Touring - Front Brake "Chatter" on an LHT?

I was test riding a Surly LHT prebuilt 60cm and under moderately hard front braking the front wheel would start to skip as the brake pads would slip-grab-slip-grab-slip-grab. The salesperson described it as "chatter." It also existed on the 58cm frame but was not as easy to produce (had to brake harder)

Is this fixable or is it inherent to the frame? Have other people had this problem?

My 50cm LHT has the standard Tektro Oryx cantilever brakes. Like a number of LHT owners, I didn't like the original brake pads and replaced them with KoolStop Salmon MTB pads.

The bike has about 5K miles on it and I've never experienced the chatter which you describe. The brakes will squeal on occasion if the temp/humidity is just right, but the noise stops after they're applied a few times.

Adjusting toe-in helps. New pads might help. The KoolStop pads are not a cure. They do brake better, but my LHT will chatter with the KoolStop pads. It just means it's time to adjust the toe-in.

You could also switch to V-brakes (with new levers) and eliminate the problem entirely.

Ok so what I'm getting is that this is not a reason to steer away from the LHT frame. It's a setup/adjustment issue. Right?

Recycle, did you experience chatter with the original pads?
dcrowell, what size are you on?

Look into getting a fork crown brake housing stop and shorten
the distance the bare cable spans.
Seems to be an issue with big frames, the fork, headset bearings ,
headtube, becomes a bow,
to some extent,
the brake cable a bowstring.

You are test riding a new bike , the mold release skin
is still on the brakepad.

Ok so what I'm getting is that this is not a reason to steer away from the LHT frame. It's a setup/adjustment issue. Right?

Yea some set up, some OEM picks use of the parts
that get the price down to where you find it acceptable ..

the pads came with the brake's maker, so it's up to you
to up price the pads a bit ..

Here's an immediate, short-term solution to brake chatter: as you're riding slowly, squirt a little water on your brake pads and apply brake intermittently. Be careful not to fall over/crash while you're doing this.

Eventually you should consider changing to Kool-Stop pads, as they seem to brake better than Tektro's standard pads, but you'll still get some chatter.

Most all combinations of rims and rim brakes will chatter occasionally, even when the pads have been properly toed-in.

I experience brake chatter (and squeal) more frequently in low humidity weather (a couple winter/spring months in my area).

Ok so what I'm getting is that this is not a reason to steer away from the LHT frame. It's a setup/adjustment issue. Right?

Recycle, did you experience chatter with the original pads?
dcrowell, what size are you on?

My LHT is a 56cm with 700c wheels.

Basically, cantis are prone to chatter. There are a number of things you can do to mitigate it. V-Brakes will eliminate it.

A friend of mine was on a fast downhill on his Crosscheck and almost crashed due to severe chatter. He doesn't adjust his own brakes, but the bike shop adjusted it well enough that it didn't do that anymore.

Interesting. Thanks for the input everyone. What about "high-profile" cantis? Will they eliminate, mitigate, exacerbate, or not affect the problem?

Pic stolen from Riv.
http://assets.rivbike.com/images/products/full/0000/2477/15-153a.jpg

Interesting. Thanks for the input everyone. What about "high-profile" cantis? Will they eliminate, mitigate, exacerbate, or not affect the problem?


It could affect it, but cantis still *can* shudder.

Here's a better explanation:
http://velonews.competitor.com/2010/09/cyclocross/technical-qa-with-lennard-zinn-return-to-cross_101807

Ok so what I'm getting is that this is not a reason to steer away from the LHT frame. It's a setup/adjustment issue. Right?

This.

Brad

Look into getting a fork crown brake housing stop and shorten
the distance the bare cable spans.
Seems to be an issue with big frames, the fork, headset bearings ,
headtube, becomes a bow, to some extent, the brake cable a bowstring.

This.

This.

I forgot this point earlier... I bought one from Harris. It will need to be drilled out for some barrel adjusters.

Brad

I forgot this point earlier... I bought one from Harris. It will need to be drilled out for some barrel adjusters.

Brad

I'm guessing you have the Tektro.
The Specialized "Tricross Fork Brake Hanger" comes with the barrel adjuster.
Those are the only two I'm aware exist.

I'm guessing you have the Tektro.
The Specialized "Tricross Fork Brake Hanger" comes with the barrel adjuster.
Those are the only two I'm aware exist.

Yes, it's the Tektro and it was the only one I found at the time. If anything it cleaned up the appearance.

Brad

Interesting. Thanks for the input everyone. What about "high-profile" cantis? Will they eliminate, mitigate, exacerbate, or not affect the problem?

Pic stolen from Riv.
http://assets.rivbike.com/images/products/full/0000/2477/15-153a.jpg

On my 62cm LHT the original Tektro Oryx chattered and were basically ineffective. I put on a set of 'high-profile' canti's. While they were a better performing brake for me, they interfered with my panniers ( on the rear). I went to V brakes, should have done that in the first place.

Look into getting a fork crown brake housing stop and shorten
the distance the bare cable spans.
Seems to be an issue with big frames, the fork, headset bearings ,
headtube, becomes a bow,
to some extent,
the brake cable a bowstring.I have this issue to, did you mean shorten the cable length from the headstem down or the cable arch between the brakes
Any help is greatly appreciated ;-)

you move the front brake cable stop closer to the wheel to shorten the distance between housing and brake to lessen the shudder effect.

There's some flex that occurs in front brake cable runs on large headtube bikes that can increase the tendency for shudder. the tension in the cable wavers from the flex, and the brakes begin to quickly 'brake and release' resulting in chudder.

Move the cable hanger from the headtube spacer stack to the fork crown with a fork mount cable hanger. this drastically shortens the cable length that is a primary cause of brake chudder from bikes with cantis,long headtube and a high cable stop.

A healthy amount of toe-in can also minimize shudder, but it leads to uneven pad wear.

On my 62cm LHT the original Tektro Oryx chattered and were basically ineffective. I put on a set of 'high-profile' canti's. While they were a better performing brake for me, they interfered with my panniers ( on the rear). I went to V brakes, should have done that in the first place.

Did you find that the high-profiles eliminated or reduced the chatter problem? You say it was better preforming, can you be more specific? This is an option I might consider if it really eliminated the chatter problem.

high profile cantis don't do anything to address the issue of brake chudder from long brake cable runs from the cable hanger to the front brakes.

Specialized changed the spec on the tri-cross because of this, went to the low mount, the brake chudder was so bad on earlier tricross bikes with cantis and headtube brake hangers.

The cyclocross forum has an excellent thread on dealing with canti brake shudder: http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php/722673-Cantilver-Brake-FAQ . My LHT is built with V brakes, but I was having shudder problems with my Trek XO-1 cyclocross bike. I changed to a tricross fork mouted hanger, changed to kool stop dual compound pads, and set up the pads better and the bike works amazingly now. As I did these changes together, I'm not sure what was more critical.

I've never experienced this on my 62cm LHT. As others suggest, I'd look at toe-in.

I experienced it BIG TIME on my Soma Doublecross, descending grades of 9% or steeper.
I have the fork-mounted-cable-stop ready to install as soon as I get this cast off my hand.

My LHT is equipped with 26" wheels. I have never had the problem discribed. They did squeal like hell when I first bought it. I adjusted the pads with the "heel in" and that fixed the squealling completely. They're quiet now. Since then I have also replaced the stock pads with some Shimano XTR pads. Come time for my summer trip I'll replace those with some Kool Stops too.

you move the front brake cable stop closer to the wheel to shorten the distance between housing and brake to lessen the shudder effect.

There's some flex that occurs in front brake cable runs on large headtube bikes that can increase the tendency for shudder. the tension in the cable wavers from the flex, and the brakes begin to quickly 'brake and release' resulting in chudder.

Move the cable hanger from the headtube spacer stack to the fork crown with a fork mount cable hanger. this drastically shortens the cable length that is a primary cause of brake chudder from bikes with cantis,long headtube and a high cable stop.

A healthy amount of toe-in can also minimize shudder, but it leads to uneven pad wear.
All good, put an old cable end holder (raised type) through the fork eyelet where the fender is mounted and then slightly towed in the pads...........works a treat ;-)
Thanks for the heads up
Greatly appreciated
Sam

Why buy a new bike that the brakes don't work on? Mine work fine.

It sounds like the silver bullets here are a fork crown housing stop, or V-brakes. Is there a disadvantage to V-brakes that I should be aware of? How about flex, do they flex like long-reach calipers?

I've have had the same problem with my chromoly Jamis Coda Sport.
I've had the bike for 2 or so years and it originally came with Vbrakes, however, the front wheel always produced a high pitched squeaky groan.
After about 18 months the squeaky groan had developed into a shudder problem due to worn bushes in the brake arm mounts, so I ordered a pair of tektro onyx cantilever style brakes, thinking they would hold up better.
After a few months the same thing had happened to the new brakes but this time the onset of the problem came faster.(due to isolation of the cable stop from the vibrating brake arms / fork)

This problem has been very frustrating and quite dangerous at times (especially when wet), after some close calls on the road, I've started to look at new bikes, the LHT came to mind, but now I'm not so sure considering they seem to suffer from the same issue that seems to stem from the flexibility of the chromoly forks.
Its a shame because before the Jamis I rode a Aluminium Shogun for a few years and there was a noticably comfortable difference riding the Chromoly frame, and I quite enjoy riding the Jamis aside from this problem.
I like Cantilever brakes, but it looks like its back to Vbrakes (which I have found are not totally immune to this problem), or get a Trucker Disc.

I will install a new set of Vbrakes and see how it goes for now, but I did cheat on my Jamis with a Trucker disc the other day and it was good, if the Jamis can't stop its excesive high pitched whining, I'm going to break up with her for more sophisticated, and younger bicycle!

On my 62cm LHT the original Tektro Oryx chattered and were basically ineffective. I put on a set of 'high-profile' canti's. While they were a better performing brake for me, they interfered with my panniers ( on the rear). I went to V brakes, should have done that in the first place.

This

Ok so what I'm getting is that this is not a reason to steer away from the LHT frame. It's a setup/adjustment issue. Right?


right, I have a 26" wheeled LHT and had a 700c LHT with four different models of rims and three different models of brakes, two cantilever one linear brake. No squealing or chatter. Also have a Cross-Check front brake that will squeal with light pressure on humid mornings with stock Oryx brakes.

If this noise makes it impossible to evaluate the LHT handling attributes carry a wrench and adjust the pads yourself.

I was test riding a Surly LHT prebuilt 60cm and under moderately hard front braking the front wheel would start to skip as the brake pads would slip-grab-slip-grab-slip-grab. The salesperson described it as "chatter." It also existed on the 58cm frame but was not as easy to produce (had to brake harder)

Is this fixable or is it inherent to the frame? Have other people had this problem?

I get this when the mounting nuts on the calipers are loose...not sure if that's the same issue for you though.

Is there a disadvantage to V-brakes that I should be aware of?

They aren't as aesthetically pleasing as cantilevers, according to many, including myself. You'll have less "fiddly brakes shop-talk" with V-brakes.

IMO: Get the V-brakes. LHT is a tool, function over form.

My Co-Motion Americano 62cm with V-brakes has had front brake shudder since I bought it. A "brake booster" helped some as did Koolstops and lots of toe in but it's still there sometimes. Co-Motion will sell me a disk fork for $395 - that should cure it, just don't know if it's worth it. Might just be characteristic of large frames - and they built the frame with a longer than standard headtube to accommodate my height and reach.

V brake ..There is just a short distance between where the brake pad fitting is on the caliper arm.
and the pivot at the bottom.

long reach where the pivot in in the center on the top, is quite different
it is quite a ways between brake pad and the pivot.

Magura HS33 the hydraulic rim brake ,the V mounts
are no longer a pivot, so any sloppy bushing fit issue is gone.
as are .. the cables [and the drop bar brake lever.. ]

Installing V-brakes is not a problem even with STI shifters. My wife wanted them on her touring bike, so I set them up for her. I am so impressed with their stopping power that I am planning on putting a pair on my LHT.

I used a "travel agent" to accommodate the Shimano STI shifters on her bike. I also have STI brifters on my bike so the travel agent will need to be used. If you have bar-end shifters , the travel agent is not needed.
http://i783.photobucket.com/albums/yy112/Doug64_photos/DSC_0072-2.jpg

Some brake chatter can also be caused by the rim. If the braking surface is not machined, there will be a little chatter unil the micro ridges caused by the forming process are smoothed out. I have not had a problem with my LHT (58 cm) using ample toe-in, Kool Stop pads, on Cane Creek canti's. However, I have had some minor chatter on my cross bike with the same brakes. I just changed the pads on the cross bike last week. We'll see if that helps.

+1 on the fork-mounted cable hanger/stop. I have Origin8 branded ones from Niagara Cycleworks on 2 different bikes. It may be shallow to dwell on appearance, but they are black and matched by bikes' decor better than the silver Tektro ones. It will probably completely solve the chatter problem. For a future bike I'm thinking about, I may go with v-brakes. The OP should be aware that you need V-brake specific brake levers or travel agents to make them work.

After reading some advice on another forum I just toed in my pads the opposite way to what my LBS did. And to my surprise no more chatter. The trick all along was toeing in edge of the pads that point to the rear of the bike. I can't believe the difference.

Canti are just as good as V brakes on a drop bike, you just need to learn how to adjust them. When brakes are noisy I mostly look to adjust the toe in. Cantis were at one time the hot set up, people knew how to use them. Now that there are other options, some people are more comfortable with those, but it is a comfort thing not that the other options are inherently better across the board.

Vs are a solid option, but for me travel agents are a kludge, and the V specific levers are not great either. There are five problems with the levers. 1) obviously they have to be bought and swapped in; 2) there are more of these available, but still choice is limited; 3) The have a different pivot point so Vs are deleveraged to about the level of cantis; 4) when braking from the hoods the pivot point is even worse - if it was moved far enough it would actually be under the fingers and leverage would be zero. So as bad as the new pivot point is it is worse because one really uses the road levers from the hoods. So this is a toofer in that it affects both the feel and comfort, and it affects the power.

Once you get past the fact there aren't any good options activating Vs, there are some other problems, such as they loose more braking power than cantis when rims go out of true, not a biggie, but could be a factor on some harsh tours.

Most of the problems with braking systems come from the geometry of road bars and levers. There is only so much travel and leverage possible. And integrated shifters have reduced the chance we will get boutique solutions by making the cost of altering the system a lot higher. The only magic solution are petersen self energizing brakes. These use the motion of the bike to boost braking power. They basically have a low and high breaking power, rather than a low and middle, which I prefer.

I hear some comments that suggest cantis are preferred because they look better, or are retro. The reason I go back to them is just comfort. I used them before Vs or mechanical discs, both systems I have had on bikes also. I like new and cool brakes, and enjoy comparing various systems, but in the absence of a definite winner, cantis are a reliable friend for me.

"Toe in" is actually the trailing edge of the brake shoe, in relationship to the wheel rotation.