Track Cycling: Velodrome Racing and Training Area - Japanese Keirn Question

adamfresno, most of your questions are answered above, but the one thing that's not addressed is how well the internationals go when they race the keirin circuit each year in Japan. Generally the guys you'd expect to do well do very well (ie Bos blew them away, Ng didn't do so well).

The keirin programs are aimed at fools. They have information like blood type (which susperstitious Japanese think determines character) and height and weight - as if they help you determine a likely winner.

I'm very tempted to bet myself - it's pretty easy to work out who will win. The only problem is races are fixed, and the Japanese gang up on the internationals who are doing well, so guys like Bos who should win every race because he can ride a 10 second 200 don't, and some local who can ride 10.7 wins instead.

Koichi Nakano is a great example of someone who can kick ass in foreign races

Japanese bike racing is open to any Australian rider who is good enough. None have been good enough.


None? Well please explain why Australian riders keep getting invited to Japan?

Open is a strong term to use describing the Japanese Kierans.

Ok, so Keirin is an Olympic sport, right. But here's what I don't get: how come the Japanese don't even place? You'd think they'd kick ass. Theories?

Japan has produced some great track riders for sure but the hardest part of winning a Kieran isn't making the final it's making the final with your team mate, just ask Garry Neiwand (Sydney 200).

Ceya: you got your stats wrong.... 1982 Gord Singleton(CAN), Danny Clark(AUS), then a Japanese rider in third.

Bostontrevor: It's not that difficult to get the approval if its built to spec. Chris Hoy and Craig Mclean both rode NJS approved Dolan's, All the frenchmen rode bikes built by Look, Curt Harnett rode an approved Gardin. Weather or not Theo's bike was built by Koga or not it was approved also.
I don't believe this is correct. AFAIK and according to Tomity, a Japanese keirin racer, there is NO carbon fiber on NJS approved bikes.

There are plenty of keirin videos on youtube. I've never seen one showing somebody riding a carbon fiber bike.

Keirin racing on the parimutuel circuit and keirin racing elsewhere (including elsewhere in Japan) are two completely different creatures. International keirin riders have a hard time adjusting to the parimutuel racing, plus the parimutuel riders tend to protect their own community. Top Europeans and Americans get to come in for exhibition events, which are rather different, and for non-parimutuel racing which is completely different. Those that race the parimutuel circuit do well after gaining some experience (some of the Aussies, some of the Dutch, and an occasional German or Frenchman).

The actual speeds in international keirin are higher, the races have very different tactics, and riders don't ride in support of each other. It's hard for the older league parimutuel keirin riders to succeed in international keirin at top levels, and the younger ones don't usually get a chance to race internationally.

They really are just two very different events, raced in very different ways. The difference in performance by nationality isn't surprising.

I don't believe this is correct. AFAIK and according to Tomity, a Japanese keirin racer, there is NO carbon fiber on NJS approved bikes.

There are plenty of keirin videos on youtube. I've never seen one showing somebody riding a carbon fiber bike.

As 11.4 mentioned there are exhibition matches in Japan where Americans/Europeans are invited to race against Japanese Keirin racers. The gaijin racers are typically riding bikes built by their sponsors that are certified by the NJS. I don't know if they are required to be steel but I have seen a one-off LOOK bike that was NJS certified (I'm unsure of the material).

The Japanese Keirin racers are required to use steel bikes, however I've heard that this may change next year.

As 11.4 mentioned there are exhibition matches in Japan where Americans/Europeans are invited to race against Japanese Keirin racers. The gaijin racers are typically riding bikes built by their sponsors that are certified by the NJS. I don't know if they are required to be steel but I have seen a one-off LOOK bike that was NJS certified (I'm unsure of the material).

The Japanese Keirin racers are required to use steel bikes, however I've heard that this may change next year.

There are different exhibition series, some that are more strictly NJS (but not governed strictly) and others that are anything-goes. The latter are more popular and increasing in number. In the former, riders get steel frames built by their sponsors and in the latter, carbon tends to rule (lots of KG496's, BT's, and the like). When you see European or Aussie riders in the parimutuel races, they are often riding NJS-approved frames that have simply been repainted and relabeled with their own sponsor names and colors. They've gotten various exemptions for things like stems (non-Japanese riders don't quite get the drop stem thing, not having ridden them since the old days of sloping steel Cinelli stems), as long as the stems are steel. Generally the European or Aussie riders aren't racing long enough to reach mandated frame replacement points (other than by crashing).

UCI World Cup track racing is very popular among cycling fans in Japan. Parimutuel keirin is more about betting than about bike racing -- it's like asking a typical bettor at a horsetrack about the characteristics of a particular horse (other than its winning history). But the exhibition and international races get people more interested in the bikes themselves and the racing, and World Cup events are televised. It's just hard for Japanese track riders to get the connections and sponsorship to end up on the UCI circuit. Each track World Cup event may have three or four Japanese riders but that's it, and it's clear that they don't get the training and racing experience that the leading teams get. It's about like having a team arrive from Sierra Leone.

There are different exhibition series, some that are more strictly NJS (but not governed strictly) and others that are anything-goes. The latter are more popular and increasing in number. In the former, riders get steel frames built by their sponsors and in the latter, carbon tends to rule (lots of KG496's, BT's, and the like). When you see European or Aussie riders in the parimutuel races, they are often riding NJS-approved frames that have simply been repainted and relabeled with their own sponsor names and colors. They've gotten various exemptions for things like stems (non-Japanese riders don't quite get the drop stem thing, not having ridden them since the old days of sloping steel Cinelli stems), as long as the stems are steel. Generally the European or Aussie riders aren't racing long enough to reach mandated frame replacement points (other than by crashing).

UCI World Cup track racing is very popular among cycling fans in Japan. Parimutuel keirin is more about betting than about bike racing -- it's like asking a typical bettor at a horsetrack about the characteristics of a particular horse (other than its winning history). But the exhibition and international races get people more interested in the bikes themselves and the racing, and World Cup events are televised. It's just hard for Japanese track riders to get the connections and sponsorship to end up on the UCI circuit. Each track World Cup event may have three or four Japanese riders but that's it, and it's clear that they don't get the training and racing experience that the leading teams get. It's about like having a team arrive from Sierra Leone.
I would think the big thing is money. There are Japanese keirin riders (like Shinichi Gokan) that approach $10 million in lifetime earnings. If you can make that kind of money racing in Japan screw the UCI. There's a reason the internationals are busting a gut to be invited each year. Nelson Vails said he used to make $30,000+ for 2 months work. That pretty much doubles a U.S. sprinter's income. ;)

I would think the big thing is money. There are Japanese keirin riders (like Shinichi Gokan) that approach $10 million in lifetime earnings. If you can make that kind of money racing in Japan screw the UCI. There's a reason the internationals are busting a gut to be invited each year. Nelson Vails said he used to make $30,000+ for 2 months work. That pretty much doubles a U.S. sprinter's income. ;)

Yup. The parimutuel directors want something to spice up interest in the racing (actually, in the betting), since parimutuel receipts have been dropping. Keirin betting tends to be the province of lower-income and older bettors, so it hasn't kept up with the larger economic trends in Japan. They throw in some international names, if only to promote the racing. The actual racing tends to be something of a closed shop, where it's hard for outsiders to get in and really excel -- it usually takes two or three trips before someone is accepted on the circuit. But the appearance and placing money is pretty decent for those who make it. The drawback is that it's such a tyrannical organization -- riders have to be out of contact with the world, have to spend days in seclusion prior to any racing, have to submit to training regimens of the track rather than their own programs. Plus, they have to race in rain, heavy wind, and all kinds of bad weather (bad lightning and typhoons are about the only things that postpone a race; I saw one raced a few hours after an earthquake that actually left cracks in the track, which angered a lot of bettors).

Benny K was just there along with T Boss. Benny K had a steel frame (look?) bike, it also had a steel threadless stem.

Also the tracks are covered in stick on sand so they can race in bad weather and still have grip.

The Keirin should be interesting next week here in Sydney, as they both have been training together here in Sydney since Japan. Mayeb they learnt something extra in Japan?

Not sure that they made the big $$ though, better money than normal but still nothing silly.

Pretty much everything has been addressed in this thread except one thing - Nakano wasn't very fast.

When he rode he only raced against other pros - and all the best riders were amateur.

If Nakano had to ride against the fastest riders of his day he would have been hard pressed to get top 10 in the world. He was a smart rider - but all the tricks in the book can't make a 10.6 rider beat a 10.1 rider (Hubner hadn't ridden his 9.9 when Nakano was riding).

So Nakano won 10 world championships while a rider who was nearly half a second faster than him - Gary Neiwand - won none.

So in fact, the Japanese have never been great at riding against internationals.

So Nakano won 10 world championships while a rider who was nearly half a second faster than him - Gary Neiwand - won none.
Neiwand won the sprint rainbow jersey in 1993.

Neiwand won the sprint rainbow jersey in 1993.

I stand corrected (I forgot - I thought he only won the keirin).

But anyway, Neiwand would have beaten Nakano by a bike length.

Thanks for all the great posts and links everyone! I just got through reading article in Procycling, Nov. 2007, on Keirin racing. Makes me wish I'd visited my daughter while she was going to school in Japan this year (Kyushu in Fukuoka).

Ok, so Keirin is an Olympic sport, right. But here's what I don't get: how come the Japanese don't even place? You'd think they'd kick ass. Theories?

Big differences are UCI keirin takes place on 250m tracks, Japanese Keirin races are on much much bigger tracks so banking isn't as much of an issue also they are paced by bikes not dernys and a world title probably doesn't earn you much extra case on the circuit in Japan.

All luck - er... not in any Keirin race I've seen, there's an element, but skill, tactics, speed, guts are the major playes :)

Big differences are UCI keirin takes place on 250m tracks, Japanese Keirin races are on much much bigger tracks so banking isn't as much of an issue also they are paced by bikes not dernys and a world title probably doesn't earn you much extra case on the circuit in Japan.

All luck - er... not in any Keirin race I've seen, there's an element, but skill, tactics, speed, guts are the major playes :)

Being way too pernickety, but UCI keirin doesn't only take place on 250m tracks. And second, luck plays a role in keirin - you can't always dictate what happens around you - crashes, switches, other rider's decisions play a major role. Pure speed is very important, but less important than in the sprint.

been reading a lot of your posts, oldsprinter, all very interesting. Is it fair to say that overall you have been quite disappointed with Japanese riders, past and present, and Keirin Japan?

There's much more teamwork in Japanese keirin. If you watch closely you will notice the nine racers are often organized in 'teams' of three or four - Senko, Makuri, Oikomi. Senko is the leadout. Makuri and Oikomi are 2nd, 3rd and/or 4th wheel. Senko leads out with 400-600m to go and avoids the crash carnage behind, usually. He depends on the others to physically defend his wheel until the final straight. In exchange for defending Senko the others get a nice draft until the very end.

In UCI keirin there are only 6 guys in the race and it's pretty much every man for himself. The Japanese have a hard time adjusting quickly to that.

been reading a lot of your posts, oldsprinter, all very interesting. Is it fair to say that overall you have been quite disappointed with Japanese riders, past and present, and Keirin Japan?

Yes, I guess you could say that - but then Japan has the wrong attitude when it comes to sport generally (with the exception of marathon running and judo). Like England they are too content with coming second.

I used to train with the Japanese team (I think I mentioned that at the start of this thread). They came to Australia to learn from the nation that was at the time the best in the world. But they carried on doing their own thing. The Japanese coaches forced the riders to do the old Japanese training - what was the point of training with us?

Now, I run, but again I see Japanese talent wasted. Some great runners are pushed too hard, burnt out early. They give up and get a job.

Keirin is holding good riders back. They need to go overseas, they need to focus on the team pursuit and Belgian kermesse racing - get some fast miles in the legs. Instead they're still up at 6am eating raw eggs and bowing to their 80 year old coaches.