Living Car Free - Anybody with experience at being car-free in Phoenix?

The bicyclists and bike stores I've talked to about being car-free in Phoenix all tend to agree that it's not very practical in Phoenix because of the distances involved. Has anyone done it successfully?

I did it for about a year. 17.5 mile one way commute 35th and Bell to Sun City West. It wasn't so bad. That was back in 1991, though. Bell Road got pretty mellow once you got past 63rd.

It's tough if you want to go a lot of different places though, as you have to figure out the least lethal roads to ride on.

The thing I really miss about PHX is Trail 100. There are no decent MTB trails that you can ride (or even take the bus) to around here.

I think it can be done if your keeping the distances short > 10 miles inside cities. As for Bell Rd. its bad now all the way to Sun City.

I think it can be done if your keeping the distances short > 10 miles inside cities. As for Bell Rd. its bad now all the way to Sun City.

Yeah, well, distance seems to be the big factor, and what all the bicyclists from Phoenix have mentioned. It sure isn't the hills. :) I'm not sure how much control over that I'll have.

I know that my uncle lives in Scottsdale while my sister lives in the south part of Chandler. Some of the attractions for me there are active chapters of the National Space Society and the Moon Society, I'm not quite sure where they meet.

I gather the buses have bike racks, but on my one attempt to go a long distance on them, the routing seemed to be a bit byzantine.

How is the air quality?

Phoenix has a fairly new light rail system. Fairly limited destinations, but you can bring your bike on the train.

http://www.valleymetro.org/metro_light_rail/how_to_ride/

Thanks. I looked it over. Sounds good.

OTOH, I've heard that Phoenix is not a good place to drive either.

I moved from Peoria,Arizona just outside of Phoenix 16 years ago. Air quality was poor back then before a few hundred thousand more people in. I've googled maps of what was old farm land and now all you see are subdivisions and businesses. The light rail system serves more of the east valley but not farther north to get to Scottsdale. The light rail is currently one of those projects thats not big enough to make a big over all difference and over 30 years late.

So it seems. Apparently the Brown Cloud is well established.

So it seems. Apparently the Brown Cloud is well established.

Are you thinking of making a move, Artkansas?

Are you thinking of making a move, Artkansas?

Yep. I'm unemployed. My family wants me to move to where they are and they have sweetened the pot a bit. So, I've been investigating and trying to compare futures in both locations.

The pluses about Phoenix: family; Arizona State has a decent Master's program if I decide on that; there are 3 space activism groups there that I'm interested in, the National Space Society, the Moon Society and the Arizona High Powered Rocket Assn; I've been told by the leaders of the Arizona Bike Club that they are looking for someone to organize a chapter in the area I'd be in; my favorite puppet theater is there; and the roads are flat and the blocks are long, so my average road speed will pick up again; the job market is larger and closer to L.A.

However, there are minuses: Arizona politics seem to suffer; there is the Brown Cloud over Phoenix and the long term water situation seems iffy; the Phoenix unemployment rate is higher than Arkansas and the houses are more expensive; And Arkansas is much more green and lush; Arizona seems to have a decent music scene, but Arkansas has it beat hand's down; it seems that the cost of living is a bit lower in Arkansas;

Another big factor is the cost of moving. I've calculated that it will take at least a month and cost about $3K to move. So it's a serious disruption. Then there are things like power bills which are much higher in the Arizona summer.

It's a tough decision. There are factors to decide between, but it's apples and oranges, and there is no hard factor, such as the job offer that drew me to Little Rock in the first place. At least there is no down side. I could stay here in Little Rock without problem, the question is would Phoenix be enough better to justify the expense of moving.

I guess if I moved, I'd have to become Artizona. ;)

Artizona if you do move there, give your self time to learn to know the desert. It is not like the mtn, ocean, forests. It takes time to see what the desert has. I moved there in the 80's for a few years and it took a couple to actually start to really like it.
Phx does have a large MTB community from what I have read on other forums.

Artizona if you do move there, give your self time to learn to know the desert. It is not like the mtn, ocean, forests. It takes time to see what the desert has. I moved there in the 80's for a few years and it took a couple to actually start to really like it.
Phx does have a large MTB community from what I have read on other forums.


Well, I have a head start there. I lived near Palm Springs for 8 years. So things like cycling in mid summer are not a concern. I've got my chops on riding in the heat.

I went to highschool in gilbert. being carless in phoenix is not easy. doable but not easy, plan on a bus pass and to learn all of the routes, the roads are bike GROUP friendly but single rider friendly is on and off depending on the driver.

Road biking and Triathlons are HUGE and you will see riders out daily with the clubs (landis Tri Club, Phoenix Tri club and others) out in packs on the weekends.

if you dont mountain bike learn to now. South mountain and the white tanks (depending on if you are east or west phoenix) have GREAT mountain bike trails. It is a very active community but just really depends on where you live and where you work. Plus each city has its own "special features" that you might want to go to which is where the bus comes in real handy

I went to highschool in gilbert. being carless in phoenix is not easy. doable but not easy, plan on a bus pass and to learn all of the routes, the roads are bike GROUP friendly but single rider friendly is on and off depending on the driver.

if you dont mountain bike learn to now. South mountain and the white tanks (depending on if you are east or west phoenix) have GREAT mountain bike trails. It is a very active community but just really depends on where you live and where you work. Plus each city has its own "special features" that you might want to go to which is where the bus comes in real handy

Yeah, I have been imagining that if I move, what bikes shall I use how? Seems like my old 10 speed could be reupped as a commuter and that my Hard Rock might get it's street slicks removed and knobbies put in place. But I might use my Kabuki Syd as the commuter instead, it's got more holes for attaching racks.

What kind of locks are needed? Around Little Rock, I've never found a need for more than a curly cable, but I'm not sure if Phoenix is a higher theft area.

eh I have been fine with a 1" cable lock (thing is beefy) but most use u-locks

Not too familiar with the area, but I do know I had a job prospect there and it was very low on places that I would want to move and be car free. The sprawl, the heat, lack of well defined neighborhoods, and lack of lush mountains turns me off. Instead I went for the cold, grayness, rain, and lush mountains....

there is defined neighborhoods, the streets are all on a grid pattern, the heat is 3 months and perfect the rest, lush (trees) mountains are an hour away...

IMHO it is one of the best places to live and I was spoiled by living in the foothills(just below Tahoe area) of NorCal while growing up....

Not too familiar with the area, but I do know I had a job prospect there and it was very low on places that I would want to move and be car free. The sprawl, the heat, lack of well defined neighborhoods, and lack of lush mountains turns me off. Instead I went for the cold, grayness, rain, and lush mountains....

The sprawl I dislike. The heat I love, and desert mountains. The key attractions are family and that many of the groups I want to be involved in have active local chapters.

there is defined neighborhoods, the streets are all on a grid pattern

Ok, sorry, I was under the impression that the "neighborhoods" were in fact cities on their own. Scottsdale, mesa, tempe and the like

I guess if I moved, I'd have to become Artizona. ;)
Darn it, you stole my joke. It sounds like a difficult decision. I don't know a lot about Phoenix, but I have heard that it's a lot different now than it was before the real estate bubble burst. Personally, I hate sprawl. If I lived in a city like Phoenix I would try to find a quaint older neighborhood and just stick close to home as much as possible.

Darn it, you stole my joke. It sounds like a difficult decision. I don't know a lot about Phoenix, but I have heard that it's a lot different now than it was before the real estate bubble burst. Personally, I hate sprawl. If I lived in a city like Phoenix I would try to find a quaint older neighborhood and just stick close to home as much as possible.

That's what I was thinking too. I'm not sure how many quaint older neighborhoods there are though. Most of Phoenix wasn't settled till after 1960.

Well, I've been looking at Phoenix. But I have to admit that it looks like being car-free there will be nearly impossible. I might be able to make a basic living there, with groceries, bank, etc. But participating in a larger life, going to events, meetings, participating in groups, seem to require traveling 10-30 miles, and the only bus line that would be near me shuts down at about 6pm.

So if I go there getting a car seems almost necessary, and with the price of gasoline going through the roof, its seeming more foolish. I looked and the nearest zip car locations would be about 10 miles away.

But also, I wonder about the integrity about moving to a place as in-conflict with my values of being car-free, even if I do see opportunities that I don't find in Arkansas. It's like being car-dependent seems immoral, though I don't believe it's against anyone's religion. ;)

We're getting a little better. I've lived here (Scottsdale) for 16 years and bike lanes are at least being added to most of the main roads when repaved. The rest of the roads require the usual strong riding tactics for commuters.

We do have two opposites that are in conflict for cyclists wanting to live car free. During the years of the real estate boom, the masses completely embraced the notion of "drive until you can afford a house". So that made for some serious sprawl. I suggest you just rent a room in someone's house and don't sign an apartment lease, etc. until you get your job situation settled. You could be anywhere in a very large metro area.

Once here, I think you will appreciate having so many sunny days, and given time to allow your body to adjust, you will be able to cycle in the summer too. (Hydrate big time!) I am extremely car (Jeep) light and commute year round to work (25 mile round trip average). The air quality is not that good. We aren't LA, but we're heading there if we don't do something about it. And people used to come here for the clean air and rid themselves of allergies, now with all of the development and nonindigenous planting, people come here and GET allergies?? Go figure?

The big bonus is the state and its land as a whole. The land in Arizona is what has always resonated with me - not its politics. A little fact about AZ is that there are more national monuments here than any other state and the Grand Canyon is just one.

Hope it works out for you.

I did it for about a year. 17.5 mile one way commute 35th and Bell to Sun City West. It wasn't so bad. That was back in 1991, though. Bell Road got pretty mellow once you got past 63rd.

It's tough if you want to go a lot of different places though, as you have to figure out the least lethal roads to ride on.

Agreed. Bell Rd is the most heavily traveled surface street in the city. I live off of Bell Rd and I can tell you it aint what it used to be. I pulled my cargo trailer down Bell from 68th Street to Cave Creek Road a few times. Yeah it's lethal alright. You better be bold in how you ride.

Thanks Sundance89.

As for housing, I have the offer from my nephew to use his house as long as I keep the utilities paid. It's near downtown Chandler and from what I see on google maps, it's about 15 feet from a bike path. I used to live near Palm Springs, so I can deal with the weather. I've read about the brown cloud, and that in the particulate category, Phoenix is right there on top when it comes to pollution. I've been considering some kind of mask, like the BioLogic or Respro ones.

I really want to be able to do a car-free lifestyle if possible. With gas screaming towards $5.00, it doesn't make sense to try and invest in car based transportation. I was freaking out about the local bus system, since the local routes shut down so early. But it looks like I'm blessed by being fairly close to the end of the Arizona Ave LINK, which runs till a reasonable hour. I haven't had a chance to see how well it runs on the other end so that I can go to evening meetings elsewhere.

I've been using google to see where potential employers were, hoping that like in LA they might tend to cluster, ie banks in downtown, movies in hollywood, aerospace around LAX. But so far, Phoenix all looks pretty random with small clusters all over.

Yeah, the land is pretty. I was out hiking in the Tonto national forest last February. But you need a car to get out there it seems.

Well, the decision has been made. I'll have to ask the moderators to let me change my avatar to Artizona. It was perhaps one of the most difficult decisions I've had to make. And the final decision was affected a lot by factors I wasn't aware of when I started to decide. The current issue of American Bicyclist was what pushed me over the line.

But in 5 weeks I leave for Phoenix. I'm already on the mailing list of the Coalition of Arizona Bicyclists.

In fantasy, it would be great to load up a few treasured possessions onto my Bikes at Work trailer and just pedal there. But I'm not sure all my bicycles would fit onto it. I tried to winnow down the fleet in my mind, but the recumbent and the Hard Rock have to go. I can't give up the American Eagle/Nishiki, it's got too many good memories, and besides, it's just perfect for Phoenix. There's a holiday parade in Chandler so I have to keep the Stiletto, and that leaves the Kabuki, my poor man's Rivendell. You wouldn't give up a Rivendell would you? And then there's the tools, the park wheel truing stand, panniers and spare parts. The trailer is more than full already. ;)

Congrats and welcome to Arizona, "Artizona". (Very clever) Out of curiosity, what was it in the current issue of American Bicyclist that pushed you over the top?

Congrats and welcome to Arizona, "Artizona". (Very clever) Out of curiosity, what was it in the current issue of American Bicyclist that pushed you over the top?

Well thank you. I'm looking forward to it now. That Red Rock Road in Verde Valley looks interesting. Maybe I'll get a chance to ride it one day.

Have fun with the move...Check out something like PODS (http://www.pods.com/) and then ride your bike out to AZ with the necessities.

Aaron :)

Well, I used the ABF containers on the move out to Arkansas. Got a good deal then, but this time they seem a wash to renting a truck. In either case, unfortunately, I don't have the month to spend riding, nor the available cash. I can wish though. Fortunately, the truck will be big enough that all my babies can make the trip.

I'll have to ask the moderators to let me change my avatar to Artizona.
Wondering what the moderator's response is or will be for your request to change your username? Perhaps just looking up any moment and seeing Artizona?

Wondering what the moderator's response is or will be for your request to change your username? Perhaps just looking up any moment and seeing Artizona?

Been done before and I am sure it will get done again ;)

Aaron :)

Congrats on your move. I lived in the Phoenix area for 14 years: in Mesa, Tempe, Laveen and Central Phoenix. Out of all places, Central Phoenix (all along 3rd Ave from Downtown to Camelback Rd.) was the BEST and the most bicycle friendly area and very suitable for a car-free lifestyle: goods jobs within 5-10 miles, lightrail, public transportation, bicycle lanes, bicycle parking at many businesses, gyms, many great restaurants and entertainment venues within a 5 mile radius so you never get bored. Businesses here are always accomodating if you have a bike. Another area that is quite desirable is around downtown Tempe. You can use Chandler as your initial base and go from there. Phoenix is miserably hot in the summer as you know, but with a light hydration pack with ice and water or insulated water bottles, no problem whatsoever about biking there year-round. I used to MTB when it was 115F (night ride) and people at work thought I was nuts. It makes a huge difference to get things done after the sun goes down or early in the morning. I was also a member of the CAzB and they were most helpful. I took one of their urban safety classes over a weekend and it was excellent. I recommend visiting Lux Café on Central Av. just a little south of Camelback Rd. to get a vibe for the area. Lots of people who work there are car-free or car-light and many of their customers ride their bikes there.

Wondering what the moderator's response is or will be for your request to change your username? Perhaps just looking up any moment and seeing Artizona?


The worst that can happen is that they say no. I doubt if there would be jail time for me if they don't like the idea.

Thanks Chris.

It's kind of what I imagined. At least I'm at one end of the LINK to begin with.

Did you ever have troubles with tires melting? In Palm Springs, I was running cheap Kenda tires, and if I stayed still too long at a light, the tubes would try to push out of the sidewalls. I wrote Continental, and they said that wasn't a problem with their tires, but I never had a chance to try them out.

Never had issues with tires melting. I ran Kenda tires for a while but I used several other higher-end brands over the years, never had such problem with any of them. Be extra careful when the rains start (i.e. monsoon season and winter.) People drive like they had never driven in the rain before... tons of accidents all over. Many roads were not designed for those downpours so they also flood quickly. Those are the days you want to get on a bus, or light rail unless you are able to do a lot of canal riding. The good news is that you can easily count those days. It's sunny almost every darn day of the year. By the way, get tires that will allow you to ride on the canals. Pretty much the whole city is criss-crossed with them. Bicycles are allowed I believe in all of them, so it's very cool to ride for miles and miles with no traffic (except at a few intersections here and there) but many sections are dirt.

I had wondered about "Monsoon" season. From what I read, the entire season produces, on the average, less rain than we had in Little Rock in the past two days. Is it called monsoon because it is muggy?

Sounds like Phoenicians drive like Angelenos, trying to get home before their car gets wet. I had a feeling that flooding might be the problem and the reason for the season's name.

Is there a map of the canals, or do you just have to find them? I downloaded the official bike maps. But haven't had a chance to check them out in person.

My go-to bike will probably be a hard-tail Specialized Hard Rock with street slicks. So it should be up to the canals. But I was also thinking that my recumbent might be good for the longer distances as it's aerodynamics are better.

Monsoon is a meteorological event that occurs every summer in the southwest. Intense moisture comes from the south and produces rain. It is an event that normally happens in the evenings. If there is a lot of humidity it can develop into an entire day of rain. Before the rain, there is a period of strong winds, dust and lightning. If the day feels hot and muggy and you see clouds in the east, you know something is likely to happen late afternoon or evening. The monsoon shouldn't be underestimated. Although, the rain is always welcome in the desert, sometimes the winds (and rain) cause a lot of damage. Last year (I wasn't living in PHX anymore for the summer), but it was an intense monsoon season with major floods. At one point, there was even big balls of sleet that caused a significant amount of damage throughout the entire city. For whatever reason, I remember that the last month of the monsoon is always the worst... mid August to Mid-September.

In regard to canals, the downloadable bicycle maps show them. Besides the bike lanes, you can plan many of your routes using the canals. The best all-around tires for me were city tires that had a little bit of knob or grooves in them with great puncture protection. Slicks or skinny didn't cut it for me, but you'll figure out eventually what works best for you.

For city riding and living car-free, your Specialized Hard Rock I would say is your best bet. If I were you, I'd leave the recumbent boxed in storage with relatives or friends until you figure out the city. Getting a bike ground shipped is not prohibitive. I did see a few people in them, mostly on weekends. Although I do remember seeing one guy every morning commuting to work about 10 years ago when I lived in Laveen. There was very little traffic in that part of town back then.

My overall thought is that the Phoenix metro area has come around in the past decade in regard to bicycle commuting. The cities have invested a lot in bicycle infrastructure. I never had any major issues with impolite or aggressive drivers. I thought the key was to look like a serious bicycle commuter... green fluorescent vest, lights at night, using hand signals to let them what I was doing, etc. Many of these tips I learned at the CAzB road safety class. You want to take the class with them as soon as you can, mostly to get familiar with AZ law. For example, if there's an existing bike lane and you're riding outside of it (bike line is too narrow or you simply wanted to "take the lane") and you get into accident, you're S.O.L according to AZ law. Also, each city has its own regulations in regard to bicycles and they they go over the major restrictions. CAzB will protect its members and they have access to a couple of lawyers.

Congrats on the move, Art, and keep us posted on your adventures in a new city.

Thanks Chris. Your info helps a lot. Sweet looking panniers too.

I will. It's a whole new ball game. Spent the day riding around some of the nicest parts of Little Rock on an absolutely perfect day.

I will. It's a whole new ball game. Spent the day riding around some of the nicest parts of Little Rock on an absolutely perfect day.

I know. I always spend a lot of time saying good-bye to a place before I move.

Artkansas, hope you move works out well for you. Moving closer to family is a good thing too.

Thanks.


It looks like the move itself just got pushed back a few months. That will allow me to finish some projects without loss of momentum, and run my lease out so I don't pay a penalty for breaking the lease. But I'm feeling better about the move as well.