Classic & Vintage - Finding the mythical AW 2nd gear

How is babby form...er...how do I get 2nd gear to work consistently on my AW hub? Even after replacing the old, rusty cable I can only get the hub to do three things no matter how much I adjust it:

I can adjust the cable so 2nd works fine, but I have no 1st.

I can have 1st, but no 2nd.

I can have 1st and the brief use of 2nd...until I pedal a while or switch gears up and down a couple times.

And yes, I know 2nd only engages within a .0000000001 inch of cable pull.

Is there something I'm missing here? Is there some adjustment I'm missing, or is it time to pull the hub apart and overhaul it?

how's your shifter? I have problems of this nature that were cured by a new shifter.

how's your shifter? I have problems of this nature that were cured by a new shifter.

Probably not a bad idea. I'll give that a whirl.

Have you tried these instructions?

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/sturmey-archer_tech.html#adjustment

I have had several bikes with AWs and rarely had the mystery neutral problem. Be sure that none of your cable stops are slipping. This was the cause of much woe for me on one occasion.

Tried cleaning the goop out of the hub? If the new shifter doesn't help that's your next stop on the fixit bus.

Tried cleaning the goop out of the hub? If the new shifter doesn't help that's your next stop on the fixit bus.

It was lacquered when I bought it, so I hosed down the inside with PB Blaster which freed up everything. Since then I've only used 20W oil in it.

The cable stop appears to be in the same place it was originally, and I checked to make sure the bolt-on adjuster stayed put on the new cable.

I've already got a new shifter on the way.

What kind of condition is the fulcrum sleeve insert in? How about that plastic pulley? I replace mine with the steel versions (http://www.home.earthlink.net/~steinborn/gentlemancyclistmerchandise.htm).(look about half way down the page)

Aaron :)

It was lacquered when I bought it, so I hosed down the inside with PB Blaster which freed up everything. Since then I've only used 20W oil in it.



Did you actually pull the insides out or just spray PB in the oil port to flush?

It does indeed sound like the shifter might be the problem though.

I agree the shifter could be the problem, but the cable, fulcrum, and pulley are equally likely candidates. Also, if the hub cones are way out of adjustment, that can throw things off. Aside from that, how much have you used the hub, so far? If the hub has sat for many years and you've only recently got it going again, I wouldn't expect it to work right just yet. I'd suggest you keep trying the various fixes mentioned above, ride the bike as much as possible, and don't do anything radical just yet. Coast a lot. Shift a lot. Keep checking the adjustment. Put a hundred fresh miles on that hub and I expect it'll be fine.

I agree the shifter could be the problem, but the cable, fulcrum, and pulley are equally likely candidates. Also, if the hub cones are way out of adjustment, that can throw things off. Aside from that, how much have you used the hub, so far? If the hub has sat for many years and you've only recently got it going again, I wouldn't expect it to work right just yet. I'd suggest you keep trying the various fixes mentioned above, ride the bike as much as possible, and don't do anything radical just yet. Coast a lot. Shift a lot. Keep checking the adjustment. Put a hundred fresh miles on that hub and I expect it'll be fine.

IMHO, if it wasn't fully disassembled and cleaned, and merely "PB blasted", then there probably is zero grease left in the bearings. Not only will it make tensioning the bearings a little harder but it definitely will leak oil like the Exxon Valdez if it is full enough to operate smoothly. That, and the clutch might not free up as easily as the rest of the parts. I'm just starting to be comfortable with pulling apart the SA hubs but I would imagine First/Second gear issues would show up more with a goopy clutch than Second/Third.

IMHO, if it wasn't fully disassembled and cleaned, and merely "PB blasted", then there probably is zero grease left in the bearings. Not only will it make tensioning the bearings a little harder but it definitely will leak oil like the Exxon Valdez if it is full enough to operate smoothly. That, and the clutch might not free up as easily as the rest of the parts. I'm just starting to be comfortable with pulling apart the SA hubs but I would imagine First/Second gear issues would show up more with a goopy clutch than Second/Third.

I won't pretend to be that comfortable with pulling apart SA hubs either, but I have done it several times lately! But I disagree, tentatively, with your last point. If your cable is adjusted right, there shouldn't be any problems with 2nd and 1st gears, because cable tension should force the hub into those positions against whatever resistance is caused by goopy grease &c. The opposite is true of high (3rd) gear.

The spring that pushes the hub into high (3rd) gear is a fairly large compression spring, and it's not very powerfull. If there's any resistance in the trigger shifter, or the cable (very likely, in my experience) or anywhere else, this spring may fail to engage the high gear properly. On some bikes I've had to pluck at with the cable, while riding, to get enough slack for the spring in the hub to do its job.

If this is the case; that is, if that spring isn't properly overcoming the friction of the cable housing or whatever, then it's very difficult to adjust the cable properly. This, in turn, makes it impossible to find N (2nd) gear.

The spring that pushes the hub into high (3rd) gear is a fairly large compression spring, and it's not very powerfull. If there's any resistance in the trigger shifter, or the cable (very likely, in my experience) or anywhere else, this spring may fail to engage the high gear properly. On some bikes I've had to pluck at with the cable, while riding, to get enough slack for the spring in the hub to do its job.

If this is the case; that is, if that spring isn't properly overcoming the friction of the cable housing or whatever, then it's very difficult to adjust the cable properly. This, in turn, makes it impossible to find N (2nd) gear.

You are right. I was thinking about it totally backwards in my earlier post. Going from second to first would not be an issue since the force of the cable would just yank it in. Going from first to second would be the most powerful part of the spring and not as hard.

But the 2-3 transition would be at the end of the spring's tension and the neutral space would be in the way. If the area between the pinion pins was full of gunk the clutch might have a hard time engaging properly into 3rd gear -especially if the keyway notch in the axle also was full of gunk and the axle key couldn't travel easily all the way away far enough from the sprocket end when the gear indicator chain tension was released.

Did you actually pull the insides out or just spray PB in the oil port to flush?

I opened the right side enough to spray the interior, and then I greased the bearings, screwed it together, and put some oil in through the oil port. The bike sat for who knows how long, but I've ridden it quite a bit with just 1st and 3rd.

Also, this bike doesn't use a pulley: The shift cable runs directly from the shifter down to the cable stop on the chainstay. It's held in place by a metal clip on the downtube.

this bike doesn't use a pulley: The shift cable runs directly from the shifter down to the cable stop on the chainstay. It's held in place by a metal clip on the downtube.

In that case, maybe you should try a pulley. I'm having trouble visualizing your cable routing, but if the cable can't move freely shifting will suffer.

In that case, maybe you should try a pulley. I'm having trouble visualizing your cable routing, but if the cable can't move freely shifting will suffer.

I'd move the cable stop up where it belongs and add a pulley in the proper location using either one of the S/A pulleys or one of the problem-solver ones.

I'd also pull the hub apart and totally clean it out. It's not as hard as it seems. It's something everyone should do once in their wrenching career.

I'm having trouble visualizing your cable routing, but if the cable can't move freely shifting will suffer.

Unlike most bikes, the cable does not run across the top tube, around a pulley, and along the top chainstay to the hub.

The cable is covered in the housing from the shifter to the cable stop, just as the original cable was. It runs through a clamp on the bottom tube directing the cable and housing down the side of the bike. The housing ends at the cable stop on the bottom chainstay, and then the cable connects to the indicator spindle.

It moves freely and I have no problem shifting it. The old cable also moved freely, but it was rusted and had a little bit of a kink, which I though accounted for the shifting problem as I thought it would prevent even tension in 2nd.

I imagine by the time the shifter gets here this will be a 300 post thread about the merits/techniques/voodoo of SA hubs. :)

I don't know if this will help you but I have the break downs and service manual for AW hubs. I will post it here anyway. You should be able to copy and save the image so you can enlarge it.

Glenn
http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm319/Glennfordx4/Garage/SutherlandsBicycleManualThirdED101.jpg
http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm319/Glennfordx4/Garage/SutherlandsBicycleManualThirdED102.jpg
http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm319/Glennfordx4/Garage/SutherlandsBicycleManualThirdED105.jpg
http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm319/Glennfordx4/Garage/SutherlandsBicycleManualThirdED106.jpg
http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm319/Glennfordx4/Garage/SutherlandsBicycleManualThirdED107.jpg
http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm319/Glennfordx4/Garage/SutherlandsBicycleManualThirdED108.jpg
http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm319/Glennfordx4/Garage/SutherlandsBicycleManualThirdED109.jpg
http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm319/Glennfordx4/Garage/SutherlandsBicycleManualThirdED123.jpg

Wow Glenn, that manual is much better than anything I found online when I was learning to fully disassemble and reassemble the AW hub a few weeks back.

This Sutherlands Handbook looks top-notch. I am going to do some research into them if they are this good.

HOLY SCHMOOLY (http://www.sutherlandsbicycle.com/SBSApricing.html#Anchor-Handbooks-6296)!!!

Never mind.

Yeah they ain't cheap lol, I borrowed the third & fifth editions from a friend and started copying them page for page. I would love to get my hands on the 7th ed but I'm not paying that for it, if I was doing this for a living I would nothing beats a good manual. I learned a long time ago doing motorcycle repairs that a factory manual is the way to go compared to say a Chilton's or Hanes it can keep you from pulling your hair out.

Glenn

if I was doing this for a living I would nothing beats a good manual. I learned a long time ago doing motorcycle repairs that a factory manual is the way to go compared to say a Chilton's or Hanes it can keep you from pulling your hair out.

Glenn

You said a mouthful there. Those Chilton and Haynes manuals are total rubbish and just infuriate me whenever I'm forced to use one and don't have the real thing. Those comic books aren't worth the paper they are printed on. The only thing they are good for is to take them up to the summer cottage and hang them by a nail in the outhouse...

The first thing I do when I get a new/used motorcycle or car is to find the OEM factory service manual (usually they can be found for a decent price at ABE books (http://www.abebooks.com/) online as I never buy anything new-new any more.) I hear you about pulling your hair out. Honda makes some of the nicest repair manuals. Every car should come with the complete maintenance manual and not those silly owner's manuals they come with. Then they wouldn't cost so much. How much money does it cost to print a book they already have to write anyhow when they build the car -especially if they were printing so many more copies of them.

I will check that site out when I have more time, I always buy the factory manuals also and still need the set for my Ford Bronco which goes for a good chunk of change on Fleabay. I sold off half of my library of factory motorcycle manuals this winter and still have a ton left that I am going to keep for now. I also bought the dealer micro fisch sets for Yamaha, Kawasaki, Suzuki, Honda and Polaris which cost me a arm & a leg but now with everything on line they aren't worth selling.
Glenn

Back in the day the microfiche paid for itself when looking for parts but these days many of the online parts houses have their own online versions of the microfiche right on their sites so it isn't that important to be able to look up part numbers like it was in the past.

I always hated being tied to the 100% mark-up (or more) local motorcycle and auto $tealers for parts.

You said a mouthful there. Those Chilton and Haynes manuals are total rubbish and just infuriate me whenever I'm forced to use one and don't have the real thing. Those comic books aren't worth the paper they are printed on. The only thing they are good for is to take them up to the summer cottage and hang them by a nail in the outhouse...

I remember one such manual a friend and I were looking at said to remove a starter from a vehicle (Ranger, IIRC - he's had more than a few vehicles) that the engine would first need to be removed. 8^0

I recently went though some frustration putting a new timing belt on my Legacy because the timing info in Subaru's service bulletins were incorrect. I ended up finding the correct timing marks though a site on Subaru/VW Minibus engine swaps.

I got the new shifter, but still have the same shifting problems.

I took apart the hub. The ball ring is missing a ball bearing and the pinion pins have a little wear (visible, but the pinions spin freely without any side-to-side wiggle.) Otherwise the hub looks almost new and everything moves freely. The only grease was what I applied to the cones and outer bearings, plus oil I've dripped into the hub.

Questions:

Should the sun pinion on the axle be removable? It's held on by a pin that looks like it was hammered in. The diagram above doesn't show it being removed.

Should I worry about replacing the pinion pins?

How do you unscrew the bearing cap on the ball ring? The diagram above show it being separated, but I don't see anything obvious (notches, etc.)

Is there anything else I should look for that might solve my shifting problem?

BTW - If you want to see how to take apart an AW hub, watch this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ea6krXSs-lc

The ball ring is missing a ball bearing

Hmm. Where might it have gone? Did you find a beautiful silvery sand inside shell?


Should the sun pinion on the axle be removable? It's held on by a pin that looks like it was hammered in. The diagram above doesn't show it being removed.

I've never seen that thing budge.


Should I worry about replacing the pinion pins?

Even if there were some problem with these, I can't see how this would be the cause of your problem. Are the pinions all sloppy spinning?


How do you unscrew the bearing cap on the ball ring? The diagram above show it being separated, but I don't see anything obvious (notches, etc.)

IF the hub is still attached to wheel, you can put it in a vice an spin it off. It's not necessary--in my experience--to remove it just to flush out the hub and look for problems.


Is there anything else I should look for that might solve my shifting problem?

They need to do way instain mother who kill their babbys. becuse these babby cant frigth back.

PS. How's your indicator chain? Not at all stiff with rust I hope. Every link should be free moving.

Hmm. Where might it have gone? Did you find a beautiful silvery sand inside shell?



I've never seen that thing budge.

Even if there were some problem with these, I can't see how this would be the cause of your problem. Are the pinions all sloppy spinning?

IF the hub is still attached to wheel, you can put it in a vice an spin it off. It's not necessary--in my experience--to remove it just to flush out the hub and look for problems.

They need to do way instain mother who kill their babbys. becuse these babby cant frigth back.

My pary are with the father, who lost his chrilden.

After some cleaning I found out the bearing cap is...well, a cap. Moreover, it was just loose enough that the bearings would fall out with a little beating. Say, for example, hammering away on the ball ring with a large hammer and punch to get it to spin off the hub body. Most likely the missing bearing launched itself into orbit while I was taking the hub apart.

I can move the pinions side-to-side a little, but this seems to be mainly because of a size difference between them and the space in planet cage. There's no real wear on the teeth.

Do the clutch springs get tired with age?

I just learned how to overhaul an IGH a few weeks ago but I wrench for a living and learn fast from the mistakes I made the first few times. So far I've done it nearly a half dozen times since then on three different hubs to make sure I new what I was doing. I think I've got a pretty good idea how the things work.

The bearing cover on the ball ring is a press-fit. You don't need to take it off. Just leave it if you want. It isn't supposed to be chock-full of balls. Don't quote me on this being the correct way to get it off but this is how I did it. You have to VERY CAREFULLY pry a little bit at a time around the outside rim of the cover and work your way around the cover. You should move about 10-degrees at a time and give the screwdriver a little twist to move it just barely. I went around twice doing this until it started to move enough that I could pull the rest off by hand. If you bend this cover I think it might be really bad and it'll rub.

The bearings are a standard size. I forget which. There is supposed to be enough room for another ball. That is called N-1 bearing fill. There is actually enough room for 1-1/2 more balls if I remember right so it looks like there is a lot of extra room in there. The guys at SA were not just being cheap and saving money when they built your hub...

When I pulled mine off there was a lot of goop inside but I'm sure it wasn't hurting anything and doesn't have anything to do with the shifting. If you put too many balls in they might bind and make funny noises or at least cause more friction.

If, after cleaning all the goop out of the inside you still are having trouble you need to look to make sure there isn't any excessive wear on the clutch (that little cross) and that it can engage between the pinion pins correctly. Also make sure that the axle key can move freely and that the gear indicator pin is not bent and that the chain isn't messed up. Be sure that the gear indicator is not screwed all the way into the axle key but 1/4-turn back. If it is too tight the chain might bind. Also make sure that no grease from the driver bearings gets on the clutch spring. That will bind it up and cause problems sure enough. No grease inside the hub other than in the races of the driver bearings I was told. You probably could get away with a little inside the ball ring races for the balls themselves but they don't need it and probably would just collect grunge rather than it helping.

As for the gear on the axle I had a loose one on one of my hubs like you described. It was from 1954 and the hub had MANY miles on it. The little rivet pin that holds the gear on was wore and the gear would move a little. This will cause there to be a little more gear lash felt at the pedals before the power would engage. I suppose eventually it will fail and the hub would be all neutrals except for third gear I suppose. The other hubs I worked on were nice and tight on this part with no slop. I have my eye out for a new used axle for that bike and will probably swap it out someday before it fails on me. It might go another 30,000 miles or break tomorrow. I don't know. Perhaps there is a way to repair this pin using some hardened pin from something else but how would you know if you were just making it worse. What hardness should this pin be? Too hard or too soft would both be an issue. I figured I'd leave it until I found another axle cheap/free.

Also make sure that no grease from the driver bearings gets on the clutch spring. That will bind it up and cause problems sure enough.

Hmm. Why and how is that I wonder?

Hmm. Why and how is that I wonder?

Um, grease is sticky?

The bearings are a standard size. I forget which. There is supposed to be enough room for another ball. That is called N-1 bearing fill. There is actually enough room for 1-1/2 more balls if I remember right so it looks like there is a lot of extra room in there. The guys at SA were not just being cheap and saving money when they built your hub...

As for the gear on the axle I had a loose one on one of my hubs like you described. It was from 1954 and the hub had MANY miles on it. The little rivet pin that holds the gear on was wore and the gear would move a little. This will cause there to be a little more gear lash felt at the pedals before the power would engage. I suppose eventually it will fail and the hub would be all neutrals except for third gear I suppose. The other hubs I worked on were nice and tight on this part with no slop. I have my eye out for a new used axle for that bike and will probably swap it out someday before it fails on me. It might go another 30,000 miles or break tomorrow. I don't know. Perhaps there is a way to repair this pin using some hardened pin from something else but how would you know if you were just making it worse. What hardness should this pin be? Too hard or too soft would both be an issue. I figured I'd leave it until I found another axle cheap/free.

Good to know - I assumed I was missing a bearing and was going to add one. With the current number of balls it's exactly as you describe.

Also, can't you just order a new axle? I know SA still sells them in a couple sizes for the AW hubs.

Spend money on a NEW part???

Blaspheme!

Aha! The hub is missing the clutch spring cap!

Where do you buy an SA spring cap? Even Harris Cyclery isn't listing them.

Where do you buy an SA spring cap?

Looks like they're out of stock @ Biketools (http://www.biketoolsetc.com/index.cgi?id=840300719357&d=single&c=Sturmey-Archer&sc=Hub-Parts&item_id=SU-HSA129). SJS (http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/sturmey-archer-clutch-spring-cap-hsa129-prod19129/) has them, but it wouldn't be worth ordering from the UK.

Where do you buy an SA spring cap?
You need to find someone who's had to take apart another AW hub for a spare part other than the clutch spring cap. I'd guess there are several of them on the forum, myself included. Why don't you PM me your address, and I'll see if I can locate one.

Aha! The hub is missing the clutch spring cap!

Where do you buy an SA spring cap? Even Harris Cyclery isn't listing them.

Not all hubs have that cap--I'm not sure that's your problem. Worth a try, I suppose.

I have a dead AW that might donate the spring cap. PM me.

Not all hubs have that cap--I'm not sure that's your problem. Worth a try, I suppose.

Let me guess...they quit using them later in production. This is a '71 hub.

I'm putting this on the shelf for now because I realized the crank I had on it was conveniently sized for another project I'm working on.

I had a '78 hub and it had a plastic cap.

I'm not sure the cap is really that important to function -and if left out wouldn't make much of a difference. Perhaps it makes assembly a little bit easier. Maybe the Nottingham crew ran out of this part from time to time and some of the guys in charge of production figured it wasn't a big deal to leave them out. By the end the quality control was starting to suffer both in fabrication and in assembly. Parts had to be sorted so they would work together because tolerances were getting so out of whack that not everything was interchangeable. Maybe a load of springs were so out of spec that the caps didn't fit on the end. There could be many reasons why the cap was left out.

My guess is that the shifting problem has nothing to do with the lack of the cap and more likely is due to either assembly error -something as simple as too much grease in an area that it should not be, the indicator chain screwed in too far, the chainlinks binding, or some other issue that might be a quality-control issue that originated in Nottingham from day one and is only now becoming an issue years later as some wear and tear brought it to center stage.

The first time I played with a hub I had to do it 3 or 4 times before I figured out how to get it working properly -putting grease where it shouldn't be was my biggest problem it seems. I don't listen well to advice sometimes and I know I'm not the only one with that problem ;)

Not all hubs have that cap--

Really? My 1937, 1951, 1954, 1957, 1983, 1985, 1989, 1993, 1997 and 2001 AW factory parts sheets all show a Clutch Spring Cap (K522, K529 or HSA129).

I don't think I've ever noticed a hub that didn't have the spring cap, but then again I'm not sure I'd notice if it were missing. It would be an easy part to lose or just forget about when reassembling a hub.

Really? My 1937, 1951, 1954, 1957, 1983, 1985, 1989, 1993, 1997 and 2001 AW factory parts sheets all show a Clutch Spring Cap (K522, K529 or HSA129).

Cheerfully withdrawn, then.


I don't think I've ever noticed a hub that didn't have the spring cap, but then again I'm not sure I'd notice if it were missing. It would be an easy part to lose or just forget about when reassembling a hub.

Perhaps that's it.


Let me guess...they quit using them later in production. This is a '71 hub.


I had a couple of early '70s hubs that didn't have it. One only had 23 bearing balls in the ball ring, too.

The Harric Cyclery web page listing the clutch spring (http://harriscyclery.net/product/sturmey-archer-clutch-spring-874.htm) describes it as follows:

This is the coil spring that fits over the axle to make the hub shift to higher gears.

The little cap that is sometimes found on one end of this spring is not needed.

The Harric Cyclery web page listing the clutch spring (http://harriscyclery.net/product/sturmey-archer-clutch-spring-874.htm) describes it as follows:

The little cap that is sometimes found on one end of this spring is not needed.

And a good thing too as they tend to get lost and it is difficult to source a replacement :-D

The little cap is only really there to let the cone nut spin over the end of the spring more easily when it is being installed. I suppose it is possible that the spring might get caught somehow on the cone nut and bind and twist during assembly which might be an issue -but you'd pretty much notice this when you were screwing the cone in and setting the driver bearing cone tension. It'd make that funny spring-binding noise/vibration. Once the driver bearing was set it wouldn't really be needed as the spring rests comfortably against the cone on one end and directly on the thrust ring at the clutch end. Other than being an aid in assembly I would imagine it is not necessary for the operation of the hub as long as the spring didn't get all twisted up when it was put together.