Advocacy & Safety - Follow The Law

Read where two cyclists have died in Anchorage, AK because they didn't follow the law. By not following the law they were unsafe and they paid the price.

Cyclists can't complain about unlawful or unsafe motor vehicle operators when they are unsafe scofflaws.

Ride Safe Friends. Follow the Rules.

link?

link?

Possibly (probably?) this (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42966950/ns/local_news-anchorage_ak/t/two-cyclists-run-stop-sign-hit-car/). Except these cyclists didn't die. They were injured. And were given traffic tickets.

Speedo

Possibly (probably?) this (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42966950/ns/local_news-anchorage_ak/t/two-cyclists-run-stop-sign-hit-car/). Except these cyclists didn't die. They were injured. And were given traffic tickets.

Speedo

Those two were just clueless. They've probably never even been told that they were supposed to follow the same rules as cars, given that they were riding against traffic.

Cyclists can't complain about unlawful or unsafe motor vehicle operators when they are unsafe scofflaws.


Is it OK for "safe scofflaws" to complain?

While you are providing advice to all cyclists based on a vague reference to an isolated incident, perhaps you should provide your personal definition of "scofflaw" and/or "unsafe."

sometimes I wonder if adult novice cyclists internalize the propaganda that "cyclists don't follow the law" and then don't follow the law themselves. But simple self-preservation suggests that you don't run stop signs without at least knowing that you aren't going to hit anything.

sometimes I wonder if adult novice cyclists internalize the propaganda that "cyclists don't follow the law" and then don't follow the law themselves. But simple self-preservation suggests that you don't run stop signs without at least knowing that you aren't going to hit anything.

I've met adults who are 100% convinced of all sorts of bizarre "laws" about cycling. Like that they're required to ride against traffic. Or that they're required to be on the sidewalk. Or that traffic laws don't apply to them.

When it comes to novice adults, it also seems they they can be so fixated on the mechanics of riding that they don't pay attention to what's going around them. Staying upright and balanced takes so much concentration that they don't notice they're sailing through an intersection without stopping.

I'm firmly convinced that a significant amount of the road rage we experience as cyclists is from people that think we're not following the law. Many anecdotes to support this.

I've met adults who are 100% convinced of all sorts of bizarre "laws" about cycling. Like that they're required to ride against traffic. Or that they're required to be on the sidewalk. Or that traffic laws don't apply to them.

When it comes to novice adults, it also seems they they can be so fixated on the mechanics of riding that they don't pay attention to what's going around them. Staying upright and balanced takes so much concentration that they don't notice they're sailing through an intersection without stopping.

Also, part of the problem is that adults often don't like to admit the idea that they might need some instruction in something like riding a bicycle. Culturally, after all, it's something that many children do, so it feels like you're questioning their competence to do something a child can do to tell them that they're not riding properly (especially if they're ignorant of the fact that adult riding often has some significant differences from how children ride). And we don't even make adults get proper training for driving a car, so it seems kind of ridiculous to them. So I think that's part of why there is a resistance to learning how to ride properly among some garbage riders and so on.

Read where two cyclists have died in Anchorage, AK because they didn't follow the law. By not following the law they were unsafe and they paid the price.


So if riding against traffic were legal they would not have been hit, right? Because it was the breaking of the law that caused injury.



Cyclists can't complain about unlawful or unsafe motor vehicle operators when they are unsafe scofflaws.


Scofflaw. That word is so over. Why is scofflaw always applied to cyclists and never applied to motorists? Driving a vehicle that can easily kill people makes following the law much more important and yet drivers break the law so often that we don't even notice, let alone accuse them of being scofflaws.

I'm firmly convinced that a significant amount of the road rage we experience as cyclists is from people that think we're not following the law. Many anecdotes to support this.

I agree...most of the incidents I've had where I had verbal contact with some raging driver they were yelling at me for riding in the road. Perhaps they thought that was illegal? I never really considered that I might be dealing with that level of ignorance, rather than just self-centeredness.

I'm firmly convinced that a significant amount of the road rage we experience as cyclists is from people that think we're not following the law. Many anecdotes to support this.

I'd agree if these ragers are raging against cagers who aren't following the law, but I'm not sure they are. Otherwise, they're using the law as an excuse to rage against cyclists when the true cause is something else.

If you think that 'following the law' is somehow a guarantee of increased safety on a bicycle you are more likely to experience negative consequences.

Laws represent the idea that men are too stupid to act responsibly among each other. For cyclists its a better idea to ride above the law. Being equal - will get you killed.

I'd agree if these ragers are raging against cagers who aren't following the law, but I'm not sure they are. Otherwise, they're using the law as an excuse to rage against cyclists when the true cause is something else.

Are you kidding? I see cagers raging against other cagers CONSTANTLY. It's just less scary than when you're on a bike, because you're less exposed.

If you think that 'following the law' is somehow a guarantee of increased safety on a bicycle you are more likely to experience negative consequences.

Laws represent the idea that men are too stupid to act responsibly among each other. For cyclists its a better idea to ride above the law. Being equal - will get you killed.

Law is also about order. In the context of traffic laws, it's also about everyone operating from the same set of rules...predictability. Being unpredictable or not being able to predict what the other guy is going to do can get you killed too.

Common sense, is the key word here.

I agree...most of the incidents I've had where I had verbal contact with some raging driver they were yelling at me for riding in the road. Perhaps they thought that was illegal? I never really considered that I might be dealing with that level of ignorance, rather than just self-centeredness.

I look at this differently. Even if they thought it was illegal (which is iffy), the real issue they took is that you were in their way enough to slow them down for 1.5 seconds or they had to steer 3 feet around you. Think about how many drivers are too lazy to move their fingers a couple of inches and use the turn signal... these are the type of people who will feel put out if they have to expend any effort due to you being on the road.

Are you kidding? I see cagers raging against other cagers CONSTANTLY. It's just less scary than when you're on a bike, because you're less exposed.

I'm not saying drivers don't rage at other drivers, I'm saying they usually don't do so for the reason that the other driver is breaking the law. They do so because the other driver scared them, disrespected them, endangered them, inconvenienced them... something like that.

I agree...most of the incidents I've had where I had verbal contact with some raging driver they were yelling at me for riding in the road. Perhaps they thought that was illegal? I never really considered that I might be dealing with that level of ignorance, rather than just self-centeredness.


I've had very, very few incidents of people actively raging against me while cycling. I bet less than five or six times in my 44 years. On the other hand, it's guaranteed that I'll have some motorist cut me off, pass too close, or simply not pay attention, on nearly any ride.

Honestly, I'd almost prefer to be raged at. At least it means they noticed me. ;-)

Read where two cyclists have died in Anchorage, AK because they didn't follow the law. By not following the law they were unsafe and they paid the price.

Cyclists can't complain about unlawful or unsafe motor vehicle operators when they are unsafe scofflaws.

Ride Safe Friends. Follow the Rules.

What exactly is your point? Are you suggesting that two cyclists in AK represent ALL cyclists? Therefore cyclists cannot complain?
Or perhaps death is the appropriate level of punishment for not following the law if you are a cyclist?

Help me out here, I am really having trouble.

I look at this differently. Even if they thought it was illegal (which is iffy), the real issue they took is that you were in their way enough to slow them down for 1.5 seconds or they had to steer 3 feet around you. Think about how many drivers are too lazy to move their fingers a couple of inches and use the turn signal... these are the type of people who will feel put out if they have to expend any effort due to you being on the road.

I agree that this is at least part of it. But I'd also bet it's true that many of them don't know it's legal for bicyclists to be taking up a "car lane" under some circumstances.

Cyclists can't complain about unlawful or unsafe motor vehicle operators when they are unsafe scofflaws.Why can't they? Certainly, the unsafe motor vehicle operators will complain about the unsafe cyclists.

One thing you seem to be doing is equating unsafe and unlawful, when the connection between the two things is considerable, but far from iron-clad.

I'm firmly convinced that a significant amount of the road rage we experience as cyclists is from people that think we're not following the law. Many anecdotes to support this.I concur, though to be complete we should list some of these laws that are broken --

-- bikes don't belong on the road at all
-- bikes belong on the sidewalk
-- bikes don't belong on the sidewalk
-- bikes can only ride in the bike lane
-- if there's no bike lane or sidewalk and bikes must ride on the road, they need to be in the gutter.
-- bikes must yield to everybody
-- bikes and cars on the same road? Violating the laws of physics!
-- "Go Lance!" (if you're not Lance, it's illegal to do anything that Lance might do, such as wear spandex, ride hard or ... ride a bike.)

And then there are the real laws broken -- running red lights (true, cyclists do this more often than motorists), running stop signs (cyclists do this about as often as motorists), speeding (it's occasionally claimed and occasionally true, though only a fool would claim cyclists do it more than motorists), etc.

I've had very, very few incidents of people actively raging against me while cycling. I bet less than five or six times in my 44 years. On the other hand, it's guaranteed that I'll have some motorist cut me off, pass too close, or simply not pay attention, on nearly any ride.

Honestly, I'd almost prefer to be raged at. At least it means they noticed me. ;-)

It depends where you ride. I find it happens more often in high-traffic-volume situations (probably because the traffic makes the drivers more frustrated, just in general, before they even encounter you on your bike). It happens much less often, in my experience, on quieter back roads or rural roads.

Unambiguous road rage incidents I've experienced (as opposed to incidents where it could have just been total incompetence/impatience on the part of the driver):

1. Climbing a very steep hill one day on a road without a shoulder, an idiot driving a lawn care company truck with a trailer comes up behind me, then guns it around me and yells "get a motorcycle if you want to ride on the road, or get the f*** off". He then pulled into a nearby home's driveway, and glared at me like he was ready to fight me if I stopped to argue with him.

2. I've had fast food bags and drinks thrown at me a couple of times by passing drivers or passengers, which I would also interpret as unambiguous road rage.

3. Worst incident of all: I was about to cross a very busy and wide 8 lane (not counting turn lanes) road from a side street with a light. The side street green cycles are very short, and so I have to book it across in order to barely make it before the opposing green lights up. One day I approached the light on the side street right as it was turning to yellow, and knew that I wouldn't have anywhere near enough time to make it through. So I stopped to wait for the next cycle, which evidently really pissed off the driver behind me (she wanted to gun it through the yellow/red light, and I prevented her from doing so because I have to take the lane there (no bike lanes, right-turn-only lane to my right, left-turn-only lane to my left). She actually opened her door and started screaming and cursing at me, and I ignored her for a few seconds. Then she started revving her engine, and I finally turned around and gave her the one-finger-salute and told her to STFU (probably bad judgment on my part, but she was totally losing it and really pissing me off). She actually got out of her car and told me she wanted to fight me (mind you, this is a short, fat, middle-aged woman who is trying to pick a fight with a 6'1" male in his late twenties). I just started shaking my head and she finally got back into her car as the light cycle changed.

Incident #3 was the most unbelievable and surreal experience I think I've ever had while riding.

2. I've had fast food bags and drinks thrown at me a couple of times by passing drivers or passengers, which I would also interpret as unambiguous road rage. This one I don't understand. I understand yelling. . but trowing trash. . if an astute cop saw that he could choose from littering (up to $500 fine) or assault or both. I don't know. Meh. . .

The most surreal experience I had was a woman plead with me to put my bike in the car and she'll drive me home because it was dark and I was "hard to see".

Well, it WAS raining, so. . . but still.

Enough is enough ? At the end of the day, any motorists really needs to weigh whether it's worth it to say that a cyclist or even pedestrian was not law abiding after they crippled or killed someone. Just so much easier to just avoid that debate about who was more law abiding.

It depends where you ride. I find it happens more often in high-traffic-volume situations (probably because the traffic makes the drivers more frustrated, just in general, before they even encounter you on your bike). It happens much less often, in my experience, on quieter back roads or rural roads.

Unambiguous road rage incidents I've experienced (as opposed to incidents where it could have just been total incompetence/impatience on the part of the driver):

1. Climbing a very steep hill one day on a road without a shoulder, an idiot driving a lawn care company truck with a trailer comes up behind me, then guns it around me and yells "get a motorcycle if you want to ride on the road, or get the f*** off". He then pulled into a nearby home's driveway, and glared at me like he was ready to fight me if I stopped to argue with him.

2. I've had fast food bags and drinks thrown at me a couple of times by passing drivers or passengers, which I would also interpret as unambiguous road rage.

3. Worst incident of all: I was about to cross a very busy and wide 8 lane (not counting turn lanes) road from a side street with a light. The side street green cycles are very short, and so I have to book it across in order to barely make it before the opposing green lights up. One day I approached the light on the side street right as it was turning to yellow, and knew that I wouldn't have anywhere near enough time to make it through. So I stopped to wait for the next cycle, which evidently really pissed off the driver behind me (she wanted to gun it through the yellow/red light, and I prevented her from doing so because I have to take the lane there (no bike lanes, right-turn-only lane to my right, left-turn-only lane to my left). She actually opened her door and started screaming and cursing at me, and I ignored her for a few seconds. Then she started revving her engine, and I finally turned around and gave her the one-finger-salute and told her to STFU (probably bad judgment on my part, but she was totally losing it and really pissing me off). She actually got out of her car and told me she wanted to fight me (mind you, this is a short, fat, middle-aged woman who is trying to pick a fight with a 6'1" male in his late twenties). I just started shaking my head and she finally got back into her car as the light cycle changed.

Incident #3 was the most unbelievable and surreal experience I think I've ever had while riding.
That caused me to roll down memory lane. One of my experiences similar to your #3 occurred in the '70s. I was on my way to take a physics exam at a local college. The roadway had four lanes in my direction approaching a major intersection (left turn, straight or left turn, straight, right turn). It was stop and go morning commute traffic and I decided to not split lanes, which often pisses off the motorists. Since I needed to turn left, I took the left or straight option lane. As I stop behind the car in front of me to wait for the signal to change, the truck behind me gives me an air-horn blast. I looked back and saw the driver gesturing madly. Of course I ignored him. The next thing I know he's out of his cab and approaching me with a raised crowbar. As I sized him up (5 foot 6 inches, very overweight versus me at 6 foot 2 inches and preparing for my black belt testing) he realized he was in his last minute of life. Rather than swing the crowbar he sheepishly got back into his truck, which left me both relieved and unfulfilled. Rather than sit in front of him while he nursed his damaged ego, I moved back and asked him what the problem was. He actually apologized and said he was just having a really bad day. This was 7:30 A.M. I sure wouldn't want to see him come afternoon.

I'm firmly convinced that a significant amount of the road rage we experience as cyclists is from people that think we're not following the law. Many anecdotes to support this.

Good point, yep al one has to do is just scan most of the threads on the first page here in A&S to see that.

I'm firmly convinced that a significant amount of the road rage we experience as cyclists is from people that think we're not following the law. Many anecdotes to support this.

'think is the operative word here, most motorists don't have a clue about traffic law as it relates to cyclists

100% of road users break traffic laws at some point (cyclists, motorists, whatever). Find someone who hasn't. People aren't perfect and neither are the laws. Of course, some people have more sense than others.

The title of this thread should be, "Be careful out there"

100% of road users break traffic laws at some point (cyclists, motorists, whatever). Find someone who hasn't. People aren't perfect and neither are the laws. Of course, some people have more sense than others.

The title of this thread should be, "Be careful out there"

This is absolutely true, but I would bet that it's also true that a small percentage of people are responsible for a rather large percentage of collisions. I've seen some people who CONSTANTLY drive really recklessly, and it's a wonder that they avoid as many problems as they do.

Cyclists can't complain about unlawful or unsafe motor vehicle operators when they are unsafe scofflaws.The number of cyclists I see breaking the law is vanishingly small compared to the number of motorists I see breaking the law. And in many cases the motorists directly threaten my safety, on the bike, on foot, and in my car. The number of cyclists that that have threatened my safety by breaking the law in my 40+ years of riding a bike? Exactly zero. I imagine that most motor vehicle crashes involve law-breaking on the part of at least one motorist. This is a huge problem. Cyclist breaking the law? Not really a problem. Sure, I would like cyclists to be a lot smarter about breaking the law. Still don't see it as a significant problem


'think is the operative word here, most motorists don't have a clue about traffic law as it relates to cyclistsI wasn't clear. These incidents are caused by motorists that think we are breaking the law when we aren't. The incident that comes to mind was a guy that drove by 4 of us while screaming and then stopped in the middle of the road to lecture us. He thought we had to ride on the gravel, potholed shoulder. The road was empty except for us. I'm sure a LEO with a little creativity could have cited him for a number of violations. I'm sure that fact totally escaped his notice.

This one I don't understand. I understand yelling. . but trowing trash. . if an astute cop saw that he could choose from littering (up to $500 fine) or assault or both. I don't know. Meh. . .

The most surreal experience I had was a woman plead with me to put my bike in the car and she'll drive me home because it was dark and I was "hard to see".

Well, it WAS raining, so. . . but still.

I've had the woman concerned for my safety because I was "hard to see" happen as well. Although she wasn't considerate enough to offer me a ride. And this was in-spite of the fact that I had a big ole reflective vest as well as my taillights in blink mode.

A few years back I did have a "soccer mom" politely ask if I could move over to the left a little more so that she could make a right turn.

3. Worst incident of all: I was about to cross a very busy and wide 8 lane (not counting turn lanes) road from a side street with a light. The side street green cycles are very short, and so I have to book it across in order to barely make it before the opposing green lights up. One day I approached the light on the side street right as it was turning to yellow, and knew that I wouldn't have anywhere near enough time to make it through. So I stopped to wait for the next cycle, which evidently really pissed off the driver behind me (she wanted to gun it through the yellow/red light, and I prevented her from doing so because I have to take the lane there (no bike lanes, right-turn-only lane to my right, left-turn-only lane to my left). She actually opened her door and started screaming and cursing at me, and I ignored her for a few seconds. Then she started revving her engine, and I finally turned around and gave her the one-finger-salute and told her to STFU (probably bad judgment on my part, but she was totally losing it and really pissing me off). She actually got out of her car and told me she wanted to fight me (mind you, this is a short, fat, middle-aged woman who is trying to pick a fight with a 6'1" male in his late twenties). I just started shaking my head and she finally got back into her car as the light cycle changed.

Incident #3 was the most unbelievable and surreal experience I think I've ever had while riding.

I'm firmly convinced that a significant amount of the road rage we experience as cyclists is from people that know we're following the law and are inconvenienced by it. Many anecdotes to support this.

Read where two cyclists have died in Anchorage, AK because they didn't follow the law. By not following the law they were unsafe and they paid the price.

Cyclists can't complain about unlawful or unsafe motor vehicle operators when they are unsafe scofflaws.

Ride Safe Friends. Follow the Rules.

I didn't read in the article that speedo linked where the cyclists were complaining about unsafe motor vehicle operation. Where you referring to another article?

The number of cyclists that that have threatened my safety by breaking the law in my 40+ years of riding a bike? Exactly zero.

;)I'm sure you've had cyclists coming down your lane the wrong way atleast a couple times.

I'm firmly convinced that a significant amount of the road rage we experience as cyclists is from people that think we're not following the law. Many anecdotes to support this.

Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
-- Blaise Pascal

:)

;)I'm sure you've had cyclists coming down your lane the wrong way atleast a couple times.That happened to me for the first time I can remember yesterday. I was tooling along and. . . Uh, dude, you're going the wrong way man. . and. . . oh, you're getting on the sidewalk. Ok, well. . . have a better one.

That happened to me for the first time I can remember yesterday. I was tooling along and. . . Uh, dude, you're going the wrong way man. . and. . . oh, you're getting on the sidewalk. Ok, well. . . have a better one.

My favorites are the Ninja Salmon. I see quite a few of those on my night rides. It's especially fun when there's a car coming up behind me, and I'm on a road with no shoulder. I always opt for a potential dump on to the sidewalk instead of a move into the lane. I figure if the other cyclist is that dumb, HE can deal with the two tons of blinding steel coming right at him.

I'm firmly convinced that a significant amount of the road rage we experience as cyclists is from people that know we're following the law and are inconvenienced by it. Many anecdotes to support this.

I'll second this. The perception of being inconvenience by a bike is the source of the enraged drivers that I've encountered. A couple times I've caught up and talked to the driver at an intersection "Where you honking at me??". Often they are embarrassed and perhaps have cooled down a bit after a moment's frustration and after seeing the human face of the cyclist they were so pissed at. The scary part is that in that moment of rage, roaring by you way too quickly with no clearance, they could have killed or hurt someone.

Wow! Has this wandered all over the place. All I said was that two cyclists died because, according to the police reports, they violated the law and got clobbered for it. Further, that a cyclist's chances, just like a motor vehicle driver's chances, of surviving and flourishing are enhanced by following the law. After all the law does provide a common set of rules and by so doing makes things safer.

A person can't take responsibility for another, nor read other people's minds. But, one can do their own best.