Classic & Vintage - Internally geared hub question

I've got a couple of questions for the folks out there with 3-speed hub (et. al) experience. Were these mostly laced to 26 inch rims, or were there bikes spec'd with, say, an S-A internal on 27 inch rims? (Apologies in advance for what is most likely a pretty basic question, but all of my experience is with derailleur drive systems.) My presumption is yes, there were probably many such bikes... but what are some examples? I'm guessing Raleigh - what else? Also: how unusual are 4-speed hubs? I'd like to learn more about these (to me) curiosities of drive systems, and I'm still trying to make sense out of how they actually work! It's easier for me when I can see the external mechanisms of a five speed cog, you know?

Thanks for your insight.

I think of an IGH as a "Transmission" I don't ask too much about how it does its thing and in return it does its thing pretty reliably.

If you look back at some 1930's, 40's and 50's bicycle catalogs you'll see that often individual bike models were offered in a standard configuration but the description will note that you can add on a 3 speed or 4 speed hub for a few extra dollars(or pounds).

Way back, many were laced to 26" wheels, but they were most likely EA3 or EA1 Size as opposed to the now more common 26" (ISO 559) size.

In the olden days, internal geared hubs could show up mostly in 26, 27 or 28 inch rims depending on the model of bicycle it was used. 26 in for Raleigh Sports type models, 27 in for Clubman type racers, and 28 in for Tourist type cruisers. Four speed hubs are more rare but they show up from time to time. Four speed hubs seem more plentiful in the British market. Now days internal geared hubs show in in any size rim you want.

Most of my experience has been with AW hubs on nominal 26-inch wheels like those on my Raleigh Sports (not sure what the ISO of the tire is). But Raleigh did use AWs on some 27-inch wheeled bikes also, like the Sprite 27s. No real difference except that the bigger rim diameter raises the effective gearing by what, 4 percent or something?

So aside from the obvious issue of cleanliness with an internal gear hub, what are the pros and cons of an IGH?

26" is nominal. Many 3-speed bikes were made in the day laced to the 26 x 1-3/8 rim which, while nominally called 26" really isn't. Older wheel sizing systems make little sense at all really and Sheldon's site (http://www.sheldonbrown.com/tire-sizing.html#dishonest) does a pretty good job of explaining it (as best as one can.) 26 x 1-3/9 is 590mm while the old standard MTB 26" tire/rim is 559mm -they aren't even close. A large issue with the old measuring system is they counted the tire in the measurement so that the size was the outside diameter so the design/profile of the tire was integral to the number (when they weren't just outright cheating the number.)

As far as the "how IGH hubs work" explanation goes, there are planetary gears inside that counter-rotate in different ways in different gears. Sheldon's site has a wealth of information on them too.

Start here (http://www.sheldonbrown.com/sturmey-archer_3-spd.html#older).

So aside from the obvious issue of cleanliness with an internal gear hub, what are the pros and cons of an IGH?

No external derailleur and multiple cogs to mess around with. It's a smooth/simple chainline without any need for a built-in tensioner. The chain is much less likely to fall off and the internal gears don't get misaligned/tangled or need any real maintenance or adjustment once set up correctly. Since there is only one cog in the rear and (usually) one chainwheel in the front the chainline is strong and robust which not only cuts down on chain wear but it can run with a greater range of chain wear and longer life. The chain can also be covered more easily than with a derailleur bike which needs room for the chain to move around and would be hard to put the chain back on should it fall off if there was a chainguard in the way. Covered chains can last longer when not exposed to the elements, don't need to be oiled nearly as often, and are less likely to snag your clothing or put grease/oil on them.

One last, and major, advantage of the IGH is that you can shift gears without the bike or the hub moving. You can come up to a stop sign or light without worrying about downshifting before you come to a stop. you can change gears with a simple click of the trigger shifter without regard for moving the hub and it will pretty much instantly be in that gear after turning a few degrees at the most.

The disadvantage is that 3-speeds aren't enough for some situations. IGH's with more speeds get more expensive and complex although they do exist although they are rare to non-existent in older bikes. Maybe the future will hold more of these hubs for us C&V-ers and hopefully they will hold up and stand the test of time. In a flat city like Chicago where I live 3 speeds are plenty for commuting and bombing around town. The old classic AW Sturmey-Archer hub is pretty bullet-proof and many/most 30-50 year old hubs need no servicing at all other than adding a bit of oil and adjusting the control cable to put back on the road again for a few more decades of trouble-free simple-shifting service. Another disadvantage is they are more expensive to produce than freewheel/freehub&Derailleur designs. But since there are so many old used Sturmey/Archer hubs already out there this isn't that big of a deal unless you want/need to buy a new product.

For those who don't know how to adjust a derailleur themselves an IGH is a huge money-saver over paying a mechanic to work on their derailleur regularly (and they do need regular attention) so that they work correctly. It's not as dead simple as the popular fixed and single-speed bikes you see everywhere today as they are complex internally but that complexity is totally hidden behind the scenes since they are almost zero maintenance other than needing the occasional few drops of oil.

ALso possibly worth mentioning, IGH's are heavy. Debate all you want about where the mass is located and rotational this and that...bottom line, Internal Geared Hubs are heavy.

ALso possibly worth mentioning, IGH's are heavy. Debate all you want about where the mass is located and rotational this and that...bottom line, Internal Geared Hubs are heavy.

I just think of it like I'm always on my training bike.

ALso possibly worth mentioning, IGH's are heavy. Debate all you want about where the mass is located and rotational this and that...bottom line, Internal Geared Hubs are heavy.

That's true, but somehow my Super Course MkII with its modern S-A 5-speed hub still comes in around 25 lbs with fenders, which is likely less than it weighed as originally fitted. I'm running relatively light weight 700c rims, a single chainring, and probably a few other things that are lighter than originally spec'd.

As far as the OP's question, as others have pointed out, various bikes back in the 1940s to 1960s came with S-A hubs and 590mm, 597mm, and 630mm rims. I have all of those combos in my fleet. Unfortunately, it's hard to get a hold of those original wheels or it's hard to find 40-hole rims to lace to those old S-A hubs (though you can find a 36-hole AW hub and swap in the innards from other models if you choose). That's a good reason why the modern IG hubs are attractive.

Neal

Another key point, IGH's are English. German ones were good, and were made in large numbers, but we don't encounter them here. I've never heard of an internally geared hub made in France or Italy, where derailleurs were developed. The golden age of Sturmey Archer hubs was the post-war period when England was exporting its war debt to us. At that time --ending in the early 50's-- they came on bikes with any wheel size (as discussed already) and any handlebar style.

By 1960 the market had changed. There are various reasons for that. Weight, utility, efficiency, etc. may have been mentioned among these reasons, but I don't believe they actually figured in it at all. Equally important were nationalistic racing rules (were IGH's ever allowed in the Tour de France?), the decline of utility cycling along with the rise of the automobile, &c. Moulton maintained a market for 4 speed hubs into the mid 60's, and then then the 5-speed hub came out, but by this period IGH's came only on bikes with upright handlebars and 26 x 1 3/8" (or smaller) wheels. By this time these bikes were seen as "old fashioned" while derailleur bikes were "modern." And this prejudice has continued since that time.

4 speed hubs were pretty common once, though not as common as 3-speed hubs; but they haven't been made in over 40 years, and they haven't been put on racy drop-bar bikes for over 50 years, and they have never been common on bikes that weren't made in England. They are robust, but they are a bit more troublesome than 3 speed hubs. They are quite nice, though. If you have a chance to pick one up, I'd say: go for it!

The best way to figure out how they work is to pick up an old Sturmey-Archer AW hub (cheap and abundant), open it up and play around with it.

It's true that the big disadvantage of a three-speed hub is that it may not give you a low enough gear for seriously hilly terrain. One way mitigate that is to add a rear derailleur and if necessary a second chainring in front, which doesn't have to be equipped with a derailleur if it's only for occasional "emergency bail-out" use--you can get off the bike and shift onto it manually.
To some degree, this is a worst-of-both-worlds solution since it adds the complexity of a derailleur to a gearing system that's supposed to be very simple. I have been happy with that setup, though--I especially like the fact that it leaves you with some ability to shift even when stopped.

I don't mind the weight. I'm 200lbs so a pound or so here and there on the bike is NBD (No Big Deal.) Heck, I carry an OnGuard Brute lock everywhere I go AND a thick 3/8" 6-foot cable. What is a pound of weight when you have 35 lbs of groceries in your rear baskets?

I'm not a really fast rider nor do I venture out into the countryside. I'm a city commuter in a city that is as flat as a pancake. The only hills in Chicago are the overpasses and bridges over the river.

Some older 3-speed bikes came egregiously over-geared. Swapping out the stock 18t rear cog for a 20t or 22t really solves that problem although they bring down the high gear so that you might be really spinning going down fast hills. Riding an old English 3-speed fast down hills probably isn't a very smart idea on old steel poor-braking rims with an upright riding position anyhow. Like I said, I'm not into racing or riding really fast so the drop-bar lycra-clad speed-freak thing isn't for me. I think most of your average american joes who gets a bike for cheap around-town transportation is in that same boat.

It's true that the big disadvantage of a three-speed hub is that it may not give you a low enough gear for seriously hilly terrain. One way mitigate that is to add a rear derailleur and if necessary a second chainring in front, which doesn't have to be equipped with a derailleur if it's only for occasional "emergency bail-out" use--you can get off the bike and shift onto it manually.
To some degree, this is a worst-of-both-worlds solution since it adds the complexity of a derailleur to a gearing system that's supposed to be very simple. I have been happy with that setup, though--I especially like the fact that it leaves you with some ability to shift even when stopped.

You can add a derailleur and double up your rear cogs by using Shimano cogs or find a Cyclo kit that will add 3 1/8 cogs in the rear.

Have done this but really prefer the clean uncluttered look of a 3 speed... have had many calls to re-fit SA hubs into modern wheels for people here and the 3 speed winter mtb is getting more and more popular since an IGH is ideal for our winter climate and riding conditons.

My '88 Kuwahara has a 3 speed with a generator (AG) and runs modern 26 inch wheels... has been an excellent set jup and ran it through the winter without a spec of trouble... and I have taken it off roading as well as the gearing is set fairly low.

http://www.ravingbikefiend.com/bikepics/uavatv7.JPG

The golden age of Sturmey Archer hubs was...

The first golden age was arguably the 1930s when the company offered a myriad of models and IGH bikes were used for touring and - you might want to sit down for this - racing and winning against derailleur equipped bikes. Some say we're in another golden age now.


...were IGH's ever allowed in the Tour de France?

Yes (http://www.sturmey-archerheritage.com/images/photos/pic-200.jpg).

The golden age of Sturmey Archer hubs was...
The first golden age was arguably the 1930s when the company offered a myriad of models and IGH bikes were used for touring and - you might want to sit down for this - racing and winning against derailleur equipped bikes.Fair enough. Before WWII, IGH's appeared to be the future of cycling, and derailleurs were pretty terrible. But those pre-war hubs are pretty rare now, in comparison to the huge numbers we still see that date to 1948 and later. As for racing... cycle racing in England was pretty different from cycle racing elsewhere; different laws, different customs, different objectives. I know IGH's were widely used for racing In England; but elsewhere?
Some say we're in another golden age now. I agree. But that's another subject, isn't it? Incidentally... are they much used in racing now?




...were IGH's ever allowed in the Tour de France?
Yes (http://www.sturmey-archerheritage.com/images/photos/pic-200.jpg).
Fair enough, and fascinating! But is that the whole story?

The best way to figure out how they work is to pick up an old Sturmey-Archer AW hub (cheap and abundant), open it up and play around with it.

+1

ALso possibly worth mentioning, IGH's are heavy. Debate all you want about where the mass is located and rotational this and that...bottom line, Internal Geared Hubs are heavy.

I'm not so sure this is true. I know the hub itself is heavy but there are so many items removed elsewhere which offset that weight. There is a perception of heaviness when you hold the hub in your hand. What you have to do (and I did) was hold the box of removed parts in your hand to see just how heavy that is, too.

I surely do wish I had actual measured weights from my recent build. I know the box of parts I took off was much heavier than I thought it would be. I can weight the removed parts, I just wish I had weighed everything that went onto the bike.

Things that came off -
hub
wide range freewheel
rear derailleur
long spokes
long cable housing
front derailleur
front derailleur cable
Front derailleur cable housing
front derailleur shifter
large front chain ring
small front chainring
five nuts, bolts and spacers for small front chainring


As far as benefits -
much easier to shift than a friction shifter-equipped derailleur, MUCH!
shifts while under power
shifts when standing still
clean
low maintenance
no fuss, no muss, set it and forget it
quiet, really nicely quiet
simple chain line.
good aesthetics - very simple clean appearance, no business of rear derailleur, no crooked chain, single front shainring,... nice clean lines.

I replaced an 18 speed (6X3) with an 8 speed Alfine rear IGH. It has almost as wide a range as the old set up, certainly as wide a range of nicely spaced gears as any of my 10 or 12 speed bikes (2X5 or 2X6). If I had waited for an 11 speed Alfine, I'm sure its gear range would have been stunningly wide.

If cost were not an issue, I think the average consumer would prefer and be better served by an IGH than a derailleur-equipped bike. From a user perspective, they are just MUCH simpler to use and are more user friendly. I suspect a lot of local bike mechanics ould go outof business from lack of work if IGH's become more widely used (favorable or not, this is a real concern, too).

I suspect the cost difference/disparity is driven in part by economies of scale which benefit derailleur equipped bikes.

I build up a lot of IGH equipped wheels so in that respect, the resurgence of popularity and improvement in what is available is good for the wheel building end of things but once built I probably won't see those customers very often afterwards.

Am building up a new SA 5 speed after lunch for a customer and have another new 3 speed wheel (with coaster brake) in the queue and just built up a Nuvinci CVT into an mtb wheel.

The price of an IGH wheel could make many bike riders do a double take... the Nuvinci wheel was built with top of the line parts and is worth $700.00... it could handle 10 foot drops if it had to.

The new coaster equipped 3 speed wheel built to a high standard will run about $250.00

The 5 speed wheel is a little over $340.00.

A new Shimano Alfine 11 is going to be close to $600.00 if we looked at a high end build.

Once you factor in the reliability and mileage you can get out of an IGH hub and the lowered maintainence interval they will pay for themselves quite a few times over.

A simple SA AW hub costs $60.00 (new) and if you factor in $35.00 for spokes, $35.00 for a build, and use something like a CR 18 ($30.00) you have a $160.00 rear wheel that will run for 30,000 plus miles.

The best way to figure out how they work is to pick up an old Sturmey-Archer AW hub (cheap and abundant), open it up and play around with it.


+1

+2

I've paid as little as $5 for one. You may find these videos (http://graham.hopto.org/tct/?Technical) useful.

A simple SA AW hub costs $60.00 (new) and if you factor in $35.00 for spokes, $35.00 for a build, and use something like a CR 18 ($30.00) you have a $160.00 rear wheel that will run for 30,000 plus miles.

Or you can get a used AW wheel/hub for next to nothing at a swap or Clist and build it into a wheel for under $100 even with labor -less if you want to reuse the spokes and keep the original size or even do it yourself as that is pretty easy.

Like you said CR-18 rims are $30. re-use the spokes if you keep it 590mm. Plenty of tire choices out there. I can buy an entire old used English 3-speed bike for $40-50, spend $30-40 in parts getting it roadworthy (or even less depending) and stick with the old steel rims. Spend another $70 or so on new rims and still be well under $200 for a killer all-season urban bike. Those old SA Hubs are pretty durable. Stay away from the SW and you'll be totally fine 9 out of 10 times. That 10th time just swap out guts.

Or you can get a used AW wheel/hub for next to nothing at a swap or Clist and build it into a wheel for under $100 even with labor -less if you want to reuse the spokes and keep the original size or even do it yourself as that is pretty easy.

Like you said CR-18 rims are $30. re-use the spokes if you keep it 590mm. Plenty of tire choices out there. I can buy an entire old used English 3-speed bike for $40-50, spend $30-40 in parts getting it roadworthy (or even less depending) and stick with the old steel rims. Spend another $70 or so on new rims and still be well under $200 for a killer all-season urban bike. Those old SA Hubs are pretty durable. Stay away from the SW and you'll be totally fine 9 out of 10 times. That 10th time just swap out guts.

Preaching to the choir here...

I like using vintage SA AW hubs because they are oil lubricated, can be found for fairly low cost, and if you can re-use spokes and do your own labour the wheel cost drops a good deal.

The new SunRace AW is a very nice unit and the QC is much better than many of the later English made hubs... post war to the mid 50's is when the SA AW really hit it's peak as the quality was outstanding.

The hub on my winter bike was an NOS AG that I picked up for $20.00 (smoking deal for one of these), used new spokes and re-cycled a Mavic rim that was in fine shape.

I build wheels for a living so my estimates were based on materials and labour for new builds... the difference between a new SA and an old SA can make a significant difference and as the rear is 0 dish it is a good first wheel for a beginner to work on.

Before he passed away, Sheldon Brown predicted that the IGH hub would take over from derailleur gears on everything except high performance bicycles and more and more manufacturers are adding IGH equipped bikes to their line ups.

I wonder if the IGH will live up to Sheldon's prediction but it seems that it just might take off again. There seems to be a lot of interest in the old 3-speeds both from a vintage hipster point of view but also because of the utility of them. There is also a growing Dutch bike craze as well. The 10-speed bike boom made the derailleur bike ubiquitious in the USA and was the death knell of the old Sturmey-Archer/Raleigh empire. The sun really did set on the British :( But it was the best thing that ever happened to the IGH when they were bought and moved to the far east. Build quality has gone way up and they are innovating again. That's what it is going to take. Perhaps they are ready to take things back from the derailleur.

I see the fixie craze as having the same genesis as the IGH renaissance. Sure, it is powered by the hipster crowd as a trend but there really is something to a bike that has very little maintenance issues and dispenses with the outward mechanical complexity and adjustment hassle of the derailleur. The IGH might be heavier than the single-speed but it shares that bullet-proof simplicity on the outside that I feel has drawn a lot of people to the single-speed/fixie and that same element is going to be drawn to 3-speeds as they start to percolate amongst that population.

With more and more old bikes being put back into service and the prices of ready to ride mechanically restored old 3-speeds going through the roof I think this shows that people are buying them again in decent numbers and demand is rising. With more of them out there I think they just might catch on with the hipsters and if that is enough to get the industry to notice then all the big makers will start offering them again just like they started to offer fixies and single-speeds.

The 10-speed bike boom of the 70's happened very fast and changed the face of the industry and the MTB boom of the mid-late 80's happened even faster. I think maybe things are changing again and there will be a swing to IGH bikes once people realize they are "cool" and utilitarian and they can put a big chain guard over their drivetrain and never have to worry about greasy thrown chains and marks on their pantlegs again.

But as you said, I'm probably preaching to the choir ;)

Amesja -

When I find them, those old Raleigh Sports and other nice three speeds don't last any time at my shop... I usually sell a tuned up and fully overhauled Sports (excellent condition) for $175.00 and you can't find a nicer new bike at this price anywhere.

I also have a long list of people who are looking for DL1's.

I do not make it my business to flip bikes but do sell a few every year.

use a AW3 & Schlumpf Mountain Drive crank,
.. the flick of the trigger shifter to high gear,
in sequence with the downshift to the MD reduction gear
is a quick 1 .. 2 for the next lower gear ratio
after low in High range gets to be to hard a slog.

I think the prices here in Chicago are even better than that and I am betting they will even heat up more this summer as people start looking for bikes. It was a brutal winter. The LBS around the corner is asking more in the line of $250-300 sticker for fully overhauled units like these (they have 3 right now so they are betting they will be big too) but they are a bike shop and Dealer price versus Private sale always will be a bit different with the expectation of service/limited warranty and such.

I'm not looking to be a serious flipper, I just want to get enough to pay for my hobby and cover my expenses. Even making as much as $60-80 on the sale is something like $2/hour for my time and that doesn't' include running around for looking for odd parts or test-riding/break-in time making sure it's not going to have any issues for the new owner. I want the buyer to be HAPPY with their new English 3-speed.

I spent most of the winter in Portland... the price of a nice used Raleigh there is about double what they sell for here and their used bike prices among the highest I have ever seen.

The 5 speed wheel is a little over $340.00.

A new Shimano Alfine 11 is going to be close to $600.00 if we looked at a high end build.

Once you factor in the reliability and mileage you can get out of an IGH hub and the lowered maintainence interval they will pay for themselves quite a few times over.



I paid about $300 for my Alfine 8 speed IGH. The total cost for the wheel was under $400. It has been great.

If you can find one, the older Shimano 8 speed Nexus model is available at much lower cost (~$180) but I have no experience with them.

I avoided the Rollhauf hub because of it high cost ($1k), heaviness and strange cabling. Same for the NuVinci.

If you are willing to spoil the chainline and use a tensioner, double or triple rings up front can help a good bit too. 42/49 or 44/52 with a 19t cog gets you pretty perfect half-steps for an easy 6 speeds, and using a 40/45/50 rings gives 9 gears with no duplication and a slightly expanded range.

ALso possibly worth mentioning, IGH's are heavy. Debate all you want about where the mass is located and rotational this and that...bottom line, Internal Geared Hubs are heavy.

The hub may be heavier, but you also remove all the deraileurs, the freewheel, one lever and cable and a few inches of chain. I weighed my Kabuki before and after changing it to a three-speed Shimano hub and it had shed 3 pounds. It would be more if I take off the second chainwheel.

The sun really did set on the British. But it was the best thing that ever happened to the IGH when they were bought and moved to the far east.

FYI, the sun is setting on the Germans as well, with SRAM moving their IGH production to a new facility in Taiwan. This will end 107 years of IGH production in Schweinfurt. I'm not in the industry but I understand this is a reluctant move; however, most of their German IGH production is now shipped to Taiwan, built into complete bikes and shipped back to Europe, so the hub production move makes sense.

Here is SRAM's new fully-mechanical automatic shifting (http://hubstripping.wordpress.com/fs-torpedo-automatic/) A2, courtesy Bike Europe:

http://www.bike-eu.com/public/Bike%20Europe%20SRAM%20hub%20234.gif

The 2-speed is due in May. Look for new SRAM 7- and 8-speed hub designs @ Eurobike.


The IGH might be heavier than the single-speed but it shares that bullet-proof simplicity on the outside that I feel has drawn a lot of people to the single-speed/fixie and that same element is going to be drawn to 3-speeds as they start to percolate amongst that population.

Actually, my Capo gained less than two pounds when I added the T3, shifter and cable. By the time I get on the bike with a water bottle and tool bag, this is less than a 1% increase in over-the-road weight, and I've got to admit the addition of the three speed hub made it a much more versatile and useful machine.

I avoided the Rohloff [spelling correction] hub because of it high cost ($1k), heaviness and strange cabling.

Pull - pull cabling is simple and reliable . weight is needing comparison with all the Mountain bike Drive-train you don't need , and all the cassettes you will not need to replace, over time.

Used is Good , I am buying complete bikes for less than just sum of some of the parts.
1st one complete Koga WTR Trekking bike racks mudguards and all ..

I've never heard of an internally geared hub made in France or Italy, where derailleurs were developed.

If France and Italy represent the alpha and omega of cycling for a particular C&V fan, then IGHs won't be of great interest. However, IGHs have been manufactured in Great Britain, Germany, Switzerland, Japan, Austria, Singapore, South Korea, Taiwan, China and the United States over the last 115 years.