Bicycle Mechanics - Newer is better

One thing that I have never understood is the huge combined shifter and brake conbination. They are actually huge and heavy. They also put more shift cable out in the wind.

In the middle to late 80s we had the down tube shifters. They were out of the slip stream and had very little drag from internal drag in cabling. All they had was the under BB guide and the turnaround at the rear derailer. With so little in the way of cabling and guides the derailer adjustment almost never needed attention. Besides that the the shifter levers were quite light. The bottom line was to make the bike much cleaner lighter and less cluttered. The reach down to the levers was no big deal to racers as they are all hunched over anyway.

?

What's wrong with STI's, they keep you hands on the bars, which means more control than if you have to bend down for DT shifters. That bending down will mean a lot of time saved for racers than in they can do it all with a flick of the wrist.

Have you tried integrated shifters ?

Engineers need to pay their Mortgage, so they keep making new stuff..
+ there is annual Bike trade shows to keep the sizzle going...
New gets Press coverage.

I don't race, so I'm not qualified on the difference that STIs make. I'm guessing that it's a significant advantage to not have to reach down, particularly when front-back combinations are involved.

From a recreational perspective, DT shifters, bar ends, and STIs make no practical difference at all. It's just feel and aesthetics. I have all three on different bikes. I like all three for different reasons.

Most of what you say indicates a complete lack of experience with combined brake/shift levers (aka brifters) and a theoretical but not practical belief in how things were better in the past.

Since you live in Nebraska you apparently have never experienced the huge advantage that brifters give in hilly areas where being able to shift without letting go of the bars or while standing on the pedals is a major plus. And, modern brifters shift very fast and accurately so there is no downside in precision.

Also, current brifters have nearly no weight or bulk penalty compared to separate brake levers combined with downtube shifters and modern bikes are much lighter than their predecessors.

The aerodynamic drag of exposed cables is almost zero and both Campy and newer Shimano brifters run the cables under the bar tape so they are out of the wind anyway.

Fietsbob would have us all riding 5-speed freewheels with friction downtube shifters on steel frames and driving '53 Chevrolets if his postings reflect his actual life style.

Since I don't race I have down tube shifters on my bikes. I have had brifters on a bike and they are fine, but not necessary. Now they are so expensive I am happy for the simplicity.

One thing that I have never understood is the huge combined shifter and brake conbination. They are actually huge and heavy. They also put more shift cable out in the wind.

In the middle to late 80s we had the down tube shifters. They were out of the slip stream and had very little drag from internal drag in cabling. All they had was the under BB guide and the turnaround at the rear derailer. With so little in the way of cabling and guides the derailer adjustment almost never needed attention. Besides that the the shifter levers were quite light. The bottom line was to make the bike much cleaner lighter and less cluttered. The reach down to the levers was no big deal to racers as they are all hunched over anyway.

Your user name SHOULD be Retro Grouch. But that one is already taken... :D

Even when I was riding a road bike crouched down to the drops my height, my general lack of ability to "bend that way" and the need for a larger frame (60 to 62cm) made the reach to the down tube shifters a stretch and a half. And at a good turn of speed this stretch produced a very dicey bit of stability issues with trying not to crash from wobbling the bars. So all in all I'd say that the extra bit of cable and housing is MORE than welcome for folks such as myself.

And since actual true blue racers and folks that do pleasure rides on such bikes and in the same bent over riding position make up a rather small percentage of the riding community it's no wonder that we have so many bar mounted shifter solutions for all styles of bikes. Road bikes included.

Have you tried integrated shifters ?

Grumpy recumbent riding trolls typically run Gripshift. ;)

(says the guy with two Gripshift-equipped bikes in his sig)

I ran Ergos for a couple of years. Loved the easier access to shifting. Disliked only being able to shift one or two cogs at a time.

BUT, if I ever get enough scratch for a new race bike it will likely have brifters of some sort.

uh ohhhh, another brifter vs everything else.

It's a matter of preference and situation. I can smoke riders just the same on any shifting system, but many can smoke me too. That doesn't say anything about the shifting systems themselves though.

Personally, I like campy Ergos... the ability to pressure the system and shift at the same time going uphill is a great thing when racing... not that it's great form or anything. If I were to go do a tour, I'd probably take some bar ends just in case something breaks in the lever. DT shifters are somewhat of a lost art. I think a lot of people can benefit from learning how to use them, but I don't think everyone should use them.

I'll second HillRider. From a weight perspective, arguing that DT shifters are lighter than brifters is not valid. Entire bikes can be made well below legal racing limits with or without brifters, steel or carbon frames, etc... We are talking grams and ounces here.

Grumpy recumbent riding trolls typically run Gripshift. ;)

(says the guy with two Gripshift-equipped bikes in his sig)

I ran Ergos for a couple of years. Loved the easier access to shifting. Disliked only being able to shift one or two cogs at a time.

BUT, if I ever get enough scratch for a new race bike it will likely have brifters of some sort.

That's what I like about much (but not all) of the Campy line .... mulit-cog shifting: 5 higher, 3 lower

Heres an idea op, keep your stinkin downtube shifters and go out and race. just let us know when it is so we can all laugh as you get your ass kicked!!

Most of what you say indicates a complete lack of experience with combined brake/shift levers (aka brifters) and a theoretical but not practical belief in how things were better in the past.

Since you live in Nebraska you apparently have never experienced the huge advantage that brifters give in hilly areas where being able to shift without letting go of the bars or while standing on the pedals is a major plus. And, modern brifters shift very fast and accurately so there is no downside in precision.

Also, current brifters have nearly no weight or bulk penalty compared to separate brake levers combined with downtube shifters and modern bikes are much lighter than their predecessors.

The aerodynamic drag of exposed cables is almost zero and both Campy and newer Shimano brifters run the cables under the bar tape so they are out of the wind anyway.

Fietsbob would have us all riding 5-speed freewheels with friction downtube shifters on steel frames and driving '53 Chevrolets if his postings reflect his actual life style.

Snob alert.

Heres an idea op, keep your stinkin downtube shifters and go out and race. just let us know when it is so we can all laugh as you get your ass kicked!!

So components win races? Time to get myself some newer stuff.

That's what I like about much (but not all) of the Campy line .... mulit-cog shifting: 5 higher, 3 lower

5 higher? nice.

I could only manage about 3 up and two down on my 8-speed Mirage, IIRC. Of course my memory's not all that great.

Is it the higher end of the line you can coax 5 cogs out of or maybe just the newer 10-11 speed stuff?

5 higher? nice.

I could only manage about 3 up and two down on my 8-speed Mirage, IIRC. Of course my memory's not all that great.

Is it the higher end of the line you can coax 5 cogs out of or maybe just the newer 10-11 speed stuff?

I can get the 5 up and 3 down on all of my campy's but the three sets that I have are 10 and 11. But one of the 10's is pretty old. Also mine are chorus and record shifters.

5 higher? nice.

I could only manage about 3 up and two down on my 8-speed Mirage, IIRC. Of course my memory's not all that great.

Is it the higher end of the line you can coax 5 cogs out of or maybe just the newer 10-11 speed stuff?

All Chorus & Record have 5-3 shifting. Veloce & Centaur had it, then it was taken away for a couple of years and called "escape", then 5-3 was brought back through 2010, now for 2011 it's 3-1 and called "Powershift". Athena 11 was 5-3 through 2010, and 2011 is also "powershift" .... or "powersh!t"

If you go shopping, verify what you're looking at before you buy.

I personally think brifters are one of the great improvements in bike design from the last thirty years... clipless pedals, indexed shifting, freehub style hubs, mtb suspension, and brifters can make bikes easier and more fun to ride - although none is right for everyone.

The real problem is that, often when a new product came out, the (still perfectly good) old products all but disappeared - like top-mounted thumb shifters, down tube shifters, rigid mountain bikes, etc.

I've done many 200k rides, all on bikes with brifters. Last Sunday I did one on my 1973 Atala with downtube shifters, just for fun. While the ride went great and I had no trouble, I can certainly say with experience that brifters are less fatiguing and require far less mental energy than downtube shifters do.

So components win races? Time to get myself some newer stuff.
No, not by them selves they certainly don't but they can be a deciding advantage when you are racing aginst equals. The old saw "Lance could win while riding a Huffy" was true if he were racing typical riders but not against the worlds best and he knew it.

No, not by them selves they certainly don't but they can be a deciding advantage when you are racing aginst equals. The old saw "Lance could win while riding a Huffy" was true if he were racing typical riders but not against the worlds best and he knew it.

Well I'm not arguing there. I was just pointing out the fact that people can and still win races on DT shifters. Maybe not CAT1 and the tours.

One thing that I have never understood is the huge combined shifter and brake conbination. They are actually huge and heavy.


They're great. It's nice to be able to shift without moving your hands whether they're on the hoods or drops. With Campagnolo you can even shift to a smaller cog with your pinky from the tops. They're sized just right for those of us without little girl hands. They weigh less than downtube shifters plus brake levers - Campagnolo ergo levers are 337 grams (except for Super Record which looses another 10g with titanium internals) vs 210g for Record brake levers and 163g for Record bar-end shifters (it's pretty hard to find down-tube shifters) at 373g total.



They also put more shift cable out in the wind.
They put very little extra cable out in the wind (the six inches between bar tape and cable stop). Campagnolo ergo levers have had under tape routing since 1992.



With so little in the way of cabling and guides the derailer adjustment almost never needed attention.
I adjust my derailleurs when I replace the shift cables - every couple years for the rear and a lot less for the left lever.

The most awesome thing about downtube shifting is when you take the bike out in the cold and the levers can suddenly no longer hold the cable back and you have to ride home cross chained in small/small.

I now own 2 Rohloff IGH bikes , couldn't be happier with them,
all the gear sequencing is in the hub.

shifting is pull-pull with 2 cables.

Most of what you say indicates a complete lack of experience with combined brake/shift levers (aka brifters) and a theoretical but not practical belief in how things were better in the past.


I think this is worth repeating. I ran downtube shifters for years. I always figured they were "good enough." But for racing they are less than ideal. Ever try accelerating on a rough road while trying to shift? It's not fun and seriously slows you down having to take a hand off the bars. I can't afford brifters yet, but I put bar-end shifters on my road bike and it's a huge difference. I would have no problem using downtube shifters on any bike, other than a race bike. For racing having the shifters on the bars is definitely an advantage.


The most awesome thing about downtube shifting is when you take the bike out in the cold and the levers can suddenly no longer hold the cable back and you have to ride home cross chained in small/small.

Friction shifters? You need to tighten them for more friction. This is not a problem with the downtube shifters, but rather with how they're setup.

I am not old enough to remember when all bikes had DT shifters, but I liked them when I had them for the type of road riding I do(recreational). My first road bike had them, and it was cool to be able to shift either side with either hand. Also, ditto on the cabling being much easier to set-up and maintain. Current ride has brifters, which work well too, but I can definitely appreciate the OP's opinion. BTW Lance won a stage using a DT shifter on one side, no?

BTW Lance won a stage using a DT shifter on one side, no?
It was done once as a minor weight saving gimmick and only on the left (front shifting) side. Notice he retained the brifter on the side he shifted most.

The OP expressed an OPINION and was open to input. Thats INPUT - not INSULTS.

So for the general edumacation of all those that feel that downtube shifters are `passee` - Shimano still makes SL-79XX Dura -Ace downtube shifters specifically for braze-on and they compliment the Dura-Ace SL-BS79 bar-end shifters and Dura-Ace ST-79XX `brifters`.

And I for one would buy those Dura-Ace downtube shifters over the Tiagra `brifters` in a heartbeat. Not everyone that drives a road bike is into competition. And based on most of the riders I`ve personally seen on expensive road machines - a lot are only `competative` in their dreams.

So how about a little tolerance? Or should we vote and decide that bikes should only be made in one color too, and that an exam be required to decide who should be allowed to buy and drive a road bike?

The OP expressed an OPINION and was open to input. Thats INPUT - not INSULTS.

So for the general edumacation of all those that feel that downtube shifters are `passee` - Shimano still makes SL-79XX Dura -Ace downtube shifters specifically for braze-on and they compliment the Dura-Ace SL-BS79 bar-end shifters and Dura-Ace ST-79XX `brifters`.

And I for one would buy those Dura-Ace downtube shifters over the Tiagra `brifters` in a heartbeat. Not everyone that drives a road bike is into competition. And based on most of the riders I`ve personally seen on expensive road machines - a lot are only `competative` in their dreams.

So how about a little tolerance? Or should we vote and decide that bikes should only be made in one color too, and that an exam be required to decide who should be allowed to buy and drive a road bike?

Insults? Most gave their own opinions back. So far, you've been one of the few trying to elevate this into something more than opinionated banter. The OP based part of the argument on component weight, aerodynamics, and racers who are "hunched over anyway"... I'd say a majority of bikers aren't being weight-weenies over their components and concerned about the aerodynamic drag of 4mm shifter housing. So how is the OP framing the question? In terms of competition, naturally.

And just because things are widely obsolete doesn't mean that people don't use them anymore. I mean... Diacompe makes ratchet shifters in an index-oriented bike world and people love them. It's still smart to cater to those who like older tech if the market is big enough.

Insults? Most gave their own opinions back. So far, you've been one of the few trying to elevate this into something more than opinionated banter. The OP based part of the argument on component weight, aerodynamics, and racers who are "hunched over anyway"... I'd say a majority of bikers aren't being weight-weenies over their components and concerned about the aerodynamic drag of 4mm shifter housing. So how is the OP framing the question? In terms of competition, naturally.

And just because things are widely obsolete doesn't mean that people don't use them anymore. I mean... Diacompe makes ratchet shifters in an index-oriented bike world and people love them. It's still smart to cater to those who like older tech if the market is big enough.

Agree with you on two counts: MOST of the comments in this thread were fine. And a FEW were more rude than informative.

So why would you assume my comments were applicable to everyone? Particularly yourself since I agree that you were one of the posters that was providing constructive input.

Sorry if my post offended you -
personally I found a few comments pretty close minded. There are more road bikes being used for commuting and touring than for even amateur racing and different people are completely entitled to like different things.

Most Porshes and Hummers aren`t used in the manner they`re advertised either. Just about every consumer product sold in NA is primarily for pleasure only and thats just the way it is. There isn`t much other rationale to any of it - aerodynamics or not.

I've had every type of road and mountain bike shifter except a flip flop hub. They are/were all fine. The integrated shifter is great for power shifts and shifting through turns. I find bar end shifters nearly as good for those two tasks. My road bikes have DT shifters now-a-days because I went retro. (I do have two sets of STIs set aside for if my mood changes.) My least favorite system/placement is the stem shifter though they worked fine, I'd never consider that arrangement for a build. They were important to some extent for the '80s bike boom, IMHO.

Now to rydabent's original thoughts, newer technology isn't always better, but is important to some (look at the frenzy WRT new personal communications devices) and can be helpful, perhaps even essential in the cycling world for some cyclists.

Brad

PS I've a friend who rides a bike with the sliding weights to alter gearing. The system sucks as far as I'm concerned (I've worked on it), but it has her riding a bicycle and that's a good thing.

I have both. An 80s Schwinn with DT shifters and two more modern bikes with brifters. I can ride the Schwinn on any ride I do with my other bikes and for most part even hang with my fast paced group ride. On the Schwinn, however, I notice to very definite performance limitations as compared to the other bikes. One is that frame is much flexier so accelerating and going up hill, the bike is less responsive but the second is the shifters.

Brifters in my experience make such a big difference that you don't need to be racing to notice. The need to each down to shift when terrian changes creates two issues that significantly degrade speed andgenerally lead to more fatigue over longer rides. First, with one hand off the bars even for a second, one tends to let up on pedaling so that has impact on speed and so then requires subsequent acceleration to counter the loss of speed, which leads to more fatigue. Second (which admittedly is perhaps a personal issue for me so not generally applicable), because shifting takes more time and effort, I am far more likely to stay in a less than ideal gear for longer periods, and that has impact on speed and fatigue as well. For example, if I find myself going a bit up hill but know that a fast flat or downhill section is coming up in a mile less, on my brifter bikes, I would not hesitate to, with twitch of a finger, shift to a lower gear for the slight uphill then shift to a higher gear again when the fat section comes. On my Schwinn, I might just power through the the short up grade, not wanting to bother having to reach down twice to shift in a short period. But again, this second issue may be a matter of personal preference.

I think there is a definite advantages to the brifters in that I can keep both hands on the handlebars in traffic and be able to shift or brake as necessary.

I have dt, bar ends and brifters on my different bikes. The dts are fine but I notice I shift a lot less when using them. It's still kind of fun, with the retro brake levers that have cables sticking out the top.

Rec'd 2nd Rohloff equipped bike, that works for me , now.
grip shift of machined, anodized aluminum
2 cables pull the gear shift in the hub, in either direction.
Its a Bike Friday, the other a Koga WTR trekking bike.

put a lot of miles on my touring bike, 3 Europe TRips by Air .. 7 by 3,
friction bar end shifting.
Phil Hub, Freewheel.
Proved to be very reliable. never went out of index synch , because I didn't need one.

To each their own.. Worked on lots of SIS stuff in the shop, FWIW.
Wrench Serf.

I had Ultegra brifters. They were ok until they died after 1500 miles. I went to DTs and never looked back. Simple, easy, and all this hands on the bar thing. What ever. I use them in traffic out of traffic, you just get used to timing the shift not a big deal. Racing, I do not do any of that but I can't see where it would be a problem. Just have to think more.
Personally I'll take a gram or two for the weight. I run Sachs-Huret on the DT and am going to be upgrading my levers to TRP RRL alloy or Carbon 136g or 145g per lever.

The OP expressed an OPINION and was open to input. Thats INPUT - not INSULTS.

So for the general edumacation of all those that feel that downtube shifters are `passee` - Shimano still makes SL-79XX Dura -Ace downtube shifters specifically for braze-on and they compliment the Dura-Ace SL-BS79 bar-end shifters and Dura-Ace ST-79XX `brifters`.

And I for one would buy those Dura-Ace downtube shifters over the Tiagra `brifters` in a heartbeat. Not everyone that drives a road bike is into competition. And based on most of the riders I`ve personally seen on expensive road machines - a lot are only `competative` in their dreams.

So how about a little tolerance? Or should we vote and decide that bikes should only be made in one color too, and that an exam be required to decide who should be allowed to buy and drive a road bike?

Why is it that posts that start out decrying rudeness and insults generally manage to be the most rude and insulting post so far?

I had Ultegra brifters. They were ok until they died after 1500 miles.

First and second generation Campagnolo ergo levers are nearly the same mechanism as their down-tube shifters except there are two G-springs which act on the index detents instead of three and the up/down shift levers engage when you push on them instead of being permanently attached.

When ADHD shifting wears out my right G-springs I replace them after the clicks have become indistinct and before the shifter stops staying in gear.

I'm on the same set after 15 years although I did swap the index disc for a 9-speed part.

There are only two things I don't like about brake/shifters. First is the relatively high cost, although there are some more affordable (under $200 options now) and no (few) options to use them with v-brakes. Oh and having front shifters that work with road and not mountain derailleurs.

Your user name SHOULD be Retro Grouch. But that one is already taken... :D



The 3-speed trigger shifter belongs on the (upright) bars where god and Nottingham intended it to go. All those silly exposed gears, unrailer thingies, and floppy chains are an abomination.

There are only two things I don't like about brake/shifters. First is the relatively high cost, although there are some more affordable (under $200 options now) and no (few) options to use them with v-brakes. Oh and having front shifters that work with road and not mountain derailleurs.

http://problemsolversbike.com/products/travel_agents

I like downtube shifters for their simplicity of design. But shifters integrated with brake levers are functionally a great improvement. There's no taking a hand off the bar, slowing my stride, or looking down briefly while reaching for a downtube shift lever. I shift faster with integrated shifters. For example: without taking my eyes off the road or altering my stride and balance, I might shift rear, then front, and then rear twice; all as quickly as I could make one downtube shift. That's why I say improvement.

I had Ultegra brifters. They were ok until they died after 1500 miles.
Were they new when you bought them or were they e-bay or Craig's List specials? If new they should still have been under warranty and replaced at no cost.

My experience with brifters is exactly the opposite. I've had two sets of 105 8-speed brifters last over 30,000 miles each and were still working when retired for various upgrades. My two bikes with Campy 10-speed Ergo brifters have 15,000 and 18,000 miles respectively and are still working like new.

Note to Burton: Actually the OP was fairly agressive in stating his negative opinion of brifters and most of the replies have been measured and factually well thought out. I didn't see anything hostile or abusive in any of them.

I wonder if in the 1930s there were people that said, why does car need an electric starter? I don't mind using the hand crank to start my car. This is how I feel about down tube shifters. If I am climbing a hill I don't need to take my hands off the hoods to shift gears and when I reach the top of the hill I can drop five gears with the flick of a finger and with both hands on the bars.

Easy guys dont rev your motors without a load on it. I was only pointing out the simple logic of the DT shifters.

BTW tonite I went to my oldest sons house to help him with a door lock. He has an 86 Schwinn with DT shifters. The brake cables are under the handle bar wrap. The bike just looks incredably clean simple and logical.

For cat 1 or 2 racers I can see the advantage of brifters, but I still admire simplisity.

I think DT shifters are okay.
barcons are much better.
dual control are far better, IMO.

especially for MTB.

Other plusses of DT shifters:

-less prone to crash damage than brifters or barends
-most have a higher life expectancy than brifters.
-friction option is nice
-cheap to replace

Oh, one more, concerning friction DTs specifically:

I can swap between my 7-speed sewup wheels and 8-speed clinchers without derailer adjustment and shifting works great on both.

dual control are far better, IMO.

especially for MTB.

Wait, now I'm confused. Are you saying that, for example, an integrated Rapidfire shifter/brake lever is better than a Rapidfire shifter next to a brake lever? Because that wouldn't make any sense to me.

I wonder if in the 1930s there were people that said, why does car need an electric starter? I don't mind using the hand crank to start my car. This is how I feel about down tube shifters. If I am climbing a hill I don't need to take my hands off the hoods to shift gears and when I reach the top of the hill I can drop five gears with the flick of a finger and with both hands on the bars.

Well spoken! Thats exactly why they are no longer sold with most new bikes.

The first bike I purchaced had modded bar end shifters on it, so I have been riding with bar ends since. Right now I use bar end shifters on my main bike. Even though I fell over and snapped a suntour one, it only cost me 10$ to buy a used Shimano pair.

I do have downtube shifters on my 84 Trek atm, and I am horrified that I have not swapped them out yet. I've stalled on a hill and almost fallen into traffic. I have swerved and almost hit a parked car, while reaching down and off balance. I have hit many unexpected things, while looking down instead of ahead. I have stuck my fingers in through the spokes of my front wheel, trying to find the shifter. I have been using my dominant right hand to shift my left lever, causing myself to be even more off balance than intended. I have also on many occasions just not shifted, because it was too difficult or too dangerous at the moment.

I will give them the: they shift good, look clean, and are cheap. I will continue to recommend against them due to my experiences.

Too bad I have not been able to talk my fiance or some of our friends from using them. I am really worried for their safety.

Other plusses of DT shifters:

-less prone to crash damage than brifters or barends
-most have a higher life expectancy than brifters.
-friction option is nice
-cheap to replace

Oh, one more, concerning friction DTs specifically:

I can swap between my 7-speed sewup wheels and 8-speed clinchers without derailer adjustment and shifting works great on both.

Some would say that would work between 7 and 8 speed indexed too. :P Just sayin'.

One more thing... DT shifting can be FUN if you're into it.

Wait, now I'm confused. Are you saying that, for example, an integrated Rapidfire shifter/brake lever is better than a Rapidfire shifter next to a brake lever? Because that wouldn't make any sense to me.

no, I just mean the brake levers and shifters are right next to each other.