Bicycle Mechanics - Why aren`t tungsten carbide rims more popular?

I`m seriously looking at matching a SON generator with a pair of Rigida rims with tungsten carbide braking surfaces and am surprised that Peter White doesn`t offer it as an option.

Also plan on using a set to build a `retro` mtb with rim brakes. Lots lighter and simpler than disks. And no wear issues.

So I was surprised that they`re apparently also not distributed in Canada and that I`l have to import them.They`d be about the same price as Mavic A719 rims and more durable (baring accidents).

So is anyone using these and is less than happy with them?

What wheels have that? link?

What wheels have that? link?

Rigida offers a wide variety of rims and some models used to be original equipment on some new bikes.

Several of their rims, notably the Andra series and Grizzly are available with the tungsten carbide braking surfaces as an option. Apparently they have a process that accellerates the tungsten carbide particals to several times the speed of sound and literally blast the particals into the braking surface so that it becomes one intigral structure that can`t chip or flake off.

What I`m personally interested in is improved wet braking performance and rim wear being practically eliminated. A SON generator is rated for 50,000 kms so to me it would make sense to look at rims that would last more than 10,000 in adverse conditions.

Likewise, with the new LiFeO4 in electric bikes being able to accept a charge over 1,500 tomes - we`re also looking at the opportunity to get over 75,000 kms out of a battery. And since most e-bikes still use rim brakes - looks like tungsten carbide rims would be a good bet there too.

I like working on bikes, but had to do any maintenaince any more often than necessary if there` an alternative. And this is one easy, inexpensive way to seriously upgrade a bike. My opinion anyway.

Most people don't ride fast in the rain. Kool Stop red pads have ample stopping power when wet, and only cost $5/pair. Unless you ride in the rain for more than 2000 miles/year at high speed, there is little benefit in spending big bucks for these esoteric rims.

Tungsten carbide is used in cutting tools for machining metals.
its hard heave alloy additions to steel

Only Mavic offers ceramic brake tracks, here at present,
It's a hot plasma spray on the rolled aluminum rim.
, and just in 2 products a narrow 559 rim and
an open pro version. better than $100 each
Rigida AFAIK, has no US wholesaler so you have to buy retail in Euro zone dealers ,
and get them shipped over.

In the bicycle trials world, there used to be a company you could send your rims to in order to have them coated for extra traction/wear resistance. It was called Plazmatic coating, but I think the company has disappeared.

Most people don't ride fast in the rain. Kool Stop red pads have ample stopping power when wet, and only cost $5/pair. Unless you ride in the rain for more than 2000 miles/year at high speed, there is little benefit in spending big bucks for these esoteric rims.

In fact most people actually prefer to stay home when it rains or take the car.

Can`t speak for anyone else but can spell out my own interest so maybe it`ll make more sense.

I have an electric bike at the moment. A Velec B2 with rim brakes and a rim profile very similar to the Rigida Andra 30 model. The bike has a steel frame with oversized tubing and a front suspension fork so when combined with the battery, brings the weight of the bike up to about 55lbs. The bike will cruise effortlessly at 30kph and the only reason it won`t go faster is because there is an electronic limiter built in to respect the legal requirements here.

So this is a heavier bike than average and it travels at higher speeds than average and since its equipped with fenders - is out in the rain on a regular basis. Lets say its a bit like an electric motorcycle, complete with running lights. The brakes on this machine are a weak point in the rain. There is no option to upgrade to disks as the hub motor isn`t configured for it and there are no bosses on the frame anyway. And eventually when I have to replace the rims - those tungsten carbide goodies look like the way to go.

The other project I have in the works is a `retro` mtb that will essentually be a hybrid for city use anyway. I`ve built and driven some pretty exotic bikes with carbon fibre frames and titanium frames over the past year. They all had disk brakes. Some with 160mm rotors, some with 203mm rotors. Thats IMO a heavy expensive setup that makes a couple hundred dollars for a pair of rims and specialty pads look pretty good to me.

I guess I could get by without the tungsten carbide treatment, but since I`d probably be buying the same rim model anyway, I thought it would make sense to spend a few extra dollars and get the best available because in the overall cost - its probably not a big deal. A SON generator is going to set me back about $500, a Brooks Professional with titanium rails about $300 and Schwalbe tires and tubes another $200.

And I`d like the chance to try them out. Ocassionally I`ve tried some products and decided they`re mostly hype. A few products I liked so much I wouldn`t consider settling for less. And if they do work out as well as their reputation, I`ll be recommending to the president of Velec that he consider offering them as standard equipment on upcoming models. That company already offers the best warranty in the business and is marketing what is argably the best e-bike available in this country. Maybe a suggestion can get the consumer even more for their money.

So later in the year I expect to be able to give some first hand reports on weither its money spent unnecessarily or weither I`d do it again in a flash.

It's a ceramic oxide , not tungsten carbide .*. Better off looking into Disc Brake on the front wheel.
rather than abrasive treated aluminum rims. for all weather use.

Of course with a second motor in the front wheel you can recharge the battery a little with each braking,
with a regenerative mode , the rear would have a freewheel on the sprocket
so regen modes are not offered on the back but are on the front.

*I stand corrected Rigida rims dont have US distributor ship,
so apparently you have to do a retail buy and pay trans atlantic shipping.

...I have an electric bike at the moment...weight of the bike up to about 55lbs....So this is a heavier bike than average and it travels at higher speeds than average and since its equipped with fenders - is out in the rain on a regular basis. Lets say its a bit like an electric motorcycle....

Running under these conditions with rim brakes isn't a very good idea, discs are ideal. You claim to crave the simplicty and light weight of rim brakes, yet your "bike" is far from simple or lighweight. Gonna be stupid, you'll need to be tough!

If the question is why more people don't use rims with ceramic brake tracks, I think it boils down to expense and scarcity.

I have a dyno front wheel with a ceramic-coated Mavic rim (a NOS Reflex, predecessor to the Open Pro), built on the same general thought process you're discussing, and honestly the braking isn't much better than a good Shimano R55C3 pad on a regular machined aluminum Open Pro. Will it last longer, yes.

Carbide or oxide rims coupled with a heavy bike and an electric motor seems like a good tool for grinding down brake pads in a hurry.

It's a ceramic oxide , not tungsten carbide .. Better off looking into Disc Brake on the front wheel.
rather than abrasive treated aluminum rims. for all weather use.

Of course with a second motor in the front wheel you can recharge the battery a little with each braking,
with a regenerative mode , the rear would have a freewheel on the sprocket
so regen modes are not offered on the back but are on the front.

Huh? The Bionx (http://www.bionx.ca/en/products/technology/) hub motor replaces the rear hub and offers programmable regenerative braking.

It's a ceramic oxide , not tungsten carbide .. Better off looking into Disc Brake on the front wheel.
rather than abrasive treated aluminum rims. for all weather use.

Of course with a second motor in the front wheel you can recharge the battery a little with each braking,
with a regenerative mode , the rear would have a freewheel on the sprocket
so regen modes are not offered on the back but are on the front.

Hi - appreciate your posts as they are always informative. The CSS option I am referring to is an abbreviation for Carbide Supersonic System and is detailed on the Rigida site. Agree some things can be confusing as its a foreign website and in one place the CSS is incorrectly referred to as a `carbon` supersonic system, but I am unawate of any ceramic options. Do you have a link?

Agreed a disk on the front would be an interesting option but that would involve replacing both the front hub and the fork. If I go for a SON generator I do plan on getting a dick version to at least introduce that option.

Carbide or oxide rims coupled with a heavy bike and an electric motor seems like a good tool for grinding down brake pads in a hurry.

I certainly agree a heavy bike and driving in wet weather is a good recipie for grinding down both conventional rims AND conventional brake pads. Reviews posted by riders using ceramic rims and brake pads specifically designed for them consistantly report better wet breaking performance and less wear on both rim and pads. The few reviews I`ve found on these rims indicate the same thing.

I`d like to confirm that firsthand.

Running under these conditions with rim brakes isn't a very good idea, discs are ideal. You claim to crave the simplicty and light weight of rim brakes, yet your "bike" is far from simple or lighweight. Gonna be stupid, you'll need to be tough!

At this point the electric bike you`re refering to as `complicated` is completely stock and the brakes are considered satisfactory. I am looking to improve the life expectancy of the rims and perhaps the braking effeciency in wet conditions by simply changing the rims and brake pads.

And you`re suggesting changing the forks, and moving to disk brakes would be a less `complicated` solution? Sounds like a lot more work to me.

Just as a frame of reference I was driving a titanium framed XT equipped mtb bike earlier this year with Hayes Stroker Carbon hydraulic disk brakes and a DT Swiss carbon front fork. Now THAT in my opinion was `complicated` and although the braking performance was excellent it wasn`t unforgetable, and in my opinion not worth the additional hassle over rim brakes. Have also ridden Shimano Hone hydraulic brakes and Shimano XTR hydraulic brakes. The performance isn`t worth the `please steal my bike` stigma that would come with sticking that kind of equipment on what is basically a commuter.

Sometimes when I see stuff like this I can't help but think:

"An answer to a question that has already been answered by a cheaper simpler solution to the same question."

=8-)

27+ years in the business does that to you...

I think the question was ` has anone tried these and had less than a satisfactory experience with them?`

So while I appreciate the general input, the overall recommendation that I should be looking at disk brakes as a better solution has me stumped for a number of reasons.

The place I initially tripped across thes was in the touring forum wher people were discussing touring on tandems. A tandem fully loaded for touring probably has a payload double any electric bike and there the most common and preferred braking system is still rim brakes. And if theres anything that`ll eat up rims and pads it gotta be a loaded tandem so when a few posters mentioned that these rims solved their issues - I got interested.

And although I don`t hate disk brakes, I`m not in any big rush to add another 2 lbs to any bike just because. I`ve used disks. Resin pads have some serious issues with mud and water too - which is why metallic pads are on the market. BUT - they can`t be used with just any rotor and they tend to be noisy.

But what really puzzles me is that if and when I whear out my rims - no one would blink an eye if I went out and spent $100 or so and bought exactly what was already on the bikes before, but the idea of spending another $100 for rims and pads that would be more durable seems to have caused a lot of amusement .

Oh no! Apparently the most acceptable solution is to spend another $1,000 and not only replace the rims, but also the front fork and front hub and install disk brakes!

Sorry - that ones lost on me.

I bought my tandem in 1986, it came stock with a rear Akai drum brake. I've been thinking about changing out the fork to a disc, it's easy to replace a fork, BB7s are no more complicated than cantis or v brakes. For my commuter I paid $60 for a disc fork, $20 for new headset (threaded to threadless), ~$70 for the front hub (includes a generator), spokes are ~$0.50 each. BB7 brake kit was $60, that's $230 total incduding some items you need no matter which way you go.

It's because they weren't a good idea.

Just to be clear, you have an electric bike and you are planning to put a generator hub on it?
Somehow that doesn't make too much sense to me.

Just to be clear, you have an electric bike and you are planning to put a generator hub on it?
Somehow that doesn't make too much sense to me.

Good point. When the electricity goes from the battery to the motor, there are losses due to lines and motor efficiency. When the generator creates electricity there are losses due to friction and efficiency. The result is that the amount of power that can be used from the generator is much less than the amount needed from the battery to produce it. You are much much better off using the battery to directly power a light.

I think the question was ` has anone tried these and had less than a satisfactory experience with them?`

So while I appreciate the general input, the overall recommendation that I should be looking at disk brakes as a better solution has me stumped for a number of reasons.

The place I initially tripped across thes was in the touring forum wher people were discussing touring on tandems. A tandem fully loaded for touring probably has a payload double any electric bike and there the most common and preferred braking system is still rim brakes. And if theres anything that`ll eat up rims and pads it gotta be a loaded tandem so when a few posters mentioned that these rims solved their issues - I got interested.

And although I don`t hate disk brakes, I`m not in any big rush to add another 2 lbs to any bike just because. I`ve used disks. Resin pads have some serious issues with mud and water too - which is why metallic pads are on the market. BUT - they can`t be used with just any rotor and they tend to be noisy.

But what really puzzles me is that if and when I whear out my rims - no one would blink an eye if I went out and spent $100 or so and bought exactly what was already on the bikes before, but the idea of spending another $100 for rims and pads that would be more durable seems to have caused a lot of amusement .

Oh no! Apparently the most acceptable solution is to spend another $1,000 and not only replace the rims, but also the front fork and front hub and install disk brakes!

Sorry - that ones lost on me.

Why would you spend $1000 on a hub, fork and brakes? And you think a $1000 set of brakes is going to add 2 lbs? You are living in a dream world.
You can buy a whole new bike with disk hubs and decent brakes for $500 - good quality cable disk brakes + hub + fork will be less than $300 and add less than 1 lb.

I bought my tandem in 1986, it came stock with a rear Akai drum brake. I've been thinking about changing out the fork to a disc, it's easy to replace a fork, BB7s are no more complicated than cantis or v brakes. For my commuter I paid $60 for a disc fork, $20 for new headset (threaded to threadless), ~$70 for the front hub (includes a generator), spokes are ~$0.50 each. BB7 brake kit was $60, that's $230 total incduding some items you need no matter which way you go.

The whole point to this thread was RIMS and I`m looking at available options when I eventually have to replace what I already have and HAVE TO buy new rims anyway.

The other thing I should point out is that what you pay in the USA is about half what things cost in Canada for most bicycle parts. Thats not logical but its what I have to live with.

And I`l say it again - rather than move to disk brakes - I`d rather just replace the existing rims with exactly the same as what was originally on the bike(s) if thats the only practical option.

A bike like the Op rides. Really it should have disc brakes.

The other thing I should point out is that what you pay in the USA is about half what things cost in Canada for most bicycle parts. Thats not logical but its what I have to live with.

Uh, no?

Learn how to shop online a bit? I learned how to buy stuff online, for less than or at canadian wholesaler cost before I ever worked in a real shop.

At that pricing it's very comparble to what people in the states pay.

It's because they weren't a good idea.

I`ve heard some people say the same thing about bicycles in general.

Hopefully at least a few of your other 1,600 posts were a bit more informative.

Just to be clear, you have an electric bike and you are planning to put a generator hub on it?
Somehow that doesn't make too much sense to me.

Like a lot of people on here I have multiple bikes. This thread started off being an inquiry about the real world advantages of considering tungsten carbide treated rims as a replacement for conventional rims, which eventually wear out and need replacing anyway.

Yeah - one of the projects I have planned is to build a wheelset with a SON generator, but that could be floated between any number of bikes because front wheel axle widths aren`t as different as rear axle widths on the bikes I have.

But this seems to have turned into a discussion of how disk brakes are a better option in spite of the fact that I`ve stated several times I`m not interested.

The only `best options` I`m interested in discussing are RIM options.

But since you brought up that electric bike - there`s no reason a SON generator wouldn`t make sense on that either. Currently the lights available for use with the SON are state of the art but are all designed to work off of 6V. The current output to the existing headlight on the e-bike is 12V and the output from the LED ligh that comes with it sucks big time. So aside from reworwing the wiring in the controller, an indepent self contained front lighting system isn`t or wouldn`t be a waste of time either.

A simple voltage regulator or transformer seems a much better solution than a generator hub to convert 12V to 6V.

These claim 90% efficiency, which will be a whole lot better than your setup: http://www.national.com/pf/LM/LMZ14203.html#Overview

Why would you spend $1000 on a hub, fork and brakes? And you think a $1000 set of brakes is going to add 2 lbs? You are living in a dream world.
You can buy a whole new bike with disk hubs and decent brakes for $500 - good quality cable disk brakes + hub + fork will be less than $300 and add less than 1 lb.

So far what you`ve largely done is take others posters missunderstandings of the objective of the thread and run with them. A waste of your time and absolutely no help to me.

This thread started out being an inquiry into the suitability of tungston carbide rims to replace my existing rims when they wear out. That its turned into a discussion about disk brakes is just an indication that there are a lot of opiniated people on this forum who really don`t care if they understand the question or not.

But you seem to be a special case. I`m really impressed that you think you can get good quality disk brakes and front fork and hub for less than $300 and add less than a lb to the bike. I can get parts wholesale and can`t do that. But maybe we have different views of what `good quality` is. Regardless - the lightest front forks I`ve worked with were DT-Swiss carbons and they weighed a couple lbs all by themselves. And they were considered featherweights.

And you seem to have left out rims anyway. Funny - they`re actually the only thing that needs replacing.

A simple voltage regulator or transformer seems a much better solution than a generator hub to convert 12V to 6V.

These claim 90% efficiency, which will be a whole lot better than your setup: http://www.national.com/pf/LM/LMZ14203.html#Overview

This thread was an inquiry about rims.

I don`t recall ever stating that the SON generator was specifically for that electric bike, and I don`t recall stating that I wanted to convert 12V to 6V. It is in fact a 36V battery anyway.

So how did we get here?

Why? Probably because this is probably a proprietary (read: Expensive) process used only by Rigida, and OEMS are driven primarily by cost. If it's new, that's another factor. Other reasons are that tungsten carbide is the very dickens to machine and it's heavier than a lead wedding band.

This thread was an inquiry about rims.

I don`t recall ever stating that the SON generator was specifically for that electric bike, and I don`t recall stating that I wanted to convert 12V to 6V. It is in fact a 36V battery anyway.

So how did we get here?

welcome to bike forums, derailing is pretty much expected from a bike forum. :innocent:


Well, I think all the reasons why tungsten carbide coated rims aren't popular have already been covered and it all boils down to cost over benefit.

the tungsten carbide rims would last longer, but just how many brake pads will you go through using them?

This part is speculative and partially based on using different compound pads.
A normal rim will wear out quicker and take a longer distance to stop with hard pads, but will last longer and stop shorter with softer pads. Now, assuming you're going to be doing the same amount of braking, the WC rims are extra long lasting with extra abrasiveness, which means the pads would wear out even faster. As a result, you're going to go through more pads in the same amount of time than you would with a regular rim with the same pads.

I'm guessing the rims are still mainly made from aluminum and coated with WC, instead of being a hi-ten or CrMo steel body, meaning they are still subject to the same weakness of denting, buckling and cracking as a normal aluminum rim. So you basically pay for a premium braking surface in a market where ceramic already has a market presence, right in between disc brakes and normal rim brakes. Quality disc brakes are cheap enough, that they give ceramic rims a run for their money and normal rim brakes have quality soft compound pads for not a lot of cost.

Also worth considering are how airplanes, trucks, cars, motorcycles and quality MTBs, which are subject to very adverse weather, are using disc brakes almost exclusively. They even have their own special disc brake alloys, ceramics and compounds to reduce stopping distance even further in any weather and they most certainly don't use WC. Lots of money is spent on making a good product, disc brakes, even better, compared to a rather mediocre and limited market of bicycle rim brakes.

Now, where does that put WC coated rims in terms of market share? Right along side ceramic coated rims, which aren't very popular to begin with. Somebody in the marketing department for a rim manufacturer has most likely done this same assessment and they would have come to the conclusion; that it's not worth it. That's why WC coated rims are not popular.

The only other 'special' alloys I've seen used for rims are niobium and scandium. Their main purpose is to make the rim lighter. There is a decently large market for ultra light aluminum alloy rims, because carbon rims are not as good at stopping, while costing significantly more than the ultra light aluminum rims.

...But this seems to have turned into a discussion of how disk brakes are a better option in spite of the fact that I`ve stated several times I`m not interested.

The only `best options` I`m interested in discussing are RIM options....

You're stupid, why do you waste our valuable time with threads such as this one?

Since we're off topic anyway, I have to ask why certain posters (you know who you are:D) seem to think a title is necessary for every single post. C'mon man, nothing that's said here is that important or significant, it gets annoying to see a freakin' title at the beginning of every one of your responses. Just converse, no titles necessary. Keeps things easy and flowing.

I used ceramic rims for years, sound like a good idea for your build. I'd recommend mavic if they still make them. They weren't cheap, but never had issues with rim wear(obviously), and stopped well in wet conditions. BTW, once you factor in the cables and steel housings, as well as the lighter disc specific rim, my hydros+ rotors weigh about the same as my old XTR V-brake set-up. Good luck!

Since I originally started this thread - thought I'd post an update. Someone asked a similar question across the pond and this is the thread.

http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?action=printpage;topic=3048.0

So based on those experiences for both the rims and pads, I expect to order a couple sets in a 26" size for next season. But I'll probably drop the SON.

The market place is a wonderful thing. It contains the experiences and judgements of millions of riders (thousands of shops and dozens of manufactures. Rims in this case). In the market's collective judgement coated rims don't make enough sense to be "the answer". Not to say that this won't evolve but the problems that a rim suffers from in real day to day use and service won't change much. As an example consider how many rims are replaced due to side wall wear compared to those replaced from dents/warpings. The rim manufacturers have to watch their costs and not produce a product that can't pay it's way. Now that disk brakes are with us the incentive to make better stopping rims is even less.

The interweb is less of a wonderful thing. It allows the lack of face to face feed back to what is said. The dive down the discussion sprial is a common result. Some of the replies to this thread do nothing to move the discussion forwards. Andy.

Rigida definitely uses tungsten carbide, in physical deposit process. It isn't a coating, but particles embedded in the surface of the metal. I think that it isn't more popular partly because it's hard on brake shoes. Also prior experience with ceramic coated rims might have poisoned the well even though this is very different.

I haven't tried these rims, but many years ago experimented with a similar process called Rocklinizing, wherein TC is applied using a spark gap tool. I was pretty happy with the results, which improved wet braking. In the end I wasn't sure if it was worth the effort, and anyway lost the use of the Rocklinizer device. If I ever get the use of it again, I'd probably give it a go for my commuter bike's wheels.

I ride in the PNW and have been using Open Pro Ceramic rims for many years. It's so sad that Mavic quit making them, because they are the Only Thing. Anyone who has one of these rims will cherish it forever, hopefully never damaging it. They last almost forever, unlike regular aluminum rims, which are disposable. Most folks who Really Ride around here go through a pair of aluminum tracked Open Pros in a year. I've had these Ceramics for about 8 years and they're fine. They have two huge advantages: they don't wear, and they brake better in the wet. One runs Kool Stop green pads with them. The first thousand miles or so, one will wear even the green pads fairly rapidly, but after that, the surface smooths out a little and pad wear becomes normal, even though wet braking continues to be superior.

One should note that the CD track on Open Pros being made now is not the same thing as the Ceramic surface.

I have not seen a set of these Rigida rims. I don't know if the braking surface is anything like as good as the surface on the OP Ceramics. It's certainly worth getting a set and mounting them, just in case it is!

Ignore the nay-sayers who have no experience with rim surfaces other than aluminum. The reason that the market doesn't offer rims like this has nothing to do with utility. It's just price. They're more expensive, never mind the fact that they'll outlast 10 aluminum-tracked rims if you ride in the rain. I never saw a pre-built wheel offered with the Carbide rims. It would be a more expensive wheel, and as some on here have noted, who rides in the rain? A definite minority. However, as it is said in the PNW, "There are only two types of riders, the wet and the weak."

Modern corporations periodically go through their product lines and eliminate products with lower sales, which is not really a response to the market place, but rather a response to their investors interested only in short term gain. Less diversity is usually a bad thing.

.... unlike regular aluminum rims, which are disposable..

I understand why someone might want ceramic sided or TC treated rims for better wet braking. But it doesn't make sense to call normal aluminum rims disposable based on brake track wear. Except for mtn biking, rims failing because of brake track wear is almost unheard of.

99.9% (this is hyperbole, it might only be 99.5%) of rim/wheel failure is structural and due to causes having nothing to do with braking. So it isn't reasonable to spend extra for brake track life in expectation of longer rim life.

I understand why someone might want ceramic sided or TC treated rims for better wet braking. But it doesn't make sense to call normal aluminum rims disposable based on brake track wear. Except for mtn biking, rims failing because of brake track wear is almost unheard of.

99.9% (this is hyperbole, it might only be 99.5%) of rim/wheel failure is structural and due to causes having nothing to do with braking. So it isn't reasonable to spend extra for brake track life in expectation of longer rim life.It is to laugh. :lol:

I've worn out many pairs of rims from brake track wear, Koolstop Salmon pads and all. I've never damaged a rim in any other way. The tracks always go long before there's any issue with the spoke bed. Just this Sunday's ride, we had a bike with a front rim that was obviously worn and developed the tell-tale "thump, thump" under mild braking. He let some pressure out of the tire and finished the ride using only the rear brake, just as I've done many times. As I said, people who ride much around here go through a pair of rims in a year. Our tandem only goes through about 1 rim/year, but that's because we don't put the mileage on it that a lot of folks do. In the winter we only take it out on weekends. Before every ride, I clean my rims with alcohol. I normally only ride about 5,000 miles/year, too.

I left 0.1% for non-structural failure, so you might be in that band. Or it's possible that you're replacing rims prematurely, but that doesn't change the fact that the vast bulk of rim failures are for reasons other than brake track wear.

Typical rims are designed to allow track wear of about 1mm. I ride tubular rims with total wall thickness of 0.7mm and typically get over 20,000 miles out of rims before some mishap kills them off (never had a front rim failure of any kind).

Anecdotal evidence aside, I stand by my statement that very few road rims last long enough for brake track wear to be a factor.

A SON generator is going to set me back about $500

I know this is an old thread, and you're in Canada, but $500 for a SON? Are you buying it from a US distributor? Even for us in the USA, the exclusive US importer is a little pricey. I have ordered in the past from a German online retailer, Starbike, and have gotten a better deal than ordering from the US guy. The US importer likes to spread FUD about warranty issues (if you don't buy it thru him). If I have warranty or service issues, I'll try to deal with SON directly, in Germany.

As far as rims, no help from me there. They are a consumable for me, but I'm not in the snowbelt so I'm sure I get better life out of a rim than others.

Is a dyno setup going to be bright enough for you Burton?

Edit: Not sure which SON hub you were looking at, but I'd also consider the Shutter Precision 8 series dynamos. I haven't tried one myself, but I hear good things about them.

Ok Jeff, no Bionx, Ebikes ever seen out here, so IDK.. they do the same out of a wheel?
thinking of a crossover drive to use an IGH for final drive..


Burton , Consider, the option of Sturmey Archer's Combo Drum brake and dynamo front hub .
also takes rim wear out of the picture, and need only a removable band for a reaction strut
to transfer torque of braking.. onto the fork..

I have used a Sturmey Archer drum brake hub for over 20 years on an old MTB..
which seems what your application is..[ I put a plastic cover over the un-used bosses]

In the shop I see rear rims thinned out more often, as dragging the rear to slow seems common.

A powered 2-wheeler that weights 55 lbs and cruises at 30kmh - yes I can see that braking would be an issue; however in my mind this vehicle isn't a 'bicycle' and this isn't a bike mechanics question. It belongs on an electric - or moped - forum.

I left 0.1% for non-structural failure, so you might be in that band. Or it's possible that you're replacing rims prematurely, but that doesn't change the fact that the vast bulk of rim failures are for reasons other than brake track wear.

Typical rims are designed to allow track wear of about 1mm. I ride tubular rims with total wall thickness of 0.7mm and typically get over 20,000 miles out of rims before some mishap kills them off (never had a front rim failure of any kind).
Your experience is certainly different than mine. Almost all of my rim failures have been due to wear of the brake track and that's always been of the front rim since I use the front brake much more than the rear. My front rims last about 50 kmiles before the brake track gets dangerously thin and I need to rebuild the wheel with a new rim.

It's too bad the discussion got so sidetracked. I would have liked to hear of people's experience with different rim materials that might reduce the amount of brake-related wear.

Being about $200 each, rims only, when they were offered [Mavic used to]
meant sales did not justify them.

I've been fine with Kool Stop Salmon brake pads, on good aluminum Rims for decades..

though for foul weather and Black Ice, the Drum brake hubs are a winner ..

I leave the studs on it, old MTB..

since getting a disc braked Bike Friday.. [it has a SON centerloc disc 20" hub]

Your experience is certainly different than mine. Almost all of my rim failures have been due to wear of the brake track and that's always been of the front rim since I use the front brake much more than the rear. My front rims last about 50 kmiles before the brake track gets dangerously thin and I need to rebuild the wheel with a new rim.

It's too bad the discussion got so sidetracked. I would have liked to hear of people's experience with different rim materials that might reduce the amount of brake-related wear.

I don't think our experience is that different. 50k miles is pretty good rim life, though front wheels do seem to last forever, and I can understand that brake wear may be the only way to kill them off. But when you think about it, 50k miles up and down San Francisco's hills, using mainly the front brake wouldn't be premature failure.

Rims can and do wear out, but as you show it takes a long while (road, not mtb) and most people would be very happy to get the kind of wheel life where the ultimate failure was from brake wear. As a matter of fact many people would be very happy to get in 50k miles in a lifetime, never mind on the same bike or wheels.

I hope you take serious pride in your ability to actually wear out your equipment. In you're shoes, I wouldn't destroy a wheel that old, but hang it in the garage as a trophy. Compare that with the vast number of bikes that collect dust and get ridden less than 500 miles before ending up in a scrap bin or garage sale.

I don't think our experience is that different. 50k miles is pretty good rim life, though front wheels do seem to last forever, and I can understand that brake wear may be the only way to kill them off. But when you think about it, 50k miles up and down San Francisco's hills, using mainly the front brake wouldn't be premature failure.

Rims can and do wear out, but as you show it takes a long while (road, not mtb) and most people would be very happy to get the kind of wheel life where the ultimate failure was from brake wear. As a matter of fact many people would be very happy to get in 50k miles in a lifetime, never mind on the same bike or wheels.

I hope you take serious pride in your ability to actually wear out your equipment. In you're shoes, I wouldn't destroy a wheel that old, but hang it in the garage as a trophy. Compare that with the vast number of bikes that collect dust and get ridden less than 500 miles before ending up in a scrap bin or garage sale.

+100! Andy.

Thanks for the interest and info guys - I have to say the responses have been much more helpful than the feedback I got when this was first posted!

Apparently Rigida went into recievership a year or so ago and has reopened under the Ryde name. I'm guessing - they used to be common OEM rims on a number of brands but are based in Europe so probably geographically they found it hard to compete with companies like Alex who are right next door to bicycle manufactures. Regardless - they seem to be pretty popular in England and SJS carry rims and wheelsets with and without CSS braking surface treatment. http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/mobile/

So currently I have some wheelsets built from Mavic A719 rims and XT hubs. The rims are double eyeleted and my cost here in Canada is what they retail for in the US - about $80. If I drove those in the winter and salt here in Montreal I'd be lucky to get two seasons out of them so I don't plan on it. Yeah - sidewalls can wear pretty quickly in gritty, salty conditions.

So double eyeleted Rigida Grizzly's are about $50 each, and $100 each with CSS treatment. Considering the cost of shipping isn't going to change, and that spokes and hubs will run another $100/wheel anyway - it didn't seem to be a big deal to throw another hundred dollars in there and get something that might stand up for five years instead of just two.

Doesn't seem like much to lose and I'm looking for a second set for an ebike anyway. No disc brake bosses on this baby so I'm stuck with rim brakes and currently have XT parallel push V-brakes on it. Braking performance is good but because the average speed is higher - this thing eats brake pads and will likely get less life expectancy out of a set of rims anyway.

And of course there's the novelty factor and I find curiosity kinda drives me anyway. So for those others that are interested - I'll keep this updated ocassionally as things progress.

Wishing everyone a very Merry Christmas!