Touring - Isn’t there a better solution than panniers?

After 3 loaded tours (2 short tours with 2 panniers and 1 long tour with 4 panniers), I wonder if traditional panniers are really the best solution.

I carry a lot of stuff (believe me, I know!) and I don’t want this to be a discussion about why or what I could do to carry less. Just accept this part as a given.

I should also mention that I have been using Ortlieb panniers. I don’t necessarily think that they are the best panniers. I don’t have any comparison to render a judgement. The reason why I got them was simply, that they were the cheapest quality panniers available to me (I’m from Germany). Also for me the fact that they’re water-proof is not a disadvantage. I didn’t have problems with mouldy contents up to now, but I was often grateful that I didn’t have to wrap everything in plastic bags individually. Also, as far as I could see (but feel free to tell me different), they were the panniers with the best volume/weight ratio. The rear panniers take 40l and weigh 2070g, the front panniers take 30l and weigh 1680g.

However, I would have liked more space. I also found that it’s difficult not to waste space when packing. You can compress clothes and sleeping gear, but cooking gear and food is a different matter, as well as stuff that’s not be squashable. And I didn’t want to mix everything to save space.

Although the Ortliebs have a good weight/volume ratio, I can’t help but think that it could be a lot better. Every pannier has to be fixed to the bike, which requires some kind of hardware, which adds weight to the pannier. So my feeling is, each pannier should be as big as possible without creating problems like heel strike etc.

Another issue is that it’s not easy to handle 4 individual pieces of luggage. I probably could have put the contents of the panniers into 2 medium sized duffle bags, which would be a lot easier to handle off the bike - plus airlines and bus services often have a “2 piece limit” and charge extra if you have more then that. I had to rope the panniers together to comply with the limit - after all, I already had to pay extra for the bike.

The bottom line is: panniers are acceptable on the bike, but a PITA off the bike. They have a lot of self-weight. They are small. They are difficult to handle.

Isn’t it possible to carry stuff on the bike in a better way?

I have been ogling the Big Dummy for the simple reason that it seems to be possible to use it with “normal” luggage - and load it a lot easier. Wouldn’t it be possible to use a similar system on a normal touring bike? Has anybody ever tried something like this? Or - even better - are there commercial solutions that I simply don’t know about?

I would go for a Big Dummy, but I think it’s a lot more difficult to take on the plane or on the bus. I wonder why there are no touring bikes out there that simply offer a bit more rack space - somewhere in the middle of a normal bike and a long tail bike (the Arvon long tail seems to be almost as long as the BD). 10cm more on the rack would make a lot of difference when loading the bike, but would probably not make a huge difference when taking it on the plain/train/bus.

There are racks that extend back a little further. You could also have one made custom.

I use Deuter panniers. They go on in 2 seconds. At the end of the day you simply lift them off the bike.

Let's look at a couple options you may not have considered. We do credit card touring. A couple panniers in
the back weighing about 20 pounds loaded. That's not bad.

We also do day trip vacations. So we drive around, stay in hotels and B&B, and ride the nicest roads.

We went with a vacation company once (Ciclismo Classico) for a ride across Italy. That was nice.
They took care of the luggage. They also picked the hotels, restaurants and wines.

I used to backpack and do bicycle touring. Now that I am old, I take it a little easier, and it is ever so
nice to have a good bed and hot meal just waiting for us to show up.

Consider a trailer?

I agree, bunch of small bags gets old quickly if you frequently take a train for example. There's also a very good chance you accidentally leave something behind when you have umpteen little parcels to move from bike to train and back. But I still like to carry my gear relatively evenly distributed around the bike, and with low center of gravity. Panniers are a good way to achieve that, especially if you have a lot of stuff. A friend of mine rode some 40 kms with all his gear in a large hiking backpack. Think about it, just one bag, easy to carry off the bike, great ergonomics, fits in trains and buses, nice compartments etc. Sounds like a good idea. He says he's not going to do it again, ever.

Trailer is one option. You could theoretically stuff everything in one big drysack and tie it on a pair of wheels (or, just one wheel). I doubt it would make planes, trains and buses any easier, plus it would be a major PITA trying to find anything in there. And there's the weight question: right now your system weighs a bit under 4kg empty. Flatbed trailers are 6+kgs and upwards, plus the drysack.

As far as space goes, you can add to 4 Ortliebs by getting a handlebar back and/or the Ortlieb drysack that rides on top of rear panniers. This is apparently not a solution for you, if you dislike 4 bags already you'd probably hate having 6 of them. But it's doable.

--J

A traditional touring bike needs to handle well with and without luggage, act as a normal, everyday commuting bike and a weekend fun bike and fit into normal bike-shaped spaces on trains etc.
These days, when people have more than one bike, tourers are becoming heavier-duty and more specialized. I can see a role for longer chainstays and long racks to accommodate more luggage. Simply adding a longer rack shifts too much weight behind the rear axle.

Unless you use a trailer, you need to distribute a heavy load around a bike so multiple bags are unavoidable.
When flying, I wrap them all in a plastic sheet and ductape it into one package. I try to keep all my luggage on the bike and just roll it along for as long as I can inside airports.
One of the great advantages of travelling by ferry from the UK to mainland Europe was the hassle-free handling of all my gear. It just stayed on the bike.

If you are carrying a load that exceeds 4 panniers then I would advise a trailer. They have disadvantages and can be tricky to manhandle over obstacles eg steps.

Luxlumis. I agree with you. I like the idea of a frame between touring and long tail size. If this is not produced by anyone, then a custom frrame is called for.

By this point, I'm pretty sure that just about every possible method for carrying luggage on a bike has been explored. No matter how you slice it, traveling with lots of stuff is going to be a hassle.

You should try using a trailer, it's much more affordable and versatile than a Big Dummy. Keep in mind that in terms of weight, a trailer is fairly close to the weight of panniers.

Another option is to carry less stuff. You may not want to hear it, but the reality is that everything has its trade-offs. The more creature comforts you carry, the more of a hassle it will be to lug it around.

Well, if you're in a DIY mood, you could try the following.

- replace your panniers with mesh netting (preferably woven from stretchy accessory rope; this is the DIY part).
- Permanently attach these to where your four panniers would normally go.
- Put everything into dry-sacs; put dry-sacs into mesh panniers.
- keep everything you would normally lash to the top rack in a large dry-sac with a shoulder strap.
- bring an extra 140l bag of some sort.
- when you want to unload: put all the dry-sacs into your 140l bag, and sling it plus the rear rack bag over your shoulder.

There are a lot of combinations here. You could bring an 95l backpack instead of a 140l bag and squeeze the extra 45l into the dry-sac from your rear rack when you're dismounted. Or, you could bring a rear dry-sac that is normally half empty, so when you dismount it'll take all but say 40l, which could go into a smaller carry-on backpack.

Isn't there?

There isn't.

think of easier ways to carry your stuff off the bike, the panniers are still the best way to distribute a load on a bike.

Use a large, WP duffel on top of your rack, partially filled when riding. Alternately, bring a large, frameless backpack (golite style), a lightweight travellng duffel designed for schlepping loads in, or a large sail bag folded up in your panniers.

Use one of these bags when your travelling with your bike as your one piece of luggage.

I'm still very new to touring, but I chose a trailer for this and many other reasons. I'm a real klutz and I didn't want to have to spend a lot of time trying to balance my weight. I once landed on my face because my bike was (badly) loaded. It's a trade-off, of course, because going uphill is slightly more difficult, but once moving, it's almost like the trailer isn't even there. One other downside is that it's easier to take too much "necessary" stuff!:D

When going to the start of my tour I have had good luck with packing my panniers in a cheap used suitcase from a thrift store ($6-8). I then discard the suitcase at my destination. If you are flying home from a large city you can find a thrift store and buy another.

I have also used a duffel bag that was within the allowable size for checked baggage. I can typically fit everything in one bag, but if it doesn't fit some can go in a carry on sized duffel. I founds some inexpensive ones that were the correct sizes and fold up very small at walmart. http://www.walmart.com/ip/Expandable-Rolling-Duffle-Bag/11069689?sourceid=1500000000000003260370&ci_src=14110944&ci_sku=11069689
http://www.walmart.com/ip/20-Expandable-Duffel-Bag-Black/11069683?sourceid=1500000000000003260370&ci_src=14110944&ci_sku=11069683

The expandable duffel bags could be carried along, but I typically would mail them to or from my tour so as not to have to carry them the whole way.

Not sure how much you carry, but I find that with 4 smallish panniers I have more space than I could use. Maybe it would help is you picked gear that nested better or packed more stuff inside other items.

luxlumis, If I understand your point you've alot of stuff essential to you, you compartmentalize what you carry and use public transportation at least sometimes. The first two suggest a trailer would be helpful, the third suggests that a long tailed bike to be the answer.

Is that close?

Brad

In one breath you say you will take a lot and won't take less. In another breath, you complain about the extra weight of the "hardware" that is used to attach the panniers to the bike. The combined weight of two Ortlieb Sport Packer Plus panniers and two Bike Packer Plus panniers is roughly 8.5 lbs. according to Wayne at the Touring Store. How much of that do you think is attributable to the mounting system? More importantly, how much weight, on a percentage basis, does this hardware add to your total load? For example, I am 210 lbs. Let's say I am riding a Surly LHT that weighs a conservative 30 lbs. I am carrying 55 lbs. of gear in four panniers that weigh 8.5 lbs. Assumning the mounting hardware is 25% of the total pannier weight, that's only a hair over 2 lbs. That's a mere 0.7% of the 273 lbs noted above. If the hardware you are really referring to are the racks, 4 lbs. worth of racks is still only 1.5% of the total load.

As for size, I don't know which Ortliebs you are using, but I recently bought a set of Bike and Sport Packer Pluses. They are cavernous. I cannot imagine anyone thinking this setup is too small and also complaining about a few punds of hardware weight unless they are trying to transport as many feathers as possible.

Don't think a Big Dummy is ging to help you in the weight department.

As noted, get a duffel bag. Put everything in there. And you can always carry one pannier on a flight with you if not everything fits in the bag.

carry a large canvas duffle bag in a pannier pocket or up top, throw all the panniers in the bag. All my bags fit in a cheap duffle bag I bought over 20 years ago that folds up pretty small. Can't solve the weight problem for you.

On my most recent tour I carried two Walmart duffels. As it turned out I only needed one, as it was big enough to hold all of my gear + panniers (except handlebar bag which I carried separately with valuables), yet still met the airline's requirements for checked luggage size. When on the bike they fold up quite small and fit nicely at the bottom of one of the panniers. If you go that route, get the lightest and most basic one you can find. I didn't want any wheels or handles that would make it heavier or more bulky - just a light bag with a shoulder strap. I don't know what material it's made of, maybe polyester. I think they were ten bucks at Walmart.

Thanks for your input.

I don’t think that I’ll go for a trailer just to avoid panniers. The only advantage of the trailer would be that I might be able to get rid of the panniers. But the disadvantages (even more weight than panniers, less enjoyable riding, more difficult to use with planes/trains/busses) outweigh that.

With regards to the added weight of the Big Dummy, I don’t believe there’s a huge difference. My bike weighs 15.6kg without the panniers (it’s a small framed touring bike with light racks). Add the empty panniers and the total weight is around 19.3kg. Which is pretty much what I read people say their Big Dummy weighs. As far as I understood, this includes the Xtracycle panniers and snapdeck etc. which is hard to believe - not sure if I got this right? I still have to put the stuff I’m carrying into something, like a duffel or the likes. But this doesn’t add too much weight. The only real disadvantages the Big Dummy has for somebody carrying as much stuff as I do, would therefore be the price and the fact that it wouldn’t be very easy to take on public transport. Travelling on the bus in New Zealand was a PITA with a normal bike already. They would only take you on board as the very last passenger, after everybody else was accommodated.

What I wanted to point out when I said that each pannier needs hardware is this: the panniers are very small compared to e.g. my hiking backpack (which by the way served as a bag strapped across the rack). One rear pannier only has a capacity of 20l. Even my hiking daypack has more capacity than that. I don’t see why the panniers couldn’t be 5-10l bigger. As I see it, it would even improve the stability of the bike, because it would probably mean that the center of gravity would be lower. Actually another disadvantage of the Ortliebs is how high they sit on a normal rack. I will probably get a Tubus rack which allows for lower mounting, and see if that improves things. Increasing the size of one pannier would of course mean that it weighs a bit more. But it would still weigh less than adding another pannier to get the same volume. Apologies if my explanation is a bit confusing.

late: I was considering a custom rack. But I think if you put the weight too far behind the rear axle, the bike won’t ride well anymore. If I were to get a custom rack, I would probably have to DIY panniers.

Credit Card touring is something I want to try. The downside is that it’s expensive and you’re not very flexible. I should have said that I’m not the typical bicycle tourer - cycling is only a part of touring for me. I often spend more time off the bike than on. The daily average on my last 8 week tour was around 30-40km, on days that I rode. I had plenty of days that I spent in one place. I only cycled ~1.500km.

Juha: yes, I also found that it’s no good to put all your stuff on top of the rack.

berner: I’m thinking about a custom frame. But seeing that it would be a very unusual request, it will probably be expensive and I would have to find a frame builder who has experience with tandems and/or long tails. I don’t think that this is going to happen very soon.

Bacciagalupe: I’m working on my pack list. But I don’t think I’ll ever be able to only travel with 2 panniers. As I said, I’m not your typical tourer. Bicycle touring is just a more enjoyable form of travelling. When travelling for weeks or months, I don’t want to sacrifice everything. Most of my pack weight and volume comes from taking a camping hammock in addition to a small tent, and cooking gear plus food. I don’t want to sacrifice either, although it would probably bring me down to 2 panniers, because this would take out too much of the joy of travelling for me. I think in this case I’d rather give up cycling, or travel by car with a folding bike in the trunk.

seenloitering: This sounds similar to what I had in mind. I was more thinking along the lines of using a pack strap system. But mesh might be another option. I think I also want a closer look at the Xtracycle pack system to get some ideas.

staehpj1: I did exactly what you suggested for travelling on the plane. But that won’t help with boarding busses while on tour. And it adds more weight. If you’re not travelling from or to the US, most airlines have a total weight limit of ~20kg checked baggage. My bike weighs that much packed - without any other piece of equipment. Unfortunately, the times when bikes were treated not as checked baggage but as sports equipment with an extra weight allowance are gone. At least on long haul flights.

indyfabz: I didn’t mean to complain. I realize that the average cycle tourer is fine with panniers. I still think that panniers could be designed better. By the way: I have the Bike Packer and Sport Packer Plus. I did not find them cavernous. My sleeping bag fills half of one Bike Packer pannier - or most of one Sport Packer. And this is already the lightest down sleeping bag that I could buy (I sleep very cold). I think the design of the Ortliebs wastes space - instead of being cut \_/ they could be cut|__/. I assume the reason for them not to do this is that you would have a fixed “right” and “left” pannier. Still, in reality, once you set up the panniers, you will have a fixed right and left one anyway.

Get a USAF Flyer's Kit Bag for less than $20. There are US Air Force bases in Germany so these will be available near them in used excellent condition. I think the Leftwaffe uses them too. They will hold my full 3 piece Bushwacker pannier set and the handlebar bag. You just stuff it all in there. They have huge zippers and weight about .5 Kg. I bought 12 used ones 20 years ago for $10. I'm still using the third one (the rest are in the shed).
For examples, see: http://www.vtarmynavy.com/air-force-crew-bag.htm

A Sailboat. :rolleyes:




A Portage pack in a trailer will, by virtue of the shoulder straps on the pack,
canoe gear,
let you put the trailer on your back if need be..

The empty panniers go in the box with the bike and all the contents fit into our plane/train duffles. the contents of my 4 panniers fir into the large yellow duffle. That "just" leaves the rack pack, handle bar bag and the duffle to handle. I suspect that I don't carry near the load you do.
http://i783.photobucket.com/albums/yy112/Doug64_photos/Bike%20Trips/Gear2009-2.jpg

Two bikes, 2 duffles, 2rack packs, and 2 handlebar bags--Now all we need is a ride!
http://i783.photobucket.com/albums/yy112/Doug64_photos/Bike%20Trips/Amtrak2.jpg

Unfortunately, adding more bags without throwing out something else is not going to work. As I said: the baggage allowance on most long haul flights (excepting those to and from the US) is ~20kg. Bike, bike box and panniers alone are more than that already. The additional "stuff" I take on the plane (camping & cooking equipment, clothes, laptop, hiking gear etc.) is another 15-20kg.

I envy you guys who can happily travel with just 10kg of stuff :)

I wish more panniers were designed like Panpacks (http://www.panpack.com/page2.html).

i met an Argentinian guy touring on a bike, he basically had a big trekking bag sitting straight up on the rear rack, he attached it somehow to the saddle etc
as a result the bike was loaded very high up, which made the bike harder to keep in balance i guess, but it worked nonetheless

I don’t think that I’ll go for a trailer just to avoid panniers. The only advantage of the trailer would be that I might be able to get rid of the panniers. But the disadvantages (even more weight than panniers, less enjoyable riding, more difficult to use with planes/trains/busses) outweigh that.

You've never tried a trailer, obviously.

A good trailer often weighs less than a full set of waterproof pans.

Less enjoyable? I almost stopped touring, years ago, because I was so sick of the way a fully loaded touring bike handled. Towing a trailer is almost like riding an unloaded bike, you just go a little slower.

If you're taking a lot of buses and trains/planes, it seems to me that you should just carry less stuff in general. How much cooking and camping gear do you really need when much of your traveling is on a plane? Still, some trailers break down pretty good and you can put the wheel/s and tow arm into the trailer and then have just one compact piece of luggage.

Just get a trailer.

A trailer will be more versatile, lighter, aerodynamically better, cheaper, easier to transport, and lighter than a Big Dummy. It won't have a significant weight penalty compared to four panniers and a backpack.

Also, you can probably just throw a good-sized backpack with all your stuff onto the trailer and you're done.

I'm also very confused about why you're worrying about a kg here and there, when you're apparently carrying a ton of gear. I suspect that if weight was a genuine concern, you'd start paring down your kit. It's like worrying about a dripping faucet while the sprinklers are going off.

While you should feel free to carry what you want, again it's a trade-off. More stuff = more hassle. If you want to bring the kitchen sink with you, go for it -- but don't blame your luggage system because it's inconvenient. The problem is not that panniers don't work, it's that you apparently do not want to pay the price for carrying all that stuff with you.

I too was unsatisfied with touring using standard frames, racks and panniers, so I am currently in the process of building all of them mostly from scratch. I am a real DIY enthusiast, so you may not want to go my way, because there's a ton of work involved, but there is a middle ground to be found.

First of all, the frame. If you want a longer frame without reaching Big Dummy/Xtracycle total length, I would recommend the Kona Ute. The rack is a lot longer, it's built in the frame, but it's about 20cm longer overall than a standard bicycle, as far as I can tell from the pictures.

Some people suggested a trailer, but you really should try one before. I rode a bicycle with a loaded extrawheel-like trailer and didn't like it at all, it was always pulling to the sides, but the guy who had it really liked it. It may be practical, but it is strongly dependent on personal preferences.

As far as panniers go, you should really look into making your own or having some made for you. Commercial offerings are far too general in order to work with as many bicycles as possible. You could easily have panniers that are aerodynamic, as large as you need and are easy to get on and off the bike, but nobody makes them, so you have to do it. Also, the large rack of the Ute allows for some creative pannier design, and you could put a lot more weight on the rear rack because the longer wheelbase puts your weight closer to the front wheel than on a standard bike.

Bottom line: there are better ways to carry stuff, but the fact that you also want your bike to be car/plane/train friendly calls for some big compromises if you stick to the off-the-shelf panniers. You really have to go the custom or diy route in order to have a set of panniers that work for you, considering your rather conflicting requirements.

A question, if I may. If you're not satisfied with the airlines 50 lbs. for your bike, and 50 lbs. for your panniers and contents, how are you going to ship a trailer?

I was looking into folding bikes a couple of years ago and found a company that also sold a kit to turn a standard Samsonite suitcase into a trailer for the bike. The folding bike fit into the Samsonite so you could check it onto a plane. Once you got to your destination you converted the suitcase into a trailer and hooked it to the bike an could ride away. I don't remember the company but a search would probably find it.

I was looking into folding bikes a couple of years ago and found a company that also sold a kit to turn a standard Samsonite suitcase into a trailer for the bike. The folding bike fit into the Samsonite so you could check it onto a plane. Once you got to your destination you converted the suitcase into a trailer and hooked it to the bike an could ride away. I don't remember the company but a search would probably find it.

What do you do with all your stuff when your suitcase is full of bike and trailer parts? Do you just buy all new clothes and gear, then throw it away after your tour? Or do you bring and discard another set of baggage? I'm afraid I don't get the point of this product.
I would just pack my panniers for touring, pack them all in a lightweight nylon duffle bag for the flight, and then store the bag in one of the panniers on the tour. Seems simple enough.

One rear pannier only has a capacity of 20l. Even my hiking daypack has more capacity than that. I don’t see why the panniers couldn’t be 5-10l bigger.

You haven't checked out Arkel (and others) then. Their largest size rear panniers have a capacity of 40l each. They are compartmented with zippers so it's not one big space which could be a negative for you. They weigh 3.75kg for the pair, somewhat on the heavy side. Couple that with front panniers at 18l each (if you need them) and you have quite a bit of room. Tie them together when transporting and you have two pieces of luggage.

A trailer isn't going to help you on public transit as it's one more thing you have to manage. Honestly, for what you want, you're probably going to have to make your own (and a simple sling across the rack with two compartments hanging off isn't a bad option).

A popular option on holiday riders in Europe, seen in the past, was a single nylon canvas bag
it comprised a 3 zipper closed volumes, 2 side panniers and big one on top of the rack.

Cordura and packcloth Sews fine on a home sewing machine , use a sharp needle.

The bottom line is: panniers are acceptable on the bike, but a PITA off the bike. They have a lot of self-weight. They are small. They are difficult to handle.

Isn’t it possible to carry stuff on the bike in a better way?

.

your problem is carrying stuff off the bike, not on the bike. Panniers work great on the bike so what you need are better strategies for carrying off the bike not a different system for on the bike. How about this?

here you go, 2lb luggage cart

http://www.amazon.com/Design-Go-Luggage-Travel-Trolley/dp/B0048WQIK2/ref=pd_sim_sbs_e_5

I was looking into folding bikes a couple of years ago and found a company that also sold a kit to turn a standard Samsonite suitcase into a trailer for the bike. The folding bike fit into the Samsonite so you could check it onto a plane. Once you got to your destination you converted the suitcase into a trailer and hooked it to the bike an could ride away. I don't remember the company but a search would probably find it.

that is Green Gear/ Bike Friday, of Eugene Oregon.
Often discussed in the Folding bike forum right here.
http://www.bikeforums.net/forumdisplay.php/221-Folding-Bikes

suitcase has its own trolley wheels now, with pull up handle and 2 12" wheels
and a subframe to fit them on the side of the case, to tow the
suitcase as a trailer .. refilling it with the clothes you packed in a soft duffle.

2 pieces.. of cake ..

I purchased a Carry Freedom City, another 12" wheel trailer , though this one
the wheels stay on the frame, they fold flat within it, for transport.
And there is a soft duffle that slings in the frame like a Hammock,
that you put over your shoulder..

Pulling the trailer by its handle, you can run with it like a trotting sulky horse.
folding bike on top to beat feet down the platform, to catch the train..

Just get a trailer.

A trailer will be more versatile, lighter, aerodynamically better, cheaper, easier to transport, and lighter than a Big Dummy. It won't have a significant weight penalty compared to four panniers and a backpack.

Also, you can probably just throw a good-sized backpack with all your stuff onto the trailer and you're done.

I'm also very confused about why you're worrying about a kg here and there, when you're apparently carrying a ton of gear. I suspect that if weight was a genuine concern, you'd start paring down your kit. It's like worrying about a dripping faucet while the sprinklers are going off.

While you should feel free to carry what you want, again it's a trade-off. More stuff = more hassle. If you want to bring the kitchen sink with you, go for it -- but don't blame your luggage system because it's inconvenient. The problem is not that panniers don't work, it's that you apparently do not want to pay the price for carrying all that stuff with you.

You're right - I never tried a trailer. If it's really so easy to pack and will not be heavier than my panniers, I might reconsider.

With regards to the kgs - apparently I didn't make myself clear: I'm OK with the weight I'm carrying at the moment, including panniers. I just don't want to add to it. Any solution that would mean that I end up with more weight than I'm already carrying is out of question, unless it would provide substantial advantages (as the Big Dummy might or might not do - unfortunately I've never had the opportunity to see one, much less ride one).

Of course I am working on my pack-list and on the items I bring as the weight is a PITA when climbing, but this is something I have to do on my own. Equipment is a highly personal choice that reflects the style of travelling and priorities. I could post my packlist, and I'm sure you'd tell me "you don't need A, B, C, D and E". But this would reflect your goals, not mine. Cycling is important to me, but hiking is, too. Since I'm camping for months, it's important not to get fed up with it. Hammocking means that I'm actually looking forward to camping, come rain come shine. I could get down to 2 panniers. But this would mean that I ignore too many of the reasons that made me go travelling in the first place. After having gained some experience, I will think about it and see if I can make cycle touring work for me. As I said: I might get to the conclusion that it is better to keep touring for shorter trips, and do multi-month trips by car with a folding bike in the trunk. This is why I said I didn't want to discuss the packlist. At the moment I'm interested in the question "is there a way to improve carrying my equipment on the bike". It might turn out that the answer is "no".

What I tried to find out by opening this thread was:
- are there maybe other pannier options available that I'm just not aware of? People mentioned Panpacks (I will have a closer look) and Arkel (already knew of those).
- are there alternatives for panniers? People mentioned trailers, long tail bikes and backpacks. I knew of these options beforehand, but I might have a closer look at the trailer option.
- did anybody have similar issues and found a DIY solution? Apparently some people are DIYing their own panniers, which I find interesting. But it seems that nobody has been trying to find a non-pannier option.

My ideas about non-pannier options were basically to create some type of loading platform, similar to what Xtracycle seems to do (again, I never had the opportunity to have a look at the actual thing), but to do it on my short tail touring bike. I would, of course, have to avoid heel strike and moving the weight too far back. My hope would be that
- this solution won't weigh more than what I already have
- and won't add to difficulties with planes/trains/busses
- but will bring down the center of gravity substantially, making the bike handle better
- and allow me to use non-cycle bags (duffel, backpack etc.), thus making transport off the bike easier.
- I'm also looking to move a bit more weight to the lower rear of the bike, instead of having it on the fork or on top of the rear rack.

Does this make sense?

your problem is carrying stuff off the bike, not on the bike. Panniers work great on the bike so what you need are better strategies for carrying off the bike not a different system for on the bike. How about this?

here you go, 2lb luggage cart

http://www.amazon.com/Design-Go-Luggage-Travel-Trolley/dp/B0048WQIK2/ref=pd_sim_sbs_e_5

Well, if everybody would think like you do, there wouldn't be any progress. You are fine with panniers - that's great. I realize that I'm asking for something that might not be possible. And I know that a lot of cyclists don't have a problem with panniers. But that doesn't mean that it's useless to think about alternatives, or to challenge existing solutions.

I too was unsatisfied with touring using standard frames, racks and panniers, so I am currently in the process of building all of them mostly from scratch. I am a real DIY enthusiast, so you may not want to go my way, because there's a ton of work involved, but there is a middle ground to be found.

First of all, the frame. If you want a longer frame without reaching Big Dummy/Xtracycle total length, I would recommend the Kona Ute. The rack is a lot longer, it's built in the frame, but it's about 20cm longer overall than a standard bicycle, as far as I can tell from the pictures.

Some people suggested a trailer, but you really should try one before. I rode a bicycle with a loaded extrawheel-like trailer and didn't like it at all, it was always pulling to the sides, but the guy who had it really liked it. It may be practical, but it is strongly dependent on personal preferences.

As far as panniers go, you should really look into making your own or having some made for you. Commercial offerings are far too general in order to work with as many bicycles as possible. You could easily have panniers that are aerodynamic, as large as you need and are easy to get on and off the bike, but nobody makes them, so you have to do it. Also, the large rack of the Ute allows for some creative pannier design, and you could put a lot more weight on the rear rack because the longer wheelbase puts your weight closer to the front wheel than on a standard bike.

Bottom line: there are better ways to carry stuff, but the fact that you also want your bike to be car/plane/train friendly calls for some big compromises if you stick to the off-the-shelf panniers. You really have to go the custom or diy route in order to have a set of panniers that work for you, considering your rather conflicting requirements.

This sounds interesting. Do you have a post or a website where you have photos and explain what you're doing? What type of material do you use? What were your pain points with existing panniers and what are you trying to improve? How are you going to fix your panniers to the bike? Lots of questions :)

Consider a trailer?

I'm not one of them, but lots of people like trailers for pulling lots of stuff. The advantage I see is that you could use smaller, higher pressure tires with the load on the trailer.

Marc

Comfort for you is uppermost but the attendant volume and weight, not panniers, appear to be the central problem for you when transporting the bike and equipment. From my own equipment evolution and experience over the last forty years comfort can be maintained easily while volume and weight can be minimized significantly. This has remained true on short and long tours of many months duration like the Divide Ride in the US and other long trips in South America, Canada and Mexico.

Since you like to hike and i assume backpack, you are probably familiar with the ultra-lite approach pioneered by Ray Jardine over the last decade or two. I have gradually adopted some of those techniques and others to greatly reduce volume and equipment weight while maintaining a high level of comfort.

I have been touring with two front panniers only for almost 20 years supplemented only by a dry bag stuffer on the top of the rear rack along the front rear axis of the bike. My comfort on tour is quite like mine at home. I prefer it that way. With two panniers and rear stuffer only, there are no problems with using public transportation or hiking.

My panniers from Robert Beckman have an adapter to mount the panniers to his backpack base for hiking and backpacking. For more extensive backpacking during a tour I exchange the dry bacg for a frameless backpack that stands on the rear rack with the pack compression straps holding it to the saddle and the rack.

I have bored other forum readers by repeatedly stating that this arrangement extends the life of my bike and wheels by allowing me to unweight the saddle and have the lighter rear end articulate over potholes and obstacles rather than slamming into them causing spoke and rim breakage. Sermon ended!

I was looking into folding bikes a couple of years ago and found a company that also sold a kit to turn a standard Samsonite suitcase into a trailer for the bike. The folding bike fit into the Samsonite so you could check it onto a plane. Once you got to your destination you converted the suitcase into a trailer and hooked it to the bike an could ride away. I don't remember the company but a search would probably find it.

www.bikefriday.com (http://www.bikefriday.com)

got one and it works brilliantly

What do you do with all your stuff when your suitcase is full of bike and trailer parts? Do you just buy all new clothes and gear, then throw it away after your tour? Or do you bring and discard another set of baggage? I'm afraid I don't get the point of this product.
I would just pack my panniers for touring, pack them all in a lightweight nylon duffle bag for the flight, and then store the bag in one of the panniers on the tour. Seems simple enough.

you don't use panniers, you have something like a large duffel bag which your gear goes into at the airport and becomes one piece of luggage.

on arrival take bike out of suitcase, set up suitcase as a trailer, duffel bag and gear goes in trailer. works well.

Well, if everybody would think like you do, there wouldn't be any progress.

sorry, but you're the one with conflicted criteria where you don't wish to carry less, are fine with the load on the bike but not satisfied with the load off the bike. Seems to me you haven't developed a system for carrying your gear off the bike which is why I suggested the lightweight dolly.

sorry, but you're the one with conflicted criteria where you don't wish to carry less, are fine with the load on the bike but not satisfied with the load off the bike. Seems to me you haven't developed a system for carrying your gear off the bike which is why I suggested the lightweight dolly.

Sorry, English is not my native language. Let me clarify again:

I'm not happy with the weight and volume of my equipment - but this is something I'm working on and something I didn't want to focus on here.

Even if I'm not happy with the weight and volume of my gear, I can live with it - that's what I meant when I said I'm OK with it. I don't know how to better express this.

What I would like to improve is
a) the way the panniers force me to distribute the weight on my bike (I would like to put more weight to the back and much lower than is possible with my Ortliebs)
b) possibly reduce the number of pieces needed to hold my gear
c) the way the pieces handle off the bike.

Is this clearer?

This thread is turning into a discussion of the pannier content rather than the panniers themselves.

Maybe let me change my original question.

Imagine you were working for company that designs panniers and other transport solutions for touring cyclists. Your job is to find a new approach to transporting the contents of 4 panniers and 1 backpack. Whatever product you come up with

- it should not be heavier than the panniers
- it should go on and off the bike as easy (and if possible even easier) than the panniers
- the bike should handle better or at least equally well than with panniers
- off the bike it should consist of as few pieces as possible, but not more than 4
- if possible no additional hardware should be necessary to easily transport the pieces off the bike (whatever you use on the bike should work off the bike)
- it should not add to the difficulties of plane/train/bus travel
- if possible, it should work with a normal touring bike

You can break some of the rules if your solution excels in other areas to make it worth the sacrifice (e.g. it's extremly simple and easy to use, but it's 1kg heavier than the panniers).

Solutions discussed in this thread up to now:

- long tail bike
- custom medium tail bike
- trailer
- larger DIY panniers / different brands of panniers (but still panniers)
- replace panniers with netting to use normal luggage

I hope I didn't forget anything.

This thread is turning into a discussion of the pannier content rather than the panniers themselves.

Maybe let me change my original question.

Imagine you were working for company that designs panniers and other transport solutions for touring cyclists. Your job is to find a new approach to transporting the contents of 4 panniers and 1 backpack. Whatever product you come up with

- it should not be heavier than the panniers
- it should go on and off the bike as easy (and if possible even easier) than the panniers
- the bike should handle better or at least equally well than with panniers
- off the bike it should consist of as few pieces as possible, but not more than 4
- if possible no additional hardware should be necessary to easily transport the pieces off the bike (whatever you use on the bike should work off the bike)
- it should not add to the difficulties of plane/train/bus travel
- if possible, it should work with a normal touring bike


I suppose you could solve all of the issues you have with panniers by replacing them with a large backpack but that only trades a minor problem for a major one. Large heavy backpacks and bikes aren't really all that compatible.

A trailer is much more difficult to deal with than panniers when using other transportation. They don't pack all that well, you have to carry all your gear in a bag anyway and they are just another large piece of luggage that the airlines, trains, busses, etc are going to charge you for dealing with. On airlines, for example, I could see double the fee for bike and trailer. And trailers are harder to maneuver when you do get to the airplane, train or bus.

A long, medium or even regular tail bike doesn't change any of the pannier handling. You still need something to carry your stuff. Distribution around the frame is much better than just one large bag on the back (similar to the backpack problem).

Something like the bikepacking bags from Revelate Design (http://www.revelatedesigns.com/) might solve some of the issues but those bags aren't meant to come off easily. And they don't have the volume of a set of front and rear panniers. They are meant for minimalist off-road touring and camping.

Panniers really are about the best solution. You could modify them but you'd still have panniers.

Sorry, English is not my native language. Let me clarify again:

I'm not happy with the weight and volume of my equipment - but this is something I'm working on and something I didn't want to focus on here.

Even if I'm not happy with the weight and volume of my gear, I can live with it - that's what I meant when I said I'm OK with it. I don't know how to better express this.

What I would like to improve is
a) the way the panniers force me to distribute the weight on my bike (I would like to put more weight to the back and much lower than is possible with my Ortliebs)
b) possibly reduce the number of pieces needed to hold my gear
c) the way the pieces handle off the bike.

Is this clearer?

much better than my French, German or Japanese could ever be!

It's kind of hard to separate out the amount you're carrying from methods of carrying it on or off the bike. More stuff is more bags.
That said what kinds of rear rack do you have? You say you want the rear panniers to mount even lower, why is that? I've got a 26" wheeled LHT with a Tubus Cargo rack for 26" wheels and had lower rails brazed on the Cargo. They sit lower than other Tubus racks but there's a limit how low things can go and how practical the benefit can be compared to simply reducing load. Going to a long tail design replaces the awkwardness of more bags with a long bike for non-riding transportation.

What kind of bike do you have?

If shipping is a concern, I think that would rule out the long tail. However, they have fold out "shelves" (At least the TREK does) and you could lash just about anything you want to a long tail! Not sure if I am being helpful here - but just some thoughts.

A friend of mine just throws all his junk in a folding basket setup that's attached to his rear rack.

This thread is turning into a discussion of the pannier content rather than the panniers themselves.

Maybe let me change my original question.

Imagine you were working for company that designs panniers and other transport solutions for touring cyclists. Your job is to find a new approach to transporting the contents of 4 panniers and 1 backpack. Whatever product you come up with

- it should not be heavier than the panniers
- it should go on and off the bike as easy (and if possible even easier) than the panniers
- the bike should handle better or at least equally well than with panniers
- off the bike it should consist of as few pieces as possible, but not more than 4
- if possible no additional hardware should be necessary to easily transport the pieces off the bike (whatever you use on the bike should work off the bike)
- it should not add to the difficulties of plane/train/bus travel
- if possible, it should work with a normal touring bike

You can break some of the rules if your solution excels in other areas to make it worth the sacrifice (e.g. it's extremly simple and easy to use, but it's 1kg heavier than the panniers).

Solutions discussed in this thread up to now:

- long tail bike
- custom medium tail bike
- trailer
- larger DIY panniers / different brands of panniers (but still panniers)
- replace panniers with netting to use normal luggage

I hope I didn't forget anything.
Design is a series of tradeoffs. If we're keeping bike design constant (ie., we want these panniers to fit on a standard, off the shelf, touring bike), it's going to be hard to improve on panniers as a carrying system.

Option 1 - you can design a rack modification to carry a large backpack or duffel on the top. Tradeoff: weight is carried higher on the bike, have to be careful to securely attach everything so it doesn't shift. Can't distribute weight evenly (you indicate a desire to put more weight on the back, something most tourists prefer to avoid.)
Option 2 - you can design low-rider racks for the rear. No real tradeoff, so long as the drive train is sufficiently protected from any part of the panniers. Doesn't really affect other features. Might add a touch of weight, but mostly just moves weight lower on the bike.
Option 3 - A combine and carry system for the panniers. Mine have snaps that hold pairs of them together, but they are still awkward. Whether airlines will consider one pair to be a single piece of luggage is iffy - I put them into a lightweight cotton bag for flying anyway. Tradeoff: any carrying system with a harness or whatever will add weight.
Option 4 - lighter weight panniers can be made by reducing the stiffness of the inside board, or by using a lighterweight material. Reduced stiffness creates more flex in the pannier, which can result in weight shifting in certain circumstances...probably not a huge problem, so long as your rack is still protecting your wheel from any interference. Lighter weight material will be a tradeoff in waterproofness and durabiliity.

There's a reason panniers are designed the way they are. For most people, they're the ideal mix of tradeoffs. That doesn't mean they're perfect for everyone, but if you're having trouble thinking of a better option, there's no reason to expect the rest of us will have any more luck.

http://www.burley.com/home/bur/page_454/nomad.html


http://www.burley.com/shop/images/Nomad_yellow.jpg


I would use my trailer as luggage.

It's kind of hard to separate out the amount you're carrying from methods of carrying it on or off the bike. More stuff is more bags.
That said what kinds of rear rack do you have? You say you want the rear panniers to mount even lower, why is that? I've got a 26" wheeled LHT with a Tubus Cargo rack for 26" wheels and had lower rails brazed on the Cargo. They sit lower than other Tubus racks but there's a limit how low things can go and how practical the benefit can be compared to simply reducing load. Going to a long tail design replaces the awkwardness of more bags with a long bike for non-riding transportation.

What kind of bike do you have?

I have a Thorn Sherpa; my racks are from Thorn as well. I'm happy with the Thorn low rider, but I'm probably either going to try the Tubus Cargo rack for the reason that you can mount the panniers lower, or try Carradice panniers. I talked to the Thorn engineer, and he said that their rear racks were designed with the Carradice bags in mind. Otherwise the Thorn rack is super robust and no frills.

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6137/6023856390_83e2165e43_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/31827372@N00/6023856390/)
Salsa Fargo (http://www.flickr.com/photos/31827372@N00/6023856390/) by mbeganyi (http://www.flickr.com/people/31827372@N00/), on Flickr