Classic & Vintage - Hilary Stone - Buyer Beware

Hilary Stone is a well known figure on the vintage bike scene. He is knowledgeable and a big dealer in vintage frames, components and complete bicycles but of all the dealers I buy from he is the only one I have found to be untrustworthy.

Perhaps I should have known better. Before he was kicked off eBay (allegedly for offering for auction a machine he'd been offered by its owner before actually agreeing to buy it - the owner is said to have seen it and complained to eBay) I'd bought a couple of things from him but stopped when I found that he only seemed to answer emails if he stood to make money. However, when I saw the recent thread on C&V about his new website (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php/705743-New-website-from-Hilary-Stone-lots-of-C-amp-V-for-sale-and-oogle?highlight=hilary+stone) I had a look and thought it looked very professional. From this I thought he might have got his act together.

I saw a pair of Brampton pedals on his site, which he described as having "excellent" bearings, and decided to buy them. I made payment by bank transfer and the alarm bells immediately started ringing when he completely ignored my request to confirm receipt of payment and that he let me know when the pedals had been shipped.

When the pedals arrived I stripped them and found the spindle, cone and bearing surfaces on one pedal to be completely shot. (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php/711969-Pedal-Restoration)

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5059/5423546753_8d3fdfdfb6.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/22983673@N02/5423546753/)
R0012191 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/22983673@N02/5423546753/) by Dawes-man (http://www.flickr.com/people/22983673@N02/), on Flickr

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5136/5423546849_7596dc21d2.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/22983673@N02/5423546849/)
R0012193 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/22983673@N02/5423546849/) by Dawes-man (http://www.flickr.com/people/22983673@N02/), on Flickr

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5293/5424148980_1594b740e9.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/22983673@N02/5424148980/)
R0012195 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/22983673@N02/5424148980/) by Dawes-man (http://www.flickr.com/people/22983673@N02/), on Flickr

When I brought this to his attention, and although it irritated me that he tried to excuse himself by telling me the person he got the pedals from had told him the bearings were good, he promised to supply me with a new spindle and cone and to look out for a good pedal body to go with them.

Becoming hopeful again, I waited... and waited... and waited but heard nothing more. 3 weeks went by so I sent a message asking for an update. A week later, still no reply, so I sent him another request for an update. Again, no response, despite new items appearing on his website and others already on sale being marked as 'Sold'. So he was there but just not bothering to get back to me. Great! The same old Hilary Stone. I sent him a final message 5 days later asking him for a response within 3 days and saying that I would take other action if I didn't hear from him. No reply. The only action I can take is to pay him a visit next time I'm home in the UK. I have his address.

In the meantime, my friends, there you have it. Hilary Stone will happily take your money, and you may well be happy with what you buy from him, but be aware that if anything goes wrong, he is likely to not stand behind what he sells you, to ignore your messages and leave you completely and utterly on your own.

This is a great shame for me personally as there are several items on his site that I would buy, 3 of them high priced items that I'd happily pay the prices he's asking for and have remained unsold for several weeks. There have been 8 items that I wanted but couldn't bring myself to buy while this pedal problem was outstanding. I've stopped looking.

That really is a shame. Sorry about your misfortune. Perhaps something like www.heatware.com for bicycle trades would be useful? Heatware would work for bike stuff, but it's primarily used by people trading on tech forums like forums.anandtech.com

You should send this thread to Mr. Stone...

I feel the same way about a couple of suppliers, also. And, for what it is worth, had I made that error, your money would have been refunded immediately.

Thanks for the info, I was thinking about a frame set he had.

Thanks for the info, I was thinking about a frame set he had.

Mike, you can trust me. ;):p;)

This is inexcusable. It's one thing to make a mistake. We all do. But then to not handle it properly is not right. I'm sure many here will post that they've had good transactions with Mr. Stone, and some might even defend his actions somehow, as with the recent thread concerning a decal maker, but lack of proper communication is unconscionable. Especially when you have a person's money already. This is a good way to lose customers. After reading this, I'll probably never order anything from him.

That really is a shame. Sorry about your misfortune. Perhaps something like www.heatware.com for bicycle trades would be useful? Heatware would work for bike stuff, but it's primarily used by people trading on tech forums like forums.anandtech.com

Someone come up with a good domain name that's not taken, and I think that's something I can whip up in a matter of a week or two. :thumb:

It worries me to hear things like this from well known sellers, especially those who are sponsors of VeloBase. :(

Someone come up with a good domain name that's not taken, and I think that's something I can whip up in a matter of a week or two. :thumb:

It worries me to hear things like this from well known sellers, especially those who are sponsors of VeloBase. :(

You really good web guys annoy me :notamused: :)

How about velofeedback.com

In typical BF fashion, lets all pile on. Hilary Stone deals in vintage bike parts. He sells to people that are bike fanatics. It sounds like a hellish job to me. Bike parts that are 50, 60 years old and the buyers want everything perfect. I'm not saying how he handled this situation was correct, but do we have to through him under the bus. He's human. I run a small business and its so difficult trying to please everyone these days. Everyone is so demanding and critical.

It isn't the fact that he sold something that wasn't in the condition is was reported to be. It was Mr. Stone's lack of communication that has caused this thread to be started.

I need to correct a few facts - firstly I was not thrown off Ebay for anything - and certainly never offer machines for dsale before having them in my possession.
With the pedals in question I bought these from someone I regularly buy parts from - he ssured me that the bearing were good. I cannot inspect every bearing in every headset, hub etc I sell - I told Dawesman I would look for a replacement pedal after he had told me that a replacementaxle/cone would not do the job. Which is precisely what I have been doing. These things are not too uncommon in the UK and I would expect to find one within a few weeks. As yet I have not managed to do so... If somebody bombards with emaills I cannot answer every email. I am now prepared to refund the money on these pedals as I have not manafed to find a replacement pedal within a reasonable length of time. But with classic parts finding replacements can take time - its not that I forget to do it or that I want to ignore his communications... But most buyers will realise that I cannot conjure up a replacement immediately...

Personally I don't see any piling on in this, well at least not yet.
I don't want the thread to devolve into that and if it does it will be shut down.
I think it's a good idea to point this thread out to Hilary.
and Just for FYI there is a manufacturer / seller feedback section of the marketplace.

Those pedals were buggered.

Hilary Stone, if you can't inspect every item that comes in that you intend to re-sell, don't advertise it that way. If you had advertised it as un-inspected, you may not have gotten top dollar, but you would also not be on the hook for shipping out poor equipment. You messed up and should have immediately refunded the money. There is no excuse for a businessperson to ignore a customer they have wronged.

I, for one, will not be doing business with you.

Take it for what it is, but this isnt the second, or even third thread from different sources with complaints. I think "Buyer Beware" is a fair statement. That doesnt mean every transaction will go sour, just...beware.

That said, I think a site with buyer feedback on certain vendors, ebay sellers, even forum members isnt a bad idea at all. I'm a web guy too and I'd be happy to help.

Someone come up with a good domain name that's not taken, and I think that's something I can whip up in a matter of a week or two. :thumb:

Expand it to both trades and auctions, and call it VeloBay.

-Kurt

I admire Hilarystone for presenting his side of the situation. That, in itself speaks to virtue. However...

In my opinion, this situation demanded an immediate offer of full refund, including the cost of return shipping. Better yet, the choice of full refund, or wait for the correct part, or invite a suggestion from the buyer.

For what it is worth, I have been there, both as a buyer and a seller.

As a buyer, I felt ripped off by a seller, who sold me a NOS white Turbo saddle, not a repro, a NOS item. When that saddle arrived, it had a couple of scrapes in the top, two small rips on the underside edge and rust pits, on the chrome plated rails.

This is one picture that shows the scrapes near the back of the saddle. A small concern if disclosed, a big deal if not!
http://www.mytenspeeds.com/My_TenSpeeds_1/Bicycles_Table/Canadian_Bicycles/Gardin_Bicycles/GardinSpecial_Anniversary_Mine/Gardin_Anniv_Delta/Gardin_Anniv_White/Gardin_Anniv_White_Saddle_3.jpg

I expressed my concern, and the seller offered a curt "return it for refund". No choice. No offer to cover shipping costs. Just a send it back. Why would I trust this person, invest more money into a bad situation, and then send back what I had already paid for?

None the less, I accepted my situation, agonized over leaving negative feedback, and finally opted to report neutral satisfaction on Ebay feedback. The seller retaliated by calling me a liar, in public print. He has also blocked me from bidding on his stuff.

As a seller, when confronted with an item, that I feel I did misrepresent, I refund the money right away. There must, of course, be evidence to support the claim that my description, of an item, was not what the item turned out to be. This situation has cropped up one time, and one time only...

And that buyer, when confronted with the opportunity to allow a FedEx claims person to inspect the damage, passively refused to do so. Without the inspection, FedEx would not honor my claim for damage. What do I think about this situation? Perhaps the buyer was scamming me, for a refund of some sort. I never did hear back from him.

Seller, beware at all times, but give people, particularly those with good Ebay feedback, the benefit of the doubt, when you think it prudent to do so.

Just my opinion, of course, which some of you must be sick of it by now.

- Hilary isn't overly scrutinizing when it comes to condition
- Hilary isn't extraordinarily communicative
- Hilary is extremely knowledgeable
- Hilary has great stock
- Hilary is willing to ship internationally

Some pros, some cons. Everyone has to do the math for themselves.

In my opinion, this situation demanded an immediate offer of full refund, including the cost of return shipping. Better yet, the choice of full refund, or wait for the correct part, or invite a suggestion from the buyer.

Just my opinion, of course, which some of you must be sick of it by now.[/QUOTE]

Yes. we're tired of your opinion! :) All good stuff Randyjawa. It's all a crap shoot and, unfortunately, the buyer loses a lot of the time, especially on ebay. I have a pretty simply philosophy as an ebay seller. Tell it like it is. Warts and all. Do I get top dollar from all my items? No. What I do get though is many feedbacks stating "better than described". One item returned in over 600 sales on ebay. A slight difference of opinion on condition. I gave the guy an instant refund before I received the item back. It aint all that hard. But good communication is one of the keys.

Having dealt with HS, I feel Dawes-man is being a little harsh in his conclusions. Granted, Hilary is not good at responding in a timely fashion, but he is a legitimate businessman. Dawes-man felt his best recourse was this public forum, and apparently it got Hilary's attention. Still, I think the unsubstantiated claim that Hilary got thrown off eBay was unnecessary and mean. It simply isn't relevant to Dawes-man's legitimate beef about Hilary's unresponsiveness.

I hope you guys patch things up. You both have made substantial contributions to my knowledge and appreciation of old bicycles.

It doesn't sound to me like Dawesman got ripped off... yet. I'm not sure how this would have played out had he not posted here, however, and that's disturbing.

I work a very high-pressure job that runs long hours. I routinely come home with three hours of work to do after my kids go to bed. That said, I answer probably 30-40 emails a day from parents, students, colleagues and friends. If I had promised to do something for someone, and after several weeks, they emailed me asking for an update, I would say: "Hey, still looking! Let me know if you want me to stop looking and do something else." That just took about 10 seconds to write. And had Hilary done that, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Seems to me that Hilary couldn't be bothered to respond, period, whether he was genuinely looking for new pedals or not (how would we know?). And I don't buy things from people who take my money, but ignore me when I email them with an issue.

Here's an example in the reverse: in May of last year, I signed up for a gym membership at a very expensive little local gym. By July, it was obvious that they (and I) could not find routines that didn't hurt me too much due to my chronic disease. We parted ways, and I ended the membership. Everyone was courteous and polite. At that same time, I bought a house. I've been putting literally dozens of small purchases onto the same card I used to buy the gym membership, for months. What with surgery, teaching, moving, and other distractions, I've just been paying the bill when it arrived. Well, last month, I didn't buy anything. But the bill arrived with a $90 charge from the gym on it. I checked, and sure enough, there were charges dating back to July. That's over $700 in charges. I felt like a doofus for not noticing, and I really wanted my money back. I emailed them. They responded three hours later, offered to refund every cent, and asked if I wanted the check mailed to me or did I want to come pick it up and get it sooner?

So Hilary, your excuses read as excuses to me. Respond to people who have paid you money, and you will have repeat customers. Ignore them, and you'll lose much more than the current customer. That's just common sense in business, and I can't believe you wouldn't go out of your way to reassure us that this is what you normally do. Blaming the customer for wanting an update on what you're doing with HIS money is ridiculous.

I cannot inspect every bearing in every headset, hub etc I sell Yes, you can. If you aren't, then you should start.

I feel that in the realm of vintage/rare items, there are certain realities you have to deal with if you want to get your hands on interesting parts. The eccentric, unreliable sellers often have the best stuff and the buyer must be willing to accept a calculated risk - this isn't JC Penney.

I have mixed feelings about feedback forums, as the buyer's story can be just as biased as the seller's story and I have seen too many of these forums spawn unfair accusations, feuds, and cycles of revenge. If a seller is unreliable, the feedback forum is unlikely to make him reliable - it will usually just make him throw in the towel. If I want something that's hard to get badly enough, I'll take a risk and accept the consequences.

Don't kbow what Hilary's eBay rating is, but I always just buy from people with high number of sales (preferably more than 200) and nothing less than high 99% level feedback.....and I have zero problems for many years now.

Chombi

This is really simple. Those bearing surfaces aren't "excellent"...they're not even "good"...they perhaps qualify as "poor". Maybe.

If Mr. Stone advertised these as "excellent" there's a problem. The fact that he trusted the word of his supplier is irrelevant to the issue. That's a private matter between Mr. Stone and his supplier. A refund or offer of a different product should have happened immediately. I find the statement "I cannot inspect every bearing in every headset, hub etc I sell" ludicrous. Because these aren't new, off-the-shelf items is all the MORE REASON to do exactly that...so that when you advertise an item in a certain condition you are sure of it. I sell a few bike parts here and there and I wouldn't sell a one without having cleaned, lubricated, and essentially prepping it for use on MY OWN BIKE unless I disclosed the fact that I hadn't inspected it. I can't see myself doing the latter anyway...I'm not selling something I've not inspected. Period.

Mr. Stone, your name is on the website, the buck stops with you. How this is handled will determine whether or not I order the couple items I had been considering too.

You really good web guys annoy me :notamused: :)

How about velofeedback.com

I like it! I also like velorep.org/com. The problem is getting the initial critical mass to be useful.

Brampton pedals like the ones shown are low-tech and even when brand new were never known to be super high quality. They were better than average but not the ultimate pedals. There was always play in the cages due to the way they were made, and the bearings were not of the close tolerance type. Anybody buying such old pedals, should expect one of three possible cases: 1) NOS pedals where the grease is fully hardened and in need of complete overhaul or at least in need of softening through the addition of oil., 2) used pedals where the pedals spin freely and straight, or 3) used pedals where they don't spin freely or are not straight. I truly believe that the pedals shown are of teh 2 classification and the cones as seen will "work". Are they perfect? no! Do they look the part? yes! Is the OP's rant justified? No!

While these pedals can be overhauled, even back in the day, they were rarely overhauled by shops or mechanics. Pedals were simply deemed to be functional or not functional. These ones apparently were functional and Dawes-man has not mentioned them being bent or crooked. If the pedals spun without hang-ups or notches and did not have overly excessive play, I too would deem them to be good/excellent.

If you want a part with bearings that is up to manufacturers specs, you have no choice but to buy NOS.

Brampton pedals like the ones shown are low-tech and even when brand new were never known to be super high quality. They were better than average but not the ultimate pedals. There was always play in the cages due to the way they were made, and the bearings were not of the close tolerance type. Anybody buying such old pedals, should expect one of three possible cases: 1) NOS pedals where the grease is fully hardened and in need of complete overhaul or at least in need of softening through the addition of oil., 2) used pedals where the pedals spin freely and straight, or 3) used pedals where they don't spin freely or are not straight. I truly believe that the pedals shown are of teh 2 classification and the cones as seen will "work". Are they perfect? no! Do they look the part? yes! Is the OP's rant justified? No!

While these pedals can be overhauled, even back in the day, they were rarely overhauled by shops or mechanics. Pedals were simply deemed to be functional or not functional. These ones apparently were functional and Dawes-man has not mentioned them being bent or crooked. If the pedals spun without hang-ups or notches and did not have overly excessive play, I too would deem them to be good/excellent.

If you want a part with bearings that is up to manufacturers specs, you have no choice but to buy NOS.
I suspected the same when I first saw the pics on this post. The Bramptons look to be more of a "Kalashnikov" quality pedal, like maybe a Lyotard rat trap was....but I suspect the Bramptons were still considered by many as better pedals than Lyotards were.....

Chombi

I quit selling bike stuff on ebay years ago because people would buy 30-40 year old used stuff, then be upset it wasn't like new.

Yes, you can. If you aren't, then you should start.

Describe it as excellent condition, with a price to match, and it needs to be in excellent condition. Describe it as found condition (with a much lower price of course), and that is fine too.

Once you take the time to describe the condition, then it is the SELLERS responsibility to inspect it accordingly. If you don't want to open it up and inspect bearings and cones, then just describe the external "cosmetic" condition (ie, rust free, chrome is good (or not good), and let the buyers know that the bearings spin smoothly (if that is true) but the cones and bearings have not been inspected, and the buyer should expect some wear given the age of the item.

One advantage of ebay is if the seller misrepresents the item, it is relatively easy to get your money back.

Describing it as excellent, and then later saying "well the guy that sold it to me told me it was excellent" is feeble at best.

Describe it as excellent condition, with a price to match, and it needs to be in excellent condition. Describe it as found condition (with a much lower price of course), and that is fine too.

Once you take the time to describe the condition, then it is the SELLERS responsibility to inspect it accordingly. One advantage of ebay is if the seller misrepresents the item, it is relatively easy to get your money back.

Describing it as excellent, and then later saying "well the guy that sold it to me told me it was excellent" is feeble at best.

I would tend to agree with this assessment. If Mr. Stone instead described the pedals as being in "unknown" condition (which would have been accurate as far as the seller was concerned), then he would have released himself of all liability after the sale. But in this case I feel he chose to maximize his profit by taking it on the faith of a third party to describe the pedals as "excellent". Mr. Stone should be held responsible for issuing a refund in this case.

I disagree that buying vintage parts *has* to be a calculated risk. Often it is, but if the seller's wording is such that any ambiguity is removed from the equation, then there shouldn't be any risk. Sure, I've taken risks when buying parts off of eBay, even expensive parts from other parts of the world, for which the description was vague or minimal. Some times it has paid off, other times it has not. But I've never taken a risk based on a thorough description.

I make a point of making a full disclosure about any defects on everything I sell on eBay, whether cosmetic or functional--and I've been selling on eBay for close to 13 years, long before the days of Paypal and buyer/seller protection. I have 100% perfect feedback and 5 star ratings on all seller attributes that buyers can rank sellers on (product description, shipping promptness, quality of communication, etc). I encourage buyers to view my seller status, and as a result, I think people who see my items are willing to pay top dollar for them. I know this because I often compare what my items sell for with comparable items. Mine are always on the upper end of the price bell curve. I can only attribute that to my seller reputation.

I have never once had a buyer ask to return an item because of an undisclosed defect. I once messed up when I sold two pair of brake levers to two different sellers, and accidentally mixed the sets (whoops!). I not only refunded both parties, but asked them if they would ship the other person the mismatched lever, at my cost. Each party eventually ended up with the correct pair, for free. One party asked if he could re-pay me, and I refused because I had inconvenienced him with my blunder.

Okay, we've received quite a number of reports concerning this thread.
I was responding at same time that Hilary did, and at this point it appears to be an
issue between he and Dawes-man. I'll suggest they settle 'off list'.
we can discuss buying/selling vintage items and the inherent risk in
another thread (which does not mention sellers specifically).
closing thread.

Marty