Fifty Plus (50+) - Youths Getting In Way on Trail Intentionally, For Fun

Does this frustrate you, too?

I was riding home on Saturday on the W&OD paved multi-use trail. At about 200 yards, I see four 12-14 year old boys in the opposite lane of the trail. Into a headwind and slightly uphill, I was slowing anyhow, as I approached them I could see them furtively glancing back toward me and talking and gesturing among themselves. "Here it comes", I think to myself.

So, I slowed down to about 10 mph and said (firmly, not aggressively) "heads up" at about 10 yards away. Then suddenly one of them semi-stumbles directly into my path.

Naturally, I had to stop abruptly to avoid hitting him.

They said "we didn't see you". I said, "I was a teenage boy once, and you're lying". Still straddling my bike, I grabbed the boy by the arm to spin him around to look him in the eye. "Don't lie to me... admit that you did that for fun, to see what would happen." He looks away slightly "I didn't know that you were so close..."

This conversation is going nowhere and I have no authority over the boys. No crime was committed. Just frustrating...

Phil

This is part of dealing with mutli use trails, and I have only had this once last year, but it makes me very proactive to anticipate it.

Note:
You indicated no law was broken, but your grabbing the youths arm can be used as legal action against you.
Be careful out there.

This happens to me almost every ride. Around here they are usually older "kids". :mad: Can't say much more or I'll have to ban myself.

This is part of dealing with mutli use trails, and I have only had this once last year, but it makes me very proactive to anticipate it.

Note:
You indicated no law was broken, but your grabbing the youths arm can be used as legal action against you.
Be careful out there.

I know. My dad was a lawyer and a judge. Under the circumstances, my actions would be judged as crossing a line in only the most progressive, fringe courts. I tried to turn him as non-violently at possible. Of course, there's always adrenaline pumping... Thanks.

Does this frustrate you, too?

I was riding home on Saturday on the W&OD paved multi-use trail. At about 200 yards, I see four 12-14 year old boys in the opposite lane of the trail. Into a headwind and slightly uphill, I was slowing anyhow, as I approached them I could see them furtively glancing back toward me and talking and gesturing among themselves. "Here it comes", I think to myself.

So, I slowed down to about 10 mph and said (firmly, not aggressively) "heads up" at about 10 yards away. Then suddenly one of them semi-stumbles directly into my path.

Naturally, I had to stop abruptly to avoid hitting him.

They said "we didn't see you". I said, "I was a teenage boy once, and you're lying". Still straddling my bike, I grabbed the boy by the arm to spin him around to look him in the eye. "Don't lie to me... admit that you did that for fun, to see what would happen." He looks away slightly "I didn't know that you were so close..."

This conversation is going nowhere and I have no authority over the boys. No crime was committed. Just frustrating...

Phil

Congrats. You just committed assault.

One thing I try to remember is that *I* am not law enforcement. All I can do is get through the situation safely. Anything more than that- explaining the law, trying to make someone apologize, trying to punish them for poor decisions, are law enforcement funcitons. Have I ever done something similar to what you did? Yes. But really, not a good idea. If you do feel the need to engage, make sure it is verbal only and not physical, and do not issue any threats.

Having said that, my wife is a teacher and has the Teacher Voice. She knows exactly what to say and how to say it so that the proper impression is conveyed, without crossing the line. It's an amazing thing to watch.

You just committed assault.

As a frequent MUP rider myself, I don't often see that here.... just the usual annoying stuff. Luckily our trails get you out of urban areas into some fairly wide open spaces where there aren't a huge number of pedestrians.

This happens to me almost every ride. Around here they are usually older "kids". :mad: Can't say much more or I'll have to ban myself.

You can always do what people do in PA on MUPs. Carry. "Be judged by 12 instead of carried by 6."

Twice over 10 years, and I ignored it both times, reporting it to the authorities later. Our police and park authorities do patrol. You gave them exactly what they wanted - a violent reaction, possibly subjecting yourself to criminal action. I would guess they have no clue as to who you are, however, unless their lawyer does internet research and traces your confession, IP address, etc. on this forum through a subpoena to the forum.

One does need to watch what they write on the internet.

I usually just yell "WTF IS YOUR PROBLEM???!!!!" More effective than you'd think.

Actually, assault is verbal. He admitted to grabbing the youth. He confessed to the crime of Battery. Most likely Misdemeanor Battery, but that would be up to the statutes of the local jurisdiction.

I was riding some singletrack yesterday (first time with my spd clipless pedals, so I was a frequent visitor to Club Tombay, but that's another story), and as I was coming around a bend in the trail, a family of three or four were stopped right in the middle of the trail, less than 50 feet from the end of the trail. They were completely blocking the trail as the father did some sort of equipment repair for his son. A group of teenagers is mischievous enough on their own, without parents who are clueless and selfish about proper etiquette teaching them wrong to begin with.

Anyone remember the recent story where the marine dad came into the living room to find his daughter and boyfriend having consensual sex on the sofa? Dad punched the boy, and, upon a complaint from the young man, was arrested and found guilty of battery. I don't know the sentence!

Daughter claimed it was her very first time.

After reading the feedback, I guess that I did cross the line. I need to be better prepared in a situation like this. I have a command voice, as I used to be an amateur ice hockey referee for a number of years.

The hard lesson is that you can't grab someone. Period. Sigh.

I've also had a young man - about 18 to 20 jump sideways to block me as I approached on the WO&D. Without much time to react safely (i.e. stop) I slowed, set my head down / balanced myself, moved further left and shouted HEADS UP! In a second I was past, the miscreant having ducked back next to his girlfriend. I don't know how I'd have come out of a collision but only one of us had a helmet and it wasn't him.

I don't understand how our youth can think causing someone to crash and possible suffer serious injury would be a fun activity.

I don't understand how our youth can think causing someone to crash and possible suffer serious injury would be a fun activity.

‘Do you think’, said Candide, ‘that men have always massacred each other as they are doing today? That they have always been liars, cheats, traitors, ingrates, brigands, weaklings, unreliables, cowards, enviers, gluttons, drunkards, misers, social climbers, bloodsuckers, slanderers, debauchees, fanatics, hypocrites, and fools?’


‘Do you think’, said Martin, ‘that sparrow hawks have always eaten pigeons when they found some?’


‘Yes, without doubt,’ said Candide.


‘All right!, said Martin, ‘if sparrow hawks have always had the same character, why do you expect men to have changed theirs?’

After reading the feedback, I guess that I did cross the line. I need to be better prepared in a situation like this. I have a command voice, as I used to be an amateur ice hockey referee for a number of years.

The hard lesson is that you can't grab someone. Period. Sigh.

If the lesson is learned by a posting on a message board, then all is well. I know about Misdemeanor Battery because I was charged with it many years ago trying to defend my wife and property against a gang of teenagers.

I have also learned never to answer questions to the police before consulting with a lawyer. I told them how I put my hand on the boy's shoulder to get him to calm down. Several lawyers I consulted with said that by my statement I had confessed to the crime. I will never put my hands on anyone in a conflict situation unless it's a clear case of self-defense.

I try not be confrontative at all. I didn't say anything to the family on the trail yesterday. Meanwhile it (along with other reasons) has me thinking about trying not to ride solo any more, but if I wait for my schedule to sync up with other peoples, I might never ride.

BluesDawg mentioned boy scouts, and all of our training focuses on the buddy system and two-deep leadership (Which means a minimum of 4 leaders), because if there must always be a minimum of two leaders with the boys, if something happens to someone and there's only two or three leaders, the whole group has to attend to the problem, as opposed to breaking two people off to deal with it (possibly go for help, transport the person needing assistance, or stay with the person while waiting for assistance) while two continue on or stay with the group and attend to the person in trouble.

Did what I just wrote make sense?

‘Do you think’, said Candide, ‘that men have always massacred each other as they are doing today? That they have always been liars, cheats, traitors, ingrates, brigands, weaklings, unreliables, cowards, enviers, gluttons, drunkards, misers, social climbers, bloodsuckers, slanderers, debauchees, fanatics, hypocrites, and fools?’


‘Do you think’, said Martin, ‘that sparrow hawks have always eaten pigeons when they found some?’


‘Yes, without doubt,’ said Candide.


‘All right!, said Martin, ‘if sparrow hawks have always had the same character, why do you expect men to have changed theirs?’


Yep. While out on rides, I've had college-age-looking guys throw stuff out of speeding cars at my ( then ) eight-year-old on his bike. I suppose I can look at the positive side of things and be happy that I've trained him to stop RIGHT NOW when I yell...

I pass many groups of teenagers on our MUP. I've often expected to have problems getting through them (bad behavior usually increases with groups), but they have not only made a hole for me to get through, but often even been polite about. I'm generally saying things like "plenty of room now, thank you very much!" as I reach them, and I'm pretty sure that helps, but so far the local teens have improved my general perception of our youth.

I pass many groups of teenagers on our MUP. I've often expected to have problems getting through them (bad behavior usually increases with groups), but they have not only made a hole for me to get through, but often even been polite about. I'm generally saying things like "plenty of room now, thank you very much!" as I reach them, and I'm pretty sure that helps, but so far the local teens have improved my general perception of our youth.


We've had extremely good experiences on our local MUP ( primarily the Erie Canal towpath ). Everyone seems to know what "On your left!" means, the roadies don't go weaving in and out of people at 25MPH, and people are polite, regardless of age. The biggest "problem" are the small kids on new bikes weaving back-and-forth over the path, but they're generally avoidable.

Just another reason I'm glad there are no MUPs here, and why I avoid them like the plague.

SP
Bend, OR

The hard lesson is that you can't grab someone. Period. Sigh.

That, and you can't threaten them with harm (that's the assault part, even if you don't touch them).

Our MUPs locally just don't have this problem. The worst I get are people who are unconscious/careless about the danger they subject themselves to when moving near the paved path. It's worst when some kind of charity walk follows the path and it is not otherwise closed off by police. They don't know the rules of the path (that it is multi-use) and don't realize they need to share the path with cylcists.

A couple other problems I see: People walking their dogs often have the pup on a leash. Dog's on one side of the path while the owner is on the other - with the leash straight across the path. And sometimes, it's a BIG dog.

Other problem I anticipate an eventual problem with is, some of the younger kids in packs. How long until they figure they can shove you off your bike as you pass, and hijack your bike, leaving you crumpled in the weeds? I can see that happening eventually...

Assault? Nah. You were just helping him back up. ;) But next time, let him get up by himself.

Well, they could read your body language 200 yards away. Hunching down, slowing down, barking "Heads Up".

Another thing you could have done is maintain an open position. Sped up a bit to a confident speed. Don't stare at them, but keep your head up and as they got close, start to wave at them and acknowledge them as humans. It might have put them off their rythym. It couldn't have made things worse.

And at the worst, with your speed up, they'd be less likely to try and swerve into your lane and you'd be in a better spot to put the hammer down.

Other problem I anticipate an eventual problem with is, some of the younger kids in packs. How long until they figure they can shove you off your bike as you pass, and hijack your bike, leaving you crumpled in the weeds? I can see that happening eventually...

Eventually? Something like that happened to me over 30 years ago. One gang of kids was tailing me and another gang in a car slammed my bike to the curb and leapt out with bats.

And another time, a teen passed me when I was going up hill, and ran his rear tire over my front tire. That dropped me. I had to get to work, so I picked up and went on. As I passed him, he stiff armed me into traffic, tacoing my rear rim and dropping us both on the street. Why didn't I call the cops? It was a part of L.A. that was the turf of the MS 13 gang (http://www.altereddimensions.net/crime/ms13gang.aspx). That was only 25 years ago.

I haven't had any trouble with young people on our bike paths. However, the older women and joggers are an entirely different breed. They drive to the bike paths to go walking or jogging and clearly feel that this is their own private track. Four or more across, all flapping their lips so that they can't hear cyclists call out for them to move over. Even when they do hear the passing calls they won't move. It's made even worse by the fact that in OR our bike paths are defined as roads. As they are roads and don't have sidewalks, our right-of-way laws mandate pedestrians be on the shoulder, single file and gives them no right-of-way. Now, none of us cyclists really want the law enforced that rigidly, but we would like to be able to travel along the bike path at better than a slow walking pace.

My wife's solution is to use a horn that sounds like a dog's chew-toy. Everyone looks to see what is coming. (I think they are afraid it will be a large dog.) Most of them laugh at the horn and provide a bit of room. That works a lot better than a bell.

Oh well, it is better than what was happening in Sacramento twenty years ago when thugs were hiding in the bushes and whacking cyclists with 2X4s.

I actaully stopped yesterday on my ride to talk to a mother about what she and her kids were doing. I was ending a nice ride with the last two miles on the Schuykill River Trail when I see a group of six people ahead. It turns out to be a mother, her adult daughter, and four kids of various ages. They are taking up the entire lane. As I approach the oldest mother turns back and sees me; she says something to the group and they start laughing. I get closer and shout, "Passing - coming through". No one moved an inch from their spot. I was forced to stop. When I did, I said to the oldest mother, "What's the deal here?" She replies, with her hands on her hips, "We've got a right to this path too." I reply, "Yes, and so do others. But no one has the right to the entire path." She snaps back, "We'll take the whole damn path if we want to, and there's nothing you can do about it." I just nod and say, OK, but do you see that guy about 1500 yards away? He's riding a time trial bike. His head is down, and he may not be paying attention or be as nice of a guy as I am. If he isn't either of those two things you risk losing one or more of these kids. At the speed he's going, and I'm guessing total weight of the bike and rider is over 150 lbs., if he hits someone, they're as good as done. Do what you want, but me? I love my kids and would teach 'em better." I clip back in and ride away. I look back a few second later as the other rider is approaching head on, and guess what? Yep, a nice clear path opens up and he sails through without slowing down.

I've stopped and had similar conversations with owners of dogs who don't have them on a lead or who let them (on lead) wander willy nilly anywhere they want on those retractable 20 ft. leads. I found that most seem: 1. to be surprised that I stopped. 2. able to listen as long as I'm not yelling, and 3. to be at least considering what I've said. Sometimes people (kids included) just don't think.

I have heard of some incidents on the minuteman bikeway. Usually, it's nothing more than "youths" deliberately standing in the way, making comments regarding your masculinity as you pass. But I have heard of some more nefarious stuff happening at night. Of course, they're "simply acting out their feelings of misplaced anger...." :notamused:

People are correct on the assault stuff. I was advised by a cop years ago, that if you just lay a hand on them, it could be construed as an assault on a minor. The pukes know this, of course. I think that to some extent, they are just daring you to do something. And remember, in this age of little hand-held camcorders and smart phones, anything could be captured on video and posted on youtube in a matter of minutes. I frequently wonder if that is just what they want. Be careful!

It's not just kids though. One fine morning, I was riding up the minuteman, from Lexington to Bedford. Traffic was very light, only a few other cyclists and runners. Not a problem, right? So, coming toward me, are three suburban women, middle aged. They are spread out, across the bikeway. All three had this nasty facial expression. I slowed to a very slow pace. No, they were not going to move, I could see that. I finally just came to a stop, and stood astride my bike. As they passed, one gave me a death look. Seriously, I didn't know any of them, but here was this look that suggested I had just run over the family pet. So, they're now about ten feet behind me. I'm re-mounting, and one of them, the one with the death look, shrieks at me, "We have a RIGHT to be here!!" I was about to say something back, thought better of it, and moved on.

A serious case of "WTF".

No way would I stop and argue with an MUP hogging moron without a video cam running. It's just a waste of time and energy.

Back in the early eighties we had a gang of young teens who used to block the road frustrating all the local resident motorists. My exhaust systems were quite audible so the kids could easily hear me accelerating as I approached their walking blockade from the rear. They always parted and allowed me to pass without hesitation and I always thanked them with a wave of the hand for their respect of my right of way.

Get yourself a nice airhorn. Give 'em a blast of the horn and just barrel through...they'll move aside. They're challenging you and it's just a case of not backing down.

Now before I start a riot here, I am assuming that you handle those you recognize as repeat offenders with drive-thru force...not first time encounters. After all, most folks are decent and considerate of others. Only a select few feel as if they own the ground they stand on.

Twice over 10 years, and I ignored it both times, reporting it to the authorities later. Our police and park authorities do patrol. You gave them exactly what they wanted - a violent reaction, possibly subjecting yourself to criminal action. I would guess they have no clue as to who you are, however, unless their lawyer does internet research and traces your confession, IP address, etc. on this forum through a subpoena to the forum.

One does need to watch what they write on the internet.

+++++++A Lot

No person is immune from what they post on the internet. No matter what kind of privacy assurances are given by any particular site you have no way of enforcing them. No person is so "little" that they escape the interest of someone for some purpose. Good Rule: If it isn't on your personal computer physically in your home or office it is public. Even then, to your detriment, you may not be safe from intrusion.

Now before I start a riot here, I am assuming that you handle those you recognize as repeat offenders with drive-thru force...not first time encounters. After all, most folks are decent and considerate of others. Only a select few feel as if they own the ground they stand on.

Our trail signs and literature CLEARLY give the right-of-way to 1st) horses/equestrians; and 2nd) pedestrians; and 3rd and last) bicycles. It makes no mention that this rule applies only the first time you meet some one, or if they are blocking the trail or not. Knocking someone over as you zoom through them on a bicycle, no matter the previous aggravation, would win you no points with the police, nor, if it went that far, the courts.

Just relax, folks, Bicycling is supposed to be FUN - and you can control your actions and reactions as a mature adult.

You can always do what people do in PA on MUPs. Carry. "Be judged by 12 instead of carried by 6."

Does the annoying-bordering-on-dangerous behavior described by the OP really rise to the level of talking about blowing someone away with a gun?

Really glad that there are no MUPs in my neck of the woods.

I was walking and saw two 50 year olds yelling at each other. One a female and one male. they were going in opposite
directions on the trail. He didn't get over far enough for her . So she started yelling at him. Mind you there were
4 other adults there with me. She took out her cell phone and took pictures of him. He rode up to her and grabbed the
phone. Then they started pushing each other while they were both on bikes. The woman didn't start yelling until
she was well pass all of us. I know the man so I called him afterwards when he got home. He took the phone to the
police station. He didn't want his picture on the internet. She was yelling her husband was a lawyer. So he told her his brother was a lawyer so what!

It was kinda funny. The point I am telling you take a video camera and take pictures. Or record them. Or beware you could be on a video somewhere.

Does the annoying-bordering-on-dangerous behavior described by the OP really rise to the level of talking about blowing someone away with a gun?

Really glad that there are no MUPs in my neck of the woods.

In 10 years, I have had two minor incidents. Otherwise, I find 99% of the peds and other bicyclists to be friendly, accommodating and enjoyable. Can you say the same for the cars and motorists you encounter?

And people wonder why I absolutely hate kids............

In 10 years, I have had two minor incidents. Otherwise, I find 99% of the peds and other bicyclists to be friendly, accommodating and enjoyable. Can you say the same for the cars and motorists you encounter?

I suppose my expectations are lower for motorists. Usually I am pleasantly surprised by their behavior. Not always.

I suppose my expectations are lower for motorists. Usually I am pleasantly surprised by their behavior. Not always.

I have people wave, say "thank you" when I ring my bell, carefully hold their dogs close on their leash. There are several regular bicyclists who are "wave friends" as well as some joggers. I generally stop and talk with folks at the several rest stops on the trail, and have met some interesting folks, including a guitar player strumming away by hinself who sort of traveled around doing odd jobs.

But, these are the things I like to do when bicycling - meet people, see new sights, take pictures, etc.

In 10 years, I have had two minor incidents. Otherwise, I find 99% of the peds and other bicyclists to be friendly, accommodating and enjoyable. Can you say the same for the cars and motorists you encounter?

+1 to that. I can't imagine being glad there are no MUPs in one's area. There's no requirement to use them if you don't want to anyway.

And people wonder why I absolutely hate kids............




Try them on the grill with a nice Malbec. I'm betting you'll warm up to them!:innocent:

Funny...2:20 into the video. I slow to cross a wooden bridge. Older dude and his wife on the side watching the water. as I approach, I shout "onyerleft" and ring my bell about 5 times. Sure nuff just as I get there, the old dude takes off. After reading this thread, I'm thinking I should have grabbed him by the shoulder and shook some sense into his arse.:D

Seriously, I ring my bell and say coming through etc. If they don't hear me or I figure they are messing with me, I shout "COMING BY!!!!!!" in a very loud authroitve voice. It hasn't failed me yet.:D

Friend was right ahead so I joked with him, but it was actullay the old dude behind that almost hit us.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjseIaSAWaE

Does the annoying-bordering-on-dangerous behavior described by the OP really rise to the level of talking about blowing someone away with a gun?

Really glad that there are no MUPs in my neck of the woods.

In 2009, on the Schuylkill River Trail, there were a number of incidents. A woman was battered in the face as she was riding home on her commute. And another commuter shot at two youths who tried to knock him over for his bike. There was also allegedly an incident on the trail near Reading.

I was told by a regular rider on the Ghost Town Trail in central PA that they have problems with 'kids'. I observed trail signs with bullet holes. And when I asked the rider what he did if he had any trouble, he pulled up his jersey and showed me his pistol on his hip.

BTW, I myself have had some 'uncomfortable' experiences riding in both PA and NJ. This includes an instance where I was chased by someone. The guy I was riding with interposed himself between me and my pursuer, and I got away scared but unharmed.

This is yet another reason why I avoid MUPs like the plague.

As long people keep telling each other that it's wrong to hit a kid who does the wrong thing, there will be young kids who do the wrong thing, confidently knowing they will get away with it. Some of them will be confident enough to graduate from tom-foolery to stealing and then to more serious crimes (and then to jail). Will this be your child?

Try them on the grill with a nice Malbec. I'm betting you'll warm up to them!:innocent:

Yeah, but I don't want to eat something I just spit on.

As long people keep telling each other that it's wrong to hit a kid who does the wrong thing, there will be young kids who do the wrong thing, confidently knowing they will get away with it. Some of them will be confident enough to graduate from tom-foolery to stealing and then to more serious crimes (and then to jail). Will this be your child?

People aren't telling each other - the law and the courts are telling the people. And, as a parent, I don't want you hitting my kid. If he did (well, that was 40 years ago) something wrong - I want you to tell me, and I will take corrective action.

After reading the feedback, I guess that I did cross the line. I need to be better prepared in a situation like this. I have a command voice, as I used to be an amateur ice hockey referee for a number of years.

The hard lesson is that you can't grab someone. Period. Sigh.

Personally I think you did great. Cyclists get mugged on those trails in NoVa. If you scared him out of doing something like that again or something worse, you've done everyone a good deed.

I suspect these youngsters aren't so brave that they would jump in front of cars. They probably don't realize that getting hit by a bicyclist could result in their death.

A young lady was hit by accident by a bicyclist on an MUP in Dallas and died. She veered into the path of a cyclist unintentionally and was knocked to the pavement where she hit her head.

Yeah, but I don't want to eat something I just spit on.

"Just past the Smitts"

Do the Smitts have any kids? I hope not. :)

"Just past the Smitts"

Do the Smitts have any kids? I hope not. :)

Farm kids are smart enough to know someone will kick their asses if they act like idiots.