Foo - Infrastructure and energy (split from Beautiful Cars)

The website says it takes 45 min to recharge. That's shocking. Especially considering they said that capability is through a normal outlet. I just don't see how it's possible.

The website says it takes 45 min to recharge. That's shocking. Especially considering they said that capability is through a normal outlet. I just don't see how it's possible.
Day and a half through 110. 45 min quick charge with 220 and wall unit capacitor.

Day and a half through 110. 45 min quick charge with 220 and wall unit capacitor.
Ah. They aren't technically lying, it's just the way the ad is written.


Choose from one of three battery pack options to suit typical driving needs: 160, 230, or 300 miles per charge. Concerned with Range Anxiety? Like the Roadster, the Model S is engineered to plug into nearly any outlet, anywhere in the world. With the ability to recharge in 45 minutes, the car begs to be driven everywhere you want to go.

Cool car but the major drawback to all electric is the minimal range. It's nice to see Tesla trying to do something about it but the infrastructure isn't quite there yet.

We've had the infrastructure before. Back in the Baker Electric days New York had charging stations all over the place.

We've had the infrastructure before. Back in the Baker Electric days New York had charging stations all over the place.
Electric was set to be the fuel of choice for autos at the turn of the previous century. It's too bad that didn't happen.

What's really too bad is that we put all our eggs (or all of our eggs were put) in one basket. If we'd gone pure electric a hundred years ago, our situation wouldn't be much different today. Tens/hundreds of millions of cars all drawing a full charge every day? Ouch. We'd be much better off today if we'd continued on the course of multiple fuel options. Competition not only amongst manufacturers, but different engine types, drivetrains, coachwork...

Of course, had driving stayed a more difficult/expensive activity and we built our cities and infrastructure intelligently so that motorized transport wasn't absolutely necessary for the majority of people, it would've been better still.

are you actually being logical? in foo? Don't make me report you!

I'll chop you up in little bits, melt you down in a vat of hyperbolic acid, feed you to ladybugs, and flush the ladybugs down the toilet. DON'T MESS WITH ME.

This sounds like a normal day for me....are you gonna tickle my feet too?

What's really too bad is that we put all our eggs (or all of our eggs were put) in one basket. If we'd gone pure electric a hundred years ago, our situation wouldn't be much different today. Tens/hundreds of millions of cars all drawing a full charge every day? Ouch. We'd be much better off today if we'd continued on the course of multiple fuel options. Competition not only amongst manufacturers, but different engine types, drivetrains, coachwork...

Of course, had driving stayed a more difficult/expensive activity and we built our cities and infrastructure intelligently so that motorized transport wasn't absolutely necessary for the majority of people, it would've been better still.

Actually we'd be much better off having gone electric. Look at the actual cost of the electricity required to charge an electric car , versus the cost to fill aguess. You're talking literally pennies on the dollar.
And when you consider how much money and fuel is spent shipping the fuel to other parts of the world then our electrical grid would probably be in better condition because we'd have probably learned to scale it out a bit better to handle the demand that big cities require.

Actually we'd be much better off having gone electric. Look at the actual cost of the electricity required to charge an electric car , versus the cost to fill aguess. You're talking literally pennies on the dollar.
And when you consider how much money and fuel is spent shipping the fuel to other parts of the world then our electrical grid would probably be in better condition because we'd have probably learned to scale it out a bit better to handle the demand that big cities require.

Having worked in planning dept. for a utility company, no we wouldn't be better off. The grid is already in need of major upgrades. Most areas need to add more generating capacity as is, to handle current loads. Coal is not clean. Nuclear is not wanted by most, and it takes a long time to build....then you have to decommission it. Electric cars will overwhelm the current grid when everyone gets home and plugs in.

Having worked in planning dept. for a utility company, no we wouldn't be better off. The grid is already in need of major upgrades. Most areas need to add more generating capacity as is, to handle current loads. Coal is not clean. Nuclear is not wanted by most, and it takes a long time to build....then you have to decommission it. Electric cars will overwhelm the current grid when everyone gets home and plugs in.

Which means that we would have been forced to solve the problem, that we have to solve in the next half a decade / decade, now or a decade ago.

We've put off the problem for a good while because we've not had to. :)

But in the long run, electricity is WAY MORE efficient for vehicles. It's crazy just how much more efficient it is, even when you're using gasoline to generate it.

Which means that we would have been forced to solve the problem, that we have to solve in the next half a decade / decade, now or a decade ago.

We've put off the problem for a good while because we've not had to. :)

But in the long run, electricity is WAY MORE efficient for vehicles. It's crazy just how much more efficient it is, even when you're using gasoline to generate it.

And honestly, from what I've seen, most people could actually throw a solar panel or 2 on their house to pay for their electric car. Rembembring that most people drive approximately 40 miles in a day max. Combined with the potential of 20 years ago actually bringing the concept/idea of more point-of-use generation of electricity to regular people, I think would have had longer lasting effects.

And honestly, from what I've seen most people could actually throw a solar panel or 2 on their house to pay for their car so the potential to 20 years ago having been bringing the idea of more point-of-use generation of electricity I think would have had longer lasting effects.

Solar panel efficiency is an issue we haven't really mastered yet.
In addition, what do you do when its cloudy? A lot of places don't get enough sunlight for 6 months or more for SP's to be worthwhile.
The best solution is one that provides multiple answers, as much as it pains me to agree with X. :p

Solar panel efficiency is an issue we haven't really mastered yet.
In addition, what do you do when its cloudy? A lot of places don't get enough sunlight for 6 months or more for SP's to be worthwhile.
The best solution is one that provides multiple answers, as much as it pains me to agree with X. :p

I agree with multiple solutions, but it doesn't always have to be that answer, or solutions for that problem. Like i said- if you look at how little electricity electric cars actually use. You can throw 1-4 solar panels on everybody's house and throughout the year they get enough sunlight to offset the whole city's electric car drain.

Not to mention most of our grid problems are man-created problems that are pretty much have the same source as why we use gasoline. Greed and Money. There's more money to be made with gasoline then there is with solar powered water heaters (which usually cut 1/3 of non-A/C related bills) or electric cars which are far simpler machines and are 2-4 times more efficient depending upon how much idling you end up doing in the city. And a large portion of A/C electric bills could be cut down with properly built houses.

The problem with having multiple fuels is pretty much the same problem we have with Diesel and Gas and is the one reason why the Volt could be the biggest winner.
There are some gas stations here where there are no diesel pumps. If you need Diesel you need to go to a different gas station. It costs lots of money shipping any type of fuel from it's source. Having multiple types of fuel drastically increases the overhead and inefficiency of fuel distribution. It also greatly confuses the customer because and puts a large burden on an already dumb customer base. What fuel does my car need and where can I find it. Will I be able to find it if I go on a trip to abc.

The volt is probably the best winner on the transition from gas to electric because you use electric and when you're out of your 40 mile range and have not had time to charge up you switch over to gas. An infrastructure that already exists all around the world.
Hydrogen? There's probably what 200 Hydrogen refueling stations around the US if that many. Most concentrated in very select regions. Methane? Propane? Vegetable Oil ?

It really is a human problem.

Well, the one thing we can probably agree on is HPV's. :D

Human Pappillion Virus?

That's extra.

Possibly, but TANSTAAFL. The electricity would still have to come from somewhere, fueled by something, polluting somewhere, costing some amount.

It's possible that our electricity delivery infrastructure would be better, but it might've ended up just as cobbled together and on the brink of failure as it is today, just more of it. Or it'd be better, but way more expensive to cover the costs of upkeep and upgrades.

In the end, a system of transportational affluence that ends up looking like ours does currently is going to cost a lot (and not only monetarily) no matter what's turning the wheels.

You've obviously never looked at the amount of energy expent drilling oil a mile or so below the surface of the earth, shipped from half around the world via a ship, sent to a refinery where it's refined for consumption, shipped to a holding center and then delivered to a gas station near you so that you may expend fuel to get it.

Looking at the massive engine efficiency that electricity has over your gas engine and then looking at the massive lack of fuel required to deliver said fuel around the world I think it's safe to say several things.

1) In the long run electricity is way more efficient.
2) We'd have solved, nearly solved and thought out a lot of things a tad differently from a technological and infrastructure point of view. Being faced with the problems we're now facing today a bit earlier. Building infrastructure in-mind that it's going to have to do this.

Honestly it wouldn't surprise me if you did the math and found that replacing a majority of the water heaters below xyz latitutde with solar water haters would more than counterbalance the drain that electric cars would have on our infrastructure. Electric cars run for 30-60 minutes. When you're idling in traffic you're not actually idling - that's an ICE concept. Your water heater runs for a lot more than that.

oh....a blue star attack again.

The website says it takes 45 min to recharge. That's shocking. Especially considering they said that capability is through a normal outlet. I just don't see how it's possible.

Result of several Major breakthrough s that MIT has made with quick-charge lithium batteries. There's a few articles floating around the net. The technology is slowly starting to trickle down to other things and getting worked on by other people. Naturally patents and what not will initially hinder some development but once the concept is out there other companies can start tackling it as the demand for it inreases.

You've obviously never looked at the amount of energy expent drilling oil a mile or so below the surface of the earth, shipped from half around the world via a ship, sent to a refinery where it's refined for consumption, shipped to a holding center and then delivered to a gas station near you so that you may expend fuel to get it.

Looking at the massive engine efficiency that electricity has over your gas engine and then looking at the massive lack of fuel required to deliver said fuel around the world I think it's safe to say several things.

1) In the long run electricity is way more efficient.
2) We'd have solved, nearly solved and thought out a lot of things a tad differently from a technological and infrastructure point of view. Being faced with the problems we're now facing today a bit earlier. Building infrastructure in-mind that it's going to have to do this.

Honestly it wouldn't surprise me if you did the math and found that replacing a majority of the water heaters below xyz latitutde with solar water haters would more than counterbalance the drain that electric cars would have on our infrastructure. Electric cars run for 30-60 minutes. When you're idling in traffic you're not actually idling - that's an ICE concept. Your water heater runs for a lot more than that.

As I said, coal is very dirty. It takes energy to remove coal from the ground, ship it to the electric generating facilities (diesel trains), and we would need a lot more of it then we currently use. An all electric car society sounds great, till one realizes what it really means.

Nuclear would require add'l reactors....and more uranium. Reactors come with their own set of issues (3 mile island, Chernobyl, etc.). Uranium mining is ugly, nasty stuff. Worse then coal in some aspects. Then of course there's the disposal issue. We don't have a place to store all of the spent uranium and plutonium we already have. Add more? Nightmare!

Natural Gas can be used during peak times (turbines can be brought up in 15 or so minutes). Its not too bad enviornmentally, till you realize its generally collected the same way oil is, and often times with oil.

Bulli (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110301/ap_on_bi_ge/eu_geneva_auto_show_vw_bus)

Bulli (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110301/ap_on_bi_ge/eu_geneva_auto_show_vw_bus)

Now that would be sweet!

pushing an attitude that the world is fixed by replacing your two year old car with a Prius and recycling your bottled water bottles.
:roflmao: +5000

Couldn't have said it better myself.

I think Mazda has a concept vehicle that eliminates the drivetrain. Instead puts 4 tiny electric motors attached to each wheel.

Quite ingenious. Lets you eliminate the transmission (which you can actually do with a lot of electric cars) but can eliminate the drivetrain. Think they said that's a near 10% efficiency increase right there.

I think Mazda has a concept vehicle that eliminates the drivetrain. Instead puts 4 tiny electric motors attached to each wheel.

Quite ingenious. Lets you eliminate the transmission (which you can actually do with a lot of electric cars) but can eliminate the drivetrain. Think they said that's a near 10% efficiency increase right there.

You'll still need half shafts, they could never mount motors to the suspension knuckle on a real road going car, too much unsprung weight.

I'm so glad I started this thread. :P

You'll still need half shafts, they could never mount motors to the suspension knuckle on a real road going car, too much unsprung weight.

We're talking tiny electric motors.
You're taking an already tiny electric motor - and splitting it 1/4 and then reducing the amount of power required by up to 10-15% because you're removing the massive inefficiency infrastructure. Mazda and a few other people either are working on them / have concept cars.

There's also talk about turning the whole wheel into a motor. Basically you take the motor out and part of the electric motor becomes integrated into your rim. I'm not quite sure how well that would work. But the motors they talk about are rather tiny.

So, what happens when you run out of juice in an electric car? Do you hitchhike down to the nearest station and fill an electricity can?

So, what happens when you run out of juice in an electric car? Do you hitchhike down to the nearest station and fill an electricity can?

http://www.denlorstools.com/shop/images/SOL-ES2500.jpg

Volkwagen has been showing off concepts of a new Type 2 at least as long as the New Beetle has been around. The electric drivetrain is new, but that one looks a lot like one I saw a few years ago. I wouldn't hold my breath.

I wish they had actually brought the 1 Liter car to market like they promised.

So, what happens when you run out of juice in an electric car? Do you hitchhike down to the nearest station and fill an electricity can?

This is why I said that the Volt was the best compromise in a transition world.
It has an electric motor and a gas powered electric generator.
This means that when you've exceeded the estimated 40 mile range of the electric battery you switch over to gas. and get an average fuel economy of 60mpg

There's also talk about turning the whole wheel into a motor. Basically you take the motor out and part of the electric motor becomes integrated into your rim. I'm not quite sure how well that would work.

The concept is sound, how they package that will be interesting. It will save weight, but it will still be unsprung weight.


We're talking tiny electric motors.

I don't think you realize what "tiny" means when talking about propelling a 3-4,000 pound vehicle. Even with four motors, you are talking about 40 to 50 pounds for each unit. That will be at least 50% more unsprung weight.

Toyota's 67 hp motor in the Prius weighs 80 pounds.

My bad it's not Mazda. It's Mitsubishi.

Based on the platform of a Mitsubishi Colt, and first exhibited in 2005, it was the first Mitsubishi EV where mass production and public sales were mooted, with a suggested price tag of US$19,000.[17] The car was driven by two in-wheel motors located in the rear wheels each producing a power of 20 kW and 600 N·m of torque without the need for a transmission. This gave the car a top speed of 150 kilometres per hour (93 mph) and an estimated range of 150 kilometres (93 mi) with a 13 kWh battery pack.[3]

I'm curious why they put 4 50kw motors in the Lancer evolution version of it.

Electric cars are great for in large cities. Where statistics have shown 60-80% of the people drive a maximum of 40-50 miles a day. Perfect range for most electric cars without gas powered generators.

With recent breakthroughs in battery charging/discharging the 1/2 a day - 1 day charge times will disappear making it possible to go to a meeting or work, plug your car in and then it's fully charged when you go home, be it 1-8 hours later.

If there were some kind of standardization battery-wise, some kind of system could be in place to quickly swap out the drained cells for charged ones.

Of course, in places like where you live, electric cars probably won't make many inroads. It's a mistake to expect any one solution to be the solution, however.

http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/6039/vw1litercarspeed1280x96.jpg

Yeah. I really liked the concept of that one. Real consideration given to light weight and efficiency. Even if they built a model with slightly less exotic materials (perhaps fiberglass over lightweight steel instead of carbon fiber over magnesium) and a bit larger an engine (600cc inline 2 or so?), it'd still be a great boon.

It appears to have been "replaced" with the L1:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1d/VW_L1.JPG/320px-VW_L1.JPG

...and now the XL1:
http://img691.imageshack.us/img691/7246/volkswagenxl1actf34ns12.jpg

...which is a more conventional, side-by-side vehicle. It's still very light for a modern car (1750 lbs, up from 639 in the original), is a diesel electric, and is streamlined without looking like yet another Prius/Insight cookie cutout. So if they release that, it'll be better than nothing, though I'd still prefer the original.

the fast swap battery is part of what tesla is working on, their plan is to have battery stations all over (like gas stations) where you can swap your dead battery for a new one. According to them, the whole process will take about 5-10 minutes.

I think the battery swap is probably gonna fail pretty epic. Too big of an infrastructure that won't work in too many places. I would think they would have better luck finding a way to have some secondary smaller batteries that can be 15 minute quick charged at outlets. Then you just carry the adapter required.

This is why I said that the Volt was the best compromise in a transition world.
It has an electric motor and a gas powered electric generator.
This means that when you've exceeded the estimated 40 mile range of the electric battery you switch over to gas. and get an average fuel economy of 60mpg
I've started seeing Volts all over the place. They look great in person and the extended range concept is currently the best transition idea, in my opinion. It allows for the long range convenience of a standard car (allowing for the infrastructure that's already in place) but uses a more efficient type of energy for everyday driving. The Prius was a great first step but the Volt has left it behind.

I've started seeing Volts all over the place. They look great in person and the extended range concept is currently the best transition idea, in my opinion. It allows for the long range convenience of a standard car (allowing for the infrastructure that's already in place) but uses a more efficient type of energy for everyday driving. The Prius was a great first step but the Volt has left it behind.
Yep.
And from their testing the Volt gets real world what the Prius has been boasted. Under some scenarios they say the Volt can average up to 90 miles to the gallon.

Yep.
And from their testing the Volt gets real world what the Prius has been boasted. Under some scenarios they say the Volt can average up to 90 miles to the gallon.
They're god-awful expensive, though. That's the drawback for me, but I'm seeing so many around here that I'm wondering if people really are willing to shell out the premium to own the latest and greatest.e

After taxes, rebate and incentive it's 32-33k. That's only expensive if you're shopping in the Corolla/Cobalt areana. That's only 3-5 thousand more than a nice 4 door sedan. DOes suck though that you have to finance the 40~k then wait till the end of the year to get your incentives and stuff. :p

After taxes, rebate and incentive it's 32-33k. That's only expensive if you're shopping in the Corolla/Cobalt areana. That's only 3-5 thousand more than a nice 4 door sedan. DOes suck though that you have to finance the 40~k then wait till the end of the year to get your incentives and stuff. :p
If you compare the car others in the same category, even with the incentive, it's 10 grand more or so. That's a lot of cash and you'd have to do a crazy amount of battery only driving to make up the difference. But it seems like people are still willing to do it and hopefully, as the technology gets better, Chevy can lower the cost and start making money. (Like Toyota was with the Prius, Chevy is losing money on every Volt sold.)

personally, I'd love to see some velomobiles on the streets here in the US. Talk about mpg or mpge!
I figure I get about 50 miles per burrito on my bike.

^ under $3 a gallon, and we're in the way.

$4/gallon and suddenly we're heroes and getting thumbs up everywhere.

^ under $3 a gallon, and we're in the way.

$4/gallon and suddenly we're heroes and getting thumbs up everywhere.

No, you're still getting ran over by big F350s racing down the exit ramp. :p God, I haven't seen that in a while.

With recent breakthroughs in battery charging/discharging the 1/2 a day - 1 day charge times will disappear making it possible to go to a meeting or work, plug your car in and then it's fully charged when you go home, be it 1-8 hours later.

I think the real money will be in coin-vending power outlets.

I think the real money will be in lockable power outlets.
You can have lockable power outlets patent. I get toll-power outlets patent.
Together we will rule the world.

If there were some kind of standardization battery-wise, some kind of system could be in place to quickly swap out the drained cells for charged ones...

This seems like the answer, and why wouldn't it be feasible? The station charges battery packs at the time of day of minimum usage, for minimum impact on the grid. You pull in, and some kind of automated engine hoist thingy lifts your old pack out, and drops in a freshly charged unit while you grab a Big Gulp. Off you go for another 300 miles, just as if you had filled the gas tank.

Once you give the station enough batteries to get started, you only need to replace the expired or damaged packs as them come in, so there is not a lot of transportation cost, as with hauling gas. If the electric station costs more to operate, then you simply need some economy of scale; replace three gas stations with one electric, so the cost per swap is lowered to a workable number.

What am I missing about that set-up that means it won't work? Wouldn't it make sense to invest now in better electric prodution here, than to keep buying oil from our not so friendly neighbors?

P.S. I thought this was Foo. I could swear I was in the "Living Car Free" forum.

While I'm not very interested in an electric car for myself (electric motorcycle is another story), what I'm most excited about is electric & hybrid vehicles driving advancements in battery technology. Bring it on!

http://www.brammo.com/

I've seen one of these electric bikes all painted up and with the Hong Kong Police. Makes sense around here.