Classic & Vintage - Slipping axle & horizontal dropouts

Slipping axle & horizontal dropouts

I have a recurring problem with a slipping axle on my 1978 Trek 400. The wheelset and axle are new 130mm Dura Ace. I’ve used both Shimano Ultegra and Velo Orange quick release bolts. Both slip. The rear drop-out was professionally cold set to 130mm, using the correct Park tool to set the rear triangle.

The axle slips forward as I accelerate from a stop. Since I’m clipped-in, I fall each time. Not only is falling an issue, I’m concerned I’ll fall among vehicles that are within striking distance.

Any suggestions? I’m ready to buy a frame with vertical drop-outs.

Are the Ultegra and V/O quick releases internal or external cam?

You want internal cam. External will be an issue.

Edit: I see the V/O at least are internal, so this may not be the issue.

Next I'm guessing the lock nuts on the new DA hubs are smooth - which are fine for and made to work with vertical drops. If so, you may want to try swapping out the locknuts.

Are the Ultegra and V/O quick releases internal or external cam?

You want internal cam. External will be an issue.

Both are internal.

Next I'm guessing the lock nuts on the new DA hubs are smooth - which are fine for and made to work with vertical drops. If so, you may want to try swapping out the locknuts.

Hi & thank you for talking me through this.

I removed the wheel, the locknuts have four or five dozen radial grooves.

Can I just add a star washer from the hardware store?

Michael

Are the QR aluminum? I hear they don't get as good a bite as steel, but I've never used.

Is axle to long, sticking beyond the dropouts?

Is axle to long, sticking beyond the dropouts?

Excellent question, but I doubt the OP has overlooked this. Ex Pres' suggestion about a locknut that will give more bite is a good one.

Is axle to long, sticking beyond the dropouts?

I double checked this and the axle is not wider than the drop-outs. The quick-release is also grooved on both sides. I'm using plenty of tension when setting the quick release.

Sounds like the lock nuts and/or QR bases aren't giving enough bite on the dropout to me too. Had a similar issue on my Serotta with a fairly recent made Campy Daytona hub. Had to really tighten down the QR, but haven't had any issues since. Seems like you're having a more serious version of the same basic problem but simply tightening down the QR isn't solving it. Maybe scuff the lock nuts mating surfaces with some rough sand paper? Or try to find some lock nuts with better bite.

Try tightening the QR down a little more. I'm as big boy and i like to ride hard, and I always worry I'm going to break something when I tighten down my rear QR. I never have, which is good; anything less and the rear wheel moves on me.

Skewers are a lot cheaper than a busted collarbone.

Try tightening the QR down a little more. I'm as big boy and i like to ride hard, and I always worry I'm going to break something when I tighten down my rear QR. I never have, which is good; anything less and the rear wheel moves on me.

Skewers are a lot cheaper than a busted collarbone.

I'll do that. The V/O skewer actually broke at the cam end. It broke after 15 miles of riding, while pulling away from a stop light. Down I went. I had to walk home after that. I have a spare skewer and will bring it with.

Has anyone just added star washers? Anything wrong with that?

Today. I'll ride my modern CX bike. The C&V bike is my rain bike.

I feel your pain, fell and broke a rib last year due to this same problem. I use older skewers with teeth, (not just grooves) to bite into the dropout material. Definitly make sure the dropout roughed up a bit and note that the texture of the outer axel locknut is responsible for providing 1/2 of the grip so make sure they also have an aggressive pattern too. I always need to tighten my skewer a bit more than I am comfortable with, on the ragged edge of stripping the threads on the right side locknut or breaking the skewer in order to get enough grip to keep the axel from slipping.

This is really interesting and would love to know what the resolution is.

I've had the same problem with 2 of my bikes. Both had alum/aloy Qr's. I replaced them with steel Qr's from my parts box and have yet to have a problem. It's been 3 year on one bike and 1 1/2 on the other. Seems the light weight Qr. just don't have the bite I guess.

I have the same problem with some Deore QR's on my Stumpjumper. I've not ridden it much recently but I'll be looking into some solutions as well.

When OP says "professionally cold set", one assumes that the dropouts were also adjusted using the Campy or Park dropout adjustment tool. If the dropouts are not square, it may be hard to get enough tension on the skewer to keep the axle in place.

When OP says "professionally cold set", one assumes that the dropouts were also adjusted using the Campy or Park dropout adjustment tool. If the dropouts are not square, it may be hard to get enough tension on the skewer to keep the axle in place.


The rear drop-out was professionally cold set to 130mm, using the correct Park tool to set the rear triangle.

The rear triangle is square.

The rear triangle is square.
That's one side of the story.

The rear triangle is square.

The rear triangle may be square, but dropouts also need to be square. I have seen shops cold set the frame, but not properly align the dropouts or the derailleur hanger. Each of these is a separate step, using different tools. Park makes tools for each of these three steps.

There is no way it should be slipping. If it is, you are not generating enough friction.

1. Are the dropout faces and all the lock nuts clean and dry (free from any/all lubricants)? If not, you may not be able to get enough friction to hold the axle in place. Often parts have preservatives/rust preventatives on them. Degrease them and then give it another try.

2. Is there loose paint on the drop outs interfering with a good bite?


If the QR spindles are aluminum, replace them with good quality (hardened) steel.

[QUOTE=Has anyone just added star washers? Anything wrong with that?[/QUOTE]

I had the slipping axle problem on a 1988 Campy Chorus rear hub. It didn't matter how hard I tightened the quick release, I would get slow slippage if I stood on pedals or climbed steep hills. When I looked in greater detail, it turned out I was missing a good serrated friction surface on just one of the four contact points between quick release skewer, frame dropout and hub locknuts. (The previous owner had installed the drive side campy locknut in reverse, which made it easier to get to with a cone wrench. However reversing the locknut meant the serrated surface was facing in instead of out. The slipping problem went away as soon as I flipped the locknut and restored a good bite to the inner side of the rear frame dropout). It sounds like the serrations on your Dura Ace locknuts are already facing out towards the dropouts. However, adding a thin star washer may still increase the friction enough to solve the problem, and seems like a simple, cheap, worthwhile thing to try.

I had the slipping axle problem on a 1988 Campy Chorus rear hub. It didn't matter how hard I tightened the quick release, I would get slow slippage if I stood on pedals or climbed steep hills. When I looked in greater detail, it turned out I was missing a good serrated friction surface on just one of the four contact points between quick release skewer, frame dropout and hub locknuts. (The previous owner had installed the drive side campy locknut in reverse, which made it easier to get to with a cone wrench. However reversing the locknut meant the serrated surface was facing in instead of out. The slipping problem went away as soon as I flipped the locknut and restored a good bite to the inner side of the rear frame dropout). It sounds like the serrations on your Dura Ace locknuts are already facing out towards the dropouts. However, adding a thin star washer may still increase the friction enough to solve the problem, and seems like a simple, cheap, worthwhile thing to try.

I'm going to add a small star washer this week. I'll try one between the drive side skewer nut and the drop-out first. The drive side gets all the torque and placing the washer on the outside of the drop-out will not change the position of the axle in any way.

While the Velo Orange skewer is steel, the modern Dura Ace hub is all alloy and was never engineered for horizontal drop-outs. I do think it's the limitation of alloy parts not biting into the drop-outs that is causing the problem as several posters suggested.

Michael

I do think it's the limitation of alloy parts not biting into the drop-outs that is causing the problem as several posters suggested.
I haven't read all this thread carefully so I apologize if this has been covered. But why do you have alloy in contact with the dropouts? There could be alloy spacers on the axle, but are not the outer screwed=on locking rings steel?

I had a similar problem with an old Fuji that I used to pull a cargo trailer. The rear wheel kept slipping (no adjustment screws on that el cheapo model) so I over tightened the skewer until it snapped. Replaced with some nice FSA jobbies that held up well but the wheel still slipped. Now, here's the real important point: while the axle would slide forward on the drive side, it would also slip to the rear on the non-drive side. Of course, this would cause the whole wheel to twist enough so that the tire would rub against the left side stays and stop me cold. Not fun when navigating a dangerous highway intersection, it goes without saying.

The solution came to me finally when I realized that the same claw adapter sold for the rear derailleur could be reversed to mount inside the left rear dropout, preventing the axle from being able to slide backwards on that side. One buck from bikepartsusa.com and now the wheel stays straight even under the heaviest loads.

Hope this helps...

I'm going to add a small star washer this week. I'll try one between the drive side skewer nut and the drop-out first. The drive side gets all the torque and placing the washer on the outside of the drop-out will not change the position of the axle in any way.

While the Velo Orange skewer is steel, the modern Dura Ace hub is all alloy and was never engineered for horizontal drop-outs. I do think it's the limitation of alloy parts not biting into the drop-outs that is causing the problem as several posters suggested.

Michael

Michael,

Your argument rings hollow with me because it argues assumptions and conventional wisdom. Consider this, the fact is your axle is slipping and they were not intended to do so, furthermore, most do not slip. There is something wrong with your set up. Look further into that hypothesis. Find out what is wrong with your set up.

The proper solution will be dependant upon the cause. Adding a star washer is and should be entirely unnecessary. Something esle is wrong. Find out what it is.

I like to use locking skewers on the rear wheel for this reason. It does not take but a few seconds more to get the wheel on and off.

Jake

Now, here's the real important point: while the axle would slide forward on the drive side, it would also slip to the rear on the non-drive side. Of course, this would cause the whole wheel to twist enough so that the tire would rub against the left side stays and stop me cold. Not fun when navigating a dangerous highway intersection, it goes without saying.

The solution came to me finally when I realized that the same claw adapter sold for the rear derailleur could be reversed to mount inside the left rear dropout, preventing the axle from being able to slide backwards on that side. One buck from bikepartsusa.com and now the wheel stays straight even under the heaviest loads.

Hope this helps...

The idea has merit. An adjustment screw stops the non-drive side from slipping back on my bike.

If the star washer doesn't hold the axle, I could fasten a flat washer to the drive side. I would have to disassemble the skewer to mount the wheel, but that is not a big issue.

Michael,

Your argument rings hollow with me because it argues assumptions and conventional wisdom. Consider this, the fact is your axle is slipping and they were not intended to do so, furthermore, most do not slip. There is something wrong with your set up. Look further into that hypothesis. Find out what is wrong with your set up.

The proper solution will be dependant upon the cause. Adding a star washer is and should be entirely unnecessary. Something esle is wrong. Find out what it is.

Please go away.

I like to use locking skewers on the rear wheel for this reason. It does not take but a few seconds more to get the wheel on and off.

Jake

Michael,
I have a rear VO anti-theft skewer and special allen key if you think it might be the solution.

Also I noticed that modern QR skewers have a smaller area of contact than do their vintage/retro counterparts. Of course skewers designed for vertical dropouts don't need the same grip as do those for horizontals, because of course it is impossible for the axle to shift back and forth. So make sure the caps are max size on those horizontal drops!

Also I noticed that modern QR skewers have a smaller area of contact than do their vintage/retro counterparts. Of course skewers designed for vertical dropouts don't need the same grip as do those for horizontals, because of course it is impossible for the axle to shift back and forth. So make sure the caps are max size on those horizontal drops!


Michael,
I have a rear VO anti-theft skewer and special allen key if you think it might be the solution.

The modern skewers, along with the modern hub, are key to the slipping. The Dura Ace hub was designed to win the TDF on a bike with vertical drop-outs. Now I know. My riding style might be at fault too. I do tend to get out of the saddle and put all my 210 lbs on each leg while cranking from a stop. The chain is pulling the axle forward on the drive side under this load.

I'll consider the anti-theft skewers. They look like they would lock down well.

Thank you.

I have this problem on my Super Course. After examining and thinking it over I concluded the problem was non-serated lock nuts and chromed dropouts. Thanks for posting this, it reminded me I need to fix that.

Have had the same problem on a 80s FUJI and a 70s PUCH both of which I replaced the wheels on on - I did not try to use the old skewers but did eventually end up using a modified chain tightener - At the time I was riding at 284# now that I am down to 235# I don't use them anymore - Also as Mills said keep looking for the problem, I am very interested in its solution - Using a star washer or lock washer may work - My sons 72 UO-8 was slipping on the left side and I still think it is because the axle is to long on the new wheel set but when we measure it measures perfect - We solved his slipping with placing a very large washer on it (see attached photos) and now there is no slipping - GOOD LUCK...


...started using a modified chain tightener on the drive side of my FUJI - Its not pretty...

185904Little "Do-Dad" for positioning 185905Chain tensioner to prevent slip forward on FUJI

Hey - Don't be to reluctant in using a modified chain tensioner in the mean time - We are getting close to some real good riding weather and you don't want to miss out...

190544 190545

There they are!
thanks!

I concur that only a lightweight rider can get away with using modern low-weight, low-tension, low-friction skewers and axle end nut systems in horizontal dropouts. Everyone else needs to use more traditional parts or one of the retrofit tricks mentioned above. As a midsized cyclist who uses old parts and old frames, I have only rarely experienced wheel slippage, and it was generally attributable to mechanic error on my part.

I was going to suggest some vintage Campagnolo skewers, but I never really thought about the hub's contact points contributing to this problem. I used to have this problem with modern ultegra hubs on my vintage frame, but my solution was a new frame so that doesn't help much. I could get it to stick, but usually the first ride after a wheel removal involved a couple of stops to straighten the rear wheel. My skewers were very tight.

this same thing happened to me on a touring trip from brooklyn to philly. all of a sudden my miyata 610 rear wheel would pull forward almost out of the rear dropouts. happened a few times. scary. the on the fly fix i found was odd. i originally had the QR skewer handle pointed rearward to stay out of the way of panniers and straps etc. i tried it facing forward and success. absolutely makes no sense to me. i haven't investigated why this worked but its stayed in that position for over a year with several longer touring trip and no problems.

Please go away.

Sure, no problem. I'm just trying to help. I'm gone.

I know this has been mentioned but may be worth one more check. When I was having the same problem on a bike, turns out I had removed both cones from my axle when servicing the hub. When reassembling I did not get the axle perfectly centered and the QR could not lock down on the dropout because the axle was out too far out on one side (didn't look like it either, doesn't take much).

One adjustment I’m going to try is to let the axle move as far back as possible in the drop-out before clamping the quick-release shut. I'm backing out the adjustment screw to achieve this.

Currently the axle is positioned in the EO location, about mid-point on the drop-out. The lock-nut on the hub and the quick-release only clamp on the upper and lower portion of the drop-out. Only two small crescent shaped sections are holding the axle in place on each side, one at 1 O’clock and another at 7 O’clock.

By moving the axle back, the lock-nut on the hub and the quick-release will grip a larger “C” shaped area, from 5 O’clock to 3 O’clock. This might make a difference.

I’m also going to test ride the bike up a grassy hill, cranking hard at low speed as I climb. Better to fail there than on the streets.

I just wanted to mention that I ruined a good rear wheel trying to figure out my own slippage problem - On an power up uphill stroke my right side slipped, jammed the wheel left, and that was it, ruined wheel - Bad - Thats when I decided to give in and go to the chain tensioners - Please just be carefull - Also I have seen more than a few guys using modified tensioners on thier fixy bikes - There must be something to it...

Anyone have a lead on large diameter lock washers. I recon the ID needs to be about 6mm and the OD needs to be 20mm with either a star pattern or hardened radial serrations (preferred).


Tom

I have this problem on my Super Course. After examining and thinking it over I concluded the problem was non-serated lock nuts and chromed dropouts.

It happened on my Super Course as well with a new wheelset. I figured out that the powdercoat I'd had applied to the frame was more slippery, and the bite on the newer skewers was not as deep and caused the issue. I went to older skewers with a knurled steel face and haven't had a problem since.

On the supercoursi, was this in a config with a derailleur hanger or SS?

I have this problem on my Super Course.

I had the same problem with my Super Course. I fixed it with a solid, bolt-on Campy track axle in my Tippo hubs. No problem since. The 15mm stubby wrench in my seat bag is as good as a quick release.

I pulled the old skewers out of my original wheels (84' model) and swapped it out with the new ones that came with my new wheels and it fixed the problem. I was a little concerned about the length of the old skewer, but I wanted to try it to see if it would work. It was plenty long enough and works great!

Anyone have a lead on large diameter lock washers. I recon the ID needs to be about 6mm and the OD needs to be 20mm with either a star pattern or hardened radial serrations (preferred).
Tom

I looks like a 1/4" Internal-External Star Lock Washers would fit, Open and scroll down here: http://www.almabolt.com/pages/catalog/washers/star.htm

I'm not ready to use this solution yet. I've been shopping on-line for skewers, and it looks like Shimano makes the best item for this application. I already have more than one spare rear Shimano skewer, and I do trust these more than the item that broke. I may ask my network of C&V owners if they have some minty Shimano 600 skewers around.

Any suggestions on what C&V skewer to use?

I'll do that. The V/O skewer actually broke at the cam end. It broke after 15 miles of riding, while pulling away from a stop light. Down I went. I had to walk home after that. I have a spare skewer and will bring it with.

Has anyone just added star washers? Anything wrong with that?

Today. I'll ride my modern CX bike. The C&V bike is my rain bike.

Barrettscv, you can try some star washers, it can't hurt. I suspect the pressure of the QR will smash them flat. If the QR ends are bottoming on the axle ends, the star washers will add a bit of thickness that might forestall any issues due to that possibility.

The only thing I can think of that keeps the QR from bringing adequate pressure to the dropout faces is if the QR ends (with and without lever) are bottoming on the axle end, or via the conical spring are doing so. You might try it with the conical springs removed and see if that makes a difference.

If you are getting enough pressure, sliding can occur if the QR ends and the locknuts are not biting into the dropout. I don't know what the Dura Ace solution was but for Campy it's a knurled clamping face on the QR faces and the locknuts. I've used lot's of Campy over the years and not had one slip when set up right.

What else can happen? Well, inadequate QR pressure, either due to a worn-out cam mechanism at the lever, or just not cranking it down. Personally, if I don't need to use the seatstay or chainstay as a brace that lets me get enough leverage to close the lever, I don't think it's tight enough. I have never broken a QR (now watch, tomorrow two will break spontaneously ... ).

I can't really think of anything else to check into.

I was going to suggest some vintage Campagnolo skewers, but I never really thought about the hub's contact points contributing to this problem. I used to have this problem with modern ultegra hubs on my vintage frame, but my solution was a new frame so that doesn't help much. I could get it to stick, but usually the first ride after a wheel removal involved a couple of stops to straighten the rear wheel. My skewers were very tight.

I've found that the stamped dropouts on the cheaper vintage frames, like the original Super Course, Grand Prix, and UO-8, are narrower than the forged Campy, Zeus, Huret, and Simplex dropouts on the better, usually double-butted frames. Unless I'm careful with axle length, selection of QR for a "hollowed out" look inside the clamping face, and proper shape/fit of the centering springs, I can end up with wheels that are not clamped. I'd have never dreamed to anticipate the problem until I had to solve it for my UO-8 frame.

Any suggestions on what C&V skewer to use?

I'll admit I've only used old Campagnolo hubs with old Campagnolo quick releases, but I've never had a wheel slip as long as everything else is correct...