Singlespeed & Fixed Gear - knee pain. worst thing ever.

I've been riding fixed every day for the past 2 years. For just about the entire time, I had my saddle height locked in. When I was putting the bike together, my friend who works as a mechanic dialed in my leg extension by eye and said it looked proper.

Now, about 2 weeks ago I got a new seatpost. I forgot to do measurements before removing old seatpost and installing the new one. So I just went by eye and what felt good. No problems.

A week ago I worked a 7 hour shift and deliveries were super busy. I basically sprinted for 7 hours straight. I started noticing knee discomfort 3/4 of the way into my shift. The next morning, I wake up and start riding to the coffee shop and my left knee was killing me.

I got super paranoid saddle height may have something to do with it so I started making adjustments on the road (I carry tools on me at all times). My seat post is now about 3/4 of a cm (guessing) higher than it was and it seems to help with the knee pain a little but not drastically. I asked a guy at a bike shop about my extension and he said it looked good but he checked it very briefly, as most shops charge for this kinda thing. I doubt one cm could make a world of difference especially when I know my leg extension has always been just about proper. When my saddle was a little lower I felt more powerful/faster.

A week has gone by and my knee still hurts, only when riding. I've been icing it and taking ibuprofen which helps but that's just a quick fix.

What is happening? After all this time riding with no problems, why now? Could that one busy day of work cause this? I've ridden more in a day before with no problems.
Do I just need to take time off the bike altogether?

I've been contemplating seeing the doctor but I don't want to spend $100 to get a prescription for painkillers and hear: "Stay off the bike for a while."

So what do I do? I can't afford not to ride my bike. I've already taken a couple days off of work. I've been riding less and less over the past few days and the pain seems to be getting a little less severe but is still there nonetheless. This is hands down the most frustrating thing, ever.

My knee is completely straight when my heel is on the pedal. When my toe is in the clip, its slightly bent. I'll have a roommate take a picture of my leg extension tomorrow.

Could not even be due to the height but the fore and aft of the saddle. Try moving it forward a few and ride it for a while and see if it helps. If not go the other way. Small adjustments make big differences. Maybe the new seatpost has less or more setback and you never compensated for this when you installed it.

Could not even be due to the height but the fore and aft of the saddle. Try moving it forward a few and ride it for a while and see if it helps. If not go the other way. Small adjustments make big differences. Maybe the new seatpost has less or more setback and you never compensated for this when you installed it.

With OLD seatpost: http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e157/erpdat/pansonic.jpg?t=1298020019
With NEW seatpost: http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e157/erpdat/panasonic-1.jpg?t=1298020510
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e157/erpdat/photo-6.jpg?t=1298020109

Does that look like enough of a difference to be causing this? I swear, if you're right and saddle adjustment solves the problem I will send you cool stuff in the mail.

The new seatpost looks like it has more of a setback than the old one so moving your saddle a little forward would get it to the original position of your old setup. It looks like you already have it positioned forward. It doesnt' look like there is too much room left. But I'm eyeballing it and a lot of times you just can't eyeball things when it comes to measurements on a bike especially from a photo because we are talking about mm of change here.

Your knee issues could just be cumulative damage done to it by years of aggressive fixed gear riding. Maybe the small difference in setback was the straw that broke the camel's back. or in this case the straw that tweaked the fixed gear rider's knees.

What crank length you using? Maybe you can try shorter ones and see if that helps if moving the saddle forward doesn't. Give it time though. maybe you just had a rough day since you mentioned it was a 7 hour shift. It could heal up in a few weeks and go away.

I'm riding 165's. There's still about 1/2 an inch (guesstimating) left that can be moved forward. I'll move the saddle forward very slightly and see if that helps (if my saddle angle looks JA, so be it.) I'm almost 100% positive the leg extension is fine and has nothing to do with it. If, indeed, its just pain from years of beating myself up, where would I go from there? I'd have no problem dropping some cash to see a sports doctor but its a week away until I'll have my tax return. Thank you for the advice!

Maybe your brakelesness finally caught up with you... Not trying to be an ass, I swear... What gear inch you running? Also it looks like you saddle angle is a bit off too, it looks the nose is a bit higher than before. If you need to ride for work, throw a brake on there to give your knees a rest and or drop your gear inch a bit... I have had more leg/ tendon injuries than I can count and im still going strong (my work is riding too). One thing is you need to give it some solid rest. Like not biking at all... Then work it back slowly, again brakes and or lower gi. I personally avoid pain killers as pain is good to tell you that you shouldnt be doing that... Good luck...

My gear ratio is 47/17.. I can't go any lower. I hardly ever skid (mostly use strength to slow down) but when I do, I have my right leg forward and my left knee is having the problems. I don't think the saddle being completely level would cause this, although I did level it out just now when sliding it forward a bit.

Also, I don't see how a brake would help me since the pain is constant, not just when stopping.
I contacted an orthopedic office and holy crap. I'm talking thousands of dollars here. This kinda thing right here makes me very jealous of Canadians. Well, this and a million other things.

Gonna ride in a bit and see what happens :/

It wouldn't hurt to wear a knee brace, right?

Don't go to an orthopedic surgeon.

To a boy with a hammer the whole world looks like a nail.

See a Doctor of Osteopathy or a Doctor who specializes in sports medicine.

Get a prescription for physical therapy.

You injured your knee at work.

Your bike has nothing to do with it.

Try to get a prescription for some PT.
I had a knee injury in early 2010 that resulted in tendinitis and 3 months off the bike...

I hate to say it but time off is the only thing that will heal you. My knee still gives me problems some times but it is under control with stretching everyday and PT exercises.

I also recommend getting a bike fit once you have taken enough time off the bike and start riding slowly. If you can't take time off the bike (for your profession or whatever), it's time to get a new job, because it isn't going to get any better. The specialized BG fit is a good system IMHO and can be found in most cities.

Also I hope you learned your lesson with respect to never measuring your saddle height and fore/aft. Once you get it dialed in, write it down and never forget it.

Can you give us some more specifics with respect to where/how the pain is? Depending on your symptoms I might be able to offer a little more advice.

EDIT: Sorry if I came off as a little harsh. You need to be as proactive as possible about your knee though, because you don't want to end up with a chronic problem...

I know this is a terrible overlay and the perspectives are off, but it looks as though maybe it has something to do with the nose height?
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5060/5456996699_cd5f757fcc_z.jpg

If it really is the "worst thing ever," why don't you go and get a professional fit from a bike shop. Knee pain can come from a saddle being off by a few millimeters/degrees in the fore/aft, height, or angle.

When I try to brake a lot with my legs opposed to using my brakes, I get really bad pains in my knees the next day, and its very similar to what you are describing.

If you must keep riding, maybe try switching over to a freewheel and throw some brakes on? I'm sure that would take a lot of stress off your knee.

Yeah. Nothing wrong with coasting. Heck I think it's what make bicycles so great for lazy people like me. Push hard when I want to. Coast and enjoy the scenery when I'm tired.

Also it looks like you saddle angle is a bit off too, it looks the nose is a bit higher than before.

Yeah, this jumped out at me, too.

Plus one on the slight saddle adjustment.

Small adjustments can have major impacts. Say extend your arms in front of you right now in a riding position. Now relax your shoulders a bit. Much more natural and comfortable.

Throw a brake on there for a while, use it as a crutch until you feel like you're healed. No need to put excessive wear and tear on your engine if you're feeling pain. Bulk up on Omega 3's. They're good for joints and cartilage.

My gear ratio is 47/17.. I can't go any lower. I hardly ever skid (mostly use strength to slow down) but when I do, I have my right leg forward and my left knee is having the problems. I don't think the saddle being completely level would cause this, although I did level it out just now when sliding it forward a bit.

Also, I don't see how a brake would help me since the pain is constant, not just when stopping.
I contacted an orthopedic office and holy crap. I'm talking thousands of dollars here. This kinda thing right here makes me very jealous of Canadians. Well, this and a million other things.

Gonna ride in a bit and see what happens :/

It wouldn't hurt to wear a knee brace, right?

OK, man. You need to seriously sit down and have a conversation with yourself. Ask, "Is riding a fixed gear required for my job?"

The whole "zen" and "fixed gears are easier to care for" are terrible reasons when compared to serious knee damage. There isn't much zen to walking with a limp.

A quality used road bike will probably do the job just as well and you will have an easier time doing it. Basically, your job will become easier for the same pay.




Oh, and your saddle is probably too far backwards. You should look into getting some clipless pedals or use proper slotted cleats to exercise more control over your foot and knee during your pedal stroke. The shoes you choose to wear (and even the thickness of the insoles) on a particular day may change your effective saddle height. I've had two pairs of cycling shoes that require a 1cm change in saddle height depending on which pair I use.

Also, using clipless pedals (or slotted cleats), you can pull up on the back stroke which will lighten the load on the front of the pedal stroke so you aren't mashing so much all the time. Pedal circles instead of mashing potatoes.

Your adjustment seems to have changed when you changed posts and that might cause a little soreness... spending a day doing point to points with no brake could have stressed your knee and now it is telling you to f off and stop the abuse.

Am thinking that it's a strain / overuse issue and this is why I ran a brake when I was a courier... less repetitive stress for my already sketchy knees.

And knee pain is not the worst pain ever... I have lived with that for most of my life and riding has always made that better.

My gear ratio is 47/17.. I can't go any lower. I hardly ever skid (mostly use strength to slow down) but when I do, I have my right leg forward and my left knee is having the problems. I don't think the saddle being completely level would cause this, although I did level it out just now when sliding it forward a bit.

Also, I don't see how a brake would help me since the pain is constant, not just when stopping.
I contacted an orthopedic office and holy crap. I'm talking thousands of dollars here. This kinda thing right here makes me very jealous of Canadians. Well, this and a million other things.

Gonna ride in a bit and see what happens :/

It wouldn't hurt to wear a knee brace, right?


And...

Don't envy those with health care. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Now that you are injured, you have to rest and recover. I'm not sure if riding the bike (even in with the proper bike fit) will fix the pain.

A knee brace is designed to control the range of motion of the leg...so are clipless pedals. I use zero float cleats.

A fixed gear bike is not the best bike for the job. Sorry, but it just isn't. It's one thing to ride them for fun...or to be cool. It's another thing if it's a tool for your job. Your employer, dispatcher, nor your customers care if you deliver packages on a FG or not, just as long as it gets there. You could ride hoverboard for all they care.

http://www.cracked.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/hoverboard.jpg

If his knee hurts with a fixed gear bike, it will hurt with a geared bike.

The new seatpost has only a tiny bit more setback than the first, and he has his saddle as far forward as it will go.

A level saddle should look slightly nose up.

He hurt his knee at work, probably lifting and twisting at the same time, or squatting too low.

Bicycle orthotics, zero float cleats, a real bike-fitting (not by a bike shop), and plenty of fixed gear riding will heal his knee.

And some physical therapy.

Arthroscopic surgery can help, but it costs a lot.

Did you document the work-related knee injury for workman's comp?


A week ago I worked a 7 hour shift and deliveries were super busy. I basically sprinted for 7 hours straight. I started noticing knee discomfort 3/4 of the way into my shift. The next morning, I wake up and start riding to the coffee shop and my left knee was killing me.

You did it at work.

Don't blame the bike.

Duh... I am in PDX now and if you wanna hook up and go over some basic fitting send me a pm.

It is what I do for a living but while I am here I will work for bacon maple Voodoo donuts and Stumptown coffee... :lol:

Am guessing you have the weekend off too so mebbe we can take a look at things and would advise that you ride as little as possible over the weekend.

Thanks for all the input guys. Over the past week I've been riding to and from work, only a couple miles a day at commuter speed and having others take deliveries for me. Today I moved my saddle forward very slightly. I noticed on the way to work there was no knee pain whatsoever. I sprinted a couple deliveries just to see how my knee is doing and bam, no pain whatsoever but it feels pretty weak. I'm still going to take it easy and keep icing just to make sure it heals up properly. I'm pretty sure its just an overuse issue that I'm experiencing, although my fit is probably off and getting a professional fit would be wise.

All the clipless talk got me pretty interested in trying that out. I'm on my feet quite a bit in between riding, would that be a problem?

OK, man. You need to seriously sit down and have a conversation with yourself. Ask, "Is riding a fixed gear required for my job?"

The whole "zen" and "fixed gears are easier to care for" are terrible reasons when compared to serious knee damage. There isn't much zen to walking with a limp.

A quality used road bike will probably do the job just as well and you will have an easier time doing it. Basically, your job will become easier for the same pay.




Oh, and your saddle is probably too far backwards. You should look into getting some clipless pedals or use proper slotted cleats to exercise more control over your foot and knee during your pedal stroke. The shoes you choose to wear (and even the thickness of the insoles) on a particular day may change your effective saddle height. I've had two pairs of cycling shoes that require a 1cm change in saddle height depending on which pair I use.

Also, using clipless pedals (or slotted cleats), you can pull up on the back stroke which will lighten the load on the front of the pedal stroke so you aren't mashing so much all the time. Pedal circles instead of mashing potatoes.


And...

Don't envy those with health care. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Now that you are injured, you have to rest and recover. I'm not sure if riding the bike (even in with the proper bike fit) will fix the pain.

A knee brace is designed to control the range of motion of the leg...so are clipless pedals. I use zero float cleats.

A fixed gear bike is not the best bike for the job. Sorry, but it just isn't. It's one thing to ride them for fun...or to be cool. It's another thing if it's a tool for your job. Your employer, dispatcher, nor your customers care if you deliver packages on a FG or not, just as long as it gets there. You could ride hoverboard for all they care.

http://www.cracked.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/hoverboard.jpg

THANK you Carleton!



You did it at work.

Don't blame the bike.

it is only a workmans comp issue if they issued him the bike... I am not trying to be a dick but if he is sprinting around on a miss fitted fixed gear for work its on him as far as his injury goes... Messengers/ bike delivery people do use geared bikes, hell some use mountain bikes for the advantages given, so he is not locked into that bike... Alls I am saying is dont miss lead him as far as comp goes and as far as his injury goes. often times you may never know how bad it really is. i have had injuries that i would have not known i had, had i not gone to see a doctor... not everyone feels pain or responds to injuries the same...

Thanks for all the input guys. Over the past week I've been riding to and from work, only a couple miles a day at commuter speed and having others take deliveries for me. Today I moved my saddle forward very slightly. I noticed on the way to work there was no knee pain whatsoever. I sprinted a couple deliveries just to see how my knee is doing and bam, no pain whatsoever but it feels pretty weak. I'm still going to take it easy and keep icing just to make sure it heals up properly. I'm pretty sure its just an overuse issue that I'm experiencing, although my fit is probably off and getting a professional fit would be wise.

All the clipless talk got me pretty interested in trying that out. I'm on my feet quite a bit in between riding, would that be a problem?

Good to hear that the knee is feeling better... good that you can pass off a little work to give yourself a little rest too and having a good crew is important.

You can get clipless shoes that are comfortable for walking... my main shoes are some spd touring shoes that look more like runners.

If his knee hurts with a fixed gear bike, it will hurt with a geared bike.


You did it at work.

Don't blame the bike.
That's not true at all. A geared bike is much, much easier on your knees. Riding a fixed gear and grinding up hills or riding at a low cadence is about as hard on your knees as you can get. That's the whole point of having a geared bike, to maintain a proper cadence. There is a reason that just about every trainer/coach will advise you not to grind big gears, and it's for a reason.

Now, depending on where the knee pain is, there is a good chance that it's also caused by muscle imbalances in the hips and quads too, or tightness in the hamstrings and IT bands. Runners and cyclists are prone to weak outer glutes, and quad/VMO(teardrop muscle on the inside of your knee) imbalances, which causes your knees to track wrong and bam, knee pain.

...I haven't spend alot of time w/ othro surgons and physical therapists due to knee issues or anything like that.

I'm thinking about switching my gear ratio from 47/17 to 47/19. Dude at the bike shop pretty much guaranteed me this will solve the problem.

get a front brake.

This is the reply I got when I asked a similar question:


Fixed gear bikes don't cause knee issues: they correct them.

You need to get your bike to fit you, and then you need to learn to spin.

If you have access to a spin stand, meaning, a stand that holds your rear axle so that you can sit on your bike and spin indoors, it will greatly facilitate fitting your bike.

Borrow or rent one if you must, and get a friend to help.

First, get clipless pedals and shoes.

Center the cleat between your big and index toes on the ball of your foot.

If you walk with your toes out, angle the cleats slightly inward; if you walk with your feet straight, align your cleats with the long axis of the shoe; and, if you walk with your toes in, angle the cleats outward, slightly.

With the help of your friend, adjust your saddle height so that with your pedal in the full down position and your heel fully lowered, you still have a 15 degree bend (not much of a bend, but visible) in your knee.

When your heel feels fully lowered to you, your friend will describe your foot as level.

Again with the help of your friend, adjust your saddle fore and aft.

With the pedals level, your friend should drop a line from the hollow just to the inside of the knee cap (sitting in a chair with your knee straight, stick your finger in the "dimple" on the inner side of your knee cap and then bend your knee with the finger in place...), and the line should fall vertically through the middle of your pedal spindle.

If the line falls in front of the spindle, move your saddle back; and, if the line falls behind the spindle, move your saddle forwards.

Now, put a straight edge across the top of your saddle, from butt of the saddle to the toe of the saddle, and adjust the tilt so that you have a perfectly level saddle (it might look slightly nose up).

Readjust your saddle for height and fore and aft position.

As for handlebar position, on the street, you should ride in a more erect position than on the track or in a race.

You should have an erect enough torso so that, if necessary, you could lift your hands off the handlebars while pedaling, without any special effort.

This usually looks like the seat has just a tiny bit more height than the handlebars.

Go to your local bike shop and ask if you can borrow several different length stems.

Try them all, short and long, until, with the handlebars slightly lower than your saddle, you feel your hands get light on the handlebars; and then buy that stem from your bike shop.

Find the stem length and handlebar height the gives you the least weight on your hands.

When riding, your body angle will look like that of a road racer riding on the hoods.

This will give you a much more effective torso to hip angle, and will transfer more of the work towards your hips and buttocks and away from your knees.

I already had clipless shoes etc. but I followed the saddle adjustment advice and the pain went away.

Daven

I'm thinking about switching my gear ratio from 47/17 to 47/19. Dude at the bike shop pretty much guaranteed me this will solve the problem.


not necessarily... you may have done more damage than you can know... when it comes to joints and tendons i dont **** around... i love riding and thus my legs and im not gonna trust them to a bike shop or a forum... we can give advice till we are blue in the face but non of us are doctors (and even then, they can be wrong too)... just keep that in mind...

This is the reply I got when I asked a similar question:



I already had clipless shoes etc. but I followed the saddle adjustment advice and the pain went away.

Daven

Ken Cox gave you some good advice. Doublespaced too!!!

Umm so you have cut the ends of your bullhorns, OR there is another bike here JUST like yours with the same bars only chopped 2" shorter.

My bars aren't cut.

Ok then you have a doppleganger bike in town.
I saw it across from Pearl Bakery last week

That would be my friend, Daniel!