General Cycling Discussion - Brands

When i was reading magazines i could have an idea about the best and the not so bests brands.-
In that moment (1998-99) this was the list FOR ME, from the best to the not so best in mountain bikes.-

Hardtails

GT
Cannondale
Specialized
Trek
Giant
Gary Fisher
Diamond Back Race (DBR)
Schwinn


Full Suspension

Specialized
Treck
Santa Cruz
Giant
Jamis
and others like Klein, Kona, Cannondale


"Full money"

VooDoo
Seven
Merlin
and other that I could't remember, it was a group in The USA who made bikes only under request. (I'm sorry, how do you say "a pedido") Drew or Brew or something like that.-

In this moment i can't get bike magazines. Can you tell me how is the spectrum, with GT out, and new others brands like Rocky Mountain, K2, etc.-

I don't think it is really possible to classify bike brands as being "better" than another. They all have perks and low points, but no compnay is better. Also, pretty much all frames are made in Taiwan. So you can't really say Giant bikes have better frames than Specialized or Trek...They(the frames) are all made in the same place. The four bar suspension with a Horst link by Specialized is hailed as the best rear suspension design, but I'm sure some people don't like it. Some bike companies don't have as much bng for the buck, but that doesn't really mean anything.

Yes, most mid-priced mountain bikes and hybrids are rebranded Giants. (Raleigh and a few others apparently still make some frames in the U.S., and various high-end frames come from the U.S. and Europe.) The variations in frame geometry and top tube length are probably the most significant factors for matching a given bike to a prospective buyer.

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Yes
But GT was the best because its triple triangle, the seat tube crossing the tob tube, the geometry, you know, the front a little up respect the tail... that made that the models of this brand were more apreciated than others ones.-

Cannondale had (and have) a good work in the frames. They played with the dimension of the tubes with bigs down tubes and thin top tubes, they played best than others brands with the weldings: overdimensioned weldings.-

In the full suspension, meanwhile GT was launched GT LOBO and STS (i don't remember the names) Trek put in the market its models wiyh the revolutionary Y frame, the best, not expensive, light, and with the rear suspension in the right anlge.-

But then appear Specialized with the FSR models, they took the Y frame idea, but bending down the top sector of the frame given more space for legs, it was a wonderfull bike, rode one, i couln't purchase it but i rode one in Buenos Aires, it was incredible...

and so on...

I think that is posible say wich brand is best than other brand, geometry, welding, tubes... all in conjunction.-


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Giant and Specialized (I think it was Specialized) were under lawsuit becuase Giant copy exactly the 4 linkage suspension sistem. The courts in europe said that Giant not made copy, but the courts in the USA said the opposite. For that reason Giant might make a deal with Specialized, to be able to sell its bikes in the USA.-

Giant has a way different rear suspension design than Specialized. I
If the majority of frames are made in Taiwan, in the same factory, by the same people, how can one be superior to the other? The GT triple triangle was pretty cool, and some say it increased strength..But if GT is so good then why did they go bankrupt? Well, maybe because someone mishandled money...So does company personell become part of the equation? You can argue that Cannondale has the best because they have sophisticated tube designs, but Cannondale has siad that they are about making the most cutting edge bikes possible, and advancing technology,so yes, their bikes are definetly high quality, but there are only a few of them for under 1000 dollars.But Giant is all about bang for the buck, with some cool technology on the side. Since Giant has good deals there are a lot of them on the trails. Since there are more Giants than Cannondales, Giant will have more problems, becuase there are more bikes, so it would be hard to compare wouldn't it? So does how many bikes the company sells become part of the equation?? People who ride Ellsworth ride a different style than people who ride Litespeed..So Ellsworth there are more broken Ellsworths than Litespeeds, so does riding type factor in?? There are so many things that give each company a unique niche in the market, and give each company perks. I say, and will say to my death, that you can't classify bike companies on a scale of better or worse.

Originally posted by fubar5
...and will say to my death, that you can't classify bike companies on a scale of better or worse.

True Dat! Most major bike mfrs have a wide range of bikes in different price ranges, so if you want a bike with a better frame or componentry, you still have to pay pay pay. Frame geometry is more a preference or fit issue and not necessarily indicative of the quality of the bike.

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Wait. Tell me, you or some one else, the name of that factory in Taiwan, the brands for which that factory produce frames for.-

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I'm here trying found the magazine where i saw the lawsuit information... but is true. (Specialized or other brand).-

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In that case why we don't purchase bikes branded "MR. SUPERMARKET".-

[QUOTE]Originally posted by amigo
[B]1

Wait. Tell me, you or some one else, the name of that factory in Taiwan, the brands for which that factory produce frames for.-

......


1. I think it's owned by Giant (they were producing frames for others before they sold bikes under the Giant name). Certainly some of the low end Treks are identical frames to the low end Giants, just specced a little different and normally a tiny bit dearer.

Richard

Originally posted by amigo
In that case why we don't purchase bikes branded "MR. SUPERMARKET".-


Because of the component specs, because of assembly quality, becuase of customer service, becuase bikes at supermarkets are old technology that is crap. Supermarket bikes cost 125 bucks for a full suspension rig. Heck, you can hardly buy a decent fork for 125 bucks!!! There are stems that cost more than 125 bucks, there are saddles that cost more than 125 bucks. Also, Supermarket bikes are mostly made out of cheap steel, so are like anchors! Supermarket bikes are there for people who don't really know that cycling is a serious hobby.

Originally posted by fubar5



Because of the component specs, because of assembly quality, becuase of customer service, becuase bikes at supermarkets are old technology that is crap. Supermarket bikes cost 125 bucks for a full suspension rig. Heck, you can hardly buy a decent fork for 125 bucks!!! There are stems that cost more than 125 bucks, there are saddles that cost more than 125 bucks. Also, Supermarket bikes are mostly made out of cheap steel, so are like anchors! Supermarket bikes are there for people who don't really know that cycling is a serious hobby.

Very true Fubar, supermarket bikes, Huffys etc... are made for people who must've done something wrong, who are punished. These bikes are no 520, 853 reynolds or whatever...these bikes are made from 1 1/4" old plumbers pipe!!! :cry:

With bicycles, you quickly come to learn how much brand is an illusion. Having used my bike heavily over the years, I've replaced components over time. I've replaced the derailleur, brakes, cables, wheels, tires, tubes, handle bar grips,pedals, etc. It is now a bike with very different components than it had when it came out of the factory. So I don't find any value in talking about what "brand" my bike is. (In fact, I have my bike so covered in stickers that onlookers can longer see what brand is stamped onto my frame, and I do not tell them what brand it originally was.)

Giant - Specialized

Mountain Bike Action. April 2000, page 31

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It's the page 47, not 31, i'm sorry.-


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How do you know the frames come from Taiwan?

How do you know the supermarket frames are so bad, do you go to the supermarket with an expert in minerals or something like that?

Come on... the brand say a lot of a bike.-


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Yes, Mr. VC, but when you purchase it, your bike did not had the stickers.-

Chicago? Sweet home Chicago. The Blues Brothers home. (I think so).-

Yes the Giant suspension sytem uses the Horst Link, which is patented by Specialized, but that doesn't make the big S better.
How do I know supermarket frames are bad? C'mon man, thats a no brainer. How can they make a 125 dollar full suspension rig for and use ANYTHING of quality?
How do I know the frames are made in Taiwan? Well, look on the sticker on the frame, unless it indicates that the frame was made somewhere else, it was made in Taiwan. The sticker will probably say made in Taiwan, designed in the USA. Read any magazine and you will know that the majority of frames are made in Taiwan.
I still say that brand, other than supermarket, doesn't matter. All that matters is that every company offers different designs and specs, and that is what a decision to buy is made on. Some people like the Specialized FSR suspension which has no pedal bob and absorbs small bumps. Some people like Giant NRS becuase it has no pedal bob but because pedalling extends the shock the NRS feels more like a hardtail. The only compnaies I would say are better, are custom frame builders. And I only say that because then the buyer can get a bike specifically made for him or her.

Actually, Fubes, the cheapest frames are invariably built in the People's Republic of China. Dime-store bike frames are usually made in small, rural shops, whereas the better Chinese frames (Airbourne, etc) are usually made in factories in the larger cities.

Originally posted by D*Alex
Actually, Fubes, the cheapest frames are invariably built in the People's Republic of China. Dime-store bike frames are usually made in small, rural shops, whereas the better Chinese frames (Airbourne, etc) are usually made in factories in the larger cities.


That's even worse IMO.

It's worh noting that the country of manufacture does not necessarily have any bearing on the quality of the frame. There is no reason why Chinese or Taiwanese welders are any less capable than American welders. They might be paid less, of course, but they probably have more bicycle frame welding experience now than most welders in North America, considering how few bikes are actually made here.

Materials are another thing, but I think you'll find that decent-quality Chinese and Taiwanese bikes are being made from the same quality materials as bike in the US, Canada and Europe.

So don't get hung up on brand name or country of manufacture. If it's a crummy bike, then it's a crummy bike -- and it would be just as crummy if it was made in Pittsburgh.

my .02:

the bikes themselves dont make any mass-market manufacturer better than the next, ther service and after sale support do. After hearing some of the nightmare storeies from Trek Fuel 90 disc owners, I dropped any plans of buying one and went back to Giant and Specialized based on good experiances I have had in the past.

As far as names go, would you rather have a steel supermarket Huffy or an titanuim Airborne Lucky Strike? Does it matter that both companies are owned by parent company Huffy Sporrts?

AMIGO:
Right now the Horst-Link (Specialized FSR XC) full suspension is the best system. Alot of other manufacturers license this from Specialized.
The difference between which Horst-Link bike is better has to do with the quality and build of the various parts of the frame.
Titus, for example, has an excellent Horst-Link design because the parts are so stiff and has sealed bearings. This design allows no flex and inefficency in the design--which makes the Horst-Link work better and is more stable in downhill/ singletrack riding.
The new FSR XC S Works is really good now too.

All other full suspension designs allow for bobbing or driveline inefficency. I like the Cannondale Scalpel as a really advanced design (it is alot like the Full-Dynamix hardtail) but that is more of a softtail at 2.5 of travel.

I think the best bikes right now are from Titus, Specialized and Santa Cruz. That's just my opinion.
The best hardtail for me is the Specialized. That thing is like a ferrari- fast!
Not including custom makers because a really good custom bike made to fit will kick *** on any stock bike you buy.

Stumpjumper that is a good data: "Trek Fuel 90 disc", if you can explain it more for me i will be very thankful.-
About your question, i can't answer it, i don't have informations about that brands. But some products that come from the same owner sometimes are quite differents, example: forks RST (now the official name is RST USA) and MOZO.-

RacerX i saw TITUS but i never pay attention to that bikes, now you told me this i will going to get information about it.-
I agree in Specialized and Santa Cruz.-
"Not incluiding custom makers because..." i'm not so sure about that. You have good and bad welders...

Originally posted by amigo
"Not incluiding custom makers because..." i'm not so sure about that. You have good and bad welders...

I don't think people get into custom frame building unless they are top notch welders.

The first year (2001?) Trek's Fuel 90 dual suspension bike came equiped with disc brakes, Trek did a poor job engineering the rear brake mount. Trek used a single moon-shaped mounting point which, combined with Treks carbon fiber seat stays caused the bike to shake violently under hard braking. Most Fuel90 owners switched to v-brakes, which solved the problem. There were many (including a mailing list I was on) that tried to get Trek to fix the problem, but were constantly given the brush-off, usualy telling owners to sand the discs, change the fluid on the brakes, replace the pads, etc and that there was no problem. Fuel 90 discs abounded on Ebay for awhile. Trek finally admitted almost a year later that there was a problem, and offered a band-aid solution consisting of a long bar that bolted to the existing disc mount and the cantilever mount that provided a place to bolt the brake as well as stiffen the seatstay. The 2002 model uses a typical 2-bolt mount welded completely to the stay and has no problems..

I was looking at Giant NRS1's, Trek Fuel 90's and FSR's at the time and immediately dropped Trek from the list of future purchases, because of the way they treated the people who paid almost $2000 USD for these pieces of crap.



The Airborne vs. Huffy question was rhetorical. Airborne's are reasonably well made titanium mountain bikes that sell in shops and online between 700 - 2000 USD. Huffies are the worst of the supermarket bikes, poorly constructed, heavy, and just plain dangerous to take off road. Both brands are manufactured by parent company Huffy Sports overseas. My point was you cant make a judgement based on the name of the maker.

How about some of the other brands for discussion ?

Thorn and Orbit are two that come to mind who make state of the art tourers.

Dawes and Raleigh are two others that have been around since the turn of the last century, I'm sure we all remember the (Raleigh) Chopper, the bike every kid wanted in the early 1970's

Hey Amigo
When people think of a good bike, they have an information bias. That is, if you see the same brand of bike advertised all over the place you get to thinking that it must be the best. I think testers of bikes although they will swear up and down that I am wrong also are preasured by the name of the product they are testing, and perhaps they some times rank a bike a little higher than it should be. Now before evryone jumps on me the big companies like Specialized, GT, Giant, and Treck all have excelent bikes. but their are companies out their like Rocky Mountain who don't have the money to advertise as agressivly who are just as good, and perhaps don't always get the credit they deserve. Here is an added bonus Rocky Mountain builds their own frames and rims in Vancouver. All their frames and rims are sighned by the builder. Their quality control, warranty, and customer service is excelent. They also have a large line-up of bikes for every price range. So I guess what I'm trying to say is that you shouldn't pay any attention to those lists of yours. Look around at all bike companies, not just the big ones. Oh ya Amigo if you have a mailing adress I might have a stack of current bike magazines I might be willing to send you.

Stumpjumper thank you very much for the information. I archived it. "The question was rhetorical..." Now i understand. And about that: "...you can't make a judgement based on the name of the maker...", yes that is true, i'm in agree with that.-

Brains i'm sorry i don't know nothing about THORN and ORBIT.

Gavin that is a interesting point, but anyway, a brand not only became popular by the publicity but also by the characteristics and the results.-
I'm leaving in Argentina, in a little province called Jujuy. I'm full of old magazines, i don't have more place for magazines.- Thank you very much for your offer and disposition.-
If you read my first threat, at the end you can see that i'm aware about the qualities of Rocky Mountain.-

I'll stick up for Cannondale!

I've been riding Cannondales since my first M400 in 1991 and I have found their service and support to be second to none through four bike upgrades to my current 2001 Jekyll 700.

I love the Cannondales for the gorgeous frames and the simple, yet attractive paint schemes. I have never had a problem with aluminum being too stiff, but maybe that has to do with the fact that I'm a beefy sucker!

Anyway, Try our and test ride everything you can and you will find exactly what you are looking for eventually!

Fubar5 the issue is the advices that a welder could do about your requests, when you ask for a bike.-

FatBomber, i'm not a pofessional racer or an specialist, i never ride a full suspension cannondale, for that reason my opinion is only based on magazines articles and pictures. For me Cannondale put to much tubes in the frames, some times i ask myself if it necesary put those tubes, meanwhile others manufacturers with less material made very good things. The other point is the fork, i don't know why they put that HeadShox (i don't know if that's the name), or the Lefty. Why do they complicate the things?.-

I made a list for full suspension mtbs:

Specialized
Giant
Rocky Mountain
Titus
Kona

Originally posted by amigo
Fubar5 the issue is the advices that a welder could do about your requests, when you ask for a bike.-


What does that mean? You said there are good and bad welders.



Originally posted by amigo
I made a list for full suspension mtbs:

Specialized
Giant
Rocky Mountain
Titus
Kona



What about Santa Cruz's new VPP XC bike? Or Cannondales Scalpel?

Originally posted by amigo
Specialized
Giant
Rocky Mountain
Titus
Kona
With the exception of Titus, the vast majority of these brands' products -- with the exception of maybe the very top of the line bikes -- are made in the same plants, if not the very same singtle plant, in Taiwan. The build quiality is therefore the same.

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Fubar i mean: they are bike welders

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Velocipedio, i don't think that the products from the same manufacturer have the same quality: The geometry is not the same, the suspension system is not the same, the material is not the same... and perhaps the companies in USA have quality controls, perhaps different quality controls.-

If you have any information about that manufacturer in Taiwan please let me know it. I will be very thankful in know more about it.-

I don't put Santa Cruz in the list because i don't have data about its new bikes. I don't know if they are still using a high pivot system, and if they made innovations in the geometry. (i couldn't enter in its web site).-

Originally posted by amigo
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Fubar i mean: they are bike welders

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Velocipedio, i don't think that the products from the same manufacturer have the same quality: The geometry is not the same, the suspension system is not the same, the material is not the same... and perhaps the companies in USA have quality controls, perhaps different quality controls.-

If you have any information about that manufacturer in Taiwan please let me know it. I will be very thankful in know more about it.-

I don't put Santa Cruz in the list because i don't have data about its new bikes. I don't know if they are still using a high pivot system, and if they made innovations in the geometry. (i couldn't enter in its web site).-


1. I still don't get what you are getting at. Custom frame builders don't become custom frame builders unless they are top notch at welding, and top notch at making a bike exactly like the customer ordered it, that is why they are custom frame builders and can charge sky high prices.

2. Who cares is Santa Cruz still uses single pivot designs. Santa Cruz build the best single pivot suspension bikes available. I had the chance to ride on of my friends Superlight(single pivot) and I sprinted out of the saddle with choppy strokes, and I climbed with choppy strokes, and any bobbing there was wasn't enought to worry about. Plus single pivot designs are lower maintenance.

Amigo, as recently as two years ago, both Specialized and Schwinn were having the vast majority of their aluminum frames built for them by Giant Bicycles Co. of Taiwan. In addition to its own brand, Giant does contract manufacturing for most of the big names. In fact about a third of it manufacturing capacity is devoted to OEM production and that third represents almost the same volume as all of the LBS-quality bikes sold in the US. [Giant is that big.] I don't have any newer information, though I suppose if I paged through some recent copies of Bicycle Retailer, I might find something more up to date. In any event, I find it highly unlikely that the situation has changed much.

The bottom line is that Brand is pretty meaningless in terms of comparing bicycle quality. Are Scwinns better quality bikes than Specialized, or vice versa? Hell, tney're the same quality because they're made by the same people in the same place. The same thing applies to components. Is a Specialized crankset better than a Sugino crankset? Of course not! The Specialized crankset is made by Sugino.

You hjave to get beyond the idea of ranking the relative quality of brands, unless you're talking about the kind of things that the brands actually do -- like design, technical support, customer relations, warranty, supply and delivery. They have little to do with actual manufacturing.

Now this only applies to the big brands like Specialized, Trek, etc. Small companies still do much of their own manufactiuring.

Compare differences: different frame materials, the relative merits of different designs, different geometries. And remember that it's rarely a question of best or worst, but what's best for you?

IMO you can't even classify suspension design as being better. Every design floats someones boat. Take a Fisher Joshua, it got one chanring in Bicycling last year. But Joe has a Joshua and he likes it.

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Velocipedio, thank you very much for the information, Jhon E mentioned that before but without details.-

Yes, that's what i'm doing, i'm comparing differences.-

If you think the best bike for you is a bike whithout wheels, or whithout handlebar... well, yes, is the best bike for you. But it is not the best bike.-


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Fubar5, the last news i have from Santa Cruz came from the first months of 2000, i mean that i don't know how is Santa Cruz now. Yes, Santa Cruz was one of my favorite bike brands.-
I think the four linkage system is best than the others. But is imposible classify a bike only by its suspension system.-

Amigo, why don't you explain to us just how a bike can be the BEST? If the best bike for me is a bike without wheels, then the best bike isn't the best bike in my book. Are you trying to make a list for yourself? For you own needs? Or are you trying to sum up the bike industry with this "best bike manufacturer" list?

I agree. There is no "best bike" as all bikes are subject to the opinion of riders and their substantial whimsy.


:p

The perfect bike dosen't exist, but you can find a bike that approach to the perfect bike, That's the idea.-

Three principals things you want have in your bike: Stability, durability and low weight.-

Stability: You don't want fall down, you want a bike that give you the control to maneuver in all types of soils. (For example: That's one of the mains reasons why were developed full suspension bikes).-

Durability: You want a bike that resist the hits without dents and splits. (For example: That's the reason why alloys are more used than pure materials).-

Low weight:(For example: that's one of the reasons why aluminium is more used than steel).-

The perfect bike would be that with 100% stability, 100% durability and 100% light. But this is impossible, then you need find the best combination of the three.-

Now, for me (¡For me!) in the full suspension mountain bike, the bikes approached to the perfect bike are the Specialized, because give you very good stability (4-bars linkage), and a good top tube length, not so long, not so short (they offer differents larges). They are working with M4 an alloy of sillicon, copper, magnesium, and vanadium (i'm looking for more information). All in a good not too heavy package.-

First off let me assure you that there is nothing wrong at all with Taiwanese made frames and the Taiwanese have been producing bike frames for many years, plus also producing frames for many overseas companies as well without a doubt. Lets look at some brands like Specialized whom are American and Avanti whom are from New Zealand, but tell me where their bike are made Taiwan. Oh yes and also Trek, this is a purely US company but beleive me I've seen Trek bikes made in Taiwan, and who rides a Trek, well you guessed it Lance the man himself, though I do beleive that there are still some Treks made in the US, but I can rest assure that this will all soon shift later to Taiwan.

Companies and businesses are very touchy about their profits on what they make and what final profit they make at the end of the year or so on, really speaking they are not going to give a damn about you winning the Tour De France etc etc, but would rather see their profit margins rise by the end of the year.

Even if a company like Cannondale who claims that their bikes are still all handmade in the USA, wore lets say starting to a slump or drop in their annual profit margins, due to manufacturing costs, labour costs etc etc etc, I can rest assure that their manufacturing facility will shift to Taiwan. Nothing wrong with this just they will save heaps more money a year.

So the question arises why should Trek or some other US, European or what ever country pay someone $50,000 a year to make their frames and welding etc etc, when they can get a Taiwanese or Taiwan to do it at half the cost, and the job can be done just as good if not better. Also we have to realise that Taiwan is a very well developing country and they have alot of expertise at bike manufacturing, and also talk about technology who are the biggest manufacturers of computers components and motherboards in the world, the Taiwanese.

And finally when you come to think of it, it's really the frame that is manufactured there, all the rest of the components like groupset, seat, wheels etc etc are made by other overseas companies.

I once asked a friend of mine this question, what is faster a Ferrari or a Subaru WRX, he said a Ferrari, I asked him again if not another 3 times, he still insisted on Ferrari. Then I said to him, ok you get your Ferrari and I will get the Subaru WRX and we will both place them on a rally track and lets see then who will be faster, well I know the Ferrari will not last, why because it's a purely road sports car.

Coming back to bikes, we really can't judge and say that one manufacturer is better than the other, they all have to compete against each other. And also if people can criticize Taiwanese made bikes, why is it that alot of the Taiwanese bikes have won many racers, like one the Italian teams or rider who rides a Specialized.

When it comes to the end of the day, you have to place your backside on that saddle and peddle the thing, and always remember that.