Touring - Production Touring Bikes Leave a Lot to be Desired

Brakes for a start, plus comfy ride, super-low gears & the option to mount Rohloff/Gates. I'm currently riding a Novara Randonee (now discontinued AFAIK).

On rough city streets & bike paths the ride is harsh. Rode a loaded tour on the Blue Ridge Parkway & the Shimano cantilever brakes couldn't even stop me going down the final hill during misty weather, I actually had to ride onto the runaway truck ramp.

I've owned a Japanese touring bike & Cannondale T400 in the 80's & gave both of those up since they wouldn't permit fitting fatty tires (40-50 mm) with fenders to give a comfy ride. Replaced those with an 80's Specialized Rockhopper converted to drop-bars: super-smooth ride & plenty of tire clearance but the handling/position was sort of front-heavy & twitchy.

So I've been doing a lot of research & it's really disappointing to see the high prices & poor selection of sensibly-spec'd touring bikes. IMHO disc brakes should be a must & why not go for hydraulic to reduce hand fatigue going down mountains in cold wet weather? Long wheelbase & fork rake for comfort: one shouldn't have to mount slow fat tires to make up for design deficiencies. Drop bars a must, they were standard for decades on quality touring bikes for decades for good reason.

Going further, I'd like to see a production touring bike with a Rohloff/Gates option. Slight efficiency loss with the Rohloff but wow, no worries about how to clean a dirty chain or derailer on tour or at home. My Randonee came with inadequate low gears, replaced the cassette with a 12-32 & the crankset with the Sugino XD 26/36/48 & still couldn't spin up the grueling Blue Ridge climbs.

I've only gone on 2-day tours & I can just imagine the difficulty of cleaning/lubing chain/derailer on longer tours. Jeez, my "needs" are simple: disc brakes/drop bar/tire clearance/559 mm wheels/S & S couplers/nice frame design & tubes/Rohloff/Gates. Co-Motion Pangea fills the bill at a mere $6400! Doesn't include medical insurance for heart attacks after the thing is stolen.

I don't feel that I'm asking for the impossible. $200 Walmart bikes have disc brakes; several nice production commuter bikes also but no drop-bar. Some disc-equipped cross bikes but with tighter wheel clearances. German & Dutch tourers are into Rohloff/discs and sometimes Gates but they love flat bars, those bars give me wrist pain on longer rides.

I must give kudos to Salsa/Surly for making an effort. Considered the Salsa Fargo (disc brakes) but no S & S nor 559 mm wheel option; Surly Long Haul Trucker Deluxe offers the nice S & S couplers along with 559 mm wheel for air travel & tire options (seriously thinking about this) but no discs nor Rohloff/Gates compatibility. A rough calculation of what a production touring bike with such components would cost runs to about $3500. Pricey but comparable to production racing bikes that push $5000 with less technology.

OTOH I have to admit that touring bikes are a tiny market segment. I've toured in world-famous spots like the Blue Ridge Mountains, Eastern Shore (Delaware/Maryland/Virginia) & saw zero other tourers in the mountains & only one couple riding on the Eastern Shore.

Niche market. Probably less than .25% of the total bike market, if even that much.

Thorn makes Rolhoff ready bikes, not sure about the Gates drive yet. That is still an emerging technology. Discs I can see, but I have ridden without them for years without any major issues. Best tour bike I ever had was a 1976 Bob Jackson Super Tourist.

Aaron :)

I have to say that I wouldn't actually even want the bike you pine for. I suspect that I am not alone and as a result there just isn't enough demand. I tend to agree that touring bikes are geared too high, but the fat tires, gates belt, Rohloff, and disk brakes don't interest me.

Not quite your blue sky requirements but Civia (part of the QBP fleet of bikes along with Surly and Salsa) offers two tour capable belt drive capable bikes. I think they might be 26" tire capable too but since 26" tires have no sway for me, I never look for that feature. Touring bikes are so different for each of us. I don't think production bikes leave that much to be desired. But my needs are different. Your statement is should say they leave a lot to be desired for "you". I see the LHT with S&S and 26" wheels as a step backwards - I thought the Traveler's Check was better and wish I could have gotten one while possible. I looked into S&S couplers and considered having a bike built with them but for my needs, they really aren't required and wouldn't help me much in my travels. Things could change....
Check with Peter White Cycles and his line of tourers from Tout Terrain. Cheaper than Co-Motion but still pricey but most of what you want is there.

What you deem necessities, others deem unnecessary. What works for you is a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of what is demanded by the cycling public. I'm afraid that unless a couple of ten thousand people see things exactly your way, you're stuck with building up a custom bike. Manufacturers make money either by high prices or high volume.

funny, they have everything I desire.

DropBarFan, just how many 2-day tours have you been on? You seem to have strong opinions on deficiencies in touring bikes for someone who has only done 2-day tours and does a lot of theorising.

Most people's needs are far less than yours.

MO.

Brakes for a start, plus comfy ride, super-low gears & the option to mount Rohloff/Gates. I'm currently riding a Novara Randonee (now discontinued AFAIK).

On rough city streets & bike paths the ride is harsh. Rode a loaded tour on the Blue Ridge Parkway & the Shimano cantilever brakes couldn't even stop me going down the final hill during misty weather, I actually had to ride onto the runaway truck ramp.

I've owned a Japanese touring bike & Cannondale T400 in the 80's & gave both of those up since they wouldn't permit fitting fatty tires (40-50 mm) with fenders to give a comfy ride. Replaced those with an 80's Specialized Rockhopper converted to drop-bars: super-smooth ride & plenty of tire clearance but the handling/position was sort of front-heavy & twitchy.

So I've been doing a lot of research & it's really disappointing to see the high prices & poor selection of sensibly-spec'd touring bikes. IMHO disc brakes should be a must & why not go for hydraulic to reduce hand fatigue going down mountains in cold wet weather? Long wheelbase & fork rake for comfort: one shouldn't have to mount slow fat tires to make up for design deficiencies. Drop bars a must, they were standard for decades on quality touring bikes for decades for good reason.

Going further, I'd like to see a production touring bike with a Rohloff/Gates option. Slight efficiency loss with the Rohloff but wow, no worries about how to clean a dirty chain or derailer on tour or at home. My Randonee came with inadequate low gears, replaced the cassette with a 12-32 & the crankset with the Sugino XD 26/36/48 & still couldn't spin up the grueling Blue Ridge climbs.

I've only gone on 2-day tours & I can just imagine the difficulty of cleaning/lubing chain/derailer on longer tours. Jeez, my "needs" are simple: disc brakes/drop bar/tire clearance/559 mm wheels/S & S couplers/nice frame design & tubes/Rohloff/Gates. Co-Motion Pangea fills the bill at a mere $6400! Doesn't include medical insurance for heart attacks after the thing is stolen.

I don't feel that I'm asking for the impossible. $200 Walmart bikes have disc brakes; several nice production commuter bikes also but no drop-bar. Some disc-equipped cross bikes but with tighter wheel clearances. German & Dutch tourers are into Rohloff/discs and sometimes Gates but they love flat bars, those bars give me wrist pain on longer rides.

I must give kudos to Salsa/Surly for making an effort. Considered the Salsa Fargo (disc brakes) but no S & S nor 559 mm wheel option; Surly Long Haul Trucker Deluxe offers the nice S & S couplers along with 559 mm wheel for air travel & tire options (seriously thinking about this) but no discs nor Rohloff/Gates compatibility. A rough calculation of what a production touring bike with such components would cost runs to about $3500. Pricey but comparable to production racing bikes that push $5000 with less technology.

OTOH I have to admit that touring bikes are a tiny market segment. I've toured in world-famous spots like the Blue Ridge Mountains, Eastern Shore (Delaware/Maryland/Virginia) & saw zero other tourers in the mountains & only one couple riding on the Eastern Shore.

Well said. Nice to read someone who'll actually say what's on their mind. Kudos.

An issue that always humors me is the buyer spending well in excess of four figures for a bike and then FEELS they have to go out and buy NEW wheels for that NEW bike. Most often this a strength issue for heavier riders... how much would a decent rear cost them... probably less than a 20 in manufacturing costs. Whatever... stick at least a decent wheel on the rear and use it marketing.

Maybe someone knows the $$ breakdown.. say on a 1200 bike.

Dealer gets what... 500........

Freight over the pond and to the LBS... 80 a unit.. [?].

Actual build cost to said marketing company... 375 [?].

I've only gone on 2-day tours & I can just imagine the difficulty of cleaning/lubing chain/derailer on longer tours.
I really don't get this. My tours have ranged from 10 days to 73 days and chain maintenance is really a very minor issue. Every few days I apply some Boesheild T9 and wipe the chain off. That is it. Generally no cleaning is required (or desired). I get about 10K miles out of a chain and suspect that the reason is that I don't aggressively clean them.

I really don't get this. My tours have ranged from 10 days to 73 days and chain maintenance is really a very minor issue. Every few days I apply some Boesheild T9 and wipe the chain off. That is it. Generally no cleaning is required (or desired). I get about 10K miles out of a chain and suspect that the reason is that I don't aggressively clean them.

We do the same - put oil on the chains once a week (at best!). It takes hubby about 30 minutes to clean all the chains with a rag and put new oil on. That's two chains on the tandem, and one each on the single bikes - and that includes the time spent getting the chain lube out of the BOB and putting it back in. It's not a big deal at all.

my first and only big tour was at age 18 for a month. I took a 3oz flat metal bottle of 3in1oil and used about 3/4oz in one month, mostly up in Washington from riding in the rain. Maybe if the op has done it he could imagine it.

I haven't done much touring yet, but I have an LHT and want to discuss a few of the issues that OP brings up:

Brakes: For me this is the weak point. I don't need disc brakes, but the low-end cantis are not very good. It'd be nice if Surly included nicer brakes.

Tire clearance: The LHT has plenty and is available for 26" wheels. I have a 700c model and no issues with it.

Low gears: The LHT has a a tiny granny gear and a wide-range cassette. I'm fairly certain it's a lower gear than what you can do with a Rohloff. I rode in North Carolina on vacation. The Blueridge Parkway itself has long climbs that aren't terribly steep. Once you get off on local roads, well, anything can happen. I did fine climbing with my stock gearing.

Rohloff hub: I'd love a Rohloff, but can't afford it now anyway. You can install one on nearly any bike with a chain tensioner, but I think you'd like a Rohloff specific dropout. There are a few manufacturers who offer that, but it is a small market.

Gates drive: I'd like one for a city bike, but I'm not sure it's ideal for touring. The "cutout" frame required could potentially make for a weaker frame. Replacement belts along the way could be an issue. Replacement chains are plentiful. If you do have a Rohloff driven by a chain, chain maintenance becomes simpler.

S&S Couplers: These things are expensive, that's why so few production bikes have them. That said, you can have them added to many frames.

Drop Bars: Nearly all touring bikes sold in the US have drop bars.

Fork Rake: Most non-disc touring bikes have nice fork rake. My LHT does. Most disc forks do not. I guess it's a design issue. Disc forks need to be stronger which makes them less flexible, therefore less comfortable.

Touring bikes are a niche market. The major manufacturers are trying to hit a price point. It always leads to compromises. You can buy your dream bike, or have a frame custom built, but it costs a lot more. It's still a lot less than any new car.

People have been touring on bikes of all shapes and sizes, from custom built high-end kit, to $200 big-box store bikes.

Oh, and what the big deal spending $3500 on a bike when you put $600 worth of panniers on it. :)

As others have mentioned: Let's not confuse your needs and requirements with those of the majority or totality.

To be clear, this doesn't necessarily mean you are wrong about what you want, only that what you are looking for turns out to be rather expensive, rare and specialized.

It sounds to me like your ideal bike would be something like this:

• MTB frame
• suspension
• clearance for 50mm tires + fenders
• Rohloff hub
• carbon belt drive
• hydraulic disc brakes
• S&S couplers
• drop bars

If you're routinely flying to do off-road remote tours, most of this makes sense -- though you could also just use a more standard MTB and a backpack and/or frame pack.

But most tourists tend to do longer on-road tours where limited resources are available. For them, a lot of these requirements are overkill.

(The carbon belt, by the way, is very new and as yet unproven, especially for those who want to do extended tours. Tourers tend to prefer reliability and repairability in the field over New Hotness. If your belt is damaged in the middle of nowhere, good luck getting it fixed in a reasonable time frame....)

By the way, the Rohloff is $1700ish for the part alone; S&S couplers usually add $1000 to the price. These two "modest" needs alone bumped up the price of your ideal bike by at least $2000.

Brakes for a start, plus comfy ride

A disc brake compatible fork has to be made so much stiffer that it diminishes ride quality. Either you can have a plush fork or disc brakes but not both.

I'm so glad I started touring before reading about it. Otherwise I might have believed I would have to spend thousands and thousands of dollars for all the "right" touring gear in order to do a successful tour.

Compounding the problems with your list of desires, it's not really possible to use hydraulic disk brakes with drop bars, there are simply no compatible levers.

I'm so glad I started touring before reading about it. Otherwise I might have believed I would have to spend thousands and thousands of dollars for all the "right" touring gear in order to do a successful tour.

Ain't that the truth!?!

You can gate carbon-belt-drive touring bike, they are well proven and the latest round-world speed record was made on one. The rear frame opening is not a problem.
Most of these "super-tourers" use butterfly/trekking bars rather than drops to use MTB style controls esp Rohloff shifters and hydraulic brake levers.
I believe both Koga Miyata and Santos make them.

Most of these "super-tourers" use butterfly/trekking bars rather than drops to use MTB style controls esp Rohloff shifters and hydraulic brake levers.


Nearly every touring bike in the US is sold with drop bars. I've read that it's different is Europe.

I'm so glad I started touring before reading about it. Otherwise I might have believed I would have to spend thousands and thousands of dollars for all the "right" touring gear in order to do a successful tour.

+1

+1
This, also.

At this moment, 25 of 50 threads on the Touring section of BF have to do with gear. I guess there's some interest.

This, also.

What they said.

Why not build up your own touring bike? That's what I did. I bought a Bob Jackson World Tour from England, and assembled my own list of components based on my needs. The entire bike cost me much less than a pre-built touring bike would have cost, and I had it built exactly the way I wanted. I saved money by using parts I already had on hand and buying other parts on eBay, on-line shops, etc. My mechanic charged me about $100 to assemble it.

Sounds like the old affliction, caviar tastes and hamburger budget ;) .

Businesses have to be practical. They know most of us can't afford what we want so they sell us what we can afford and leave the top end to the custom makers and a few boutiques like Thorn, etc.

Seems like economics is working fine in this market.

You forgot the front generator hub, and the magic pixie dust to bring it all together. And the climbing legs.

No, but seriously, either fork out $6000+ for your dream bike or get started with a framebuilding class. Also, before you ride down a hill again, you might want to adjust your brakes, and make sure your braking technique is sound. If it's wet out and a long descent, you might want to think about pretty slow speeds and frequent stopping to let the rims cool down. Not how I'd do it, but whatever you're doing, your way sounds dangerous. No amount of the "right" gear or braze-ons or doodads will make you a better cyclist, and a mis-adjusted Rohloff hub and disc brakes will put you in probably an even worse spot than a regular ol' derailer and cantis.

Me, I will use my beat up old 80's Japanese frame, which is plenty comfy, and the mish-mash of old and newer parts that are cobbled together on it, and ride. I will continue to be too lazy to change my gearing to give me a good granny gear, so if the hill's really steep, I'll either hammer through it, or walk. No big deal. And I'll lube the chain when I remember to.

If disc brakes were desired on a drop bar tourer are cable disc brakes like the Avid BBV not compatible with drop bar levers, whether standard or V brake levers like the Tektro RL20 or Dia Compe 287V?

That said properly I've always found properly adjusted V brakes strong enough. Cantis are a bit harder to adjust as there is more variables.

http://sheldonbrown.com/cantilever-geometry.html#mechanical

But as to the main question are production touring bikes any good? I'd say up to a point yes. The gearing is often a bit high and the wheels not good enough. Other than that they are catering for the majority. If you have niche needs you need to customise an off the shelf bike or build your own.

As for the disc brakes, belt drive, Rolhoff hub, big tyre clearance - definitely a niche market.

http://www.shandcycles.com/2010/08/15/mor-dearg/

Wow, i didn't know my Trek 520 was such a POS!

I'm a fan of trekking bars, now. Rohloff hub + magura HS33
the hydraulic rim brake. mere chain drive..

my other rig, scott-pedersen SE cantilevers modolo road levers non aero .. stop very well..

older gear .. 80s Campag MTB dreailleurs , friction shift bar ends , 6 speed freewheel . 3 steel chainrings.
Phil wood Freewheel hub, 48/40 spoke. years of trips on it .
a Bits and pieces build up , 2nd frame to hang my Bruce Gordon Racks upon.

To the OP, way to bring up some new and interesting ideas about what you think makes up touring bikes. I have to say that I personally think there are some great touring bikes on the market right now, but there is nothing wrong with breaking the mold and getting something that you like. I think there may be some bikes out there right now that would fit the bill pretty well though. Someone else mentioned the Thorn bikes, and they make something similar to what you want.

As far as your issues with chain maintenance, it really isn't too bad on longer tours. Just apply oil a wipe a few times every few days or maybe after a day riding in the rain. The chain-driven derailer equipped drive-trains are actually extremely reliable in my opinion. In five thousand miles I think I may have touched a barrel adjuster once or twice. Very few shifting problems. The Rohloff hubs look really neat, but they are so expensive, I am just not sure about them, and their gear range is limited.

Brakes can be a big deal on tours like you mentioned. Personally I have had very good luck with cantilever brakes on touring bikes. Once you get them dialed in and get a quality brake pad, they can even work very well in wet conditions and on hills. The rim braking surface can also dramatically affect performance too if it is oily or glazed over so you might want to check that out. I wouldn't pick a touring bike with discs over another with cantilevers just because of the brakes, in some ways discs can be more maintenance and can burn through pads more quickly. I do like disc brakes though, but I think the cable disk brakes work extremely well. I have some Avid BB7s that I actually prefer over some of the hydraulic brakes.
Another bike you might want to check out is the Surly Troll. Not exactly a touring bike, but it will take a Rohloff and disc brakes with fat tires.
Hope you can find what suits you best, and if you find something that works really well make sure you let us all know!

DropBarFan, just how many 2-day tours have you been on? You seem to have strong opinions on deficiencies in touring bikes for someone who has only done 2-day tours and does a lot of theorising.

Most people's needs are far less than yours.
MO.

I've only been on about 4 2-day tours but OTOH I've done a lot of riding for decades from racing to courier etc. & I've long been partial to touring bikes since they're practical for commuting, courier work, shopping etc. I know a lot of bike enthusiasts have a bike for every occasion, but my concept is for an all-purpose (except racing) bike. & yes, folks tour on all sorts of machines. I'm not a techno-freak, I just don't like shelling out $1,500+ for essentially parts-bin bikes that are not optimal for their intended use.

What you deem necessities, others deem unnecessary. What works for you is a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of what is demanded by the cycling public. I'm afraid that unless a couple of ten thousand people see things exactly your way, you're stuck with building up a custom bike. Manufacturers make money either by high prices or high volume.

99% of cycling public in USA are sunny Sunday bike-path amblers. Thanks to such folks we have a huge variety or racing & mountain bikes few of which are particularly practical. I see your point about the price/volume deal but OTOH I can see a company selling 'my bike' thru the internet to save on distribution costs. Most tourers are capable of assembling a bike. Just today I saw a guy riding a Motobecane racer, I'd bet he bought it from BikesDirect.com.

When I was a courier in the 80's I saw a lot of other couriers switch to mountain bikes for a comfier ride over bad central-city streets. Of course the fat tires were slower but since production touring/road frames weren't designed for bad roads one had to accept the trade-off. Now we see a good deal of tourers switching to "expedition bikes" even though must such tourers aren't really going to bounce over boulders in Outer Mongolia, they just want a comfy ride & good brakes for the varying conditions one normally encounters.

Not quite your blue sky requirements but Civia (part of the QBP fleet of bikes along with Surly and Salsa) offers two tour capable belt drive capable bikes. I think they might be 26" tire capable too but since 26" tires have no sway for me, I never look for that feature. Touring bikes are so different for each of us. I don't think production bikes leave that much to be desired. But my needs are different. Your statement is should say they leave a lot to be desired for "you". I see the LHT with S&S and 26" wheels as a step backwards - I thought the Traveler's Check was better and wish I could have gotten one while possible. I looked into S&S couplers and considered having a bike built with them but for my needs, they really aren't required and wouldn't help me much in my travels. Things could change....
Check with Peter White Cycles and his line of tourers from Tout Terrain. Cheaper than Co-Motion but still pricey but most of what you want is there.

Didn't know Civia was a sister company of Salsa/Surly! I admire their offering belt-drive. Some folks prefer 622 mm wheels over 559. Unfortunately airline restrictions make it hard to squeeze 622 into the 'legal'-sized carrier. Frames with room for fat tires enables one to mount wheels for snowy conditions for instance. A long time ago I read a Bicycling mag article where Fred Delong (IIRC) noted that Eddy Merckx had experimented with smaller wheels (Ridotto "sprint wheels").

I like Peter White but I'm leery of converting flat-bar bikes to drop-bar. I wish there was no need for S & S couplers but airlines no longer provide bike boxes so the alternative is to pay the high surcharge, have the bike boxed at a nearby shop, pay for taxi etc. Baltimore MD sponsored an international pro criterium race for a couple of years back in the day: I read a newspaper article mentioning a German racer who completely disassembled his bike for air travel! I'm guessing he was with a minor team where the racers were responsible for their own equipment. BTW Laurent Fignon rode that race in Baltimore, pretty sure he didn't have to worry about the bike transport problems!

This..
http://gunnarbikes.com/site/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/59077-GrandTour.jpg


http://gunnarbikes.com/site/bikes/grand-tour/

I really don't get this. My tours have ranged from 10 days to 73 days and chain maintenance is really a very minor issue. Every few days I apply some Boesheild T9 and wipe the chain off. That is it. Generally no cleaning is required (or desired). I get about 10K miles out of a chain and suspect that the reason is that I don't aggressively clean them.


As a courier I remember times when it rained for 2 weeks straight. Even one day's ride in the rain (esp with dirtier roads) put a lot of grit on the chain & produced a noticeable loss of efficiency. Not sure how good a light lube/wipe works, I usually did a weekly degreasing/spraying/relube or else removed chain & brushed in solvent. Pro racing teams do that every day.

& when I was a courier the biggest courier company in town had a fleet of BMW motorcycles with shaft drive. A motorcyclist friend recently replaced her moto for one with shaft-drive to avoid the maintenance hassles. Harleys have moved to belt-drive.

Well said. Nice to read someone who'll actually say what's on their mind. Kudos.

An issue that always humors me is the buyer spending well in excess of four figures for a bike and then FEELS they have to go out and buy NEW wheels for that NEW bike. Most often this a strength issue for heavier riders... how much would a decent rear cost them... probably less than a 20 in manufacturing costs. Whatever... stick at least a decent wheel on the rear and use it marketing.

Maybe someone knows the $$ breakdown.. say on a 1200 bike.

Dealer gets what... 500........

Freight over the pond and to the LBS... 80 a unit.. [?].

Actual build cost to said marketing company... 375 [?].

Thanks for your comments...I remember when 36-spoke wheels were standard on racing & multi-purpose bikes & 40-spoke rear wheel was common for heavy-duty touring. Not sure how many racers win by the sheer advantage of 4 or more less spokes. On a recent trip to Miami I saw a rich Brazilian doctor & shop employee debating the fine points of $500 ultra-light wheels. Last fall I passed by a roadie who asked me if I had a spare CO2 cartridge to temporarily inflate his flat tire. A real racer would have a spare tube & tools to fix the problem.

DBF, I like the idea of pushing a design and surely what you want would be one heckuva bike. On the other hand one of the values of being a cyclist is that the bike itself doesn't need to be a technical marvel to perform well. I've loaded an inexpensive rack pack and panniers on my mountain bike and have had a great time.

I'm building up a '95 Cannondale T700 because I've long had an itch for a drop bar light tourer/downtown bomber/fire road rider and will present it to this forum when finished for some expert comments about what I did wrong and what can be better.

Brad

This thread does make "some" sense, but then again bike manufacturers are in competetion with each other, and cost is a huge issue. That said, I bought my LHT with my eyes wide open. First thing that went was the seat, seat post, as were the tires. I changed the brake pads too, but with the brakes themselves (they feel better and stop better with upgraded pads) I still think they may be weak coming off the Blue Ridge into Vesuvious. So I'm thinking a brake system change may be coming before 2012. I also swapped the 26T granny for a 24T, I had a 24 laying around so why not? Other than those changes, the LHT was essentially ready to go for me, and I am a little bit of a techno geek! :)

Uh.... Again, you do realize that S&S couplers alone typically add $1000 to the cost of the bike, and a Rohloff hub is usually $1700?

If we start with a Salsa Fargo frame, S&S couplers and a Rohloff, that right there is $3100. That's not even including wheels.

Again, if that's what you like, then by all means that's what you should try to build.

But why do you believe that someone could put out your Ideal Mass Production Touring Bike at a price that is even remotely competitive to seasoned and well-respected touring platforms like the Trek 520 or Surly LHT? Even selling the bike completely unassembled over the Internet is not going to whack the price in half....

I changed the brake pads too, but with the brakes themselves (they feel better and stop better with upgraded pads) I still think they may be weak coming off the Blue Ridge into Vesuvious. So I'm thinking a brake system change may be coming before 2012.

I was just thinking, reading the original post, that two of us rode down from the BRP into Vesuvius on Randonees, same bike as the OP's, and had no problem braking all the way down. On stock pads (which I later changed out for Koolstop Salmons, but that's another story). Fully loaded. I guess we're lucky there were no runaway truck ramps. :)

Damn,I hate when I have to compromise....

Production bikes are just what the name implies,the least amount for the most.

Purpose built touring bikes have always occupied a very small section of the total bike market and by the early 80's very few manufacturers even offered a touring bike in their lineup... this has been the mainstay of more than a few small builders for quite some time as the market was not supplying what people wanted.

Surly has done a good job with the LHT and Trek's 520 is a pretty nice off the peg touring bike... the Miyata 600 and 1000 pretty much held the fort for quite some time.

There used to be quite a few frame builders here and all but one focussed on building racing bikes and mountain bikes and those guys are gone while we continue to make touring bikes as the demand has been rather steady for the past 30 years.

And people tour on pretty much everything, adapting what they already like and making it better.

I agree that most stock wheel sets are sub par for extreme duty and in the case of the LHT, it seems that more people use these for all round transportation more than they do full on touring and Surly can drop their price by offering less expensive wheels that will handle this kind of duty.

Some of the bikes we build get custom built wheels and depending on the use and build requirement, a wheel set might cost $600.00... we have put 48 spoke tandem wheels under some touring bikes that have heavier riders who also carry a ton of gear.

My touring bike is a refitted Kuwahara Cascade and it has no lack of braking power, can run some very wide tyres, has a beautiful ride, and has taken me 10's of thousands of km in absolute comfort. My build cost was pretty low and being able to do all the work and build wheels helps with that.

It is one water bottle mount short of being perfect and I will take care of that.

http://www.ravingbikefiend.com/bikepics/cascade2010touring.JPG

Conversely... we also build these which cost many times more than my Kuwahara... disc brakes are getting to be a pretty common feature although this bike stops just fine with v brakes.

http://www.ravingbikefiend.com/bikepics/arvonworldtourist1.JPG

"To Float amoungst its currents and dream. Of course!

...... I've only gone on 2-day tours & I can just imagine the difficulty of cleaning/lubing chain/derailer on longer tours. Jeez, my "needs" are simple: disc brakes/drop bar/tire clearance/559 mm wheels/S & S couplers/nice frame design & tubes/Rohloff/Gates......

Need a disc brake, belt drive rohloff S&S bike to take off for more than a weekend? this must be a new development in the world of bike touring.

What are you riding right now? you could add couplers to your existing disc brake, belt drive rohloff bike.

http://www.bikerumor.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/fred-birchmore-jr-cycles-around-world.jpg

Fred Birchmore rode around the world with this set up in 1934 - 35.

If you go to the Smithsonian you can see his ride.

http://americanhistory.si.edu/onthemove/img/media/xl/535.jpg

I don't know about you, Sixty Fiver, but I never get on my bike without my Sombrero. It just seems wrong.

I don't know about you, Sixty Fiver, but I never get on my bike without my Sombrero. It just seems wrong.

:lol:

Fred was one of the most accomplished athletes and riders of his day and did not need a billion speeds or disc brakes to travel around the world and across North America... it gives one a little perspective on what one actually needs to travel by bike.

I think a sombrero would add some style...

One way is to ask yourself what is really wrong with the bike you have. If you have anything decent at all the answer is probably, nearly nothing. The other way is to ask what is right about it, and the answer is pretty much the same. It is just the exercise of a different muscle. I see no harm in questioning every single component and insisting on nothing but the best. There are quite a few people here who talk about just for show, or Champagne. But quite a few of those people have had a lot of bikes of essentially identical mediocrity, and spent the Champagne budget on them. There are a some people who think out of the box, and are willing to ride something a little different, and others who seem mostly to be influenced by what is available commercially, and are in a bike testing rather than creating mode. No right or wrong, make yourself happy.

" Brakes for a start, plus comfy ride"


Ride I am OK with, and i have lots of aches and pains

"super-low gears & the option to mount Rohloff/Gates"

This is stock and really a mater of talking to your LBS and getting subs as required, or build out a frame. The problem with stock bikes is they have to be pleasing on the test ride and the test ride is not the same environment: The brooks might feel hard; the higher gear range will be more appropriate without the gear weight; Super quick shifting is more useful to me in the city than the open road. All kinds of stuff. You can't sell what you can't sell, so these are realities and you have to address them.

I don't think Rohloff Gates as an option is structurally or commercially desirable. As a small scale frame builder I have never been able to score the parts. Apparently they are now available, but I spent about 3 years getting told they were coming. I would still like to do one someday. Cheapness wise a gates Shimano is pretty realistic. Harley uses belt drives as you say, but they are not used on the high HP motors because they break. I still am not perfectly sure about them. Apparently they squeak sub 40F. Have alignment problems, though bikes ought to have correct alignment.


" Rode a loaded tour on the Blue Ridge Parkway & the Shimano cantilever brakes couldn't even stop me going down the final hill during misty weather, I actually had to ride onto the runaway truck ramp."

With cantis it isn't just adjustment, it is compatibility. Some brakes simply will not work with some fork and rim geometry. All that said, I think at certain load levels, touring bikes are just as ready for a brake upgrade as tandems. I have ridden my touring bile at tandem load levels. I did not feel there was adequate brake redundancy or power.

"IMHO disc brakes should be a must & why not go for hydraulic to reduce hand fatigue going down mountains in cold wet weather?"

Because they don't make them any more compatible for drop bars. Has this changed with the new brakes being brought out for XC bikes?

"Long wheelbase & fork rake for comfort: one shouldn't have to mount slow fat tires to make up for design deficiencies."

Causes problems with shipping or even carrying in vehicles. Not sure it would get an S&S bike into a box. I like it though.


"Drop bars a must, they were standard for decades on quality touring bikes for decades for good reason."

Trekking bars are crazy.

" Co-Motion Pangea fills the bill at a mere $6400! Doesn't include medical insurance for heart attacks after the thing is stolen."

There must be any number of people who could do that for 3-4

"German & Dutch tourers are into Rohloff/discs and sometimes Gates but they love flat bars, those bars give me wrist pain on longer rides."

The fact a lot of those continental bikes are so different suggests that there is nothing fundamental about the form we all take for granted over here.

"Pricey but comparable to production racing bikes that push $5000 with less technology... OTOH I have to admit that touring bikes are a tiny market segment."

That doesn't stop the bikes that are sold from being better. I think it is mostly the cheapness of the buyers. I live in a very unremarkable suburb and the local bike store has rack after rack of 4K MTBs. But a touring bike over 1500 is a pretty rare item around here. Maybe it is because tourists actually have a practical objective, rather than just being into the bikes.

Hey Dropbarfan, you know what you want and that's good. If it doesn't match the mainstream, so be it. I have preferences which are definitely not mainstream, but they're based on my personal druthers and years of touring experience. My druthers have changed over the years and yours may too, but they are what they are now.

However, I'd echo what others seem to be saying. The touring section of the biking market is small enough anyway. Companies hoping to turn a profit building tourers have to be pretty mainstream so that enough people will buy them to warrant production. I think the reason the Surly LHT has become such a good seller is partly due to the bike, and partly due to Surly's business model. They have a solid, "mainstream" tourer with the features tourers most commonly want. They sell them probably more via the internet and dealers' orders, rather than by having a bunch on showroom floors. I've never seen one in any of the bike shops I've been in.

Perhaps you should do what I've done. Buy a frame and build it up to your own specifications. You seem to like discs, so find a frame with disc mounts. Make sure it will handle a Rohloff hub, etc.

My LHT has cantilever brakes. I've gone down some pretty steep hills with a big load and I've always been able to stop. I keep my speed down, especially when it's wet, and make sure my rims aren't overheating. I'd prefer V-brakes but haven't gotten around to making the switch. My 29er will have mechanical discs, so I'll soon find out what those are like. Eventually I'll have to try hydraulics so I know what they're like too.

Good luck.

Maybe someone knows the $$ breakdown.. say on a 1200 bike.

Dealer gets what... 500........

Freight over the pond and to the LBS... 80 a unit.. [?].

Actual build cost to said marketing company... 375 [?].

It will vary a bit depending upon the dealer volume, order size, and brand, but a $1200 bike will likely cost the dealer about $850 BEFORE shipping (free-$150), assembly ($50 minimum, $150+ properly), and overhead costs. Most dealers make very little (if anything) on bikes under $1000-1200. The $$ is in repairs and accessories. As far as the distributor, the breakdown traditionally (a long time ago when I was in the business) was Frame/Wheels/Components/Assembly-shipping at 25% each. Different brands had different split targets, and location of frame type construction/assembly can skew this heavily. Tehre is also usually some sort of short term financing back-and-forth between the distributor and the dealers which someone needs toaccount for, but this, like shipping, is brand/volume specific.

While I agree that good factory-spec touring bikes are few and far between (Surly, Gunnar have been mentioned here), I would also say that the touring market is relatively small portion and touring riders are some of the most catty of all riders. This is justifiable as touring riders probably are at the upper end of the annual mileage scales for all riders. I know that I would not want to tour days-on-end on the bike you describe, but that is just me. Some people camp, others use hotels. SOme ride for months, others just a weekend. Some commute every day in all sorts of weather. Surly and until recently, Novara, at least provide a decent mid-level bike which sort of covers all of the bases. However, if you are serious about mileage, I recommend starting with a frame (Surly, Gunnar, Bob Jackson, Koga, whatever), and building it up the way YOU want if for what YOU want to do. It will cost a bit more, but that is the best way to do it.