commute type riding and the occasional jaunt into the hilly countryside. There are a couple of bits in town where there I can easily see about 30 MPH bombing down a hill, and there's always somebody pulling out / doing an impromptu U-turn or something right in front of me.

Me + bike + bag on rack weigh something in the 'hood of 230-ish lbs. I have never had a problem with the drums stopping me well enough. If anything, the issue is always the tyres losing grip in the wet. However, I do have to grip the handles HARD when I do a panic stop. The brakes feel really progressive, so one of the things l like about them is they are easy to modulate in slippy bits.Thank you for the comparison! I've been really hoping that someone who's actually ridden a disc-equipped bike in wet conditions would chime in at some point. It's one thing to say you're "happy with" non-disc brakes when you don't know what discs are like; it's another to have experience with discs and other system and say the alternative (drums in this case) works just as well for your needs.

There are many different kinds of drum brakes. The good designs don't use grease, but pads. I also suspect that people having difficulty with drum brakes on their Bakfiets have traditional steel vs modern aluminum hub shells.I'm obviously pretty ignorant of what modern drum brakes are like. Thanks for helping catch me up.

So drums might well be an option for me IF there was a particular folder I wanted that isn't available with discs. So far the only such bike mentioned has been the Brompton. Presumably because of its extremely compact fold -- and while that is amazingly cool, it's not really one of my requirements. I'd probably be satisfied with the folded size of almost any 20" folder. If I could get a Brompton for under $1k I might consider this route, but given that they are MORE expensive than a Friday or a disc Swift, at this point I'm still leaning towards sticking with discs.

As far as I know, disc brakes aren't available on folders.

This is being gone over in the other thread. The Birdy has em, some Dahon's have em, Downtube has everything except the rotors/calipers, Bike Friday has equipped them on occasion, and various users have also modified/upgraded their bikes with em.



And you don't need them. Just get some good pads, quickly hose off your bike once a week and you'll be fine. I'd guess that most of your problems were due to dirty rims.

Of course the problem is dirty rims. That's the problem hub brakes solve, they move the braking surface to a place where it doesn't get dirty so easily.

Also hosing off the bike isn't as easy as it sounds when the pipes are turned off to prevent freezing/bursting. Naturally, this also occurs at the time of year when the roads are dirties and slipperiest.


People have successfully and happily used rim brakes on folders for over a decade, in all sorts of weather and for all kinds of uses.

That's news to me. I thought rim brakes have been the bane of folding bike riders for over a decade. Longer cables, accelerated rim wear, additional rim curvature, and wheel geometry combined with the usual rim brake issues all conspire to create piss poor caliper brake performance for folding bike riders.

You won't be happy unless you have disc brakes.. so narrow your search to bikes that can accommodate disc brakes, folds decently, rides well, sturdy, doesn't cost a fortune.. You're in Oregon, so it just seems a no brainer.. BF customer support is legendary and they build to suit.. call them up and tell them what you want..Although I'm definitely still considering Downtube and Swift as well, I will definitely call them up. Eugene (home of both BF and CAT/HPM, which makes the Swift) is only 100 miles away, so I may need to go down there soon for some test rides.

I think it's pretty safe to say that if you weren't happy with rim brakes on a larger wheel, you won't be on a 20" wheel either. I'm now even more convinced of that than I was yesterday!

I thought rim brakes have been the bane of folding bike riders for over a decade. Ahhhh ... and there it is! Call it confirmation bias if you will, but THAT's the information I've been fishing for!:thumb::D

Yep forget rim brakes. I commute in all weathers, but lately I am trying to avoid actually riding in the wet due to chain and rim wear.

Rim wear: I effectively stopped using rear brakes, as road grime in the wet accelerates rim and pad wear enormously, while not giving much stopping power from the rear wheel. If used regularly in all weather, rear rims will only give you a few 1000km. Since I stopped using rear brakes except in real emergencies or extremely steep descents, my rear rims have stopped wearing (now on 12,000km on my Birdy and of course the rear rim is literally like new (once I wash it! :P ), while the front rim is up for replacement.

I would use front discs if I could get them.

Regarding stopping power from the rear wheel, that isn't much, see Sheldon Brown on this topic. So strictly speaking, address the front wheel for which conversion kits exist.

Another vote for disc brakes here in the Pacific Northwest. Only speaking for myself, and I can't comment on brakes for smaller wheels, but my experience with rim brakes on 26" or 700c wheels here in the Pacific Northwest echo Glow Boy's. I discovered disc brakes after 30 years of riding here with rim brakes and I wouldn't go back either, except on a road bike that doesn't get much time in the rain.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3031/2564893430_0217cfd9b6_z.jpg

If you want discs go for it.

I have used my Tikit as my goto snow and rain bike for 3 yrs. Just replaced a worn out derailleur and cassette. The rims are going strong and should last another 3 yrs without issue. By the time they wear out I'll be ready to upgrade them to some wheel bling!

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4126/5189296527_b141f3a146_z.jpg

I live in the PNW and most of my bikes use v-brakes...a few use discs. I don't really see any practical difference in terms of my riding. When it's raining I don't reach for disc brake bikes usually and I don't have any issue stopping nor do I wear out rims or brake pads usually fast.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3050/2297936729_5c2600f524_z.jpg

Most people around here use rim brakes and are fine in the rain. I'm building my GF a new commuter rig that will be her goto bike and it's got v-brakes.

Ultimately do what makes you happy - both systems work.

if you are thinking about getting drum brakes, let me talk you out of it ... at least if you are considering the Shimano nexave. I have these on my Trek Soho and they suck rocks. sure, they work equally well wet or dry, but I would say they work equally poorly wet or dry. they are generally slow to respond and heaven help you if you are storming downhill and need to stop in a hurry.

i think my Swift's rim brakes are better in the rain than the Soho drum brakes. really, they suck. and yes, I have had them adjusted by a reputable Trek dealer

I just saw a Tikit with a Rohloff and rear disc brakes sell on ebay and the bike was built by BF.

Brompton is WELL KNOWN for having less than optimal braking powers in the past. When I got my first Brompton, you could actually choose an "upgraded" dual caliper brake for a small price. I believe Brompton addressed the issue since 2006, and from 2007 until now, I never had an issue with my Brompton braking. I can lock front and back wheels within fraction of seconds from applying forces to the levers under less than perfect conditions

HOWEVER, I have to be honest with you, cleaning my rims is part of my DAILY routine after riding. So I am not really sure if the Brompton with regular brakes would be a good fit for you.

Unfortunately I have to shut off my outdoor spigot for the winter....
Oh, so you have a spigot? Lucky you. I'm stuck cleaning my bike with a spray bottle. :D



....All you're proving to me right now is all the downsides of rim brakes that I remember from big-wheel bikes apply to folders too.
So, call Bike Friday and get a quote.



any experienced rider would have a deeper understanding of riding in traffic.
I ride regularly in New York City, with (among other bikes) a cross bike with cantis. Somehow, I survive -- as, I suspect, do many riders in the PNW. Including some of these guys.... (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php/599190-Do-you-own-the-perfect-PNW-bike?highlight=brakes)

However, even an experienced rider might not fully grasp the difference between brakes that feel like they have fantastic stopping power, and brakes that have too much mechanical advantage and/or are too grabby, etc etc....

None of this is to talk you out of your preference, only to point out that's pretty much all it is -- a preference. Since there is at least 1 disc option, why not just go for it? There's no need to make a federal case out this.

Not making a federal case out of it, but arguing that you don't want to have brakes powerful enough to lock up the wheels (outside of a muddy cyclocross course) certainly deserved a response!

And you're right that it is a preference. Just like I preferred CDs to vinyl starting in the early '80s, while most of my friends preferred vinyl and "survived" and enjoyed it for quite a few more years. But once I sold the record collection there was no going back. :D


However, even an experienced rider might not fully grasp the difference between brakes that feel like they have fantastic stopping power, and brakes that have too much mechanical advantage and/or are too grabby, etc etc....True, but that's not the case with competently installed mechanical discs. They have excellent modulation and progressiveness. If they had too much mechanical advantage they'd bottom out on the bar like when you match road levers up with V-brakes, but they don't. Sometimes in braking, a lack of responsiveness is just low performance.

So, call Bike Friday and get a quote.Done. Emailed them this afternoon.

A few thoughts:

- think some of the input you're getting isn't coming from people commuting daily all seasons in wet weather, since youre experienced with real commuting youre asking a more scientific question in wanting to understand the best choice

- i use a drum brake in front (sturmey x-fdd + sun cr18 iso406) as a drag brake to assist rim brakes, but my riding doesnt involve quick stops. With it set up in this style (using a friction shifter to pull a derailleur cable) it doesnt have the ability to stop you completely. It will however maintain constant speed down a 10p grade around 120 kgs total weight.

- i think avoiding use of rim brakes is even more interesting for small wheel bikes, because they, from experience, do get dirtier than bigger bikes. More gets thrown up due to typically faster wheel speeds, you're lower to ground

- BF / others have complained that discs are annoying for folding bikes because the disc can get bent easier if transiting them folded

- when wet here, and wet is often, i need to wipe down rim surfaces and pads daily. But I can avoid most rim contact by wise use of the drum drag brake. Just using rim for emergency stops. Drizzle+constant wet is different I think in road grime quantity than the climates that get the 10cm in 2 days, which washes roads well.

- you will have trouble (I think) lacing a drum brake hub to a 16" wheel. 3 cross to a 406 is almost at limits of bending spoke/nipple. Disc of course dont have such large flange area.

- there are not many dynamo+drum brake integrated solutions (xfdd and what?) - and some say that the temperature increase inside dynamo shell can ruin power magnets inside. There are many options for disc+dynamo, including the coveted SON.

My 2010 Brompton brakes are just fine but my commute never includes rain. I live in Phoenix.

I ride a folding bike with disc brakes, the Dahon Cadenza 8 with 26" wheels and Alfine hub.
The Dahon Jetstream (http://www.dahon.com/bikes/2011/jetstream-ex) 20" has disks.

CAT/HPM, which makes the Swift it's a agreement,
He makes a version of them, not all..

If you are thinking about getting drum brakes, let me talk you out of it ... at least if you are considering the Shimano Nexave.

If you're thinking about getting disc brakes let me talk you out of it...at least if you're considering Phil Wood discs like I had on my tandem. The bike would actually speed up if you squeezed the brake levers.

If you're considering caliper brakes, let me talk you out of it...at least if you're considering spindly Weinmanns like my old Schwinn Varsity had!

But seriously, here's more on modern, properly set up, quality disc brakes versus modern, properly set up, scrubbed-in quality drum brakes:
http://www.bentrideronline.com/messageboard/showthread.php?t=56436
http://www.bentrideronline.com/messageboard/showthread.php?t=59336

HTH,
tcs

I had an email conversation with Peter Reich, designer of the Xootr Swift, on this point.

I had had a very bad experience with drum brakes on my Trek Soho and was insisting on discs for my Swift, so I asked Peter if he could build me a frame with disc tabs.

He said that he could, but that it would be a waste of money because a good pair of pads on the small wheels would be quite effective. Moreover, he said that discs would make the bike harder to fold.

So I took his advice and got a stock Swift, only replacing the pads with Koolstop salmons. I have ridden them throughout the Boston winter and have not been disappointed.

I suppose discs are still better, but I have not found myself wanting them anymore

- you will have trouble (I think) lacing a drum brake hub to a 16" wheel. 3 cross to a 406 is almost at limits of bending spoke/nipple. Disc of course dont have such large flange area.

3x? I'd not go higher than 1x for a high flange on a small rim. This will keep the tangent angle of the spoke in the appropriate range (which is the purpose of using higher crosses on larger rims).

I've seen Bike Fridays with disk brakes. I don't think it is an issue.

With notable exceptions (http://www.combingmyhair.com/?p=337).

I use my bikes for commuting and transportation in all weather. My main bike is a Pacific Reach with 20" (451) wheels and rim brakes. It works well enough in dry weather, but when it starts raining I ride my mountain bike with hydraulic discs. I wish I could retrofit discs to the Reach. They're so much better -- more controllable and easier to modulate, and of course, not prone to getting wet and muddy. If it's possible, my next bike will have disc brakes.

With notable exceptions (http://www.combingmyhair.com/?p=337).And THAT is why I am concerned about having disc tabs welded onto a fork not designed for them, which is currently being suggested in the other thread. We mountain bikers learned this lesson a decade ago. Disc brakes do put considerable bending stress on the fork, and properly designed disc forks are generally heavier than comparable rim brake oriented forks.

But that may not be the issue at hand anyway. Rather than a fork not properly designed for the loads imparted by disc braking, this may have been a case of a bad weld.

Here are some interesting excerpts from a drum brake thread I came across at another forum:
"So far, I've been using the brake drum for two weeks. Stopping power is great, on par with my V-brakes on their best day in the dry and as good as the old Tektro disc brakes on my MTB in the wet."
"Perhaps older drum brakes in the past weren't very good but this Sturmey Archer brake stops as well my old Avid V-brakes did in the dry. In wet and snowy conditions, the V-brakes don't hold a candle to the drum."
"So for ****s and giggles at work today, I wanted to see how my bike would fare in a head-to-head braking comparison with a fully disc-equipped bike. So my bike commuting buddy at work who owns a Trek Mendota city bike with Avid BB5's agreed to do a roll-then-stop test. We pedaled side by side to about 12mph and then slammed our brakes to see which bike would have the shortest braking distance. Surprisingly, after 4 tries, the braking was just about dead even each time."
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=23243

My sentiments exactly. Discs are fine, but in dry, clean conditions so are rim brakes. Good properly adjusted drum brakes (ie aluminum Sturmey Archers) are an improvement where improvement is needed (in the wet/dirt), without sacrificing performance when improvement isn't needed (dry/clean), with less maintenance than discs, and (arguably) without the hassle of a special fork...and doubly so for small wheels.


And THAT is why I am concerned about having disc tabs welded onto a fork not designed for them, which is currently being suggested in the other thread. We mountain bikers learned this lesson a decade ago. Disc brakes do put considerable bending stress on the fork, and properly designed disc forks are generally heavier than comparable rim brake oriented forks.

But that may not be the issue at hand anyway. Rather than a fork not properly designed for the loads imparted by disc braking, this may have been a case of a bad weld.

Frankly I don't think much real "specific" design goes on in the bike industry at all. On the contrary it seems much more common for designers to employ an iterative process where reasonable guesses are made and designs are reinforced in response to real world failures. There are countless examples of this across the entire industry which, unfortunately, doesn't bode well for riders of unusual bicycles which don't have as many riders out there putting the designs to the ultimate test.

But what difference does it make if it's an insufficient design or a bad weld? Your skull won't know the difference if it's launched into the pavement at 35mph.

P.S. I wonder if there's something about the disc system that specifically requires more fork reinforcement, because I've never heard of special drum brake forks or fork failures from drum brakes. I pick the lightest weight weenie forks available for my drum brakes and have yet to have a problem (although I only weigh 130 pounds).

I would be happy with a brazed Swift fork... it is plenty strong plus the bending moment is quite a bit smaller compared to a 26" wheel. Commuting also would not pose the braking situations that MTBing does.

I have the Sturmey drums front and rear on my Raleigh, and while the hub shells are aluminium, the actual braking surface (the "drum") is, as far as I can tell, steel. As the pads for drum brakes are much harder than anything used for a rim brake, I'd imagine they would wear an aluminium drum out very rapidly.

Anyway, I can positively endorse drum brakes, as they're adequately powerful with my 700c wheels, so they'd probably be on a par with v-brakes for 20" wheels. The torque arm for the front brake is long enough to put the reaction force from braking on the upper part of the fork, which is thicker and therefore stronger, as opposed to disc brakes, which put all the force on the very tip of the fork blade. At least that's the way I see it, either way, I've yet to break my ancient, mild steel fork, and I've had the drum on it for more than a year, riding a couple of times a week. In my opinion, drums would be perfectly powerful, discs would be needlessly expensive.

But that may not be the issue at hand anyway. Rather than a fork not properly designed for the loads imparted by disc braking, this may have been a case of a bad weld.

It was in fact a combination of the two. Bike Friday does custom stuff and sometimes pushes the envelope. They allowed him to put disc brakes on that sucker when they shouldn't have. HOWEVER Bike Friday has a liberal lifetime frame warranty and replaced the fork and the damaged disc, including payment to a local shop. And he's still on disc brakes, meaning BF no doubt double-checked the new fork for him. BF's got a strong reputation to maintain.

Check out the Chris King headset in the pic. This was someone with a serious investment.

Frankly I don't think much real "specific" design goes on in the bike industry at all. On the contrary it seems much more common for designers to employ an iterative process where reasonable guesses are made and designs are reinforced in response to real world failures. There are countless examples of this across the entire industry which, unfortunately, doesn't bode well for riders of unusual bicycles which don't have as many riders out there putting the designs to the ultimate test. That may well be true in a general sense, but I'm coming from the world of 29" mountain bikes, where there's been a LOT of careful design of the forks due to a convergence of factors:

A-C lengths ranging from 468mm to 490mm even on rigid forks
Almost universal disc use
Awareness of past failures of underbuilt forks (especially the mid-2000s cheap Chinese titanium ones), which got a LOT of people hurt
Awareness of the brutal ride of overbuilt forks such as the ubiquitous Karate Monkey's
Continued pressure to get weight down without compromising safety. A typical steel 29" fork is about 1200g, and the weight weenies have put a lot of pressure on fork designers to get the weight down.

There's a flurry of carbon 29" forks entered into the market in the past couple years. Although reduced weight (often as low as 700g) is usually the primary selling point, there's a ton of competition and the makers are making big deals of the ride quality and durability of their forks.


But what difference does it make if it's an insufficient design or a bad weld? Your skull won't know the difference if it's launched into the pavement at 35mph. No it won't, and bad welds can occur on any fork. But the fact that I can't reduce that risk to zero doesn't mean I should ignore the fact that insufficient design raises it dramatically, probably several-fold.

But your point is a good one: although discs are more or less available on a number of folders, the message is coming through LOUD AND CLEAR that I'm out on the bleeding edge as far as the folder world is concerned. That's pretty incredible to me, since they've been the norm on mountain bikes for a decade and on better commuter bikes for several years running as well.

Sometimes I wonder if I'm better off putting up with a couple more years of transit delays, and waiting to buy a folder until the industry catches up a bit more.

I know plenty of people are satisified with drums, but will they really match the power of discs and not fade on my daily 1000' high speed descents? Or after repeated hard stops downtown? Or if I decide to take my bike on the occasional tour? They sure aren't going to be zero maintenance if I'm overheating them on a regular basis.

And I'm not sure why the maintenance factor of discs keeps getting raised: it's practically zero. I've put many thousands of miles on BB7s, and the most intensive maintenance they've ever needed was a pad change, which takes about 30 seconds.

I'd be interested (maybe at least for the rear wheel) if there was a true consensus that drums are up to the level of discs, but I'm not hearing that. Plenty of comments in the below threads that are unfavorable towards drums relative to discs, and thanks for the links:

But seriously, here's more on modern, properly set up, quality disc brakes versus modern, properly set up, scrubbed-in quality drum brakes:
http://www.bentrideronline.com/messa...ad.php?t=56436
http://www.bentrideronline.com/messa...ad.php?t=59336

One more downside of drums: I'm going to be running drop bars. Avid BB7 Road Discs are a proven road lever compatible solution, and I've been using them on my summer commuter for a couple years. Anyone make drum brakes that are compatible with road levers? Not too interested in futzing with Travel Agents.

But your point is a good one: although discs are more or less available on a number of folders, the message is coming through LOUD AND CLEAR that I'm out on the bleeding edge as far as the folder world is concerned. That's pretty incredible to me, since they've been the norm on mountain bikes for a decade and on better commuter bikes for several years running as well.

Frankly discs aren't necessary for most bikes and so in applications were they cause a hassle nobody is keen on wasting time/$$ to make them happen. On full size bikes they've been slapping discs on everything in sight simply because they are fashionable and with so many more bikes sold it's easier to save $$ and use existing designs. The assumption that discs are necessary or superior to rim brakes is not accurate in my opinion. My fleet includes both discs and rim brakes so I ride them all the time and they work, but they don't rock my world in any special way.

So I don't think the folder world is behind in any meaningful way just because it hasn't jumped on the disc brake bandwagon with abandon.

I know plenty of people are satisified with drums, but will they really match the power of discs and not fade on my daily 1000' high speed descents? Or after repeated hard stops downtown? Or if I decide to take my bike on the occasional tour? They sure aren't going to be zero maintenance if I'm overheating them on a regular basis.

And I'm not sure why the maintenance factor of discs keeps getting raised: it's practically zero. I've put many thousands of miles on BB7s, and the most intensive maintenance they've ever needed was a pad change, which takes about 30 seconds.

doubt it. my experience with drum brakes has been miserable. wet rim brakes with good pads work better

Disc brakes are indeed superior to rim brakes for pure braking power and versatility. (raining/snowing/muddy situation)
Personally I am a weight weenie so I always prefer v brake over heavier disc brake but they are almost extinct in MTB scene.
Now basically ALL new frames and most new prebuilt wheelsets are made for disc only.

And the caliper brake Bromptons use is a very low quality long-reach calipers.. :[

And I have never seen any quality drum brakes either.

Frankly discs aren't necessary for most bikes....
That was what I'd always heard too. Then I got a mountain bike, which came with a nice set of discs. Sure rim brakes can stop the bike, but after experiencing how much better discs are, I will be very reluctant to buy a bike with rim brakes again.

That was what I'd always heard too. Then I got a mountain bike, which came with a nice set of discs. Sure rim brakes can stop the bike, but after experiencing how much better discs are, I will be very reluctant to buy a bike with rim brakes again.

V-brakes or even caliper brakes work quite well under controlled situations. (No moisture, no grit, correct pads, correct toe-in, perfectly true wheelset)