Track Cycling: Velodrome Racing and Training Area - Japanese Keirn Question

Ok, so Keirin is an Olympic sport, right. But here's what I don't get: how come the Japanese don't even place? You'd think they'd kick ass. Theories?

from what i've heard, keirin is often very much like short-track speed skating in that it is largely a race of luck and strategy. lots of pushing/bumping/cutting off, and lots of opportunities to crash and lose your lead or gain the lead when others crash. or alternatively, a crappy place in the pack can ensure that you'll lose even if your legs are in better shape than others.

I don't see how a race can be both a race of luck and one of strategy. The two are sort of polar opposites. And if it were really a case of luck, then there wouldn't be much point in wagering on it. It would also make a really stupid Olympic sport. Olympic dice, anyone?

well, there is an element of good and bad luck in every sport. it just so happens that (if i'm correct) there is more luck involved in keirin. or more opportunity for good or bad luck determining your outcome.

and i don't think luck and strategy are polar opposites. what about poker or blackjack? you have to deal with the cards you're dealt, but there are obviously good poker strategies and bad ones.

The aspect of luck, and the possibility that anything can happen is the reason why keirin is such a huge betting sport in japan. there are obviously going to be favorites, riders who are simply faster than other riders, but there will still be the possibility that a longshot rider can sweep in and take the win.

To the first point, sure there is an element of luck in any sport, even one with the most deterministic rules: the luck that you won't break a bone, or suffer a brain fart, or get the hiccups, or whatever. As for the second, I maintain that they're polar or at least dialectical (!) opposites. Good strategy involves managing luck. The best poker players have an understanding, at least implicitly, of proabability. They play off that. The best strategies can be undone though by poor luck.

But the question remains: how come the Japanese do so poorly at Olympic Keirin? Are pro Keirin riders allowed to compete or only amateurs?

make sense to me.

as far as i know, the Japanese performance in the olympic keirin race was a huge dissapointment, which suggests that they were expected to do better, which in turn suggests that there is no immediately obvious answer to why they did so poorly.

They failed to place anywhere *near* the top in 2000 and 2004. That's more than just an anomaly. Interesting.

they make good money racing in japan. there's no money on offer in the olympics. they'd have to give up earnings to waste time in the olympics. it think it's more complicated, but its something like that.

Japanese Keirin is slightly different than Olympic Keirin.

1 - they don't use motorcycles to pace the riders. They use a Bicycles.
2- they don't jockey as hard as the Olympic. meaning they don't get to aggressive in the final 200 meters.
3 - When those strong in Japanese keirin do leave the Japanese version they can do outstanding

See Koichi Nakano
1986 Colorado Springs (usa) Koichi Nakano (jpn) Hidejuki Matsui (jpn) Nobuyuki Tawara (jpn)
1985 Bassano del Grappa (ita) Koichi Nakano (jpn) Yoshiyuki Matsueda (jpn) Ottavio Dazzan (ita)
1984 Barcelona (spa) Koichi Nakano (jpn) Ottavio Dazzan (ita) Yavé Cahard (fra)
1983 Zürich (swi) Koichi Nakano (jpn) Yavé Cahard (fra) Ottavio Dazzan (ita0
1982 Leicester (gbr) Koichi Nakano (jpn) Gordon Singleton (can) Yavé Cahard (fra)
1981 Brünn (czs) Koichi Nakano (jpn) Gordon Singleton (can) Keni Takahashi (jpn)
1980 Besançon (fra) Koichi Nakano (jpn) Mas. Ozaki (jpn) Daniel Morelon (fra)
1979 Amsterdam (net) Koichi Nakano (jpn) Dieter Bergmann (wge) Michel Vaarten (bel)
1978 München (wge) Koichi Nakano (jpn) Dieter Bergmann (wge) Yos. Sugata (jpn)
1977 San Cristóbal (ven) Koichi Nakano (jpn) Yos. Sugata (jpn) John Nicholson (aus)

They aren't leaving the sport in Japan for the masses outside.

S/F,
CEYA!

Ok, so Keirin is an Olympic sport, right. But here's what I don't get: how come the Japanese don't even place? You'd think they'd kick ass. Theories?

too many world class australian riders dont give anyone a chance e.g Ryan Bailey/Shane Kelly/Stuart O'Grady..........

G'day All, I second that, go the boys, take the gold and don't look back?
The Australians are just too good and the others don't get a look in?

Similar reason as why for years the USA did not win the basketball medals. Japanese Keirin racers are professionals and the best ones won't take time off from work to go to the olympics to win a medal. Also, I think they give up most of their personal freedoms to live like monks in dormitories. This is done to discourages race 'fixing'. A racer would require permission from the Keirin federation to go. They'll only give it if they get a formal request and I don't think any has ever been made. Of course, you may remember Kochi Nakano. He was wealthy enough and had enough influence within the Keirin federation that he took himself to the Track World's and won the Sprint Gold for a whole bunch of years in succession. I think it was like ten (10) years, but now as I write it it seems unbelievable, but it was a whole bunch. The last year though, he 'stole' it from Canadian Gord Singleton. He couldn't beat Gord so he put him down on the deck. The Japanese staff then ran circles around the Canadain team (with political tactics) to stave off out-right disqualification. So Gord was required to do a re-run of the last race, after he had cleanly won the first, but could not because of a dislocated shoulder. The 'win' was then awarded to Kochi. After that win Kochi retired and never came back to the World's. Still, though, his record is impressive, and for many years he was unstoppable. Gord retired too, in total disgust, and went home to manage his father's tire business in St. Catharines where he still is. If you're ever out riding in the Niagara region on the Canadian side, you could run into Gord out on a ride. Don't challenge him to a sprint though, unless you're really fast.

this is from the UCI official site :

" So why do the Japanese not dominate in the race they invented?
The Japanese Keirin has some significant differences to the international interpretation of this race. For a start, tracks there are banked less steeply than in most other places, and an all-weather asphalt surface permits Keirin racing in the rain, which would not happen at a world championship or world cup meeting. Furthermore, the approach of Japanese Keirin racers is to win as much money as they can all the time. This means staying at a high level of fitness for several months of the year. To reach the peak needed for success at the world championship would demand a recovery period afterwards, which would harm earning potential. So from the professional point of view, it makes no sense. One final significant difference is that in the Japanese Keirin, riders start the race lined out across the track. In the international version, they start in a single file along the track."

Another explanation..

http://www.roadcyclinguk.com/news/article/mps/UAN/414/v/5/sp/332657698911328285278

"At the World Championships in 1977, the sprint final at San Cristobal, Venezuela had a great face off between two Japanese keirin racers, Koichi Nakano and Yorikazu Sugata. Koichi Nakano won the championship and Sugata runner up. Nakano, who was the first Japanese rider to win a Sprint gold medal, was only 21 years old. He then set a new 'Lance-style' record by winning ten consecutive World Sprint victories. "

"These guy's are big stars in Japan and can earn Premiership footballer type salaries. Which might explain why they choose to mainly race in Japan and not ride in the less lucrative World Cups"

Edit: In the article, it says keirin racers are allowed to use only Japanese frame and components. It sounds like that's where NASCAR learned their way.

My understanding is that the Pro-Kieren riders are also sequestered during the season. Living in dorms and with little contact with the outside work. When Marty Nothstien was doing the Keiren in Japan he made crazy loot but was out of form when he left. Everything revolves around your fitness there.

Just what I heard....

It is all about the madison

I have read that the top Japanese Pros view the Olympics in the same way as American major league baseball players: kid stuff that ain't worth the time. Baseball sent minor league players to the Olympics. And Japan sent minor league bike riders to the Olympics.

Japanese bike racing is open to any Australian rider who is good enough. None have been good enough.

Furthermore, the approach of Japanese Keirin racers is to win as much money as they can all the time.

....what an amazing statement

Japanese bike racing is open to any Australian rider who is good enough. None have been good enough.

Absolute nonsense. I'm sure the Neiwands, Pates, Kellys, Dajkas etc of this world would be amazed at this statement, if they weren't busy counting the huge wads of cash they won when dominating the international Keirin series.

Non-Japanese manufacturers can produce NJS Keirin parts (for example the--now defunct?--NJS Campagnolo ensemble).

I have heard that it's ridiculously difficult to get the NJS stamp, that it was next to impossible to get a non-Japanese product approved, and that Campy spent a great deal of time and effort getting their stuff approved and that ultimately it wasn't worth it.

Japan is very careful to protect its national icons from gaijin influence.

I have read that the top Japanese Pros view the Olympics in the same way as American major league baseball players: kid stuff that ain't worth the time. Baseball sent minor league players to the Olympics. And Japan sent minor league bike riders to the Olympics.

Japanese bike racing is open to any Australian rider who is good enough. None have been good enough.



A major part of winning an Elite Keiran is getting two riders in the final.

Earth to alanbikehouston: Australians regularly ride in the Japanese Keiran's

My opinion, just ask Tomity.

The English invented cricket and football (and cycling) but they don't win everything.

I trained with the Japanese team for two years. They were:

too slow
resistant to change
trained through injury
were poor tacticians
refused to try new food
refused to try Western style massage
didn't spend long enough in the gym
didn't seem to want to win enough

Ceya: you got your stats wrong.... 1982 Gord Singleton(CAN), Danny Clark(AUS), then a Japanese rider in third.

Bostontrevor: It's not that difficult to get the approval if its built to spec. Chris Hoy and Craig Mclean both rode NJS approved Dolan's, All the frenchmen rode bikes built by Look, Curt Harnett rode an approved Gardin. Weather or not Theo's bike was built by Koga or not it was approved also.

Ceya: you got your stats wrong....



Bostontrevor: It's not that difficult to get the approval if its built to spec. Chris Hoy and Craig Mclean both rode NJS approved Dolan's, All the frenchmen rode bikes built by Look, Curt Harnett rode an approved Gardin. Weather or not Theo's bike was built by Koga or not it was approved also.


Where did you get yours? 10 yrs Nakano won.

Which sprint also? They had different sprints also.

Ok I found where you got your info.. He was 10 yr PRO Sprint , not Keirin .

Also look at my post and see point #3 and what I was responding to as to BostonTrevor's question..

-------------------------
1982 Leicester (GBR)

EVENT - DISTANCE TIME - 00:00.00 1st GOLD (NATION) 2nd SILVER (NATION) 3rd BRONZE (NATION)

PROFESSIONAL SPRINT 200-M ---- Koichi Nakano (JPN) Gordon Singleton (CAN) Yav� Cahard (FRA)

PROFESSIONAL KEIRIN ---- Gordon Singleton (CAN) Danny Clark (AUS) Turu Kitamura (JPN)


S/F,
CEYA!

I think Japanese athletes in general tend to do poorly at the Olympics. For such a wealthy country, they should rank up there with Germany and the USA. But looking at the medal count, that's never been the case.

Part of it is cultural. There seems to be an undercurrent of "You made it to the Olympics, that's good enough", and as a result I think many Japanese Olympic athletes don't really try to get gold. I mean, for Olympic gold you gotta give 110%, and maybe some athletes are only giving 98%. Also, Japan is such a Japanese-centric culture, and glory in the international arena is short-lived and doesn't mean that much to them (IMHO). Tis strange for a country so fanatical about sports.

Gord retired too, in total disgust, and went home to manage his father's tire business in St. Catharines where he still is. If you're ever out riding in the Niagara region on the Canadian side, you could run into Gord out on a ride. Don't challenge him to a sprint though, unless you're really fast.
And he still races at the Forest City Velodrome in London Ont where he holds the lap record. Yes he's still a great sprinter (2006 World masters champion) and regular winner at the FCV against many riders less than half his age. Just ask Caferacer in this thread! :eek:

I havent raced him in a few months but yes. There is only way I could beat him in a match. GO LONG! The guy has eyes on the back of his head. But thats why he's coaching me ;)

Ceya: The origional stats you posted I thought were for the Keirin, I just re-looked at see they're for the sprints. My bad! Theres video of that Keirin on youtube now. Its a rough one! Technicly It should say Singleton in first for the sprints also. Nakano purly won by default and because he in my opinion and others purposly crashed Singleton.

Gordo for Priminister!

Wow, this was a good thread. I just looked up Koichi Nakano's video's again Gordon Singleton on youtube (just type in 'Koichi Nakano' and you'll get all three rounds of that race). Brutal, brutal stuff. Awesome though.

What the hell was Nakano doing in the first heat? He passes Singo on the right, then looks over his right shoulder and moves down. He had him beaten anyway.

The crash in final race was Singleton's fault though. Too many people blame Nakano for that crash just because Singleton comes off worst out of it.

That must have been just about the only world championship ever won on a Suntour Superbe Pro equipped bike. (But not the only major race - the 1984 Olympic road race was won by Alexi Grewal on a Suntour equipped Pinarello).

Nakanos bike was:
Frame/fork: Nagasawa
Headset: Hatta (I believe)
Rims: Araya Super Aero
Spokes: 36 hole 3x (Hoshi?)
Hubs: Suntour Superbe Pro
Cranks, chainring, bb: Suntour Superbe Pro
Seatpost: Nitto
Bars/stem: Nitto
Toe clips: MKS
Seat: Kashimax Gold Star
Tyres: 20mm. Not Soyos. Maybe Panaracer?

The crash in final race was Singleton's fault though. Too many people blame Nakano for that crash just because Singleton comes off worst out of it.
Your country of origin say it all. Heck I wouldn't want to say who was at fault after seeing those races live on TV originally and watching these vid clips. None of us can see the racers head-on so we don't know what happened.

I ride on the same track as Gord and know him well but I wouldn't have an opinion, after watching the clips, as to who was in the right or wrong.

If you want to make your own mind up on the 1982 Nakano v Singleton sprint final click on the links below

Round 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OY78yS0sjbQ

Round 2/re-run
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzLdyxDSK2I

Round 3 - The final crash
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mx_5pQSWdRY

I have read that the top Japanese Pros view the Olympics in the same way as American major league baseball players: kid stuff that ain't worth the time. Baseball sent minor league players to the Olympics. And Japan sent minor league bike riders to the Olympics.

Japanese bike racing is open to any Australian rider who is good enough. None have been good enough.

Alan - you are a muppet. Top of the podium.

Gary Neiwand won the keirin circuit 3 times on a custom 3rensho.
http://www.fyxomatosis.com/images/news/rensho_big.jpg

Jobke Dajka has also done well there.

How's the view in cuckoo cloud land?

Gary Neiwand won the keirin circuit 3 times on a custom 3rensho.
If I spent enough time I'm sure I could come up with a few Brits who are "good enough" to race in Japan (McLean at the very least and for two seasons), some 'Merricans (didn't Nothstein race the Keirin circuit?) and maybe Canadian Harnett was there too. Plus there were probably a few Euros.

One resource says there are eight foreigners invited each year.

Every April foreigners race in Japan. Shane Kelly has also raced in Japan. Also Josiah Ng and many more.

Qualifying times to become a keirin racer are 1.10 for the kilo and 11 seconds for 200m. Those times are not that great.

Alan - you are a muppet. Top of the podium.

Gary Neiwand won the keirin circuit 3 times on a custom 3rensho.
http://www.fyxomatosis.com/images/news/rensho_big.jpg

Jobke Dajka has also done well there.

How's the view in cuckoo cloud land?

Mr White - that bike looks a little big for Gary. Did he have to ride it with the seat quite low?

Yes there are 8 international riders invited to race the keirin series each year. HOWEVER, they are invited to ride a special series for them and a number of selected Japanese riders, they do not ride in the general keirin series.
Those Japanese riders who ride against the internationals are not necessarily the best Japanese keirin riders. The best riders generally ride in the main circuit because that's where the bigger prizes are!

There may well be a change in attitudes from the Japanese riders regarding world/olympics in the next few years. Frederic Magne (from France, 3 times world keirin champ) has recently been appointed to the top coaching job in Japan on a long term contract (6 years?). He's had great success as track coach at the UCI sprint school in Aigle and insiders reckon he is already starting to make a difference over in Japan. Given that Japan has a huge pool of keirin riders for Magne to train and select from we could well be seeing Japanese riders starting to really challenge at world level in the next few years.
Will be interesting to see if it happens or not!

To answer the OP the keirin doesn't seem so different than other track disciplines. Japanese who ride it year-long don't have such an advantage - the strategy for positioning and attacking seems pretty much the same as other events.

Yes there are 8 international riders invited to race the keirin series each year. HOWEVER, they are invited to ride a special series for them and a number of selected Japanese riders, they do not ride in the general keirin series.
Those Japanese riders who ride against the internationals are not necessarily the best Japanese keirin riders. The best riders generally ride in the main circuit because that's where the bigger prizes are!

There may well be a change in attitudes from the Japanese riders regarding world/olympics in the next few years. Frederic Magne (from France, 3 times world keirin champ) has recently been appointed to the top coaching job in Japan on a long term contract (6 years?). He's had great success as track coach at the UCI sprint school in Aigle and insiders reckon he is already starting to make a difference over in Japan. Given that Japan has a huge pool of keirin riders for Magne to train and select from we could well be seeing Japanese riders starting to really challenge at world level in the next few years.
Will be interesting to see if it happens or not!

Richard, if you're the British rider I think you are, I know you know your track racing BUT, I have heard so often about these mythical "best riders" of keirin, some even say Nakano wasn't the best in Japan, but, if so, why haven't we seen them set world records, world Olympic sprint (team) records, kilometer records? They wouldn't even need to leave Japan - just go to the Kokura indoor wooden velodrome.

When the internationals ride in Japan (they now invite 9 riders) they face Japanese national team riders, guys like Toshinobu Saito (who can ride a 10.4 second 200m), Kojima Keiji (www.kojimakeiji.net), Ota Shin-Ichi, Keiichiro Yaguchi and Toshiaki Fushimi, and these guys are or were ranked in the top 15 in the world, a few much higher.

So the riders who can't be bothered taking two weeks out of keirin racing to go and win a world title or race against internationals - where are they? If they're better than guys who can get top 10 at the worlds, they must be mighty quick. Admittedly, Terufumi Sakakieda (10.7 - 200m), who is very quick, didn't ride the International series and Shinichi Gokan was a fast and canny rider - but I think, in general, the riders who line up against the internationals are the best, if not close to the best, in Japan.

I'm not saying I know the best riders don't race in the international scene - the keirin world here is hard to know well - but it would be a surprise to find more than 2 or 3 riders better than the ones who race (and beat) guys like Bos, Bayley and Neiwand.

And get_nuts at the risk of sounding like I'm disagreeing with everyone for the sake of it, I think the rigid structure of Japanese keirin racing holds Japanese riders back. Having to choose to ride senko,
makuri, oikona or mak and having to tell people what you will do, then doing this week in week out for months stops a rider being able to respond quickly when riding outside of Japan.

Whew! Rants over.

Mr White - that bike looks a little big for Gary. Did he have to ride it with the seat quite low?

On fyxomatosis.com, Mr.White says that that Rensho is currently set up for someone else. Gary doesn't ride the bike anymore hence the wonky setup.

Japanese keirin has some differences from International keirin that make it hard to succeed in both. Japanese keirin is raced on 400 meter tracks so the tactics are different. I think there is more collusion in japanese keirin whereas on the int'l circuit you're pretty much on your own with only 6 guys out there. Not to mention the japanese guys probably do okay just racing keirin; they don't really NEED int'l whereas the foreigners use int'l success to get invited to Japan so they can make money. The Japanese are already there.

this thread has been great

I raced in Japan twice at the Tokushima circuit.


It was Sports Day.


We rode one at a time & were timed in the 200m sprint, 1k & 2k.


Ignore everything I say. I'm a seppo.......

I raced in Japan twice at the Tokushima circuit.


It was Sports Day.


We rode one at a time & were timed in the 200m sprint, 1k & 2k.


Ignore everything I say. I'm a seppo.......

Times please.

By the way - that's pretty cruel making you ride a kilo, then making you line up for a 2km. I need about a year off the bike after riding a kilo. Horrible event.

[QUOTE=oldsprinter]Times please.[QUOTE]

Komatsushima track, sorry.
Did both of these on a buddies roadie. Just chose a big gear & wheeled with it.

2002:
200m = 14.41"
1k = cancelled due to rain
2k = 3'14.74"

2003:
200m = don't have time
1k = 1'24.41"
2k = 3'04.06"

Begin laughing & taunting me now............


ALso hit up the Shimano 'Suzuka' Road Race in 2004. Horrible results there...a little too much time in izakayas & sushiyas & not enuff on the bike.

Nothing wrong with a 1.24 on a borrowed road bike. And a 3 minute 2km after riding a kilo flat out is good going, too.

I almost took the mamacheri I rode to the track out for fun.
Times on that woulda REALLY sucked.

Great keirin pic : http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2007/mar07/wtc07/index.php?id=/photos/2007/mar07/wtc07/wtc072/IMG_1120

I have lived in japan and my wife is Japanese and I go all the time. When the olympics come around they go nuts for it. The Marathon, judo, ice skating etc...Anyone who wins gold will be a star and get fat endorsements deals. One of the best ping pong girls in the world is Japanese and she is always one TV. If a Keirin rider could win gold...he would be out there I think.

I may be wrong but the Japanese Keirin track is much bigger no? A few years ago I know all the top track cyclist from around the world did a Keirin tour in japan. I wonder how well they did on Nihon no turf. Someone know?