Professional Cycling For the Fans - I wonder...

What would happen if instead of "cooperating" with each other to assure that the
same riders/teams would be at the front of the race at the end, riders just RACED?

If no "deals" were made on the course and men just hauled arse with
the sole intention of not just being in the top 10, but of winning it all?

What would happen if every team just went for self?

What would happen if instead of "cooperating" with each other to assure that the
same riders/teams would be at the front of the race at the end, riders just RACED?

If no "deals" were made on the course and men just hauled arse with
the sole intention of not just being in the top 10, but of winning it all?

What would happen if every team just went for self?

I've always wondered how it would be if it were just every rider for himself, much like in motor racing, where there is a rider's championship and points are awarded according to finishing position. The guy with the most points at the end of the year would be World Champion. I think it would diminish the importance of races like the TdF a little bit, so people would have to train for the season and not just for one race, although you could award more points for longer races to even it out and still encourage participation. Ultimately I think that it's a little bit late to change to some kind of format like that given the long history of cycling and the way that the sport developed over the years though.

I've always wondered how it would be if it were just every rider for himself, much like in motor racing, where there is a rider's championship and points are awarded according to finishing position.

That's exactly it. Every man for themselves.
The Team works together to get to the end, but once there,
they compete against each other to see who gets the win.

When opposing Teams work together?
That's creepy to me. That's not sportsmanship to me.
The stronger teams work together it seems.
What about the little guy?

I don't know. Maybe there is some unique logic to it all that I'm not aware of.

But...I'd love to see the no-name racer one day come out of nowhere and beat the snot of the race favorite.
By himself. Completely going against the "unspoken code" and just laying the smackdown with his legs.
The thing is that I really like all the top riders I see. I'd just like to see them compete against each other.
Instead of working together to make sure that they and their buddies always make it to the top tier.

In my very unedumacated opinion, I think that this season, there are going to be a lot of surprises.
I think that there are going to be a lot of new "names" launched this year that are going to push themselves through the crowd.

Kind of ironic that somebody should post this just after a humble domestique in the Garmin-Cervélo team won one of the most prestigious races in pro-cycling, the Paris-Roubaix.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johan_Vansummeren

His only previous pro win was in the Tour of Poland, hardly a major title. The style of his win was also impressive breaking away from the lead bunch to ride solo from over 10km out.

Completely going against the "unspoken code" and just laying the smackdown with his legs.


Might happen once but the guy would have to retire - no DS or team would touch him. And I doubt that one crackpot could keep way the bunch esp if the rest of his team is behind trying to drive him into submission.

I also do not believe there are as many "deals" as the folks in this thread seem to think. Rare is a break where the antagonists are actually left out to decide who wins.

And as with the PR - normally when it does happen team matters dictate what will occur. Garmin had the right cards - one up road and one back (and the Rainbow at that).

When it was clear that Cancellara wasn't going to drag the group home Garmin "doubled down" and tried to play both cards on the table.

Not to take anything away from him, but VanSummeren would NOT have one if everyone was "in it for themselves". Thor would have hunted him down and Cancellara and Ballan would have been flat out helping him.

As it was, Cancellara left it just 19 seconds too late. Think about it - he practially rode the color off his frame to catch him ... and almost did.

If anything, this race will be remembered (in Europe at least) for the shear audacity of what Cancellara did (and what he almost pulled off).

Kudos to Van Summeren but he wasn't the strongest rider of the day. One guy gets that 'honor' despite being the first placed of the losers!!

A few more things to consider....

• The teams aren't always "collaborating" in the way you assume. Rather, everyone knows who the big riders are, and they're marked by the other teams. If a team tried to pull away from the peloton with its top rider for that race, all the other teams would shut them down out of self-interest.

• In the cases where riders from different teams are working together, they are doing so out of self-interest. A breakaway with a strong rider is going to get reeled back in, so the guys in the breakaway tend to be second-stringers and/or lucky domestiques who are either getting TV time for the sponsors or positioned to drop back and help the leader if he needs it. As such, if the breakaway works together they have a fighting chance of one of them winning the race or stage. One reason breakaways fail, by the way, is that they stop cooperating too early, which weakens them further and makes it more likely for the peloton to catch them.

• This year's Paris-Roubaix also shows what happens when you don't work together: You lose. Cancellara shot off with Hushovd and Ballan sucking his wheel, and took back 30 seconds. When he insisted they take a pull, they refused, and thus lost those 30 seconds. Instead of placing 1st 2nd and 3rd, they wound up 2nd, 6th and 8th. (That is, assuming that Hushovd and/or Ballan were able to pull without popping.)

• Drafting saves 25% or more energy over a solo rider. You're not going to get a no-name rider who can consistently put out 25% more power than every other rider in the peloton; even the best of the best don't have that kind of an advantage.

• Despite all that, the unexpected rider does take the race or stage a decent amount of the time. We've already seen that with MSR (Gerrans) and PR (Van Summeren), and you'll see it in the big stage races. In some cases the breakaway gets lucky (e.g. shifting winds happen to favor the break); in stage races, the riders in the break may be so far down the rankings that it doesn't matter if they win that stage.

• Road cycling is structured very differently than many other sports. In most cases you either have individuals vs individuals, or team #1 vs team #2. Offhand I can't think of any sport where you'll have 6+ teams in the field.

• Road racing is a team sport. If you can't make your skills work within the context of the team, you're off the team.

If that's not your bag, you can watch the time trials and get into track cycling.

His only previous pro win was in the Tour of Poland, hardly a major title. The style of his win was also impressive breaking away from the lead bunch to ride solo from over 10km out.

Ironic? Or timely?
That's exactly what I'm talking about. :D
That's how it "should" be IMO.

Ironic? Or timely?
That's exactly what I'm talking about. :D
That's how it "should" be IMO.

But do you uderstand that a solo attack from 10km out only works because of the team tactics that you appparently don't like.

No one can ride away from a pro peleton on flat ground for an extended distance if everyone in the peleton is working to catch him. It's all the varying team tactics that allow a move like that to sometimes work.

There is so much more to bike racing tactics than just putting your head down and going hard. It really is a rolling chess match, and each team and individuals on those teams, play their pieces differently based upon their relative strengths and weaknesses, motivations, and opportunites as the develop.

It's the rider, and team, that best figures out how to anticipate, and play the other teams reactions that wins, not necessarily the fastest rider, particularly in a one day classic.

• This year's Paris-Roubaix also shows what happens when you don't work together: You lose. Cancellara shot off with Hushovd and Ballan sucking his wheel, and took back 30 seconds. When he insisted they take a pull, they refused, and thus lost those 30 seconds. Instead of placing 1st 2nd and 3rd, they wound up 2nd, 6th and 8th. (That is, assuming that Hushovd and/or Ballan were able to pull without popping.)



But Hushvod was doing exactly what he was supposed to. Van Summeren stays away Garmin wins. Cancellara tows Hushvod to the finish, a fresh Hushvod takes Cancellara in a sprint finish.

Now you can ask what Ballan was doing, but the answer is that he likely just didn't have it, and thought that if he helps Cancellara he's just going to get himself dropped, so best to put the onus on Cancellara and hope.

None of this is conspiratorial. It's teams and riders riding in a fashion that mximizes their chance of success.

And it is what makes the sport interesting. After you follow it a bit, you begin to see all the permutations, and its no longer just a bunch of guys trying to pedal fast.

265km individual time trial would be pretty boring.

One needs both the talent and the team to win; Cancellara had the talent, van Summeren had the team. Jonathaon Vaughters said it was a Garmin/Cervelo victory but remember when you peruse the reults of a race in future years you'll always see the riders name but not necessarily the team name.
Is this type of team planning during the race one of the things that the radio ban is intended to negate and thus create more spontaneous racing?

But Hushvod was doing exactly what he was supposed to.....
To be clear, and as I said in the other PR thread ;) I'm not badmouthing Hushovd in this situation. It's possible he didn't think he had the legs, or that he believed Cancellara would out-kick him regardless, or that Cancellara would just go anyway and he could latch on. It's also entirely possible that Cancellara could have dropped the hammer earlier, but that held the risk that he'd tow Hushovd and Ballan along with him. All 3 riders made their choices, which contributed to the final results.

I'm simply pointing out that the failure to cooperate resulted in Cancellara, Hushovd and Ballan all placing lower.

I would also say, though, that IIRC those three were 40-50km from the finish line when Cancellara wanted someone else to pull; and Van Summeren didn't get clearance for takeoff until 17km before the finish. So while Hushovd almost certainly held Cancellara back, at that point he wasn't doing it for the sake of his team.



265km individual time trial would be pretty boring.
Shhh, don't tell that to the triathletes :D

Actually it's not that bad with a mass-start TT like they do in tri's, and it's easier to follow. Road race tactics can be very difficult to observe, especially for someone new to the sport.

A few more things to consider....

....We've already seen that with MSR (Gerrans)....

Just to clarify, you mean Goss.

http://ironicsurrealism.blogivists.com/files/2009/10/homer-simpson-doh.gif

How do you know that Hushovd's job wasnt to neutralize Cancellara? Just because two British idiots made Hushovd a favotite doesnt mean he was Cervelo's favorite. A pro team with that much talent may have three or four tactics laid in advance to cope with developing situations as the race proceeds.

How do you know that Hushovd's job wasnt to neutralize Cancellara? Just because two British idiots made Hushovd a favotite doesnt mean he was Cervelo's favorite. A pro team with that much talent may have three or four tactics laid in advance to cope with developing situations as the race proceeds.


"I knew it was going to be difficult for me to win," said Cancellara. "I knew everybody would be watching me, and I knew I would need to attack to win. I knew there really was no other way. I understand the tactics of Ballan and Hushovd, and I respect them."

To be clear, and as I said in the other PR thread ;) I'm not badmouthing Hushovd in this situation. It's possible he didn't think he had the legs, or that he believed Cancellara would out-kick him regardless, or that Cancellara would just go anyway and he could latch on. It's also entirely possible that Cancellara could have dropped the hammer earlier, but that held the risk that he'd tow Hushovd and Ballan along with him. All 3 riders made their choices, which contributed to the final results.

I'm simply pointing out that the failure to cooperate resulted in Cancellara, Hushovd and Ballan all placing lower.

I would also say, though, that IIRC those three were 40-50km from the finish line when Cancellara wanted someone else to pull; and Van Summeren didn't get clearance for takeoff until 17km before the finish. So while Hushovd almost certainly held Cancellara back, at that point he wasn't doing it for the sake of his team.



Shhh, don't tell that to the triathletes :D

Actually it's not that bad with a mass-start TT like they do in tri's, and it's easier to follow. Road race tactics can be very difficult to observe, especially for someone new to the sport.

Actually we are not sure that Husvold was not doing it for the team, or at lesat doing it as part of a team strategy. With radios the team manager may well have known Van Summeren thought he had the legs to drop those in the lead group.

As to following teams tactics for those new I agree 100%. That single riders rarely ride away from a group for any distance has been brought up. The solo ride I like to bring up is Merckx on stage 17 (I think) in the 1969 TDF. He stayed away from a group of 6 chasers for over 60 miles, the last of those flat. I said a group of 6 chasers, it was a group of 7 riders. The 7th was Martin Vandenbosche, a teammate of Merckx and an excelent rider. He gets little mention in historical accounts and I'm sure got little mention when the race occured. But he was key. With him there Merckx could afford the risk, if caught he could work with Vandenbosche to minimize any losses. Without if caught he could have lost the TDF.

Really hard to see things like that, unless someone else points them out.

Some of what happened to Boonen:

“There’s not much to do when it comes to bad luck. In the Arenberg forest I had my first mechanical problem. My chain got stuck between the frame and the crankset and I had to wait almost two minutes for the flagship car. I changed bikes and I was able to come back. Then the incredible happened. I was catching up to the group of the favourites after a long chase when the vibrations from the cobbles shook my water bottle loose and it ended up between the back wheel and the frame. The wheel suddenly was blocked, and I lost control of the bike. At that moment Maarten Wynants was coming up on me. He couldn’t avoid me and I ended up on the ground, hitting my knees. At that point my race was over. In 10 years at the Roubaix I’d never had a flat and before this edition I’d only fallen twice, in 2003 and 2009.

Wasn't there some discussion about using chain watchers on cobbled races?

I believe Boonen was using a chain watcher.

But Hushvod was doing exactly what he was supposed to. Van Summeren stays away Garmin wins. Cancellara tows Hushvod to the finish, a fresh Hushvod takes Cancellara in a sprint finish.

While it was a very entertaining race I didn't see it that way.

Cancellara was chasing hard with about 50k to go. At that stage the lead group still had about 10 riders in it.

Cancellara sits up and says no more, the next thing you know Garmin have either one or two guys on the front who arent Hushvold driving it. So if they were thinking Van Summeren is going to be a chance, why are they driving the bunch?

I didn't think much of Garmin's tactics through the race, they were lucky to have Van Summeren in the right place at the right time, and pulled a rabbit out of the hat. That's about it. Of all the teams Europcar impressed in terms of a collective team strategy, and Skil did ok as well.

I believe Boonen was using a chain watcher.

He was.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/photos/paris-roubaix-van-summerens-winning-cervelo-r3/168191

While it was a very entertaining race I didn't see it that way.

Cancellara was chasing hard with about 50k to go. At that stage the lead group still had about 10 riders in it.

Cancellara sits up and says no more, the next thing you know Garmin have either one or two guys on the front who arent Hushvold driving it. So if they were thinking Van Summeren is going to be a chance, why are they driving the bunch?

I didn't think much of Garmin's tactics through the race, they were lucky to have Van Summeren in the right place at the right time, and pulled a rabbit out of the hat. That's about it. Of all the teams Europcar impressed in terms of a collective team strategy, and Skil did ok as well.

I agree with some of what you're saying. Van Summeren wasn't a sure bet to win at that point, that's for sure. He had been top 10 before and he had a pretty good shot at it if the break did stay away, but I'm not sure anyone expected the break to stay away. I think the main reason he was in the break was to give Hushovd an excuse not to pull if he made it into a Cancellara group and to help Hushovd once the break was caught.

It may not have made for the most exciting race, but Garmin played it right. If Fabian wanted to call their bluff it would have been more effective if Garmin didn't have a strong guy up the road. It's too bad Leopard doesn't have a stronger classics team so they could have had a guy up the road, too.

What would happen if instead of "cooperating" with each other to assure that the
same riders/teams would be at the front of the race at the end, riders just RACED?

If no "deals" were made on the course and men just hauled arse with
the sole intention of not just being in the top 10, but of winning it all?

What would happen if every team just went for self?

They do. It's called time-trialing.

Cancellara has basically been riding the classics like time trials, with little team support, and little in the way of tactics, aside from just being stronger than anyone else in the peloton and hoping to drop everybody with 15-60k left. Of course, everybody knew that was coming considering his performance last year, so since they're NOT time trials, it makes a lot of sense to get behind the guy and just try to stay on his wheel.

Cancellara sits up and says no more, the next thing you know Garmin have either one or two guys on the front who arent Hushvold driving it. So if they were thinking Van Summeren is going to be a chance, why are they driving the bunch?
As John Wilcockson explains it, they weren't driving the bunch but riding tempo to keep the gap reasonable in case Van Summeren faltered. http://velonews.competitor.com/2011/04/news/inside-cycling-with-john-wilcockson-the-day-the-superstars-didn%E2%80%99t-shine_168618
"Having to keep their options open, Garmin had Van Marcke ride tempo at the head of the new chase group, pegging the lead to 1:10 with 25km to go; ..."

As John Wilcockson explains it, they weren't driving the bunch but riding tempo to keep the gap reasonable in case Van Summeren faltered. http://velonews.competitor.com/2011/04/news/inside-cycling-with-john-wilcockson-the-day-the-superstars-didn%E2%80%99t-shine_168618
"Having to keep their options open, Garmin had Van Marcke ride tempo at the head of the new chase group, pegging the lead to 1:10 with 25km to go; ..."

And in hindsight they kept the gap about right. Too much for Cancellara to bridge alone (at least in time).

One other aspect of riding tempo up front is keeps others from having to choose. If they had not rode tempo then others would ahve had to decide to either pick up the work up front or lose all chances. Once someone else has started setting the pace they just might decide to close the gap.

While it was a very entertaining race I didn't see it that way.

Cancellara was chasing hard with about 50k to go. At that stage the lead group still had about 10 riders in it.

Cancellara sits up and says no more, the next thing you know Garmin have either one or two guys on the front who arent Hushvold driving it. So if they were thinking Van Summeren is going to be a chance, why are they driving the bunch?

I didn't think much of Garmin's tactics through the race, they were lucky to have Van Summeren in the right place at the right time, and pulled a rabbit out of the hat. That's about it. Of all the teams Europcar impressed in terms of a collective team strategy, and Skil did ok as well.

So your saying Husvod should have helped Cancellara run dwon a break with 2 Garmin riders in it?

I didn't think much of Garmin's tactics through the race, they were lucky to have Van Summeren in the right place at the right time, and pulled a rabbit out of the hat. That's about it. Of all the teams Europcar impressed in terms of a collective team strategy, and Skil did ok as well.

Thinking that Van Summeren being in the right place at the right time was due to "luck" seems to suggest that you're not qualified to have an opinion on the quality of Garmin's tactics.

So your saying Husvod should have helped Cancellara run dwon a break with 2 Garmin riders in it?

I was only watching on and off. I'd missed that Garmin had 2 riders in the break. That clearly puts Husvold in ht eposition of marking Cancellara. It also would put his teammates in the position of being ready to start an attack as soon as Cancellara would have caught the break. (and if they got away with a group having Husvod and one other Garmin rider it would have been 99% their win).

You have answered the question I never asked, why didn't Cancellara continue and catch the break anyway?

You have answered the question I never asked, why didn't Cancellara continue and catch the break anyway?

I think it was because he couldn't do it alone and still have enough in the tank to hold off anyone charging at the end.