Touring - Surly Troll vs. Kona Sutra

Hey all,

I'm in the market for a loaded-touring/adventure/commute bike and while the final choice isn't down to only the two in the topic, I would like to hear your opinions.

Obviously they are not entirely the same: 700 vs 26, complete vs frameset, and so on. But they are also closer to their MTB heritage: Discs, sloped toptubes, short-ish chain stays, similar wheelbase, &c. With the 2011 kona price increase I think I can outfit the troll comparably for about the same (could be wrong).

Though similar, the geometry isn't the same and I am certainly no expert on how these numbers affect stability, comfort, responsiveness and other attributes. Let alone loaded/unloaded, fully racked and fendered, with drops/flat bar (on the troll). My main question, then, how would riding either be different? If so, which is more suited for touring?

PS. 2010 Sutras and Fargoes are all sold out in my size and nobody was getting any more. I was told 2011 models won't arrive till April or thereabouts. At least in the NYC area.

Thanks for reading!

troll.

surly has a good track record on the bikes they bring to market...

plus its more versatile- wrt internal gear options etc.

my 2c

Things not to like:

Kona Sutra -- 30 small chain ring?? If you're going loaded anywhere besides the Great Plains, you'd want at least a 26 if not smaller.

Short chain stays -- hope you have tiny feet, or you'll have to deal with heel strikes on you panniers. Note the KS doesn't look that short, despite the verbiage, judging by the distance from the seat tube to the fender on the Kona web site picture.

Yes, the KS chainring choice is weird for the intended use. Troll has clearance for the standard MTB setup, though.

RE: short chain stays, somewhat of a concern but all I've come across says the length isn't a problem for most (this exact question was raised in an earlier thread: http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php/712047-Troll ).

Yeah, I had a 2009 Kona Sutra frame and I wasn't too happy with it. I built the bike, it wasn' even the stock bike. On my first longer tour a rear rack eyelet broke off. That happened to several people, it's really, really weak. Yes, the stays are too short for a touring bike. Plus, it's a 700cc frame, with 26" wheels it gets too low. If I were to chose between these two I'd go with the Troll.

Hey all,

I'm in the market for a loaded-touring/adventure/commute bike and..... I would like to hear your opinions.

700 vs 26, complete vs frameset, and so on. But they are also closer to their MTB heritage: Discs, sloped toptubes, short-ish chain stays, similar wheelbase, &c. ..........
Though similar, the geometry isn't the same and I am certainly no expert on how these numbers affect stability, comfort, responsiveness and other attributes. Let alone loaded/unloaded, fully racked and fendered, with drops/flat bar (on the troll). My main question, then, how would riding either be different? If so, which is more suited for touring?


Wow! Thats a REALLY loaded question! IF youwanted 700 wheels and planned on outfitting the Troll just like the Sutra - I`d say buy the Sutra. Personally I`d go for the Troll but probably my reasons would be completely different from yours.

For my personal tastes - there`s too much about the Sutra that I`d throw away if bought as a package. I`d personally much rather have a Brooks Professional saddle, and bullhorns with an aerobar than drop bars. I`m also not overly partial to disk brakes. Then there`s the racks - which are racks but certainly ain`t top quality, the tires wouldn`t be my first choice and the crankset isn`t ideal for touring. OK - I guess I`m saying that in either case =Ld probably start with a frame myself and the Sutra can be bought as a frame.

At which point it becomes - which would you rather have - 26in wheels or 700 series wheels?

I`m thinking that both frames can handle loaded touring, are built for it and the rest is a flip of a coin. The only major difference I see in the frame geometries is that the Sutra has a lower bottom bracket. That would give less ground clearance and less cornering clearance but only if you chose to stick 26in rims and narrow tires in it. A 60-559 (26 x 2.3in) tire would give no issues.

So when you weren`t touring - which one would you want to run around town on?

Thanks for the responses so far!

I dropped by the LBS to get a quote on what a Troll build-out would cost me and they mentioned there's a 2011 sutra in my size available. Said if I don't like it they'll just build up a Troll for me no problem. I put down the deposit and should have it in a week; we'll see where it goes from there.

Wasn't resolved to actually get anything today, but I'm not one for waffling about ;^)

Incidentally after I picked out the components I'd like on the Troll the price came out to same ballpark as the sutra with the added extra of having everything I want from the get-go. The downside is that I'd have to wait for the troll frameset to become available in my size after which the KS might disappear. As for the road triple on KS, they said I can always swap it out for lower geared rings if I don't like it.



For my personal tastes - there`s too much about the Sutra that I`d throw away if bought as a package

I understand that kind of knowledge comes with touring experience. I'm not there yet, though I will get a brooks saddle as it gets an almost unanimous must-get vote from anyone I ask. Other upgrades will come, as they are wont to do, with time.


So when you weren`t touring - which one would you want to run around town on?

Probably my squishy mountain bike, haha. Pothole season in NYC! (Plus it's hella cheaper to replace if it's ever stolen)

Just a suggestion - you`ll have some time to think things over before that Sutra actually shows up so it might be worth making a list and seeing what you can negociate.

Anything that comes off that bike BEFORE it leaves the store can be sold as NOS so if there are any components you want to upgrade - this is the best time to negociate. The dealer will be making money so he should be willing.

THINGS TO THINK ABOUT:
Those 700x28cContinentals are pretty skinny for touring tires and Schwalbe Marathon Supremes are a MUCH better tire anyway. Available in the same size but I`d go for 37-622 or 42-622 instead. Now you have a fast ride and a bit of suspension. Consider a trade-in.
And that Brooks saddle you already know about. See about a trade-in.
OK - its also possible (but less likely) that he`ll be willing to swap out that smallest chainring from a 30T to a 26T. It might be special order but you can ask.

I would never tour on road on a Troll. I don't think it's really even intended for that...the geometry is wrong, and 26s? Why? The very limited advantages of the little wheels just don't apply to touring.

The weak braze-on issue has been solved, so far as I know. It's worth noting, though, that I have one of the bikes that supposedly has this issue, and I've loaded it down with enough groceries to make the whole bike literally flex like a noodle - and this takes some doing on a bike built this stout - and have never had that issue. Anyways, get a Tubus Disco or something similar and it's a non-issue.

Short chainstays? lol? Yet more nonsense.

You're really comparing two bikes that are completely different, though. The Sutra is a touring bike. The Troll is a heavy mountain bike with braze-ons.

I wouldn't let a 30 tooth inner chainring be a deal breaker. Just about any shop can change that to a 24 in a matter of minutes.