Commuting - LED Headlight Beam Comparision

I know this isn't scientifically accurate but here's what I did.
I just got a cateye EL500 and decided to compare the beam patterns of it against the lights I had with exposure lock. This was from about 10 ft away in a dark room.

I took the lights out and took some new pics here.
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=118880
I think sign on the road is about 50 ft away.

This is the Cateye EL200 blinker. It's 3 white LED's and can be set to blink or steady. I had it on steady.

This is the new Cateye EL500 with a 1 Watt Luxeon LED and some pretty nice optics to throw the beam.

This is an old Specialized Astro 2.4 halogen light. It uses 4 AA batteries and runs 6V at approximately 4 Watts.

And this is my Light & Motion Dual (which is currently broken, the low beam doesn't work) with the high beam running 10.8V @ 16 Watts halogen.

here is my light 35 watts a high end halogen mr16 bulb running at 12v this is at about 20 feet or more from the source.

very cool thread, if only I had a digital camera

milo

Yep, I wish we had a sticky thread where we could accurately compare different lights.

Maybe a darkroom test of some sort....multi-color box at 12 feet or such, so we can somehwat accurately compare.

I know my cateye 3-led headlamp is decent, but my niterider is far better...and my cateye 110 is not even worth the light of day really.

Great thread - and seasonal, since everyone is thinking about lights at the moment.

I mentioned in a recent thread that I replaced the stock 2.4W halogen bulb used in a Cateye HL-1600 with a 4.2W version. This was partly because I was fed up paying an outrageous £4.99 each for new bulbs - the higher power version was available for around £1.30! There is also notable improvement in light output. I will try and get some pics.

Cheers,

Ed

I know this isn't scientifically accurate but here's what I did.
I just got a cateye EL500 and decided to compare the beam patterns of it against the lights I had with exposure lock. This was from about 10 ft away in a dark room.

What camera, focal length, fstop, shutter speed and iso did you use? This would let others try and match the test somewhat.

Al

What camera, focal length, fstop, shutter speed and iso did you use? This would let others try and match the test somewhat.

Al

If only I knew, it's an old Kodak DC5000, still the only shock and water resistant digicam I know of at the consumer level. 2.1 megapixels, I exposure locked it to the original pic.
When I get a better camera, I'll go out to an actual road when it's dark and take some pics.
But still, if someone uses a common light such as the EL200 or something that almost everyone has or should know someone who has one and use that as the basis for comparision, you can get a pretty good idea of how other beams are.

If only I knew, it's an old Kodak DC5000, still the only shock and water resistant digicam I know of at the consumer level. 2.1 megapixels, I exposure locked it to the original pic.
When I get a better camera, I'll go out to an actual road when it's dark and take some pics.
But still, if someone uses a common light such as the EL200 or something that almost everyone has or should know someone who has one and use that as the basis for comparision, you can get a pretty good idea of how other beams are.
No problem, I just figured that if a camera could exp. lock, that the it at least would tell ya what the settings are. Overall a nice comparision you did!
Al

you got a pick of any o them new cateye blinkies?

you got a pick of any o them new cateye blinkies?

I thought the EL500 WAS the new cateye light.

sight is not a good thing to use. because the color of the beam can throw your judgment off. a slightly blue cast liek from HID lights or the one I posted make the light look brither then it is.
you need to measure the lumens and beam shape to knwo what is what. I know fellows who ahve the tools and have done it. they are on a email list if anyone is interested.

I have a 12w HID, and also about 30 watts of halogen light.

The HID is fine.

The halogen light is MUCH better.

Either one is well out of the LED league. LED's are, today, nice for flashy's, but are not at parity with other solutions. I'm not sure why this is at issue. It's pretty obvious, once you get on the trail. I had an LED guy stop me just last night (the brightest one I'd ever seen - El500?) and ask, what is your light? I WANT one.

i was talking about the new rear red blinkie... those above are not blinkies.

Either one is well out of the LED league. LED's are, today, nice for flashy's, but are not at parity with other solutions. I'm not sure why this is at issue. It's pretty obvious, once you get on the trail.

Trail? This thread is in commuting, not mountain biking. :D There should be a sticky "light religion" thread where people can take their
"my light is the only true light" babbling. (Not to mention a "frame religion" thread for some of the steel zealots. Begone ye zealots!
Shoo! Shooo, I say!)

Here's some more comparisons from Chris. He started the Geek-light thing about the same time I did and then decided to develop hi-powered LEDs.

http://www.solidlights.co.uk/features/bright.php

Here's some more comparisons from Chris. He started the Geek-light thing about the same time I did and then decided to develop hi-powered LEDs.

http://www.solidlights.co.uk/features/bright.php

The 10 watt LED unit runs the battery dry in 1 hour 20 min and costs $US 500.

I can get a HID that is not only brighter but runs for up to 4 hours for around $500.

Still pretty cool that it's LED and doesn't have the problems associated with HID's I guess.

I have a 12w HID, and also about 30 watts of halogen light.

The HID is fine.

The halogen light is MUCH better.

Either one is well out of the LED league. LED's are, today, nice for flashy's, but are not at parity with other solutions. I'm not sure why this is at issue. It's pretty obvious, once you get on the trail. I had an LED guy stop me just last night (the brightest one I'd ever seen - El500?) and ask, what is your light? I WANT one.

Why do people have this fear of inferiority that they always have to brag about their lights?
This isn't the "i have the brightest light" thread otherwise I'd have one of those 1 billion candle power stadium HID's that can illuminate a spot on the road for a solid MILE and sucks up kilowatts.
This is for commuting, seen and/or be seen. Pick any one or a combination of both. That's all.
Not bombing downhill at 30mph in the dark.

I like the way that one company (I forget now) did their beam comparisons outdoors on the same trail. Basement
beamshots are a bit out-of-place, though. Try some in the same spot outdoors. It's pretty hard to compare
the lights that are wildly different, since the camera responds so much differently than the human eye, but
the UK(?) company's website with shots of the umpteen lights on the same trail was pretty interesting nevertheless, with high quality pictures.

"That one company" would be German Lupine. I'll re-post their URL once more for reference:

http://www.lupine.de/en/produkte/leuchtvergleich.php

--J

I was told by an engineer: Watts=Volts X Amps. Using this formula, I use a 6w halogen bulb in an older Union headlight. 6V GelCel battery rated at 5Amp-Hours. Cold weather shortens my battery run time but it still gets me a safe 3.5-4 hours of decent light. My setup is fairly fixed by the formula. A 10w halogen is brighter but will run my battery down quicker. A better battery is possible....at a much higher cost.

I personally like all of the arguments about the bicycle lighting issue hoping it will lead to better batteries, brighter and more efficient bulbs, and better focused optics (reflectors). To all who are inventors....Keep up the good work!

Best comparison of lights I have found is at

http://www.mtbr.com/reviews/lights/index_byrating.shtml


A more controlled example of light test:
http://www.mtbr.com/spotlight/lightshootout/


Huff

LED Front Lights: Cateye EL500 v. Planet Bike Super Shot

I recently picked up a Cateye EL500 front light (one 1 watt LED). Last year I got a Planet Bike Super Shot (one 1 watt LED) to use on brevets as a secondary light to a Cateye Micro-halogen HL-500II. Here's my observation about the differences between the two LED lights.

I shined the Cateye EL500 and the Planet Bike Super Shot on a white wall in a dark room. The Cateye has a very bright center spot that is 1/2 or less of the total illumination angle of the EL500. The total illumination angle of the Cateye EL500 is about 1/2, or less, of the total illumination angle of the Planet Bike. In addition, outside its bright small spot the Cateye is less bright than the wide angle illumination of the Planet Bike. The wide angle illumination of the Planet Bike light is generally pretty uniform, except for several (6-8?) distracting line shadows that are cast in the forward direction.

Overall, I can't say that one light is significantly better than the other. They just do different things.

I like wide angle illumination for commuting because I think it helps cars on cross streets see me coming. Also, my road surfaces are pretty predictable and my commute is in-town with a fair bit of ambient light, so I can get by without having alot of direct illumination on the road. For these conditions, I'd lean toward the Planet Bike for its brighter wide angle illumination. (I also like it as a secondary for my brevet riding to complement the bright spot beam of my Micro-halogen light.)

But if you need to see the road surface, or if you think a bright narrow beam gives better visibility than a wider dimmer light, then the Cateye would be the way to go.

From what I read at other web sites, both lights use the same 1 watt LED. If that is correct, the differences are mainly in their optics.

good thread. i will post a picture when i get that new cat eye led system that i ordered. http://www.cygolite.com/light/products/14HiFlux200.htm

I live in an inner city neighborhood, with lots of traffic, lots of restaurants, bars, shops, and enough lights to look like a "Little Las Vegas". To be noticed in my area, the issue does not seem to be brightness, it seems to be that a light must be annoying.

I have tested my lights by parking my bike with the lights on, and standing a hundred feet away where a driver would be. A fairly bright steady headlight is simply lost in the urban clutter. But, my new SIGMA TRI-LED blinking light is easy to notice. It pulses erratic blasts of intense light at on-coming drivers. They are often annoyed enough to flash their bright lights at me.

And, a "photo" comparison of lighting system is unlikely to convey to "annoyance" factory. Gotta get out on the street and look at the bike from a driver's point of view. Then ask: will this particular light truly annoy and upset a driver who is about one hundred feet away?

I use the NiteRider Digital Evolution. I WILL NEVER GO BACK TO LED HEAD LIGHTS!!!! I commune to school and my girl friend’s place; I do about 140 miles a week, about 15 miles at night. It is about $230, but the 15w I am not hit with other drives blights anymore. I use a highway to get to my girl friends; you get a lot of light when using this system. It’s a handle bar and helmet mount, and if your using the handle bar mount there is a remote switch, so you don’t have to take you hand off the handle bar to change the light setting.

good thread. i will post a picture when i get that new cat eye led system that i ordered. http://www.cygolite.com/light/products/14HiFlux200.htm

Please do, that light looks very interesting.

annoying is important. thats why I got a big headlight it is a 12v 20 watt mr16 bulb. and if I relaly need light I overvolt it to 16v and man it is so bright. Plus I have a 3 bulb LED headlight for the annying part.

you got a pick of any o them new cateye blinkies?

The new cateye TL LD 1000 ten LED tailight compared to other lights side by side. It's a good light.


http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=68186&page=2&pp=25&highlight=Cat+eye+light

Reminder here...Don't just shine a light in the garage and go o-wow. Instead...consider your speed and the amount of reaction time needed and that's amount of throw your light must have. The beam pattern should illuminate real stuff like a tipped over can, pot holes, a skunk. etc.

So... if you're traveling at 15mph that's about 22' per second. To respond to a pot hole, you may need like 3 seconds. In this case the light should have a throw of 22' * 3 = 66' ...my guess is a 75' throw is probably minimum.

================================================================
My speed* 5280 /3600 (seconds per hour) = # of feet I'm traveling per second

Multiple skunks require a wide beam as well. Wider and brighter than any LED light. :(


Do not slow down to look at the skunks. :rolleyes: Keep moving...trust me. :(

Reminder here...Don't just shine a light in the garage and go o-wow. Instead...consider your speed and the amount of reaction time needed and that's amount of throw your light must have. The beam pattern should illuminate real stuff like a tipped over can, pot holes, a skunk. etc.


Hear, hear. Our local bike shops tend to demonstrate lights in two ways: they either let you try it out in a darkened storage room, or they shine it right at your eyes, followed by an "Impressive, eh?". Both ways are impressive. That is how my first (el cheapo) light was sold to me. After riding a couple of nights with it I realised that what is impressive in a dark room is not very impressive on the street in a dark, rainy September night.

For me, the best way to shop for lights is to take my current light with me to the shop. I can put that beam in context and I know why I'm not happy with it, so it's relatively easy to compare it to a new light's beam and see if the new one is any better.

--J

The best headlight in on the market is the E6 as used with a Schmidt Hub Dynamo. I got mine last week ($500 package), and it's already shown it's value after some drunk dressed in all black threw himself in front of me on a dimly lit street last Thursday night. I saw him well in advance (any other light i've ever used, including the 12W nightpro would have struggled to pick him up at all) and made the biggest swerve you've ever seen. I had time to give him such a wide berth, he couldn't even run and get across in front of me (he tried to).

Next stop, a night-time century ride. I don't have to worry about batteries either, and the generator causes no noticeable drag on the front wheel.

Don't worry Chris. Your solution will be dissed because:

1. It only uses a 3W bulb/globe.
2. It is run by a dynamo.
3. In America, bigger is ALWAYS better, and any opinion posted that runs in the face of that opinion doesn't count.
4. Americans believe they have a mortgage on technology and that Europeans (or anyone else in the world, including the Japanese) don't know a thing, especially about refined optics.
5. Disposability (dead batteries going to landfill) is not a problem, along with using resources to recharge batteries.
6. Generating power for the light through a dynamo will slow you down much more than a pack of batteries ever will.
7. Your solution is way, way too expensive.
8. You have presented no scientific contribution to this thread by using a drunk dressed in black as your only premise for saying your lighting solution is the best.
9. Your argument is further diluted by the fact that the light obviously was not obvious enough to the drunk, and therefore was ineffective in an urban environment (ie, it wasn't annoying enough to be noticed).
10. This is a commute forum. Why are you mentioning in long-distance riding in your post?

You and I both know differently. But I just thought you should reconsider the content of your post.

Wow Rowan, :rolleyes:

regarding your argument #3, the Schmidt dynohub is one of the biggest and heaviest hubs on the market.

I recently got the Busch & Müller bottle dynamo and the Lumotec light. After some testing I am convinced that the 3w/6V light is enough for my riding, so I am planning to upgrade to a dynohub. Maybe add a secondary, narrow beam headlight wired to switch on in speeds over 20 km/h.

--J

Juha

You know exactly what I am talking about because you are European...

The hub weight question is another that I should have included. Take your current front hub, plus the weight of the B&M dynamo (which I also have, an S6), plus the dynamo mounting hardward and weigh together. Then do the same with the weight of a batch of batteries and the front hub. The weight difference becomes minimal. The only thing the real weight weenies would dispute is the rotational weight of the hub. And this, after all, is a commute forum.

FWIW, I have several bikes I use for commuting. One is used for touring and randonnees. The touring/randon bike is so well set-up that I use it mostly for commuting. It is equipped with a SON, an Ovalplus Senso (love it, no switching to worry about), and an E6 secondary. The Ovalplus has the distinct advantage of a standlight (and that is the only weakness with the E6). The E6 I switch on over about 12km/h when I need to. It's brilliant downhill at 65-70km/h. It makes motor vehicle drivers dip lights one kilometre away. The S6 and another Ovalplus are also on the bike because of rando rules requiring a back-up system.

The other bikes use old Cateye HL-500 halogens. Not bad lights for the money I originally paid four years ago. But they are not a patch on the Ovalplus or E6. I would only use them for commuting. Globes/bulbs are becoming harder to source here.

Finally, believe it or not, there is another solution... use the E6 for its optics, but connect it to a battery pack that puts out 6V. NiCads and NiMh batteries seem quite well advanced, and can be put together as a pack to power a good quality light such as an E6. The E6 and Ovaplus and so on don't have to be powered by a dynamo or SON -- so long as the battery output is 6V, they are fine to go.

And finally, to add a bit more technical stuff (although for some it might a bit hard to grasp), the longevity of rechargeable batteries depends on their amp-hour rating. A good electronics shop should have a range of rechargeable batteries that can go up to 2000 mAhr rating. The higher the rating, the longer the light will last for a given wattage.

Then there is the charger question. A good "smart charger" will ensure batteries will last much, much longer. Even a simple timer than plugs into the socket will help do this for a basic charger (as supplied with most commercial and expensive battery lighting systems).

I'm not an expert (heaven forbid), but I have been through the mill... SLAs, NiCads, sidewall dynamos, hub generators, halogen, even LEDs. LEDS still have a long way to go despite Cateye's attempts to improve optics. The firewall for "white" LEDs seems to be heat.

The best headlight in on the market is the E6 as used with a Schmidt Hub Dynamo. ...

Chris, have you ever used battery based systems to give a personal experience comparison of your hub driven light to the battery powered ones?

I'm currently using a cygolite HID and a NR digital evolution 15/10/6w. I find that the NR throws more usable light on the dark rural roads at the 15w setting, but burntime is pathetic at 15w setting (I get about an hour in temps between 15 & 25F. 10w gives 1:20 min and 6W goes at least 2:00. The HID gives more usable light than the 10w setting and lasts longer. Right now I'm using them both. If I'm out too long (only happened once) my HID battery dries up (this was after 3.5 non-continuous hours in sub 20F temps) and I had to rely on the NR to get me home. I only put it on 10W because I was about an hour from home. 6W is suitable for about 10 mph. 10W for about 12-15. 15W 15-20 (if you know the road). I think the HID is good for 15-17mph.

I am curious about hub driven lights and the speeds that feel safe with the lights. I've been thinking of doing more night riding since the timing just works better for me to ride at night, but I'm a little nervous about running out of juice.


... This is for commuting, seen and/or be seen. Pick any one or a combination of both. That's all. Not bombing downhill at 30mph in the dark.

If your commute does not involve bombing downhill at 30 mph in the dark, you should obviously change your commuting route so that it does. ;)

edit: BTW, I weighed my lights/batteries and the weight of both lights and both batteries is just over 5 lbs. I didn't weigh them separately, but the NR battery is lighter than the cygolite battery.

Chris, have you ever used battery based systems to give a personal experience comparison of your hub driven light to the battery powered ones?

I think Chris has been a battery guy up to now. He stated a comparison in his post, if you read beyond the first phrase, like....

(any other light i've ever used, including the 12W nightpro would have struggled to pick him up at all)

Read first, post later.

Hear, hear. Our local bike shops tend to demonstrate lights in two ways: they either let you try it out in a darkened storage room, or they shine it right at your eyes, followed by an "Impressive, eh?". Both ways are impressive. That is how my first (el cheapo) light was sold to me. After riding a couple of nights with it I realised that what is impressive in a dark room is not very impressive on the street in a dark, rainy September night.

For me, the best way to shop for lights is to take my current light with me to the shop. I can put that beam in context and I know why I'm not happy with it, so it's relatively easy to compare it to a new light's beam and see if the new one is any better.

--J

Most of these bike guys haven't tried every light on the shelf and they don't know your riding style, speed and conditions. So another good way to shop is to know the footage needed and pace off that many steps from the LBS door. Then take ask the shop if you can shine the "hallowed, bigger better do-dad" out the door at night. See what shows up.

I think Chris has been a battery guy up to now. He stated a comparison in his post, if you read beyond the first phrase, like....

(any other light i've ever used, including the 12W nightpro would have struggled to pick him up at all)

Read first, post later.

So in that one situation his hub powered light was better. What were the conditions, his riding speed etc. When riding slow (like 5 mph up a steep hill) does the hub generate enough power to produce enough light? Does he use a battery backup?

I got that he likes the hub better and gave an example of how it was better in one situation. I was asking for a comparison to battery power in a more general sense. Now, how do you add someone to your ignore list?

The best headlight in on the market is the E6 as used with a Schmidt Hub Dynamo. I got mine last week ($500 package), and it's already shown it's value after some drunk dressed in all black threw himself in front of me on a dimly lit street last Thursday night. I saw him well in advance (any other light i've ever used, including the 12W nightpro would have struggled to pick him up at all) and made the biggest swerve you've ever seen. I had time to give him such a wide berth, he couldn't even run and get across in front of me (he tried to).

Next stop, a night-time century ride. I don't have to worry about batteries either, and the generator causes no noticeable drag on the front wheel.

Impressive...Hey if you swerved a drunk, he probably thought he was throwing himself in front of a car.

So in that one situation his hub powered light was better. What were the conditions, his riding speed etc. When riding slow (like 5 mph up a steep hill) does the hub generate enough power to produce enough light? Does he use a battery backup?

I got that he likes the hub better and gave an example of how it was better in one situation. I was asking for a comparison to battery power in a more general sense. Now, how do you add someone to your ignore list?
And read my original post. I dealt with the diss-list there. You asked a simple question about Chris' previous experience with battery powered lights. I gave a simple answer. By the way, 5mph is fine for generating enough light to see by. Pity about that ignore button. But it is said ignorance is bliss.

Don't worry Chris. Your solution will be dissed because:

1. It only...
3. In America...
4. Americans believe...
7. Your solution is way, way too ...
8. You have presented no scientific..
9. Your argument is further diluted by...
10. Why are you...
...you should reconsider the content of your post.

uh OK! Slightly toxic...and don't forget he's a mod too

Yes vrkelly. We also know each other quite well, personally and through several forums. And Chris would know my "toxicity" (like that term, but really it should be sarcasm) was not aimed at him.

So in that one situation his hub powered light was better. What were the conditions, his riding speed etc. When riding slow (like 5 mph up a steep hill) does the hub generate enough power to produce enough light? Does he use a battery backup?

Been away from this for a couple of days, but just in answer to your question (s), yes, I have used battery powered lights before -- several different nightpro types, Vistalite and one or two others prior to that. Initially I'd been quite satisfied with Nightpro, but I wanted longer "battery life" initially, however, I think even the nightpro lights I've used in the past would have struggled in this situation. Even if they had been enough, I'd have got one hell of a scare out of it.

As far as the speed/power issue goes, it's full power down to about 10 or 11km/h, however, it's still pretty good down to 8km/h. Bear in mind here, that as you go slower, the amount of light you actually need diminishes. I did an experiment of walking the bike in a dark rainforest last week, and it provided quite enough light for travelling at that speed. However, if you're considering this option, a small battery back-up could be useful for when you're stopped at traffic lights and such.

However, if you're considering this option, a small battery back-up could be useful for when you're stopped at traffic lights and such.

And, as stated by Rowan earlier, some of the hub/bottle dynamo lamps have a led that switches on when there's no power from dynamo. I have the Lumotec Oval Senso Plus (with the led), and the only thing that I find somewhat irritating about it is that the on/off switch has no effect on the led. So when I arrive to the grocery store and lock my bike up, the led stays on for about 7-8 minutes. I have already had people tell me "you forgot your light there". I don't like it because it draws attention to the parked bike. Other than that, it's an impressive light.

--J

And, as stated by Rowan earlier, some of the hub/bottle dynamo lamps have a led that switches on when there's no power from dynamo. I have the Lumotec Oval Senso Plus (with the led), and the only thing that I find somewhat irritating about it is that the on/off switch has no effect on the led. So when I arrive to the grocery store and lock my bike up, the led stays on for about 7-8 minutes. I have already had people tell me "you forgot your light there". I don't like it because it draws attention to the parked bike. Other than that, it's an impressive light.

--J

I tread very carefully lest I offend anyone, and the person I least want to offend is Juha...

These lights (the Lumotech Ovaplus variants and E6 variants) do NOT DEPEND on hub/dynamo electricity generation to operate. They are quite happy to be operated by a 6-volt battery system (an SLA or a series of AAs or even AAAs equivalent to 6 volts), and the standlight operates from an capacitor that stores power from whatever source is feeding it.

I accept Juha's point about the standlight continuing to operate well after getting off the bike because of the capacitor. But then, if confronted with the same well-meaning persons, I am secure in the knowledge that it's not running down the battery like car headlights would... because I AM the battery.