Classic & Vintage - Opinions on long cage rear derailleurs - vintage

I've built up my 70's vintage Motobecane Grand Record with a 46/30 TA crankset and a 13/26 rear, running a campy SR RD. This is a bit much gear range on the RD, and I am thinking of switching to a touring RD to give me more capacity. I've narrowed my search to a short list, and am interested in opinions/experiences with the following:

Campy Rally, first and second generation
Simplex SLJ 6600
Sachs Huret New Success

Also, if you have any suggestions on others, let me know. Thanks

I'm running a Huret ti Duopar and so far I like it a lot. Very smooth shifting and easy to adjust. The ecco is the same as the ti, except plastic cage and sells cheaper.

http://i936.photobucket.com/albums/ad205/aolk67/Photo0508.jpg

Plastic cage? I don't think so. Look at any one that's marked Eco or EcoDuoPar. I think the difference is steel parts versus a few titanium ones.

I could easily be wrong...and have never seen or used an ecco. I thought I had read here that the ecco used plastic.

Edit - Sorry about that...I had misread a post about the eco. It's steel.

I have a ti Duopar on my trek 720 and it shifts great. Also just happen to have one in the for sale thread also if you are interested;)

I run a Campy NR with rally cage plates on my tandem 12-34 7 speed with a 28-44-48. I get a lot more life from the Campy than the Shimano Crane GS rear deraileur with this same combo.

DuoPar would be an excellent choice. So would a Gen I Cyclone GT, though it'd be right at the outer limit of its capacity.

That is not a huge rear spread. Get yourself a cheap Shimano 600 and there are no worries.

I have four Suntour V-GT Luxe derailleurs. They can do just about 52-42 front to 36-14 back without problems. They were also marketed as low-end components since the 70's, so they're hella common. I am finding them very durable, almost to the renown of Kalashnikovs.

I got them installed on:
'84 Raleigh Olympian
'78 Raleigh Super Grand Prix
'80 Nishiki Sport
'82 Team Fuji

DuoPar would be an excellent choice. So would a Gen I Cyclone GT, though it'd be right at the outer limit of its capacity.

With a < 29mm hangar the maximum cog for the Cyclone Gt is 32 and with a hangar of 32mm or more the Gt will handle a 34 tooth cog and has a 36 tooth capacity while the OP's set up rates a 29 and does not exceed the derailleurs maximum cog capacity.

DuoPar would be an excellent choice. So would a Gen I Cyclone GT, though it'd be right at the outer limit of its capacity.

I like both of these, too. A Cyclone GT will handle a 34-tooth cog with ease in my experience. It will only be at the outer limits of its capacity with a 26 if you're determined to use the small chainring with the smallest cogs for some reason.

With a < 29mm hangar the maximum cog for the Cyclone Gt is 32 and with a hangar of 32mm or more the Gt will handle a 34 tooth cog and has a 36 tooth capacity while the OP's set up rates a 29 and does not exceed the derailleurs maximum cog capacity.

+1

You should also consider the Suntour Vx GT.

I like both of these, too. A Cyclone GT will handle a 34-tooth cog with ease in my experience. It will only be at the outer limits of its capacity with a 26 if you're determined to use the small chainring with the smallest cogs for some reason.

I never was good at math. Sixty fiver is correct--this setup is nowhere near the capacity of the derailleur, and would work even when cross-chained to the max. In my post above, I subtracted 43 from 72 and somehow came up with 35. Oops.
Given the total capacity of 29, I would consider going with a Suntour Vx-S, which is a mid-cage model and has a capacity of 30 teeth, if I remember correctly. This is more than enough. That would free up a Cyclone GT for someone else who needs all of its capacity. (That would be me--I tend to go for the lowest gearing I can get.)
The Suntours are also MUCH more durable than the Duopar, which again would be overkill for this application in terms of its capacity.

So does anyone have a Rally cage they want to part with? Does anyone have any experience w the 3 rd's I asked about initially?

Schwinn used a Shimano Crane (early D-A) rebranded as Schwinn-Approved GT-300 Le Tour long cage RD on the seventies P15-9 Paramount which otherwise had an all Campy Record or Nuovo Record drivetrain (36-49-54t triple crank and 14-31t freewheel).

They went with Shimano because they weren't happy with the shifting of either the Campy Gran Turismo or Rally RD.

I'm a big fan of the Shimano Golden Arrow (long cage) stuff that's on my Motobécane Super Touring.

With a < 29mm hangar the maximum cog for the Cyclone Gt is 32 and with a hangar of 32mm or more the Gt will handle a 34 tooth cog and has a 36 tooth capacity while the OP's set up rates a 29 and does not exceed the derailleurs maximum cog capacity.
Did I do the math wrong? I bet I did. Thanks.

I would use a Cyclone GT. I would prefer the first generation one, but for reasons of practicality would use the Mark II one that I actually have.

So does anyone have a Rally cage they want to part with? Does anyone have any experience w the 3 rd's I asked about initially?

I've not owned any of those RDs. All three command pretty high prices on eBay. I've never heard anyone rave about the shifting performance of any Rally so, personally, I'd look to the other two on your list if you're dead-set on one of those three. The long cage Huret Jubilee could easily be added to your list, I'd think. Talk about a sexy mech.

What dropouts does your Grand Record have? How about some pics of that French machine?

I'd look at the Suntour stuff others have suggested.

I have a very nice Cyclone GT that I use almost every day. My only gripe is one of practicality: it has no built in barrell adjuster. The lower-end stuff does, though, and works at least as well.

Sorry, it was redundant.

I'm running a first generation Rally on my Grand Record. It shifts fine once I adjusted the tension spring on it. The original owner had it added at the bike shop along with a Triple Campy crank.

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm26/mparker326/Motobecane%20Grand%20Record/IMG_1412.jpg

^ Very nice!

I run a VXs on my P20 touring bike and was running a 13 - 28 with a 40-52 which it handled flawlessly and have now swapped that to a 13-24 block and my primary touring bike runs a VXgt with an 11-34 and 28-48 and again, works beautifully.

I love the Cyclone GT Mk1 and the Mk2 is pretty much perfect mechanically although if given the choice between a Mk2 and a VX I would take the VX as it looks 10 times better, is more robust, and only weighs a few more grams (if you are counting) and have always loved their performance.

The earlier Suntour GT models are also nice but Suntour really hit their zenith with the Vx and Cyclone series... there is not a friction derailleur that will shift better.

The Cyclone Mk1 is one of the lightest derailleurs ever made and the GT model is lighter than most modern long cage derailleurs... only snobbery kept people from using these instead of Campagnolo on racing bikes and if you are looking for the ulitimate light weight touring derailleur with massive capacity this is it.

Huret Duopars work beautifully and have some nice features like an adjustable pivot but they are based on earlier slant parallelogram designs and are not as long lived as one would like them to be.

Suntour.

#1 Suntour Cyclone GT gen 1.

#2 Suntour Vx GT

Gen 1 Cyclones are starting to appreciate in price, Vxs are still underappreciated.

I just finished stripping a recent bike purchase of all of its gen 1 Cyclone bits and rebuilding it with other Suntour bits. The Cyclone gen 1 stuff will be saved for a future project.

I have four Suntour V-GT Luxe derailleurs. They can do just about 52-42 front to 36-14 back without problems. They were also marketed as low-end components since the 70's, so they're hella common. I am finding them very durable, almost to the renown of Kalashnikovs.

I got them installed on:
'84 Raleigh Olympian
'78 Raleigh Super Grand Prix
'80 Nishiki Sport
'82 Team Fuji

Had one of these on my touring build for a minute, 52/42/30 and 14-28, as long as you weren't shifting like a moron it worked great.

Despite all the enthusiasm being expressed for the Duopar, I'd vote for the Success. I've used both, and MUCH prefer the latter both for shifting performance and general coolness. 'Sides, it's tres francais, unlike some of the other options being pushed.

SP
Bend, OR

Despite all the enthusiasm being expressed for the Duopar, I'd vote for the Success. I've used both, and MUCH prefer the latter both for shifting performance and general coolness. 'Sides, it's tres francais, unlike some of the other options being pushed.

SP
Bend, OR

I was referring to this one:

http://velobase.com/CompImages/RDerailleur/97E31282-B088-49EF-B618-7FA5B5CD051B.jpeg

Not long-cage per se, but it can wrap a boatload of chain. I used mine with a 14-27 fw and 26-??-47 TA triple. It handled everything just fine.

SP
Bend, OR

I've been running the straight NR style Rally on a few bikes and I really like them; but then, I've only used NR since about 1972, so they seem perfectly normal to me.

Oh, FWIW, to me, vintage means pre-Japanese...

I was referring to this one:

http://velobase.com/CompImages/RDerailleur/97E31282-B088-49EF-B618-7FA5B5CD051B.jpeg

Not long-cage per se, but it can wrap a boatload of chain. I used mine with a 14-27 fw and 26-??-47 TA triple. It handled everything just fine.

SP
Bend, OR

I'd like to try one. I wouldn't call it long cage, though.

As long as you weren't shifting like a moron it worked great.

Yeah. Ive done it several times, where im in the middle of climbing and I shift down into a lower gear instead of up into a higher gear by accident. Sometimes it pops, and sometimes it does not.

What are the differences between these in a side by side comparison:

Cyclone MK.I
Cyclone MK.II
Suntour Vx GT
Suntour Vx
Suntour V GT Luxe
Shimano Golden Arrow (long cage)
Campagnolo Rally
Suntour Le Tech (i've heard good things about this one)

The Shimano Golden Arrow is a pretty derailleur and the GS is a little rare... I have always liked these for their looks but their performance is lacking and they are much like the very attractive 600 Arabesque in design with no B screw and springs that have a tendency to wear prematurely.

In this era Shimano was chasing Suntour (like everyone else) and these newer models were still nothing like the earlier Suntours in regard to performance... I have retired a lot of old Golden Arrow stuff while the Suntour derailleurs usually just need a light service to make them work like new.

That comparison:

Cyclone MK.I - Beautifully made, outstanding performance, and one of the lightest derailleurs made.
Cyclone MK.II - Does not look nearly as good as it works, one of the best derailleurs as far as function and weight goes.
Suntour Vx GT - My favourite touring derailleur, beautiful, solid and smooth.
Suntour Vx - Short cage version... beautiful, light, and superior to it's contemporaries.
Suntour V GT Luxe - A workhorse... nearly burstproof and a very solid choice and still pretty light.
Shimano Golden Arrow (long cage) - Well dressed but more show than go and where is the B screw ?
Campagnolo Rally - Have no experience with these... but like Campy's other offerings it is a solid derailleur with many fans.
Suntour Le Tech (i've heard good things about this one) - Nice but it is no Vx.

This is the VXs which is a mid cage Vx model with the quick cage... a feature that I love and wish modern derailleurs had. the chain can be removed from the derailleur without breaking it and makes wheel removal very nice.

I run one of these on my folding touring bike... the mid cage can handle a 30 tooth cog and has a total capacity of 28 teeth and it has been performing flawlessly for many thousands and thousands of miles.

Seriously...I consider these to be among the best derailleurs ever made and the VXs only weighs 211 grams which puts it very close to being race weight.

http://www.disraeligears.co.uk/Site/SunTour_Vx_S_derailleur_%282500%29_files/IMGP6483%20%281%29-filtered.jpg
http://www.disraeligears.co.uk/Site/SunTour_Vx_S_derailleur_%282500%29.html

Seriously...I consider these to be among the best derailleurs ever made and the VXs only weighs 211 grams which puts it very close to being race weight.

http://www.disraeligears.co.uk/Site/SunTour_Vx_S_derailleur_%282500%29_files/IMGP6483%20%281%29-filtered.jpg

Thanks for the explanation. I will be keeping an eye out for older Vx or Cyclone derailleurs when I am at garage sales and co-ops. It's great in a way that the Suntour derailleurs were outmarketed by the competition at the time. This made them a lot more common, as their percived value was lower. It gives a viable choice for folks like me who are not willing to spend bank on a new or a Campy derailleur.

The last V-GT Luxe I pulled off, came from a horrible quality low-end Centurion LeMans. I mean the thing had been stuck upside down in dirt in an open storage barn since the 80's. It even had Dia-Compe center pull brakes that were so low end they did not have a stub & guide rail in the middle to make sure they braked straight. I'm pretty sure I was able to fix up that V-GT Luxe without knowing anything about taking apart derailleurs, and that it will now run fine for some years to come.

I have a Suntour Alpha-3040 Accushift, that moves/returns back very very slowly when the body is pulled away from the frame. Is it worth it to take the thing apart and try to fix it? Seems like a much more complex peice of technology, and I dont even plan on ever using SIS. Not to mention, its so much more complex than the V-GT Luxe I just took apart, I still have not figured out how to crack open the thing!

This is the VXs which is a mid cage Vx model with the quick cage... a feature that I love and wish modern derailleurs had. the chain can be removed from the derailleur without breaking it and makes wheel removal very nice.

I run one of these on my folding touring bike... the mid cage can handle a 30 tooth cog and has a total capacity of 28 teeth and it has been performing flawlessly for many thousands and thousands of miles.

Seriously...I consider these to be among the best derailleurs ever made and the VXs only weighs 211 grams which puts it very close to being race weight.



Yeah, they're beautiful. I have a NOS one that I've been hoarding and waiting fot the right project. I enjoy looking at it sitting there pristine and new--it will probably make me a little sad to start using it and watch it get all greasy.

How do you adjust the tension of the spring on a Rally? And how do you figure out how much tension you want?

It was only snobbery and sponsorship agreements that kept the professionals from tossing their Campy NR derailleurs and swapping in a Vx or Cyclone as they were lighter and shifted better... a lot of the old Campagnolo kit is beautifully machined and very solid and Berto said that the best thing about the Nuovo Record was that it shifted poorly but was so well made it would shift poorly forever.

It seems like many of these old Suntours are still shifting beautifully after more than 30 years which is like forever for some people and it has only been with the advent of carbon fibre that Shimano and Campagnolo have been able to make lighter road derailleurs.

The Mk1 Cyclone short cage is something like 185 grams and GT version is 195 grams... these are lighter than the Mk2 Cyclone series.

When I bought my first road bike I could have bought a Campy equipped bike or a Cyclone equipped bike... the old pro who ran the shop said the Cyclone would make me much happier and save me a lot of money and some weight... he said it was some of the nicest gear he had ever used.

My love of Suntour started over 30 years ago and started with the Cyclone Mk2 and I find I like the older variants and the Vx even more because it also looks as good as it works.

My first road bike was a 10-speed Atala Giro D'Italia which came with Simplex Prestige plastic derailleurs. I upgraded to a complete SunTour set of derailleurs and shifters and was very pleased with the improvements. I even got the backwards-shifting front derailleur, which worked like a champ.

It was the V-GT rear, the Compe-V front, and the chunky shifters with the white sleeves.

A couple of years later, at my first bike shop job, the boss was a huge SunTour fan and called Shimano's designs "faulty," so he passed his biases on to me. :)

So does anyone have a Rally cage they want to part with? Does anyone have any experience w the 3 rd's I asked about initially?

You're looking for just the cage? I think you'll find that very difficult. As has been pointed out, the Rallys, both 1st & 2nd gen, command premium prices, unjustifiably IMO. I reckon they are mostly bought by people who are simply dazzled by the brand, just as I was when I bought mine.

I was using a 1st gen Rally on my touring bike (1975 Peugeot PX60) but got fed up with having to take pressure of the pedals and lose speed, just when you needed it to get up steep hills, in order to change down. I swapped it with a Duopar-Eco a few weeks ago and am delighted with the improvement. The Duopar is just clickety-click all the time and doesn(t seem to ever need trimming, wheras the Rally did every time. YMMV.

Berto said that the best thing about the Nuovo Record was that it shifted poorly but was so well made it would shift poorly forever.

:lol: Thank you for that.

I've just got a Vx for my Silk and think it looks stunning, too. I got a Vx GT yesterday for around $15 in case I decide to run bigger cogs at the back. They can be got very cheaply compared to Campag stuff.

I used a Huret Duopar on my ’81 Ritchey MTB for over 25 years (until the bike was stolen! :mad: Grrrr!). It was fabulous. I never felt let down.

I used a Cyclone GT Mk 1 for somewhat longer on a mid-70s PX-10, until I sold that frame last summer. It was so great a performer that I simply stopped thinking about it.

I have a NOS Suntour SVX-GT that I have never used, but is not only the last of the VX line but also, supposedly, optimized for 7 speeds. Someday, I might try it.

That said, I cannot deny that I have an absolute love affair with the Campy Rally – both the first and third generation models. They’re just soooo sexy looking.

BUT: The determining factor in performance, IMHO, is a Hyperglide freewheel and a good chain. Adopting these, I discovered my Rally suddenly shifted incredibly better than before. Smooth and sure. It really IS about the freewheel!

SO, I really want to thank everyone here for the serious trash-talking of the Rally. Because of that, I just scored a NOS 3rd Gen Rally as the only bidder! I couldn’t believe it.

I have no idea if the 3rd Gen Rally will shift any differently than the 1st Gen Rally, but it is a stunning piece of hardware.

I’m putting together my own Classic Grail bike and this wonderful piece is going to it. So, thank you all for ignoring the Rally(s). I was convinced I’d never be able to afford one.

THUS, without doubt, I agree that the Duopar, and the Suntour VX and Cyclone GT models, are probably the best functioning wide-range classic derailleurs. But I’m thrilled with my new acquisition.

Thank you all! :D

Cheers!

Oh, FWIW, to me, vintage means pre-Japanese...

I don't feel nearly so lonesome here anymore ....

It was only snobbery and sponsorship agreements that kept the professionals from tossing their Campy NR derailleurs and swapping in a Vx or Cyclone as they were lighter and shifted better... a lot of the old Campagnolo kit is beautifully machined and very solid and Berto said that the best thing about the Nuovo Record was that it shifted poorly but was so well made it would shift poorly forever.

It seems like many of these old Suntours are still shifting beautifully after more than 30 years which is like forever for some people and it has only been with the advent of carbon fibre that Shimano and Campagnolo have been able to make lighter road derailleurs.

The Mk1 Cyclone short cage is something like 185 grams and GT version is 195 grams... these are lighter than the Mk2 Cyclone series.

When I bought my first road bike I could have bought a Campy equipped bike or a Cyclone equipped bike... the old pro who ran the shop said the Cyclone would make me much happier and save me a lot of money and some weight... he said it was some of the nicest gear he had ever used.

My love of Suntour started over 30 years ago and started with the Cyclone Mk2 and I find I like the older variants and the Vx even more because it also looks as good as it works.

Practically, a racer needs to finish races as a condition for winning races, and equipment that works but is very dependable is adequate. Compared to equipment that is not a known quality that might work better, racers of those days would choose reliability. I think Campy was the known quantity, and the Japanese upstarts were not.

BUT: The determining factor in performance, IMHO, is a Hyperglide freewheel and a good chain. Adopting these, I discovered my Rally suddenly shifted incredibly better than before. Smooth and sure. It really IS about the freewheel.
I'm sold.

Last fall I put a new Hyperglide FW and SRAM chain on my Raleigh which has a long-cage Vx RD. I still can't believe how it shifts. I think about moving the lever and the gear shifts, clean and quiet, no muss, no fuss. It just snicks immediately into the next gear.

I just recently put a new SRAM chain and a Suntour Winner (I think) FW on my Peugeot with a VGT-Luxe RD. It too shifts quickly and quietly, better than before, though maybe not quite as quickly as the Raleigh.

How do you adjust the tension of the spring on a Rally? And how do you figure out how much tension you want?

If you pull apart the cage mounting from the derailler you can choose from 2-3 different holes to insert the spring end. I guess if you think you need more, move it one. In my experience, getting the chain the right length is the key.

BUT: The determining factor in performance, IMHO, is a Hyperglide freewheel and a good chain. Adopting these, I discovered my Rally suddenly shifted incredibly better than before. Smooth and sure. It really IS about the freewheel!



Cheers!

I've found the Sachs/Maillard ARIS freewheels to work extremely well, too.

That's it. I'm getting my Rally back from my daughter. You're right. The hyperglide freewheel really is a step forward.

I love the Cyclone GT Mk1 and the Mk2 is pretty much perfect mechanically although if given the choice between a Mk2 and a VX I would take the VX as it looks 10 times better, is more robust, and only weighs a few more grams (if you are counting) and have always loved their performance.

The earlier Suntour GT models are also nice but Suntour really hit their zenith with the Vx and Cyclone series... there is not a friction derailleur that will shift better.

The Cyclone Mk1 is one of the lightest derailleurs ever made and the GT model is lighter than most modern long cage derailleurs... only snobbery kept people from using these instead of Campagnolo on racing bikes and if you are looking for the ulitimate light weight touring derailleur with massive capacity this is it.

Huret Duopars work beautifully and have some nice features like an adjustable pivot but they are based on earlier slant parallelogram designs and are not as long lived as one would like them to be.

SunTours are great derailleurs, and in fact Motobecane used them as original equipment on late 70s models.

N.B. I do have to disagree with your assessment of Duopars as "not as long lived as one would like them to be."

I have a Duopar (Eco) I bought new in 1978 that I'm still using on my commuter bike, and it still works fine.
http://www.os2.dhs.org/~john/commuter/04.jpg

http://velobase.com/CompImages/RDerailleur/97E31282-B088-49EF-B618-7FA5B5CD051B.jpeg

I'd like to try one. I wouldn't call it long cage, though.

It's not "long cage" but there are two mounting points for the pulley cage. One is for freewheels up to 24T cogs,and the other is for up to 28T cogs. In the picture above, the pulley cage is mounted in the 24T cog position.

BTW, there is a less expensive version of the same derailleur called the "Challenger." The only difference is that the sheet metal pieces on the parallelogram are aluminum rather than titanium.