Classic & Vintage - Wow, mint 71 Raleigh International

http://cgi.ebay.com/RALEIGH-INTERNATIONAL-1971-VINTAGE-ROAD-BIKE-CAMPAGNOLO-/150603672322?pt=Road_Bikes&hash=item2310adab02#ht_789wt_1141

That one is a re-list as the previous auction didn't make reserve with a $999 opening bid. Minty and ambitious!

Neal

Cripes. I wish you hadn't shown me that.
(what's with those butt-ugly tires !?)
see...I'm trying to work on myself here.
oh. A grand and a reserve?
I feel better now.

Cripes. I wish you hadn't shown me that.
(what's with those butt-ugly tires !?)
see...I'm trying to work on myself here.
oh. A grand and a reserve?
I feel better now.

If this one does well, I might have to place mine on the block.

That's a lot of scratch but a very nice bike indeed. Those tires are putting a hurt on my eyes though.

It's not complete. He's missing the spoke protector!

Strange toe strap treatment.

A couple of years ago I would have shat my pants over this one. The '74 I bought new was stolen, and I missed it so much.
Now I'm just happy to see a pretty one from time to time.

That is totally cool. He needs to sell the tires to a Bianchi owner.

It's not complete. He's missing the spoke protector!

Yes, and he/she is also missing the complete Campagnolo brakeset from the
complete Campagnolo NR group. So much for that BS!

Yes, and he/she is also missing the complete Campagnolo brakeset from the
complete Campagnolo NR group. So much for that BS!

I can't access ebay to see the pic but if it is the listing I saw a few days ago, it is a very nice bike but way too small for me.

Internationals of this era came from the factory with Weinmann centerpulls. I always thought that was wierd but that's the way it was.

Yes, and he/she is also missing the complete Campagnolo brakeset from the
complete Campagnolo NR group. So much for that BS!

I bet he also doesn't have genuine 1971 air in those funky tires either!

Yeah, the Professionals came with full Campy equipment, but I guess the poor International owners had to suffice with the Weinmanns. Maybe because the International was intended as a sports touring bicycle, the Weinmanns would fit better with fenders.

The International came with the rear hoop cable stop. That just doesn't look right all naked.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_GmYBBzTzcVQ/TbR7vbC8L2I/AAAAAAAAKR4/9AiKcdPv7_0/s800/ChartreuseIntl18.jpg

Neal

I like the Internationals, and I think they're bordering on bargains - which is saying a lot for 70's Raleighs. The Pro was a wannabe Italian bike, and didn't have the cutting-edge panache of the Team Pro. The International was the gentlemanly "throwback" in the lineup. Less aggressive, and I think more character than the P10, P15 Paramounts. Someday I'll own an other one.

I sure like those lugs.. :D

I like the Internationals, and I think they're bordering on bargains - which is saying a lot for 70's Raleighs. The Pro was a wannabe Italian bike, and didn't have the cutting-edge panache of the Team Pro. The International was the gentlemanly "throwback" in the lineup. Less aggressive, and I think more character than the P10, P15 Paramounts. Someday I'll own an other one.

I don't know - I've seen five or six Internationals of varying quality. The bad ones justify the "bargain" prices - unless you see it in person or are lucky enough to find a seller willing to disclose all (not to mention knowledgeable enough to find all the faults) - you can't be sure that you're getting a quality piece of merchandise for your money - hence, both the good, bad, and ugly sell for about the same price across the board.

-Kurt

I don't know - I've seen five or six Internationals of varying quality. The bad ones justify the "bargain" prices - unless you see it in person or are lucky enough to find a seller willing to disclose all (not to mention knowledgeable enough to find all the faults) - you can't be sure that you're getting a quality piece of merchandise for your money - hence, both the good, bad, and ugly sell for about the same price across the board.

-Kurt

Depends on what you mean by "quality." It's not a bike I would personally judge on workmanship - any more than I would a 70's Paramount. And frankly, that wouldn't be an issue with me, assuming it looks good from 10 feet. IMO, the clean ones with original bits are often a good deal. I'm not aware that they're so badly built or assembled that they don't ride or function acceptably.

I'd think a Paramount generally to be cleaner built than a International, but I guess there's exceptions either way... The Pros always looked pretty good.

What I noticed about the photos is the chrome is always either out of focus or too far away to see in detail. My impression is it was recently chrome polished but has lots of pitting which cannot be seen in the photos.

Oh, yeah, it's Paypal only, so it's a no-go for me.

Oh, yeah, it's Paypal only, so it's a no-go for me.

Why's that? I only use PayPal, never had a problem. But this particular item is going to be too rich for me!

We beat the Paypal thing to death in another thread. They want more information from me about my bank accounts than I am willing to divulge. Savvy sellers would do well to offer another form of payment.

I'd think a Paramount generally to be cleaner built than a International, but I guess there's exceptions either way... The Pros always looked pretty good.

Perhaps true - but in none of these cases are you buying the bike because of the high level of workmanship. You're buying it for the overall design, look, vibe, mojo, whatever. Some of the very best Pros are pretty tidy, but even the Team Pros were intended to be cutting-edge racing tools and not examples of exquisite finish work. That being the case, when I'm "shopping" for a bike at this level, I'm personally taking workmanship largely out of the equation, unless it's egregious and/or the bike is potentially unsound.

dream bike! there is a similar one hanging in my local shop that I just kinda nod to whenever I'm in there. a pricey road bike is not in the cards though - when I'm not riding around town on my Sports I want to be deep in the woods with my MTB.

What's up with that front brake??
Brake shoes mounted wrong (open end to the front), shim next to the frame mounted wrong (concave part 90 degrees off? Such a professional sermon and an "untouched" bike with such apparent and simple faults?
Is that why he has that mediocre feedback?
I'm not so certain that this is an irresistable occasion ...

800 + 100 shipping and reserve not met...sheees. Looks like he's going to keep that one.

I'm hardly an authority since I've only had one Paramount (very briefly) and one International, but the Paramount was a lot neater...though not as clean and impressive as I expected after seeing Kurt gush about them. Compared to some of the nicer stuff out there, it was extremely disappointing.

On the other side of the equation, the International came equipped with some nicer parts stock.

800 + 100 shipping and reserve not met...sheees. Looks like he's going to keep that one.

I will have to ride mine again and consider, $800. is pretty good for a bike that has had some parts switched out.

I'm hardly an authority since I've only had one Paramount (very briefly) and one International, but the Paramount was a lot neater...though not as clean and impressive as I expected after seeing Kurt gush about them. Compared to some of the nicer stuff out there, it was extremely disappointing.

Don Mainland's work is quite impressive, but the Chicago frames are a mixed bag. Nevertheless, like a Kessels or any other pro frame of the era, they're not supposed to be perfect - they're a workhorse that ride very well. They're not supposed to be Alex Singers.

What year was yours, KonAaron?

-Kurt

I THINK it was a 1974...it was definitely nicer than the Raleigh, I'll say that.

On the other side of the equation, the International came equipped with some nicer parts stock.

Really? I always thought they were pretty identical, parts wise. Well, Paramounts had those awful Weinmann clincher rims, but other than that.

Really? I always thought they were pretty identical, parts wise. Well, Paramounts had those awful Weinmann clincher rims, but other than that.

Considering that the tubulars were unsuited for the International's target market, they aren't much more useful than the Weinmann clinchers (though the Mavic tubular rims are a better product).

-Kurt

Correct me if I'm wrong, but clinchers really sucked back then ('70-'73 or so). What was the best available, Michelin 50's? I'm not sure that sew-ups were really a bad choice for an Int'l at the time.

Really? I always thought they were pretty identical, parts wise. Well, Paramounts had those awful Weinmann clincher rims, but other than that.

Awful clincher rims AND those Weinmann brake levers. It did have the Cinelli stem-bar combo, as opposed to GB, but I don't consider that a huge advantage.

Given the times, I'd rather have the tubulars.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but clinchers really sucked back then ('70-'73 or so). What was the best available, Michelin 50's? I'm not sure that sew-ups were really a bad choice for an Int'l at the time.

Ah, no. Many good bike shops stocked clincher rims in 700. Everyone I rode with built a pair to ride during the week, saving their sewups for the "real" rides. (We were college students: didn't have cars, rode only our bikes)

Back in those days I was using a Schwinn tire that was not especially light, but was a V shape, quite a pointy tread so the contact area was smaller than normal. Can't remember what they were called, but my circle considered it the best for the time.

I'm not sure the International was considered a touring bike, just less costly than the Pro. People raced them too, like PX10s. They're actually pretty sweet riding bikes, with all the Carlton influence. I've had a number of them over the years.

Back in those days I was using a Schwinn tire that was not especially light, but was a V shape, quite a pointy tread so the contact area was smaller than normal. Can't remember what they were called, but my circle considered it the best for the time.


I remember loving the Schwinn LeTour clincher tire. It was light years ahead of the other clinchers available back then. It was the precursor to the great clinchers that followed. IIRC, it went to 90 psi, maybe 100 psi, as opposed to 60 psi for cheaper tires back then. It was 27 X 1 1/8", as opposed to 1 1/4". The treadd pattern included a raised, smooth center section about 1/4" wide. Adjacent to this was a herringbone of file tread pattern, separated from the center rib by a very narrow groove. It had the tan side wall, black tread colors we all know and love. Although it wasn't a true skin wall it did not have a thick gum side wall and this was one of its key features - lighter, supple side walls,... A few years later these had been eclipsed by Michelin slicks, Specialized foldable clinchers, etc., but these tires were the first of the breed and they were great.

IIRC, it went to 90 psi, maybe 100 psi, as opposed to 60 psi for cheaper tires back then.

Thank the Rim for that rather than the tire.

Dunno. Living in a relatively small town (and no internet like now, etc.), it didn't seem like there was much available back then. I rode sew-ups exclusively on my International and then the RRA until about 1980, when I had a set of 700c clinchers built (and still ride). And yes, being a poor college student, paying for sew-ups hurt. Though the $25 ea. (Clement Criteriums) would seem pretty cheap now, it was a lot of money back then. I still remember hitting some glass and blowing out 2 new tires.

Thank the Rim for that rather than the tire.

Understood, however, these could be retrofit onto existing rims and run up to those pressures. As usual, the pressure was printed right on the tire but it was part of a fancy label, not molded in. I think that was part of the marketing plan. In retrospect, I'd say the tire looked as though it could handle much more than the 90 or 100 psi printed on the tire. The older rims are probably why they wouldn't rate the tire above that.

Dunno. Living in a relatively small town (and no internet like now, etc.), it didn't seem like there was much available back then. I rode sew-ups exclusively on my International and then the RRA until about 1980, when I had a set of 700c clinchers built (and still ride). And yes, being a poor college student, paying for sew-ups hurt. Though the $25 ea. (Clement Criteriums) would seem pretty cheap now, it was a lot of money back then. I still remember hitting some glass and blowing out 2 new tires.

I can relate to this 100% - College, Clement Criteriums, flat tires and flat broke.

I remember that for a week or so one summer I was unable to ride because I had flats and no money for new tires.

unable to ride because I had flats and no money for new tires.

Oh, man! In college we were the kings of fixing sewups. I could fix almost anything, even blown out sidewalls. We kept thick, artist canvas around to use with contact cement to boot them from inside. We used the yellow latex tubes to cut up to use as patches, you could make them as big as you needed, heck even add a couple of layers. As a last resort, we'd even spray some of that tire sealant in: boy, were those fun when they blew! Heck, I'd even collect them discarded from other riders so I could have a go at saving one.

We had no money either, and nothing but time. But I wouldn't touch one today...

Oh, man! In college we were the kings of fixing sewups. I could fix almost anything, even blown out sidewalls. We kept thick, artist canvas around to use with contact cement to boot them from inside. We used the yellow latex tubes to cut up to use as patches, you could make them as big as you needed, heck even add a couple of layers. As a last resort, we'd even spray some of that tire sealant in: boy, were those fun when they blew! Heck, I'd even collect them discarded from other riders so I could have a go at saving one.

We had no money either, and nothing but time. But I wouldn't touch one today...

Agreed about multiple repairs but that set wouldn't hold air and kept leving me stranded miles from home, walking back in cycling shoes with cleats. IIRC, it leaked around the base of the stem but was unrepairable. I had no spare tubes due to lack of funds. Eventually, I got enough money to buy some replacements and could ride, again.

Those were good times, bad times. ;-)

Considering that the tubulars were unsuited for the International's target market, they aren't much more useful than the Weinmann clinchers (though the Mavic tubular rims are a better product).

-Kurt

The shop I worked for did not have many who came back to swap to clincher wheels, a few, and we sold them 700c and Michelin tires (pre elans) We did often upsell the second set of tires to Clement setas, the customers loved the ride, but did not like having to pump up the tires often.

The shop I worked for did not have many who came back to swap to clincher wheels, a few, and we sold them 700c and Michelin tires (pre elans) We did often upsell the second set of tires to Clement setas, the customers loved the ride, but did not like having to pump up the tires often.

Maybe so, but the fellow using his International for cross-country touring would want 630mm clincher rims; if only so that he could be half-assured of finding a cheap replacement 27" tire from a bike shop nestled in the boonies, if the case ever came up.

As for the folks kvetching over good clinchers: Where were the Mavic Modules and Rigida AL 1320s when you needed them?

-Kurt

Sweet. I have a soft spot in my heart for early '70s Internationals, manky lugwork and all. Maybe it's because mine (I think it was a '72) did everything I asked of it.

Didn't make reserve at $1,050 final bid, and now relisted with a $99 starting bid:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150608864754

Neal

Yes, and he/she is also missing the complete Campagnolo brakeset from the
complete Campagnolo NR group. So much for that BS!

The WEINMANN centerpulls are correct to this bike.

Its my size and I'd love to have it, but even 800. is too much for me...