Foo - Warning!!!

Your local internet provider may not have or offer &/or ever have or intend on offering spyware protection!

Which is a bad idea IMO.

My wife & I ended up taking our computer to a local computer shop here in town where it spent a week being looked at, diagnosed & after they figured out what the problem was having all of the spyware removed from it. There were 59 spyware programs loaded on the hard drive with hundreds of crap & garbage files attached to each one. To fix the problem they had to format the entire hard drive.

Luckily the hard drive is partitioned & the spyware crap was on the C drive where the software is loaded & not on the D drive where the files are stored. So it did not take as long & we did not lose any important files we had stored.

We did have to load some of the software. Like the sound card driver & Microsoft Office 2000. But otherwise it was not that big of a deal. Especially considering it was the only way to effectivley get rid of the spyware crap & solve the problem. Not to mention the most economical way. Actual bench time was 1.5 hours at $45.00 an hour, so it wasn't to bad.

Why did this happen? Well the explanation is simple. My former internet provider, (Cableone), refused to & still refuses to protect their internet customers from sypware crap. They have no problem protecting customers from spam mail & viruses transmitted via e-mail. But when it comes to spyware crap forget it. So I dropped their service like a bad habit & told them what I thought of them & their internet service in no uncertain terms. As you may have guessed Cableone is also the local cable TV provider. So their internet service is offered as cable modem. That also contributed to the problem. Because unlike dial-up the modem is always on which allows spyware crap to infiltrate a persons computer, unless it is put on stand-by. Of course I was not told this until it was to late, by Cableone no less.

The problems the spyware crap caused includes but is not limited to: using excess RAM, causing problems with the scanner & printer software, causing problems with other executable files as well. For example the CD ROM would just open on it's own or a document would just print out with out being told to do so, & Microsoft Word or Excel didn't even have to opened & running when this happened. It is like the computer developed an artificial intelligance of it's own & decided to do it's own thing when ever & how ever it wanted to. Eventually it would not even boot up at all.

So since we had the problem fixed we are now with AOL for an internet service. And as long as we stick with their web browser we have the spyware protection. As much as I'd like to use a local provider, to keep my money in my community locally, right now we do not have much of a choice in the matter.

IMO spyware is now worse then viruses. For one a virus is usually only transmitted via e-mail & it is real easy to defeat & eliminate a virus. All you have to do is make sure you have a good anti-virus software & keep it updated on a regular basis. Hell most of them update themselves automatically, so it's almost a no-brainer. Not the case with spyware crap. Spyware crap is a lot trickier & as far as I'm concerned now, more dangerous then a virus. Viruses require certain protocals to be transmitted from place to place. Spyware crap seems to have not set requirement as to how a PC is infected with them. It could be as simple as visting a seemingly reputable web site.

I think that is how my PC was infected with spyware crap. The way it was explained to me is you could be visiting a reputable web site that has spyware hiding & lurking within it. The spyware searches & finds "holes" to leak through on to your PC via what ever web browser you're using. Typically Internet Explorer is a bad one to use because spyware crap is notorious to leaking through it onto your PC. IE is the browser I was using.

So let this be a warning to you fine folks out there. Check & see if your local internet provider offers or intends on offering spyware protection. If they don't you may want to consider switching to one that does.

P.S. It is taking some getting used to with using AOL. And I'm sure the more I use it the better. Also the problems with my PC & not having internet service for a while was part of the reason I was not posting as much, if anyone had noticed that is.

Why do you expect an ISP to protect you? If you don't install crap programs and you keep your OS up to date, you don't have problems with spyware. Run AdAware now and again to remove any that does somehow get through and always keep your virus definitions current. Don't open files sent to you, even by friends, unless you know that they intend to send you the file.

I have two windoze computers and several linux boxes in my house and have very little problem with spyware.

AOL... the ultimate user approved spyware!

:D

Why do you expect an ISP to protect you? If you don't install crap programs and you keep your OS up to date, you don't have problems with spyware. Run AdAware now and again to remove any that does somehow get through and always keep your virus definitions current. Don't open files sent to you, even by friends, unless you know that they intend to send you the file.

I have two windoze computers and several linux boxes in my house and have very little problem with spyware.

First of all if I pay the kind of money I was to Cableone & am currently paying to AOL they sure as hell better protect me from spyware crap. Hell they have no problem protecting customers from viruses so why not extend the protection to spyware crap as well?

Second, my OS is kept constantly up to date.

Third, I never installed crap programs on my computer. At least not by my own hand. And the crap programs that did show up were a result of the spyware crap that infested my PC & worked in the back ground with out my knowledge or consent.

Fourth, my virus definitions, like my OS software are kept current on a regular basis.

Finally, I NEVER open files sent to me, even by friends unless I know the content & I know they intended me to have the file.

While AOL has a good spyware protection built in to their software it is not 100% effective. But it will help a lot better then what I had before.

That was more then any spyware, you've got a serious virus going on. It was commanding your computer to complete tasks. Someone had or has control over your computer.

Taking personal responsibility for the things in one's life seems to be on the decline in society... it's so much easier to blame someone else.

The people who make TV's have no responsiblity to prevent you from turning to that channel with the dudes that make out with other dudes either. Why should the ISP be any different?
I pay $39.95 a month for a 1.5mb/s pipe, what comes down that pipe is my responsibility.

First of all if I pay the kind of money I was to Cableone & am currently paying to AOL they sure as hell better protect me from spyware crap. Hell they have no problem protecting customers from viruses so why not extend the protection to spyware crap as well?


Not to put down your original point or anything, but the kind of money I paid for my road bike or say, a pair of HID lights, shouldn't that prevent me from going into a pothole? No. I might spot it but ultimately, I'm the one behind the wheel, or handlebars.

You went with AOL for ease of problems? :rolleyes:
Just goto download.com and find adaware and spyware blaster and download them. You should be good to go after that.
Also find the "Mozilla - Have you swapped yet" thread in the FOO forum I believe and read that.

That was more then any spyware, you've got a serious virus going on. It was commanding your computer to complete tasks. Someone had or has control over your computer.

I would agree with you, except there were no viruses found. Just the spyware crap.

But, let's say there were viruses. A virus could allow someone access to my hard drive & personal computer files, especially through a cable modem & line? If that was the case, (like I said there were no viruses found), & someone did have control over my computer why just the malicious & nuisance stuff? Like executables seemingly going out of control. I mean why not something really harmful, like stealing my bank records & other sensitive personal information, which are, or at least were stored on my PC. I'm talking about stuff like my PC remembering passwords when I log on to my bank account online. Also if this ever happened wouldn't the person on the other end who supposidly had access/control over my computer be able to see what I was doing on my end, which means he or she also knows what user names & passwords I used to access things like my bank account info.?

None of this ever happened. For one like I said because there were no viruses found, just the spyware crap. And 2 there have never been any problems with my bank accounts or anything else of a sensitive &/or personal nature.

I doubt the problem was any more extensive then spyware crap.

I pretty much believe what the tech. at the computer shop informed me as to what the problems were. And now they are solved.

Guys....A computer is like a car.

It's nobody's responsibility but the owner's to keep it in good running shape.

This means get spyware scanners, virus scanners, and diagnostic/repair utilities, and USE THEM.

I have to deal with my housemates lack of computer maintenance screwing up the network all the time....two of them who constantly get viruses, spyware, and everything else on their machines...one got angry when my fix nuked her netnanny (for some reason she had NO cd's for ANYTHING)....as far as I'm concerned, that's all on her...she not only did not maintain her machine, but she had no recovery plan whatsoever, nor the media to rebuild from scratch....that's about as bad as it gets...and if I'm doing it for free...then if anyhting gets damaged, I'll try to fix it, but if I can't that's it.

It's about $40 for a good virus scanner, and most good anti-spyware utils (ad-aware, spybot s&D, and spyware killer) are free for personal use...so really there is no excuse. Oh, and it's about $40 for a good backup program. Backing up your system drive form time to time is very important.

...oh, and if anyone needs the MSJVM removal tool, PM me...that tool is not for the average user since it is permanent once used, but if you want to be rid of MSJVM, and the problems that come from it, then go ahead....just be sure you do not do anyhting that requires it. If you use your machine for work as well, verify with them as well. I use this on all my home builds, since MSJVM has some very bad security holes.

AOL, HA! Out of the frying pan, into the fire.

Ever hear of personal responsibility?

<------14 computers running 24/7 with a 2mb wireless ISP (local company) for a little over 3 years and no problem with spyware, viruses nor trojans.

1 don't use IE. Use Mozilla or Opera
2 don't use Outhouse Express
3 Get Spybot
4 Get Ad-aware
5 Get a router, use a firewall, hard and soft
6 Get a decent AV and keep it updated

Some of you think I did nothing at all to prevent this from happening. NO, quite the opposite in fact. I did everything I could have & then some. I guess I should have mentioned this fact before hand. The list is to numerous to mention, but it does include downloading & using things like the adaware, etc.

But guess what? It still happened.

The final step I took was taking my PC to a shop & having it fixed.

It just goes to show that no matter what you do this crap still happens.

So yes in part I blame my former ISP, & will continue to do so. They should have done & should do something to help prevent this from happening. They did not & continue to refuse to do so. What can you expect by a company who's parent company is the Washington Post. Hopefully my new one will not dissapoint me or piss me off like my former local one did. And hopefully using AOL will be better at preventing this crap from occuring again.

But please do not lay all of the blame for this on me. I took responsibility & tried to prevent & fix it, it still didn't work. Why? I don't know. But it never should have happened because the ISP should have done something to prevent it in the first place. I mean how long has AOL, Earthlink & other similar ISP's been offering their service with the spyware preventer? For a while, right? Well then why not local ISP's following suit as well?

I personally don't see how the ISP is to blame. They offer a service of an internet connection and that is what you got.

Do you expect the morgage company or landlord to lock your door for you? :rolleyes:

N_C, I hear ya and would love more tools to fight spam... like a friggin' baseball bat and handcuffs *evilgrin*

Part of the problem is that spyware piggy-backs a lot of other stuff. Sometimes with your "permission", so it's very difficult for the ISP to stop it.

For example, Kazaa's user agreement states in paragraph 66 that they have the right to poke you up the butt without lube. Seriously, p66 says they're gonna dump crap on your PC. So, people click okay without having read it.

sucks, i know.

Ok, let's look at this another way. That is looking at it from the angle of virus protection by an ISP. When ISP's first started offering internet service to customers there was no protection from viruses. Then all of a sudden viruses becamse a huge problem & pressure was put on all ISP's to provide protection from them. ANd now, low & behold you would be hard pressed to find an ISP that does offer protection from viruses transmitted via e-mail. Oh & BTW the same now goes for spam e-mail.

For those of you who say it is not the ISP's responsibility to provide spyware protection but instead it should fall on the end user of the internet service, l;et me ask you something. Shouldn't also be saying it is not the ISP's reponsiblity to provide virus & spam mail protection too? Or is that where you draw the line? Where you thing an ISP should provide virus & spam mail protection & prevention but not when it comes to spyware? If this is how you think & believe aren't you being hypocrites in this regard?

As far as I'm concerned if an ISP is going to provide virus & span mail protection/prevention then they should also provide spyware protection/prevention. And I'm not just talking about the national ISP's either. I'm speaking about all of them. In other words it should be all or nothing at all. Right now the only ISP's that I know of that offer protection/prevention from all of the bad crap that a person's PC can be infected/infested with is the national providers, like AOL, Juno, Earthlink, etc.

N_C, I hear ya and would love more tools to fight spam... like a friggin' baseball bat and handcuffs *evilgrin*

Part of the problem is that spyware piggy-backs a lot of other stuff. Sometimes with your "permission", so it's very difficult for the ISP to stop it.

For example, Kazaa's user agreement states in paragraph 66 that they have the right to poke you up the butt without lube. Seriously, p66 says they're gonna dump crap on your PC. So, people click okay without having read it.

sucks, i know.

Opie, if I recall correctly there were similar problems with attached e-mail viruses as well. But a way was figured out on how to prevent & eliminate the problem. The same can be done with spyware, the technology is there. Hell we all pay a good portion of our hard earned money to use the internet. So why not have something to show for it from every ISP out there. Especially the local ones.

These ISP's offer these services to give the customer that "safe warm fuzzy feeling" but to be honest with you I don't need an ISP or anyone else hold my hand on the Internet. I'm responsible if someone hacks my computer and I don't keep it locked down or install that freeware without reading the user agreement and load it full of spyware.

I truly believe AOL and other babysitter ISP's serve a purpose and have a large market.

I've been an active user on a free PC Tech forum for over 4 years and I see this all the time.

But please do not lay all of the blame for this on me. I took responsibility & tried to prevent & fix it, it still didn't work. Why? I don't know. But it never should have happened because the ISP should have done something to prevent it in the first place. I mean how long has AOL, Earthlink & other similar ISP's been offering their service with the spyware preventer? For a while, right? Well then why not local ISP's following suit as well?

Of course the blame lies with you, and whoever else uses your computer. If you don't know why you were unsuccessful at preventing the infection, you need to do some research and find out. Just because you have AOL and use their browser does not mean you are invulnerable to becoming reinfected again. AOL cannot implement changes to block spyware until they detect and identify new methods of attack and develop software fixes to prevent them. This can take significant time. The same goes for email trojans and operating system exploits that seem to appear daily.

You surely don't rely on the police department of your city to keep intruders out of your house? Even the best police department recommends you install and use good locks on your doors and (especially) Windoze.

Well unfortunatly Tin Man, not everyone is like you. Or is that a fortunate thing? ;)

There are either those that do everything they possibly know of to help prevent this crap from happening, like in my case, & it still happens anyway.

Or, there are those who don't have a clue, don't read user agreements, etc. & probably just plain don't care what happens or why & even how.

So it then falls to the ISP's.

And yes large national ISP's do probably do serve a purpose to have a large market. But so what. That really doesn't bother me nearly as much as the crap that infested my PC despite all the measures I took to prevent it.

Wasn't there some kind of federal mandate put forth by the FCC or some other federal organization or group requiring ISP's to do something to help prevent virus attacks? Maybe the same thing needs to happen regarding spyware infestations. Granted spyware does not transmit itself via e-mail, but instead when ever you visit certain web sites, even safe & legitimate ones.

Well unfortunatly Tin Man, not everyone is like you. Or is that a fortunate thing? ;)


Yup I'm the pick of the litter, but that is another story ;)

http://forum.pcmech.com is my home on the net

Well put supcom. Spyware can be downloaded through websites you visit even which makes it even more so your responsibility instead of the ISP giving you software a month after it discovers the problem. ISP's do not protect you from viruses. I could send you one via a hotmail account, which you could download and unless you have software on your computer you would most likely have a virus the next day.
AOL, earthlink and so on are just bundling software together and offering it to you. I have had hotmail , yahoo and aol email accounts and without ever using the email addresses for anything my AOL inbox was full within 3 months of having it, with spam. As much as AOL seems like a blessing by bundling everything together. it can really make a mess in my experience.
Your local ISP may just be a small office space stacked to the ceiling with equipment instead of the R/D departments AOL may have.

I would agree with you, except there were no viruses found. Just the spyware crap.

But, let's say there were viruses. A virus could allow someone access to my hard drive & personal computer files, especially through a cable modem & line? If that was the case, (like I said there were no viruses found), & someone did have control over my computer why just the malicious & nuisance stuff? Like executables seemingly going out of control. I mean why not something really harmful, like stealing my bank records & other sensitive personal information, which are, or at least were stored on my PC. I'm talking about stuff like my PC remembering passwords when I log on to my bank account online. Also if this ever happened wouldn't the person on the other end who supposidly had access/control over my computer be able to see what I was doing on my end, which means he or she also knows what user names & passwords I used to access things like my bank account info.?

None of this ever happened. For one like I said because there were no viruses found, just the spyware crap. And 2 there have never been any problems with my bank accounts or anything else of a sensitive &/or personal nature.

I doubt the problem was any more extensive then spyware crap.

I pretty much believe what the tech. at the computer shop informed me as to what the problems were. And now they are solved.

If your computer was so full of spyware, how do you know that your financial data was not compromised? All of your passwords, credit card numbers, bank account data, etc, could have easily been transmitted to Inner Elbonia for all you know. Just beacuse some crooks haven't used your VISA account to buy some plutonium yet doesn't mean they won't. If I were in your position, I would change my bank accounts and credit card numbers immediately. I would also change any online financial passwords RIGHT NOW if you haven't already done so. If your Social Security number is stored on your computer, you might want to give the SS Administration in your area a call to discuss possible identity theft prevention. I would get a current copy of my credit report now and every month for a while to make sure that nobody is opening new credit accounts in my name.

One of the things that spyware could easily do is monitor every keytstroke you make and report them to wherever. Conside the potential ramifications of that.

In short, you should assume that anything and everything on your hard disk may have been compromised and anything you have done online since you were infected has been recorded by someone with less than honorable intentions. The theft of just credit card numbers is a HUGE racket that goes largely unreported. Identity theft is certainly a major issue that you want to prevent, not cure.

Well put supcom. Spyware can be downloaded through websites you visit even which makes it even more so your responsibility instead of the ISP giving you software a month after it discovers the problem. ISP's do not protect you from viruses. I could send you one via a hotmail account, which you could download and unless you have software on your computer you would most likely have a virus the next day.
AOL, earthlink and so on are just bundling software together and offering it to you. I have had hotmail , yahoo and aol email accounts and without ever using the email addresses for anything my AOL inbox was full within 3 months of having it, with spam. As much as AOL seems like a blessing by bundling everything together. it can really make a mess in my experience.
Your local ISP may just be a small office space stacked to the ceiling with equipment instead of the R/D departments AOL may have.

I too have had an email account receive spam even though it had never been used for anything. I have always wondered how that happened. The userame was fairly long and not a common word. Random mailings would have to be humongous to have found the account by chance. I wondered if some spammers weren't buying username lists from insiders at the ISP. It was a major ISP not a mom and pop operation too.

Why is it the ISP's responsibility to step in if users don't read USER Agreements. Key word being USER. If you want to install something you found on a website somewhere and didn't read the agreement then whose fault is it? People can't keep being spoon-fed.
If people read user agreements we would maybe see less spyware as it would be circulated less and companies like kazaa and real would not try to send out information in realtime by hiding those terms in the user agreement.

supcom- I know with aol and the old hotmal accounts I used to get a lot of mail that was forwarded in batches like
david@aol.com
david1@aol.com and would just generate various combinations. Some of the TO and CC BCC fields had long lists of these generated emails when I would open them up.

Do ISP's write their own spam filter/virus protection programs or do they just bundle something like McAffee into their Installation/setup disks?

Unfortunately, the ISP can't block spyware without taking nearly all of the functionality from your internet connection. They may choose to block some of the obscure ports, like 445 (Sasser), but that's usually only in response to particular viruses, rather than spyware, which typically gets onto your system using common ports (like 80, which is what you use to view this page).

Now, I don't know what AOL is offering currently, but I imagine it's primary feature is a pop-up blocker, which will help keep ad-aware from being visible but not necessarily stop it from using system resources. It's probably possible for them to offer limited protection against spyware by not allowing known spyware programs to install, but that wouldn't catch it all, and with spyware, unlike ad-ware, you probably wouldn't be aware if it were running. Also, AOL has quite a bit of resources to use to develop this software. Local ISP's have enough money to buy and maintain equipment, and that's about it.

For ad/spyware to get on your system, its installation has to be initiated by your computer. Of course, no one would intentionally say "infect me!" but plenty of people get tricked into doing it by clicking on a pop-up dialogue to "speed up your internet" or give their opinion on "should Bush be re-elected?" Internet Explorer makes the problem worse since there are vulnerabilities that make it possible to trick Explorer into initiating a download and installation (boo ActiveX). To add another avenue of concern, some viruses will download and install ad/spyware as part of their dirty work.

Ah viruses...what a joy! There's lots of ways for these guys to get on your box. Bad email attachments, windows vulnerabilities (that's why you want Windows Update set to automatic unless you're an uber-nerd), local area networks, etc. In some ways, you are correct, most viruses hardly even seem bad anymore. They usually don't drain all your memory, they seldom wipe your hard drive, and they almost never cover the screen with pop-ups. In some ways they can be worse though. Some of the most famous currently do nothing more than constantly broadcast attempts to spread over the internet. Doesn't sound very bad, but they do it so fast that it uses all your bandwidth and can bring a shared network like the one at my school to its knees. We've had to cut out quite a bit of functionality to keep it to controllable level. Others offer the programmer who wrote them a way to take complete control over your computer if they choose to do so. That's bad.

I hope this helps you understand what's went on with your computer a little better. Honestly, there's almost nothing Cableone could have done, and doing those few things would have tradeoffs. Ultimately, only safe browsing habits can save you. Also, don't take tinman's or Opie's comments personally. They probably learned what they know the same way I did...it got on their box.

AOL for those who know nothing about the internet and never will. Sorry NC but there have been plenty of better alternatives mentioned yet you choose to equip yourself with the Walmart bike of ISP's. It's your choice, but people WILL rag on you for it.

Ok, let's look at this another way. That is looking at it from the angle of virus protection by an ISP. When ISP's first started offering internet service to customers there was no protection from viruses. Then all of a sudden viruses becamse a huge problem & pressure was put on all ISP's to provide protection from them. ANd now, low & behold you would be hard pressed to find an ISP that does offer protection from viruses transmitted via e-mail. Oh & BTW the same now goes for spam e-mail.

For those of you who say it is not the ISP's responsibility to provide spyware protection but instead it should fall on the end user of the internet service, l;et me ask you something. Shouldn't also be saying it is not the ISP's reponsiblity to provide virus & spam mail protection too? Or is that where you draw the line? Where you thing an ISP should provide virus & spam mail protection & prevention but not when it comes to spyware? If this is how you think & believe aren't you being hypocrites in this regard?

As far as I'm concerned if an ISP is going to provide virus & span mail protection/prevention then they should also provide spyware protection/prevention. And I'm not just talking about the national ISP's either. I'm speaking about all of them. In other words it should be all or nothing at all. Right now the only ISP's that I know of that offer protection/prevention from all of the bad crap that a person's PC can be infected/infested with is the national providers, like AOL, Juno, Earthlink, etc.

Really I think it is NOT the ISPs responsibility to deal with viruses unless they are originating from their users. Same goes for spam. My thought on it is the ISP is offering you a road, a road to other people's houses. Now, if your car is left at the jone's co shopping mall with the door unlocked, or unfixed if a problem with teh lock was known, and random_thief_01 takes it/keys it/etc...how is it the road owner's problem?

The way I see it, I don't fully blame the individual, since there is a lot to know...just don't start throwing blame at the middleman...if you got spyware, find out where it came from, and jsut dont go there anymore if it bugs you that bad. Anyways, find out which one you had and how it worked...if it was coolwebsearch, that one for example uses an MSJVM exploit (there are tons of exploits the variants have been known to use) to infect machines, and the only way to keep it from coming is to either use mozilla/netscape/opera or remove MSJVM from your machine.

Basically, blaming the ISP is like shooting the messenger...shoot the author if you can find him instead.

...the modem is always on which allows spyware crap to infiltrate a persons computer, unless it is put on stand-by. Of course I was not told this until it was to late, by Cableone no less.
How long did you have your cable modem? One of the selling points of them (from what I've seen of the advertisements) is the fact that they're always on. Either Cableone is marketing them differently, or you didn't read the advertisement. Since I'm sure you weren't told how to "turn on" the connection, how did you think it worked? Did you think it just "knew" when you wanted to be online and established the connection?

As for spyware, 59 is low. I know/have heard of people with spyware counts close to 1000. I'm extremely careful with my web surfing, have 2 spyware checkers/blockers, up-to-date virus software, and a firewall on my T1 connection at home, and I still get spyware. About the only thing I'm doing wrong is using IE. I run spyware checks at worst every other day. I don't expect my ISP to provide protection because I don't expect them to control my mouse clicks. Part of being a responsible computer owner is doing regular maintenance, just like with a bike. If you didn't check your tire pressure regularly/before every ride, would you complain that the bike shop/bike manufacturer/tire manufacturer didn't tell you to do so, that tires lose air over time?

this is a rough crowd ;) I suspect the meek majority will remain silent because they and I can relate to N C's experience :(

Most of the personal responsibility bandwagon appears to be from the select few that know their computers and associated systems well and have learned to cope with the tech menaces. You have our admiration and envy ;) However, the majority of computer users are "casual" users with limited interest, if any, in keeping up with the tech nuances for maintenance and so on. Or we have other things that are more important for our time - like riding :rolleyes: We simply want to log on and work or play. So it seems to me that the loser in this specific case is the ISP who lost a subscriber. How many others will follow. The ISP or associated service/product that wins is the one who provides what the consumer wants and will pay for. Most market winners are the ones that serve the needs of the majority and not the fringes. We all like to whip on MS and AOL but how many can fault their market approach and profits :D

this is a rough crowd ;) I suspect the meek majority will remain silent because they and I can relate to N C's experience :(

Most of the personal responsibility bandwagon appears to be from the select few that know their computers and associated systems well and have learned to cope with the tech menaces. You have our admiration and envy ;) However, the majority of computer users are "casual" users with limited interest, if any, in keeping up with the tech nuances for maintenance and so on. Or we have other things that are more important for our time - like riding :rolleyes: We simply want to log on and work or play. So it seems to me that the loser in this specific case is the ISP who lost a subscriber. How many others will follow. The ISP or associated service/product that wins is the one who provides what the consumer wants and will pay for. Most market winners are the ones that serve the needs of the majority and not the fringes. We all like to whip on MS and AOL but how many can fault their market approach and profits :D

Using your analogy, if I'm understanding you correctly, the person having 'casual' sex isn't responsible for their contraction or spreading of STD's. While the expirenced players must keep the traffic clean. And, if a 'casual' should pass on or contract an STD from a 'player' it's the fault of who/what/how?

Like it or not, the internet is a cesspool of spys, intruders, and viruses and it is ultimatly the users respsonsibility to protect his/her computer/s from the denizens of the cesspool. Would a inner city, high crime district resident leave their home un-locked while they went to work? No! Neither should ANY person with internet access.

In the time it has taken me to pen this reply anyone could find, download, install and run any number of spyware monitors, firewalls and A/V programs. Sheesh! It's not rocket science. Just common sense.

Don't piss in the pool, and make sure the person next to you dosen't either.

All I'm saying is that there's a market opportunity for service providers to offer a service that helps the majority of the computer users that don't have the inclination or time to sort this out for themselves - in this case spyware. Tomorrow it'll be something else and the next day something else again. If they don't they lose business as evidenced by the reaction by N C and probaly many others. I'm not advocating that folks don't have personal responsibilities - of course they do, unless you think like a personal injury lawyer ;)

I could build on the sex analogy but won't go there on this forum :p

****** science is only a science to the ****** scientists, to everyone else it's a marvelous mystery. Everybody has a list for ****** :D

Or you could just get a Mac and not have to worry about any of this...

macs have their own viruses and spyware to deal with...you just never hear of it since macs represent a minority in the industry.

as far as those who need help with their maintenance...that's where a good computer shop can come in. Some of the better mom&pop shops I knew would actually come to your house up to twice a year to defrag your drives, do any backups if you want, and in general give it a full tune-up....that is if you bought one of their ccomputers. It was a pretty good idea really.

Why should the ISPs reinvent the wheel? The two spyware checkers I use have scheduling features that are idiot-proof, enabling one to run them as often as desired, and one of them even is an active spyware blocker. And they're free. Besides, I've had issues with ISPs "proprietary" software that they recommend using, I'd rather be in control of what happens on my computer, including the things that protect it.

Why should the ISPs reinvent the wheel? The two spyware checkers I use have scheduling features that are idiot-proof, enabling one to run them as often as desired, and one of them even is an active spyware blocker. And they're free. Besides, I've had issues with ISPs "proprietary" software that they recommend using, I'd rather be in control of what happens on my computer, including the things that protect it.You'd better believe it.

Using your analogy, if I'm understanding you correctly, the person having 'casual' sex isn't responsible for their contraction or spreading of STD's. While the expirenced players must keep the traffic clean. And, if a 'casual' should pass on or contract an STD from a 'player' it's the fault of who/what/how?

Beleive it or not, I heard the professional porn industry is really good about the health of their workers. A while back there was a news item about the whole porn industry being put on hold for like 2 months because a couple of their employees had contracted HIV and they sent everyone to be checked before continuing the filming.

Well unfortunatly Tin Man, not everyone is like you. Or is that a fortunate thing? ;)

There are either those that do everything they possibly know of to help prevent this crap from happening, like in my case, & it still happens anyway.

Or, there are those who don't have a clue, don't read user agreements, etc. & probably just plain don't care what happens or why & even how.

So it then falls to the ISP's.

And yes large national ISP's do probably do serve a purpose to have a large market. But so what. That really doesn't bother me nearly as much as the crap that infested my PC despite all the measures I took to prevent it.

Wasn't there some kind of federal mandate put forth by the FCC or some other federal organization or group requiring ISP's to do something to help prevent virus attacks? Maybe the same thing needs to happen regarding spyware infestations. Granted spyware does not transmit itself via e-mail, but instead when ever you visit certain web sites, even safe & legitimate ones.


May I respectfully suggest that maybe if you are this mad, then maybe there are others as mad as well? I am unaware of any ISP that currently offers the kind of protection you're looking for. Also, as far as I know, the feds do not mandate that ISPs regulate/restrict SPAM and/or virii. They have chosen to do this of their own free will (in the interest of the bottom line). The point to which I'm slowly driving is: vote with your dollar. Find an ISP that offers the services you require. If none is available, write a business plan, find investors & go into business. I'm serious. I think there are a ton of people that don't want to do all the things others here have suggested you do. You might make a bundle.

Otherwise, maybe try buying an Apple or installing Linux. Though note that those alternate platforms are unliikely to be SPAM/Virus/Trojan free forever.

Good Luck!

May I respectfully suggest that maybe if you are this mad, then maybe there are others as mad as well? I am unaware of any ISP that currently offers the kind of protection you're looking for. Also, as far as I know, the feds do not mandate that ISPs regulate/restrict SPAM and/or virii. They have chosen to do this of their own free will (in the interest of the bottom line). The point to which I'm slowly driving is: vote with your dollar. Find an ISP that offers the services you require. If none is available, write a business plan, find investors & go into business. I'm serious. I think there are a ton of people that don't want to do all the things others here have suggested you do. You might make a bundle.

Otherwise, maybe try buying an Apple or installing Linux. Though note that those alternate platforms are unliikely to be SPAM/Virus/Trojan free forever.

Good Luck!

I suspect that the main method AOL uses to prevent spyware is by supplying an AOL branded version of Mozilla web browser. Mozilla is the offshoot of Netscape which was purchased by AOL a few years ago. Much of the Mozilla core development team is (was?) comprised of Netscape folks. If AOL supplies mozilla then users are given a pretty good level of protection simply because Mozilla does not support ActiveX. Of course, one could get the same protection without switching to AOL simply by downloading and installing the current version of Mozilla (or Firebird). It's free, like all the best things in life.

It may be that AOL provides some additional protection through the use of a proxy filter that blocks access to spyware sites. But theres not much they can do about users downloading and installing spyware laden programs like Kazaa.

Do you know how slow an Internet connection would be if the ISP had to check for every piece of spam, all viruses, and every single trojan not to mention all the java and activeX exploits?


I'd have to turn the PC off and go to bed.

I would agree with you, except there were no viruses found. Just the spyware crap.

But, let's say there were viruses. A virus could allow someone access to my hard drive & personal computer files, especially through a cable modem & line? If that was the case, (like I said there were no viruses found), & someone did have control over my computer why just the malicious & nuisance stuff? Like executables seemingly going out of control. I mean why not something really harmful, like stealing my bank records & other sensitive personal information, which are, or at least were stored on my PC. I'm talking about stuff like my PC remembering passwords when I log on to my bank account online. Also if this ever happened wouldn't the person on the other end who supposidly had access/control over my computer be able to see what I was doing on my end, which means he or she also knows what user names & passwords I used to access things like my bank account info.?

None of this ever happened. For one like I said because there were no viruses found, just the spyware crap. And 2 there have never been any problems with my bank accounts or anything else of a sensitive &/or personal nature.

I doubt the problem was any more extensive then spyware crap.

I pretty much believe what the tech. at the computer shop informed me as to what the problems were. And now they are solved.


Could it be the techs at your LCS are the ones putting the virus out there? A few independent shops have been caught putting virus on computers at the shop to steal info or to increase repair profits.

I'd have to turn the PC off and go to bed.

I think we should all do that more often.

I suspect that the main method AOL uses to prevent spyware is by supplying an AOL branded version of Mozilla web browser. Mozilla is the offshoot of Netscape which was purchased by AOL a few years ago. Much of the Mozilla core development team is (was?) comprised of Netscape folks. If AOL supplies mozilla then users are given a pretty good level of protection simply because Mozilla does not support ActiveX. Of course, one could get the same protection without switching to AOL simply by downloading and installing the current version of Mozilla (or Firebird). It's free, like all the best things in life.

It may be that AOL provides some additional protection through the use of a proxy filter that blocks access to spyware sites. But theres not much they can do about users downloading and installing spyware laden programs like Kazaa.
The last I heard, even though AOL owns Netscape, their browser was a re-branded IE browser.

AOL flip-flops between the two.

Netscape is what AOL owns, mozilla is an open-source project ran by some of their devs. Difference being mozilla is basically a way of having us beta-test what will go into the next Netscape. Really, since Moz is so nice, I dont mind it at all.

macs have their own viruses and spyware to deal with...you just never hear of it since macs represent a minority in the industry.

as far as those who need help with their maintenance...that's where a good computer shop can come in. Some of the better mom&pop shops I knew would actually come to your house up to twice a year to defrag your drives, do any backups if you want, and in general give it a full tune-up....that is if you bought one of their ccomputers. It was a pretty good idea really.

Well, I've been an Apple tech support agent for two years, and a long-time Mac user.
Viruses and spyware simply aren't a problem for a Mac user.
Not once during my two years, and probably 5000-6000 calls, have I heard of anyone with a virus or spyware.
There's still no virus for Mac OS X. Spyware does exist, but they are hard to get into your machine.

That's why I say that a Mac is virtually guaranteed to be safe from viruses and spyware.

I'm pretty sure I've seen a few viruses reported for OS-X, and several for linux, but they're spreading methods are never as good and the lower density of those operating systems makes spreading harder since there are fewer direct links from one OS-X box to another. As a result, there's never enough machines infected for anyone but symantec to pay any attention to the virus at all. The root reason linux and OS-X being safer is that the immature pricks who write viruses usually either:

1.) Hate Microsoft for reasons they couldn't actually articulate intelligently and therefore target Windows
2.) Believe they are hacking deities and wish to showcase that by affecting as many people as possible, which means targeting the most prevalent OS.

As an interesting aside, my current job has taught me most people don't realize consciously the connection between a virus and it's writer. In fact, I think some of the people who's computers I've fixed think that viruses are a troublesome mutation of code or something like that. In other words, they aren't written, they evolve, just like biological viruses. :roflmao:

I think it's unreasonable to expect your ISP to protect you from yourself. Spyware is only picked up from shady web sites and freeware loaded with advertising to recoup their costs without actually charging for the program. And if you weren't the only user of that PC, I can pretty much guarantee that your problem was user error/inattention. What anti-virus program do you use? How often do you do a system scan? Do you use AdAware and Spybot? How often? What about CWShredder? You are solely responsible for maintaining your system. Most ISPs give you anti-spam and popup blockers as a marketing gimmick meant to appeal to the computer illiterate. Those of us who know what we're doing know better.