Cyclocross - Cantilver Brake FAQ

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meanwhile
03-25-11, 05:02 PM
I've filled in more time with my netbook while waiting for trains etc, and this is the result. As requested it now includes other sorts of brakes than cantis - but I really don't know much about these, so more contributions are needed. Hints about discs and comments about v-brake modulation and v's vs mini-v's would be especially useful.




The Laws Of Brake
(With special attention to cantilevers.)

I. The Basics

1. Fit good good brake pads
Your brake can't slow down the tyre better than it can grip the rim. Kool Stop and Swiss Stop pads are specially favoured by cross riders. Both brands are colour coded: for riding in the wet with aluminium rims you need Kool Stop Pink (aka Salmon) or Swiss Stop Green pads.

2. Keep your rims clean
A green Scotchbrite pad works well for this. Dirty rims brake poorly and may wear out themselves and your pads more quickly.

3. Keep your pads clean
Give the inner surface a rub with something abrasive occasionally. (Making sure that you don't leave any abrasive particles behind!) This will get rid of particles of dirt and metal that will, again, reduce brake performance and increase wear.

4. Make sure that your cable path is a good one - and that your cables are too
Unnecessary kinks and bends cause friction, eating up "squeeze". sheldon brown
And never substitute gear cable for brake cable - it isn't strong enough.

5. Lube your cable inners as needed
If you have fancy expensive cables, check the manufacturer's recommendations first. Otherwise see:

http://www.ctc.org.uk/DesktopDefault.aspx?TabID=3824
http://www.bikeradar.com/gear/article/workshop-how-to-clean-and-lube-your-bike-18259/

I like GT85 as cable lube.

6. Know how to use your brakes
- Use your front brake aggressively. Once a tyre exceeds its traction limit in braking (or turning) then it will skid. And when you brake the back wheel loses traction - but the front wheel gains it. So strong braking has to come from the front wheel. Keep your arms "strong" but not rigid - i.e. don't let your weight move forwards but do allow the bars the freedom to let your bike make the small automatic steering corrections built into its geometry, and which are needed to keep it upright. (You do know that if you lock your arms and wrists while holding the bars that your bike will crash? Weird, isn' it?)

- Learn to hold your brakes at the edge that exists just before a skid. It is here that braking will be greatest. This will require a different amount of squeeze for each brake and the amount and balance of squeeze will depend on surface and slope. You have to learn to feel the bike's balance the skid point - especially for the rear. The only way to do this is the Carnegie Hall method - practice, practice, practice!

- The third secret of braking is that braking and steering both use up traction. You can do both, but not to the same extent you could do either alone. Again, practice.


II. Mechanical Advantage and Pull

1. Mechanical advantage and the problem of pull
You almost certainly know what leverage is. Mechanical advantage (MA) is a generalization of this. It can be achieved via levers, pulleys, gear systems, hydraulics and other means. It is simply the amplification of exerted force. If a system has an MA of two then twice as much force is exerted as put in.

There is a cost for mechanical advantage. When a lever doubles output force then the input force must travel twice the distance than it would if the two forces were equal. Imagine a lever that doubles MA: the input side of the lever must be made twice as long as the output side. So raising the output side one inch will require moving the input side two inches.

This same rule applies to all mechanical systems for increasing MA: Twice as much force, twice as much pull. Three times as much force, three times as much pull - etc, until infinity.

There are two consequences to this:

- Brakes and levers have to have matching pull, or the pads won't move far enough or will be too stiff to press really hard against the rims. Standard road brake drop bar levers are NOT pull compatible with regular v-brakes or most disc brakes, although there are ways of getting around this. See the section on each brake type.

- MA and pull are inevitably traded off against each other. People often mistake MA for braking power but it is only of part of it. Yes, if MA is too low then it won't be able to overcome the resistance of the brake pads - acting like rubber springs - to being squeezed against the rims. But if MA is set very high and pull very low then the pad will be squashed easily - but not very deeply! This means that little braking force will be exerted. Good braking requires good MA and adequate pull.

Good pull is also needed for clearance between rims and brake pads - if maximum pull is less than the clearance you have set, the pads won't even touch the rim when you bottom out the levers. The amount of clearance you need depends on the track you are riding. Smooth roads need very little clearance, but a muddy trail will coat your tyre with clumps of mud that will smash against your pads slowing you down.

2. Single speeds and bar con bikes can get easy compatibility by using v-brake road levers
Special v-brake compatible drop bar levers are available. These will work directly with standard v-brakes and disc brakes. These levers do NOT include shifter controllers, but if you're riding singlespeed or with bar cons they may be a good choice.


III. Cantilevers
Cantilevers - aka "cantis" - are the standard cross brake for good reason. They allow wide tyre clearance and can be easily adjusted to give different combinations of MA, pull and clearance as needed for conditions - so on a dry course clearance can be cut to a minimum and power to a maximum, and on a muddy course clearance can be increased at the cost of full-on braking power. Many people also think that cantis give the best modulation (the ability to apply controlled amounts of braking) of any rim brake.

However cantis can cause problems. People complain of low power, squealing brakes, and even dangerously destabilizing fork judder. All these problems can be easily and cheaply cured, but most people - including the mechanics in most all bike shops - don't know how. So read on!

1. The ultimate reference and other useful links
The definitive analysis and reference on Mechanical Advantage and tuning:

http://www.circleacycles.com/cantilevers/canti-geometry.pdf

Accompanying MA calculator app:

http://www.circleacycles.com/cantilevers/

Squeal and judder:

http://velonews.competitor.com/2010/09/cyclocross/technical-qa-with-lennard-zinn-return-to-cross_101807


2. Types of cantilever
Cantilevers can be classed in several types according to the angle of the arm that holds the cable.

Narrow profile cantilevers (aka low profile) a
...Are as you'd expect - narrow! Their arms reach up and hardly go the side at all.

- Easy to fit the rear where a brake with protruding arms might catch the riders heels while he pedals.

- Very sensitive to set-up and are the least capable of getting good mud clearance while achieving good power.

- Getting good MA can require a very low straddle cable. This can interfere with a mudguard - or even with a tyre if your bike is set-up as a monster crosser.

Medium cantis
...Are between the narrows and wides.They're not widely favoured at the moment - a wide at the front and a narrow at the back is more common.

Wide profile cantis (aka high profile)
...Have arms that are more or less horizontal.

- Best ability to be set for good mud clearance while keeping decent braking power and are very popular as front brakes.

- Straddle cables can be set relatively high and MA will still be good

- Can stick out too much to be a good rear brake - they may catch your heel while pedalling or your shoulder while carrying your bike.

Super wide cantis
...Have arms that slope downwards. These are now historical curiosities only but should still be mentioned as the straddle cable tuning guide that follows won't work for them.

4. Adjusting power and pull: straddle cables and tuning
- The main way to tune your cantis is to adjust the length and height of your straddle cable. Shortening the straddle cable will give you more mechanical advantage but yield less pad movement for the same lever movement. As always, you need to find your personal preference. (Lowering the yoke/ shortening the straddle cable to increase MA always works for all canti types except super-wides.)

- Shimano cantis have pre-set straddle cables aka "z-wires". In this set-up the main brake cable runs directly to one brake arm and a yoke with a short cable of fixed length clips on to activate the other. These are known as z-wires and come in various lengths. Searching for "tektro z-wires" can help find them on the net.

- Other cantis come with a more tuneable straddle cable that runs from one arm to another. This cable runs through a yoke or "cable hanger" that attaches to the main brake cable. Shimano brakes can be converted to this set-up with a few minutes work.

- Mild warning: in theory, your main front brake cable can snap, in which case a non z-wire straddle will flop down and catch in the tread of your tyre, causing a very sudden stop. You can prevent this by checking your brake cable for fraying or by installing something to stop the straddle from falling that far.

- If you want maximum braking power then tune so that your pads will be set for the smallest amount of clearance that is tolerable given the terrain you are riding.

- My experience is that adding a fork mounted hanger will improve power and modulation. This makes sense - the less unnecessary flex there is a cable system, the better it should be at transmitting force.

5. Squeal and judder
See http://velonews.competitor.com/2010/09/cyclocross/technical-qa-with-lennard-zinn-return-to-cross_101807

Judder - and sometimes squealing (but this has other causes too) - is caused when your fork flexes during braking. As the fork flexes it can alter brake cable tension - which in turn alters how hard the bike is braking, which then alters the degree to which the fork has flexed - and around and around the cycle goes.

The cure is easy: stop either the fork from flexing (there are ultra rigid forks that don't flex - this is an easy solution but not a cheap one!) or stop the cable from flexing when the fork does by fitting a fork mounted cantilever hanger (aka FMCH from now on) instead of - or as well as - the more usual stem mounted hanger.

Fork Mounted Cable Hangers
- These need a hole in the fork crown to mount. If the crown lacks such a hole and is metal then you can (carefully) drill one. But do NOT ever drill into a carbon fibre fork crown!

- Some carbon forks come with a built-in hanger.

- If you have problems finding a hanger, order or Internet search for the Kona Design Front Hanger BP1272F

- A hanger can get in the way of running a front fender/mudguard. This may be less of a problem with a wide canti as it will let you use a higher yoke position which may let you route the straddle around the outside of the fender. Or you could use an MTB style fender that clips on to your down tube instead of the fork.

If you can't mount an FMCH and don't want to run v-brakes or buy a new fork
Try lots of toe-in, a very tight headset, and even trimming your brake pads down.

6. Common mistakes
Some people tune so that their cantis feel hard and definite. This is a mistake. Cantis should feel somewhat soft and rubbery, from the feedback of the brakepad being squashed against the rim. Cantis only feel hard if MA is set too low to squash the pad. However, not all soft cantis are correctly tuned! A soft canti may have good MA but too little movement.

Some people believe that the straddle cable should make a right angle with a line from the point where the cable attaches to the brake arm to the point where the pads will touch the rim. This is wrong. See "The Ultimate Reference" to understand why.

7. Recommended brakes
Remember: don't judge a cantilever as lacking power until you have installed a decent pad, tuned the straddle cable, and if necessary fitted a fork mounted hanger! Almost all cantilevers can be transformed this way and even the best cantilevers will usually perform poorly without these tweaks.

- The Tektro CR520 & CR720 are reasonably priced and very effective wide cantis.

- Shimano makes a number of good narrow cantis at a range of prices.

- The Avid Shorty Ultimate, Paul's Touring and Paul's Retro are all well-regarded high-end brakes . Although it is arguable that a canti (which is after all nothing but a lever and a return spring) is so simple a device that there is little point in paying a high price.


IV. Mini V-Brakes
Mini-v brakes sacrifice the adjustability, clearance and (perhaps - opinions vary) modulation of cantis for easier set-up and a lack of fork judder. They may be a good choice for you if your bike doesn't have to race through mud very often. Because they are pull compatible with road levers they can be fitted to a crosser without any special tricks.

Hints
If your mini-v's squeal then read the Cantilever section and use the tactics discuss there - toe-in, a tight headeset, and a fork mounted hanger.

Advantages
Easy set up. No risk of judder.

Disadvantages
Poor clearance; questionable modulation.

Recommended brakes
Tektro RX5 - 85mm arm length
Tektro RX6 - 90mm arm length, so should give slight more MA and less modulation
TRP CX9 - 90mm arm length. TRP = Tektro Racing Products... I suspect this will behave almost identically to the RX6, despite costing 4 times as much!


V. Fullsize V-Brakes
Fullsize v's have all the characteristics of mini-v's except pull compatibility. This can be provided using a "Travel Agent" or "V-Daptor". See:

http://www.phred.org/~alex/bikes/brakes.html (http://www.phred.org/%7Ealex/bikes/brakes.html).

If you decide to use a v-brake and adaptor, consider using it only at the front and keeping a canti at the back: most braking (and virtually all canti braking problems) happens at the front, and adaptors at the back may tend to clog with mud.

Advantages
Easy set up. No risk of judder.

Disadvantages
Poor clearance; need an adaptor; questionable modulation. Why not use a mini-v?

Hints
If your v's squeal then read the Cantilever section and use the tactics discuss there - toe-in, a tight headeset, and a fork mounted hanger.

Recommended brakes
The Avid Single Digit 7 is considered an all-time classic.


VI. Disc Brakes
Disc brakes require special mounts on the fork and frame and special wheels. They also add weight and may be harder to service than rim brakes. However they are powerful, modulate well, ignore mud on the rim and make clearance a non-issue. Standard disc brakes are not compatible with road levers. However you should be able to fix this using one of the adaptors made for v-brakes. And there are special road brake compatible disc brakes too.

Road lever compatible discs
These exist. Check carefully what you are buying!

Adaptors can be used with mechanical MTB discs
Treat as with fullsize v-brakes.

It can be worth fitting a disc fork even if your frame can't take a disc at the back.
Most of your braking happens at the front, so most of the benefit of discs comes from fitting a disc fork.

A frame builder maybe able to add disc mounts to a metal frame.
Ask one!

Hydraulic adaptor
You might be able to get hardware that lets you use your mechanical road levers with hydraulic MTB brakes:

http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/eurobike-2010-trickstuff-cyclo-cross-disc-brake-converter-27723/


VII. Interrupter aka cross levers
These handy things go on the flat part of your bar to give you an on-the-tops braking position.

- If fitted correctly they shouldn't reduce power

- They won't have a problem working with v-brakes if an adaptor has been fitted

- Getting the cable path right so that power and modulation aren't reduce can be tricky. Using compressionless braking cable may help. Do not confuse this with the more common compressionless gear cable - this is not strong enough for use with brakes.


VIII. Brake boosters
Powerful rim brakes can cause their mounts to flex reducing power and modulation. Brake boosters are U-shaped pieces of metal or carbon fibre that arch over the wheel to join the mounts together, reinforcing them. Much more popular among mountain bikers.


IX Problem Solver
When multiple solutions exist I've listed the cheaper ones first. I've recommended the CR720 and RX5 when a specific brake seemed useful not because either is a favourite of mine but because they are almost universally liked and cost very little.

If your brakes are cantilevers and they aren't powerful enough
- Learn to use your front brake aggressively, clean your pads and rims, fit better brake pads, check the cable path is good, tune the straddle cable, fit a fork mounted brake hanger
- Fit a Tektro CR720 to the front and adjust the straddle again
- Fit a mini-v brake to the front - probably a Tektro RX5

If your brakes are NOT cantilevers and they aren't powerful enough
- Learn to use your front brake aggressively, clean your pads and rims, fit better brake pads, check the cable path is good, lower the straddle cable, fit a fork mounted brake hanger
- If you are using a full-size v-brake make sure you are using the pull adaptor correctly

If your brakes squeal or cause fork judder
- Increase brake pad toe-in, fit a fork mounted hanger, shorten your brake pads, tighten your headset
- Fit a mini-v brake to the front - probably a Tektro RX5

If you need more pad-rim clearance than your current brake will give you
- Fit a wide profile cantilever, probably a Tektro CR720

--------------------------------
My thanks to everyone who has contributed so far, either in this thread or in the previous ones that I mined. I'll add names of contributors in the next edit, really!


meanwhile
03-25-11, 05:03 PM
The above is my attempt at creating something that can be used as a sticky. Please help, especially if you can simplify or clarify the tuning instructions!

knobster
03-25-11, 05:33 PM
Most people use their cross bikes for riding other than racing. I'm one of them. Because I live in a place that rains nearly 7 months out of the year, I require fenders. With the fork mounted hanger you can't mount fenders.... This was a no go for me.


cuda2k
03-25-11, 06:50 PM
A thanks to meanwhile for getting this FAQ kicked off. Going to sticky this thread for easy reference.

Andy_K
03-25-11, 06:59 PM
This is a good start. Thanks for taking the initiative!

I think you're over-emphasizing the fork-mounted cable hanger. That's a great solution (when possible) for fork shudder, but it only helps poor braking performance if the poor braking performance is caused by fork shudder. It might incidentally help other problems by forcing you to lower your straddle cable, but it seems better to address that directly.

It might be worth adding a section on Z-link wires, as there are several lengths available and choosing among them can help improve braking.

You could expand a lot on the discussion of V-brakes and mini-V brakes, in which case this thread should be renamed something more generic. A discussion of disc brakes is probably also worth having.

What you have about the trade-offs between mechanical advantage and pad travel is good, but I'd like to see it given more emphasis and perhaps expanded upon slightly.

meanwhile
03-25-11, 07:30 PM
This is a good start. Thanks for taking the initiative!

I think you're over-emphasizing the fork-mounted cable hanger. That's a great solution (when possible) for fork shudder, but it only helps poor braking performance if the poor braking performance is caused by fork shudder. It might incidentally help other problems by forcing you to lower your straddle cable, but it seems better to address that directly.


Interesting point! In response:

1. They're cheap and level the playing field for tuning, never do any harm, and cantis that don't squeal without hangers are very rare - if they exist

And, more importantly -

2. I added a hanger to a bike that braked superbly (squealed a bit, shuddered not at all) - an '88 Kona Lava Dome with a fork like the handle of a high tech battle axe. Braking went from A to A++ - silent, wonderful modulation, effortless power. If I'd ridden the bikewithout knowing what brakes it had I'd have sworn that they were hydraulic discs.

So I think that if a hanger can be added then it should be added. The only exception I'd make is for a bike that is braking without any squealing at all. Squealing is produced by vibration that a fork mounted hanger can remove, and this can transform braking.



It might be worth adding a section on Z-link wires, as there are several lengths available and choosing among them can help improve braking.


Well volunteered!



You could expand a lot on the discussion of V-brakes and mini-V brakes, in which case this thread should be renamed something more generic. A discussion of disc brakes is probably also worth having.


Again, I think these ideas are *very* worthwhile but need someone else to do them. Partly because I have done enough to satisfy myself, partly because I've never used vees and a TA, or mini-vees, or maintained a disc brake bike. Cantis I can speak of from experience.



What you have about the trade-offs between mechanical advantage and pad travel is good, but I'd like to see it given more emphasis and perhaps expanded upon slightly.

Interesting again - I was worried I'd been too detailed.

meanwhile
03-25-11, 07:36 PM
Most people use their cross bikes for riding other than racing. I'm one of them. Because I live in a place that rains nearly 7 months out of the year, I require fenders. With the fork mounted hanger you can't mount fenders.... This was a no go for me.

Excellent point! Weirdly, a lot of English people don't bother putting fenders on our bikes.

Has anyone tried Crud Catchers? That's what I'm going to do this year - use the sort of front fender goes on the down tube. (I've never liked the modulation on vees, so I'm willing to make a strong effort to avoid them.) And you can have a bar mounted fender as an extra if you want to look like a Downhill MTB Badass:

195047

What do you think? Too silly???

knobster
03-26-11, 12:40 AM
That's an option...

I ended up selling my canti/v-brake only bike and picked up a titanium Airborne with disc brakes. No problems anymore...

Andy_K
03-26-11, 09:45 AM
2. I added a hanger to a bike that braked superbly (squealed a bit, shuddered not at all) - an '88 Kona Lava Dome with a fork like the handle of a high tech battle axe. Braking went from A to A++ - silent, wonderful modulation, effortless power. If I'd ridden the bikewithout knowing what brakes it had I'd have sworn that they were hydraulic discs.

Do you have any explanation, apart from yoke height, for why adding a fork-mounted cable hanger would increase braking power?

I've never had a problem with squealing with my stem mounted hangers. Maybe I've just been lucky.

meanwhile
03-26-11, 12:37 PM
Do you have any explanation, apart from yoke height, for why adding a fork-mounted cable hanger would increase braking power?

I've never had a problem with squealing with my stem mounted hangers. Maybe I've just been lucky.

Squealing has the same root as shudder - it's just a lesser version of the same problem. Or even exactly the same in magnitude but mitigated by a tighter headset. The brakes go on, the fork flexes, the cable flexes - the brakes go off. The fork flex back, the brakes go on. Obviously you lose braking power and modulation during this. A fork mounted hanger minimizes cable flex, so when the fork goes back the cable stays tight. So the brake stays on and fork stays (minutely) back.

And, yes, you've been lucky. All my canti bikes have squealed a bit, although all of them except the crosser have had excellent braking power without a hanger. (The crosser I'd rate as so-so.)

The question everyone now wants to ask: what bike/fork/brake do you have???

meanwhile
03-26-11, 12:38 PM
I'll also add a summary of the recent interrupter brakes thread...

flargle
03-29-11, 05:51 AM
If you don't like the "stopping power" of your cantis, first thing to try is shortening your straddle cable (or link wire) as much as possible.

This is a cool applet:
http://www.circleacycles.com/cantilevers/

It shows that as you lower the yoke height (i.e. shorten the straddle cable) you increase mechanical advantage. It also shows that low-profile cantis have more mechanical advantage than old-school Mafac-style.

Remember that increasing mechanical advantage means reducing the clearance from pad to rim.

flargle
03-29-11, 05:57 AM
Here's how to route your cables when you have a short drop from stem to cable hanger:
http://cdn3.media.cyclingnews.futurecdn.net/2010/10/05/1/katie_compton_stevens_brake_levers_600.jpg

If you don't have top-mount levers, you can cram it under the stem with a couple short bends, but with top-mounts, the cable housing needs to be able to move.

GrayJay
03-30-11, 02:57 PM
If you don't like the "stopping power" of your cantis, first thing to try is shortening your straddle cable (or link wire) as much as possible.

This is a cool applet:
http://www.circleacycles.com/cantilevers/

It shows that as you lower the yoke height (i.e. shorten the straddle cable) you increase mechanical advantage. It also shows that low-profile cantis have more mechanical advantage than old-school Mafac-style.

Remember that increasing mechanical advantage means reducing the clearance from pad to rim.

It is important to note that lowering yoke height only increases Mechanical Advantage (MA) if the cantilver alfa angle is < 90° (medium or low profile). Note that Shedon and Circleacycles confusingly define cantilever angle differently, I am using the circleacucle definition, makes more sense to me. Downside of medium or low profile cantilevers is that during swing of the caliper, they start with a high MA and as the yoke rises the MA decreases. Exactly the opposite behavior is much more desireable, so that there is more initial movement to quickly swing the pad closer to the rim and then ramp up MA once the pad is in contact with the rim. Having excessivly high MA is not necessily desireable for a cross bike! Result is an overly strong brake that can more easily lockup the wheel with little ability to modulate the braking force at the lever. As flargle noted, High MA also dictates that the pads must be setup close to the rim so will be less tolerant to bent rims, broken spokes and mud clearance. Tune for only as much MA as you need.

If alfa angle exactly = 90°, you get the original linear pull brake, the MA is entirely uneffected by yoke height setting.

If alfa angle > 90° (super wide profile) you get progressive brake curve, raising the yoke actually increases the MA. Unfortunatly, such configurations has inherently low MA however so you may need to pair them with levers with very high MA or run the cable through a pulley at the yoke pivot and back up to a fixed anchor to double the MA (and 1/2 the travel) of the system.

Andy_K
03-30-11, 04:56 PM
Well volunteered!

Fair enough.


Z-link wires

Several common cantilever brakes use link wires instead of the traditional separate yokes and straddle cables. Mechanically, the link wire functions exactly the same as the yoke and straddle cable except that to change the yoke height you have to switch link wires. While this limits adjustability somewhat, it also simplies set up.

Link wires are available in five sizes. Your LBS may recommend switching to a yoke and straddle cable setup rather than switching link wire sizes. That will work, but if you prefer the simplicity of link wires the LBS should be able to order them. Link wires are also available from several online retaillers. You will find "Tektro Z Link Wire" to be a reliable search term to find them.

As with other cantilever setups, lowering the effective yoke position will give you more mechanical advantage (raw braking power) but will yield less pad movement relative to the lever movement. As always, you need to find your personal balance preference. In terms of link wires the shorter the published "size" of the wire, the lower the effective yoke position. Therefore, a 63 mm link wire provides the greatest mechanical advantage, while a 106 mm link wire will allow the best mud clearance.

See also: http://sheldonbrown.com/canti-trad.html#yoke

Scott_CX
03-30-11, 07:44 PM
I always get confused by explanations of mechanical advantage- I get the concept but the whole issue of lever feel I'm not sure on.

"The more mechanical advantage you have, the closer the brake shoes will be to the rim at their rest position."

"A hard, crisp feel to the brakes on a bicycle may be a sign that the brakes don't have much mechanical advantage"

I have low profile cantis and the only way I get any feel out of STI levers is when I have the pads close to the rim and when the pads don't have to travel far. When they're further away from the rim I almost bottom out on the levers getting the pads to touch the rim. They certainly don't feel like road brakes, but the more MA I have the more feel I have. Granted I don't have much mud clearance but this wasn't issue last year in New England.

Perhaps, It's the brakes I have, there no-name cheapies that came with an entry level cross bike. I play to upgrade them soon because they're a pain in the ass and they're almost past there time. I plan on getting TRP Euros or frog legs.

I learned to tune my brakes just by playing with them a lot and finding the balance of lever feel vs. braking power, it took a while but now it's fairly easy for me to find that balance.

Also anyone have any thoughts on barrel adjusters? Are they helpful or do they not do much?

meanwhile
03-31-11, 08:39 AM
It is important to note that lowering yoke height only increases Mechanical Advantage (MA) if the cantilver alfa angle is < 90° (medium or low profile).


Not QUITE - even regular wide cantis have alpha < 90. Only super-wide cantis, no longer made(?) go beyond this. Alpha is only > 90 when the cable attachment point is lower than the pivot. So any modern brake that people think of as wide - the Paul Retro, the CR720 - will still get more powerful with a lower straddle.



Note that Shedon and Circleacycles confusingly define cantilever angle differently, I am using the circleacucle definition, makes more sense to me. Downside of medium or low profile cantilevers is that during swing of the caliper, they start with a high MA and as the yoke rises the MA decreases. Exactly the opposite behavior is much more desireable, so that there is more initial movement to quickly swing the pad closer to the rim and then ramp up MA once the pad is in contact with the rim. Having excessivly high MA is not necessily desireable for a cross bike! Result is an overly strong brake that can more easily lockup the wheel with little ability to modulate the braking force at the lever. As flargle noted, High MA also dictates that the pads must be setup close to the rim so will be less tolerant to bent rims, broken spokes and mud clearance. Tune for only as much MA as you need.

If alfa angle exactly = 90°, you get the original linear pull brake, the MA is entirely uneffected by yoke height setting.

If alfa angle > 90° (super wide profile) you get progressive brake curve, raising the yoke actually increases the MA. Unfortunatly, such configurations has inherently low MA however so you may need to pair them with levers with very high MA or run the cable through a pulley at the yoke pivot and back up to a fixed anchor to double the MA (and 1/2 the travel) of the system.

+1

BUT - can you even find alpha > 90 cantis anymore???

With the addition that I prefer the standard behaviour of cantis re MA - ie that it falls as the squeeze increases. This means that the brake becomes more sensitive and controllable as you approach the point where your wheels will lock, making it easier to hold the bike just beneath that point.

meanwhile
03-31-11, 08:55 AM
Two odd coincidences:

- I live near one of the best bike shops in the UK, Ron Spencers. They outfit most of the racers in this area and are one of the main places to go for a crosser when cross racing season starts.

- I had to take my bike there for emergency surgery (something nasty happened to the stem expander bolt) and the ultra-experienced mechanic told me he could tune the squealing cantis to complete silence, other than the rub or rubber on the rim, without a fork mounted hanger.

He did! I'm still trying to work out how. But one obvious change he made was to rotate the pads so that they were long sides forwards instead of back. But this can't be everything because I'm sure I've tried that myself. I'll take a photo and very careful measurements then play around when I have time...

Modulation and power are very, very good - not quite as good as my Lava Dome MTB with its fork mounted hanger, but it also has a much beefier stem, possibly stiffer cant mounts, different pads, etc.

Edited to add:
I'm less impressed now that I have new and grippier tyres on my crosser. The brakes could put the old tyres into a braking skid on a slope, but not the new ones. As much grip as the tyres have I don't think they're better than the Lava Dome's: I'll order a fork mounted hanger and finish the job myself.

meanwhile
03-31-11, 08:56 AM
Fair enough.

Nicely done! Thanks!

scrub
04-05-11, 05:58 PM
On my 2002 Jamis Nova I run Planet Bike fenders with Conti Gators in 28 witha tektro fork mounted cable hanger and CR 720s. I also use an inline barrel adjuster above the hanger.

http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j170/scrub7uk/004-19.jpg

MrPolak
04-07-11, 07:27 PM
A good comparison of canti brakes and mini-v brakes (http://cycling.sport24blog.com/2010/10/07/%E2%80%99cross-brake-check-trp%E2%80%99s-new-mini-v-brake-and-eurox-magnesium/)

http://cycling.sport24blog.com/wp-content/plugins/wp-o-matic/cache/b6b71_CX5-300x200.jpg

http://cycling.sport24blog.com/wp-content/plugins/wp-o-matic/cache/c682d_CX1-300x200.jpg

meanwhile
04-12-11, 06:36 PM
Ohmigawd:

http://www.circleacycles.com/cantilevers/canti-geometry.pdf

Look at the graphs!

GrayJay
04-13-11, 11:34 AM
Ohmigawd:

http://www.circleacycles.com/cantilevers/canti-geometry.pdf

Look at the graphs!

It is defintily helpfull to read the arcticle through several times and give it some thought, lots of great info. Note that in Figure 3, as the brakes are applied the arm swing angle goes from large angle to smaller angle (travel along the graph from right to left). This nicely demonstrates how the wide and ultra wide setups have progressive mechanical advantage and the narrow angle cantilevers have pretty severe regressive mechanical advantage change through their movement range.

Andy_K
04-13-11, 12:13 PM
Ohmigawd:

http://www.circleacycles.com/cantilevers/canti-geometry.pdf

Look at the graphs!

I love that article and the corresponding visual calculator: http://www.circleacycles.com/cantilevers/

In my mind, it has replaced Sheldon Brown as the standard Internet resource for cantilever setup. It would be great if we could get people to measure their brakes and report the relevant numbers for use in the visual calculator. I would also be curious to hear what MA works best for various people.

meanwhile
04-13-11, 12:54 PM
I love that article and the corresponding visual calculator: http://www.circleacycles.com/cantilevers/

In my mind, it has replaced Sheldon Brown as the standard Internet resource for cantilever setup. It would be great if we could get people to measure their brakes and report the relevant numbers for use in the visual calculator. I would also be curious to hear what MA works best for various people.

Yes - I'd especially like figures for the Avid Shorty Ultimate in both positions (it flips through what looks like 90 degrees.)

swc7916
04-13-11, 01:49 PM
These are the cantilevers on my tandems. They are the best and easiest-to-adjust I have ever used.

http://inlinethumb59.webshots.com/45114/2501701930103161311S500x500Q85.jpg (http://sports.webshots.com/photo/2501701930103161311OVYeNB)

(This photo was taken when the bike was just built and the brakes were not adjusted yet.)

GrayJay
04-13-11, 02:09 PM
Looking at pictures of the Avid Ultimates (Velonews review), it looks like the narrow position is around 30° cantilever angle (As defined by circleacycles paper) and the wide position is around 88° (arms angled 12° above the horizontal line between the mounting post) so a difference of 58° between the two postions. These "measeurements" are just from pictures and probably represent resting brake position the more meaningfull measurements would be taken when pad contacts the rim so are probably a bit narrower. Actual angle would also depend on individual placement of the cantilever mounting stud on the frame (narrower width between post yields increase in cantilever angle).
Looks like thar PA arm length is around 1.3X the PR length.
Rough calculation of the mechanical advantage would be around 3.2 for the narrow and 2.1 with the wide stance (with low saddle cable) but the MA of the narrow stance setup falls off really fast as the brakes are actuated and the cable hangar is raised. Avid says that narrow stance is 20% more braking force.

meanwhile
04-13-11, 04:53 PM
These are the cantilevers on my tandems. They are the best and easiest-to-adjust I have ever used.


I've heard of these - they're Rodriguez Elephants???

meanwhile
04-13-11, 04:56 PM
Looking at pictures of the Avid Ultimates (Velonews review), it looks like the narrow position is around 30° cantilever angle (As defined by circleacycles paper) and the wide position is around 88° (arms angled 12° above the horizontal line between the mounting post) so a difference of 58° between the two postions. These "measeurements" are just from pictures and probably represent resting brake position the more meaningfull measurements would be taken when pad contacts the rim so are probably a bit narrower. Actual angle would also depend on individual placement of the cantilever mounting stud on the frame (narrower width between post yields increase in cantilever angle).
Looks like thar PA arm length is around 1.3X the PR length.
Rough calculation of the mechanical advantage would be around 3.2 for the narrow and 2.1 with the wide stance (with low saddle cable) but the MA of the narrow stance setup falls off really fast as the brakes are actuated and the cable hangar is raised. Avid says that narrow stance is 20% more braking force.

Thanks - didn't Zinn like these a lot? The price of a pair (ie enough for one wheel) of ASUs in the UK is an insane $145, btw!

Andy_K
05-04-11, 11:19 AM
A couple of minor editing comments...


2. Single speeds and bar con bikes can get easy compatibility by using v-brake road levers
Special v-brake compatible drop bar levers are available. These will work directly with standard v-brakes and disc brakes. These levers do NOT include shifter controllers, but if you're riding singlespeed or with bar cons they may be a good choice.

This is misplaced in the mechanical advantage discussion. It should be moved to the V-brake section.


1. The ultimate reference and other useful links
...
Squeal and judder:

http://velonews.competitor.com/2010/09/cyclocross/technical-qa-with-lennard-zinn-return-to-cross_101807

You've got this in there twice.


Also, there's nothing on link wires vs. straddle cables in the current main post.

Andy_K
05-04-11, 11:34 AM
It occurred to me this morning that a section on brake levers and hand position might be beneficial, particularly for people with small hands. Here's my first try at it. Pictures might help here.

X. Brake levers and hand position

As their name implies, brake levers use leverage to translate hand force into braking force. Your actual leverage will vary depending on where you squeeze the lever. For instance, if your hands are on the brake hoods, you may be applying your hand force very close to the pivot point of the brake lever, particularly if you have small hands. This will result in much less braking force than you would have if you squeeze the lever closer to the end, as you would when riding in the drops. Much of the perceived difference in braking power between V-brakes and cantilever brakes may be attributable to this difference in leverage.

Cross levers provide another option which allows you to utilize greater leverage than you may get when braking from the hoods, while still allowing an upright riding position. You will have better control over the bike, particularly at high speeds, when braking from the drops than when using cross levers, but for some situations such as coming to a stop in traffic, the cross levers offer an excellent alternative.

If you have small hands, you may have difficulty reaching the brake levers when riding in the drops. Shimano STI levers come with a reach adjustment pad that can be used to set up the brake lever closer to the bars. This pad effectively reduces the travel of the lever by having it partially pulled in the rest position, so it offers no advantage when you are braking from the hoods, but it can help with braking from the drops.

fietsbob
10-10-11, 05:37 PM
one addition to the Type of calipers , is a category long a part of classical Mechanics,
where the fulcrum, or pivot is..

Type 1 .. Mafac and many subsequent L shaped calipers,
the work (brake pad) and the effort arm (ends where the cable fittings are)
are on opposite sides of the pivot..
U brakes are also of this type lever.

Type 2 .. V and low profile calipers , the pivot is on the end,
the work being done is between the fulcrum, and the end of the effort arm .

nayr497
03-06-12, 02:04 PM
This is awesome! Never come across it but wish I had read it before my first season of cross racing;)

I have a question about brake pads - how do I tell (by looking? or do I need to pull them?) what type of brake pads I need? I'd like to replace them on each of my cross bikes.

One set of brakes is the Tektro Oryx with stock pads. Here is that brake:
http://www.jensonusa.com/Tektro-Oryx

The other brakes are some FSA SL-Ks. Here they are:
http://www.universalcycles.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=32394

I'm trying to figure out which type of Kool Stop pads/holders to go with. Smooth:
http://www.biketiresdirect.com/product/kool-stop-cross-smooth-post-pad-holders

Or threaded:
http://www.biketiresdirect.com/product/kool-stop-cross-threaded-post-pad-holders

From looking at the brakes and the photos of the holders/pads it would appear that both are threaded. But, I'm not positive. Sorry, I'm sure this is an dumb question but I don't have much experience with cantilever brakes, but I am getting better!

On a related note, a dude I know who used to work as a mechanic and knows his stuff told me I'd need a cross/connecting wire for the rear FSA brake made by FSA. He couldn't really tell me why. I needed one before a race and tried just any old brake cable. It worked and has been working just fine.

Was he just trying to give me a hard time or could there be some merit to this?

nayr497
03-09-12, 10:58 AM
Any help, anyone?

Cynikal
03-09-12, 11:04 AM
You want the threaded style pad for both those brakes. Get the short ones like you posted and not the longer vbrake type. They will clear the fork blade better.

fietsbob
03-09-12, 11:28 AM
Yea there are road insert, short tail pad holders for Cross setups
with V brake type bolts on mounts .. to have the spherical washer set going on.

that is what these are: http://www.biketiresdirect.com/product/kool-stop-cross-threaded-post-pad-holders

Cynikal
03-09-12, 11:34 AM
My only gripe with the koolstop holders is that the bolt is too short. I had to replace mine with longer bolts.

fietsbob
03-09-12, 12:33 PM
Before the big Taiwan factories picked up the idea and mass conmsumer-ized it
the Race mechanics just sawed off the long tails of the Available pads.

bigbenaugust
03-09-12, 02:57 PM
I love this thread. I think I got Z-link cables a touch too long for my Tektro Oryx cantis.

nayr497
04-17-12, 12:53 PM
Cool, thanks for the help folks!

nayr497
05-24-12, 09:38 AM
Has anyone tried the Frogglegs cantis? Hard to find much info on them...or anyone who has even heard of them or tried them.

http://www.probikekit.com/us/components/brakes-and-pads/brake-calipers/frogglegs-cantilever-brakeset-standard-pads.html

I have some Tektro Oryx cantis on a cross bike and they aren't so great. But...could just be the stock pads, which have worn extremely fast. I either need to replace the pads or I could just try the Frogglegs. Those brakes + pads would be about the same price as just Kool Stop pads + holders. But I might be back to square 1 if those stock pads are junk.

I wonder if it's a lateral move to go from the Oryx to the Frogglegs? Thoughts?

fietsbob
05-24-12, 10:50 AM
TRP copied the Empella Frog legs, Their EuroX, now from TW.
http://www.cyclocrossworld.com/cyclocross-brakes
Note the shape, face of edge towards center, .. convex arch..
I tried the originals , but since my fork bosses
were too close together , I re-sold them.

found the Belgian Spooky calipers, close out, they lost market share too.
like old Mafac/Modolo Cantilevers
their concave shape lets me rotate the shoe down,
so they work with my old fork.
the Ridley 4ZA may have worked too..

Note you are changing to a lower MA caliper, benefit is:
it will let you run with more clearance, pad to rim,
for muddy courses. before the muck builds up..

GrayJay
05-24-12, 12:50 PM
I recently got some older 4ZA branded cantilevers, exact same design as Empella Frog legs & EuroX. What suprized me about the design that all these high-end CX brakes utilizing pads with unthreaded post is that the brake has no provision for adjusting pad toe other than bending parts. There are unthreaded post brake pad holders that utilize removeable pads and which have provision for toe adjustment built into the pad holder, probably a very good idea if you are using this style brake, dont cheap out and get the lower end models that come without adjustable & replaceable pad holds.
Other alternative option for wide stance brakes to consider are those like the Kore Kross and Teckto 720 which use threaded post pads and are easily adjustable for toe with concave washers.

Cynikal
05-24-12, 01:03 PM
If you want those brakes buy these pads to go with them. I did this with a set of orgin8's cantis and they worked great.

http://store.velo-orange.com/index.php/components/brakes/pads-parts/vo-reglable-cantilever-pads-w-vo-squeal-free-shoes.html

Not bad for $18.

nayr497
06-04-12, 09:47 AM
Ah, so now I realize the Frogglegs have an unthreaded brake pad post. Is there a pro/con of threaded/non-threaded?

I'm trying to figure out the best (and most cost-effective) way to improve my braking situation. I have some Tektro Oryx brakes on one of my cross bikes, used mainly for around-town/rain day road rides. I'll likely never race it, as I have a cx race bike. Mud clearance not much of a consideration.

The stock pads are well worn. I'd either like to get some Kool Stop pads/holders or the Frogglegs. The price would be about the same for either. I just wonder if they Oryx are so bad that I should consider new brakes. They're paired with Shimano 5700 shifters. The set-up seems to be pretty good, just really poor stock pads. (but never used them with nice pads, so really can't be sure)

Good to know, Cynikal regarding the pads. I guess right now I'd rather just get new pads or get the Frogglegs. But if the FL pads are awful, I'm back to square one.

nayr497
06-04-12, 10:05 AM
I recently got some older 4ZA branded cantilevers, exact same design as Empella Frog legs & EuroX. What suprized me about the design that all these high-end CX brakes utilizing pads with unthreaded post is that the brake has no provision for adjusting pad toe other than bending parts. There are unthreaded post brake pad holders that utilize removeable pads and which have provision for toe adjustment built into the pad holder, probably a very good idea if you are using this style brake, dont cheap out and get the lower end models that come without adjustable & replaceable pad holds.
Other alternative option for wide stance brakes to consider are those like the Kore Kross and Teckto 720 which use threaded post pads and are easily adjustable for toe with concave washers.

In reading back through this it seems that you are saying the Frogglegs are unthreaded and don't in fact have any provision for toeing in. And the pads/posts are not replaceable. Hmm, since my Oryx seem to work okay and I know they fit my fork/bike...maybe at this point it would be best to just grab some of the nice Kool Stop pads.

And, this bike isn't raced or really even ridden too hard, but some road rides in the rain. Would still like the brakes to work well, but not exactly a high-perfomance bike or anything.

fietsbob
06-04-12, 01:10 PM
Back in the day of Mafac cantilevers, and Modolos, for toe in,
we would just bend the post in relation to the shoe holder..

TRP also has an in-place angle adjustable brake shoe ,
though that VO one is cheaper. (+shipping)

Mafac cantilevers, with the Plain post , work well on touring forks
which have the bosses set up fairly closely spaced.

Shoe/post gets rotated downward, relative to the part,
as the posts get closer together.

Built a touring bike frame and fork in the 70's
The first brake adjustment
was where I put the brake bosses on the frame.

GrayJay
06-05-12, 04:26 PM
In reading back through this it seems that you are saying the Frogglegs are unthreaded and don't in fact have any provision for toeing in. And the pads/posts are not replaceable. Hmm, since my Oryx seem to work okay and I know they fit my fork/bike...maybe at this point it would be best to just grab some of the nice Kool Stop pads.

And, this bike isn't raced or really even ridden too hard, but some road rides in the rain. Would still like the brakes to work well, but not exactly a high-perfomance bike or anything.

Wide angle brakes (Such as frogleggs) inherently have less mechanical advantage than a narrow angle brake such as the Oryx. The post/pad is definitly a replaceable item apart from the cantilever arm. With most cheaper pads, the post is permanently attached to the pad and you just replace the entire post+pad. Nicer systems use cartridge holders to hold the replaceble pad, re-use the post, some of these have the benefit of toe-adjustment.

The main benefit of wide angle brakes is better mud clearance because the pads can be setup further from the rim. Unless you are racing mud or just prefer the classic look of wide angles, I wouldnt necessarily recommend them in order to improve braking. If setup with good pads and proper (low) position for the yoke cable, your Oryx brakes will be able to generate more braking force.

With threaded post cantilevers (Using concave/convex mounting washers) it is usually easier to adjust pad toe, possible benefit of untreaded post brakes are perhaps a bit easier to make compensations for pad wear.

fietsbob
02-10-13, 04:42 PM
A story I found on the background of the brakes I just bought, typically a late adopter,
my wish was for aluminum, but Carbon was all i could find, on close out..
http://www.cxmagazine.com/spooky-brakes-interview-founder-harrie-van-der-burgt.

the Toe-In is resolved by TRP's Adjust in place Brake shoes/ plain post, holders..
bolt runs through the post and there is a curved face that allows the shoe to be angled..

meanwhile
06-10-13, 05:49 PM
This will probably be my last cantilever post after years of a close relationship with them - I just picked up a little used 94 Zaskar, one of the all time great hardtail mtbs, and the ankle/foot problem stopping from cross racing has only got worse, so I'm selling my crosser to someone who can make real use of it...

The Zaskar is designed for vees and I'd have to mess about quite a bit to install cantis, so I researched vee brakes for mtbs. What did I find? The best lever available is probably the Avid Speed Dial 7 because

Our patented Speed Dial® leverage adjustment system lets you determine the perfect balance between power and modulation of your linear pull rim or mechanical disc brakes. We’ve put the ability to change the cable’s leverage point into an easy-to-adjust knob on the front of the lever. By turning the Speed Dial® knob, you can precisely choose the feel you want


..I.e. they've added a feature to the lever that emulates what you can do by adjust a cantilever straddle...