Classic & Vintage - Campagnolo used pot metal?

I picked this up from a current eBay auction of a broken second generation Rally:

To quote an online review, this apparently is a known defect for this otherwise great part, modified quotation follows: The Rally 3450 derailleur seems to have been introduced in late 1974, about the same time that the prototype Super Record was made. The upper spring-loaded Shimano-style upper body is made from pot-metal with a thin chrome plating. The early Rally's also had a thinner "neck" below the upper spring...the derailleur broke here due to the porous pot-metal, and the "neck" was made thicker in roughly mid-1975.

I've been trying to buy one of these for months, but now I'm not sure I want one.

At some point, Jon will add my photos to the VeloBase on the differences between the first versions of the Rally.

The very first iteration did have a "skinny neck". I thought they only broke in crashes, but would be curious to hear if they ever really did break in use. Still, the neck was beefed up in the second iteration – still the first version – of the derailleur. I have one of each, photos below, but if you still hunting I would suggest looking for the second iteration.

First iteration:
http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o191/LeicaLad/IMG_3093.jpg

Second (of First version):
http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o191/LeicaLad/IMG_3088.jpg

Back to back:
http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o191/LeicaLad/IMG_3091.jpg

AND, the beauty, Version Three:
http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o191/LeicaLad/IMG_3097.jpg

Cheers!

I dislike "pot metal" (cast zinc); its heavy, corrodes easily, and is quite soft. Be careful using very strong degreasers around un-plated pot metal as it can cause corrosion.

Oh.....nice. There were two Rallies up for auction on ebay just a week ago. Glad I didn't bid. That's some expensive pot metal someone else has, now.

Excellent. On the authority of some Ebay seller, Campy Rally derailleurs are constructed of pot metal?

If it's in an Ebay listing, it MUST be true, eh?

Good to know prices will quickly drop.

I don't actually need another one, but with the market about to crash, it may be a time to stock up.

Thanks!

Excellent pics Leicalad. You take those with a Summarit-S ? :)

If it's in an Ebay listing, it MUST be true, eh?

Good to know prices will quickly drop.

I was going to say GB's post it a stroke of brilliance, intended to depress the market just long enough that he can buy one at a reduced cost! :)

eBay listing and now this forum, that's two sources on the Internet... It's biblical now.

And you can have my one Rally when I die.

Excellent. On the authority of some Ebay seller, Campy Rally derailleurs are constructed of pot metal?

If it's in an Ebay listing, it MUST be true, eh?

Good to know prices will quickly drop.

I don't actually need another one, but with the market about to crash, it may be a time to stock up.

Thanks!

Did you notice the question mark in my thread title? I am seeking information, not sarcasm.

Pot Metal? I thought all Cmpagnolo components were hand milled from solid billit aluminum handed down byt the gods.

Grand Bois if I ever get my Hetchins built I may have an older style missing the pivot bolt we could discuss.

in refernece to 'pot metal' I am no Smitty nor trained in the arts of metalurgy but I would think the person you are quating my be making a general statement. he could also, possibly incorrectly, interchaning the term potmetal for cast, or casting.

I never gave much tought to wether these part were milled/machined from stock or canst and then milled. either way the only older Campi part I ever say broken were either simply worn out damaged by and accident or some other mishap ie hitting spoked.

well that be other than the known defective cranks and a few odd spindles, but I neve saw one of these spindles just heard the roumors.

The broken one on eBay has that missing pivot bolt.

I know they have a reputation for lackluster shifting, but nothing else really fits with the NR/SR parts and the triple on my PX10. The Suntour V-GT luxe on it now shifts well, but it's out of place and it bothers me every time I look at it.

Honestly, the NR style works better and has greater range...

Grand Bois,

First, absolutely no insult meant. A bit of tongue in cheek, at worst. You've been really helpful in direct responses to me in the past, and I remain very appreciative of that.

My comment was really to the "dog pile" effect that happens when suddenly a question becomes a conjecture becomes unequivocal fact. Obviously, not your fault.

As for shifting, I'm running my Rally on my 63 Hetchins with a Stronglight 93 (52/38) and a Shimano HG freewheel (12-28). It shifts as well as anything I've ever used. Keep in mind that I've never used anything newer than 1985. :lol:

I do have several other long cage derailleurs I could, maybe even "should" use. BUT, nothing looks as sweet as the Rally.

Whenever Norris L gets around to completing the refinish of my Hilton Wrigley that is still in his hands in Yorkshire, England, my 3rd gen Rally is going on it. Just 'cause it HAS to.

I think the weakness is over-stated, but I would keep an eye for the 2nd iteration of the first Rally, just in case.

RE: PHOTOS. My Leicas are all rangefinders, which are fabulous for certain applications. Macro really isn't one of them. I use a Canon G9, which has taken over 16,000 images in its lovingly abused life, for these sort of shots. Remarkable little box. The photos are nothing special. Get in close, try to have decent lighting, but these are mostly just on the floor in the living room. :D

Cheers.

Everything back then had lackluster shifting, that's what made shifting a skill.
The thing with the Rallys is you can take the long cage and put it on a NR/SR and get a RD that will handle some chain wrap, get you lower gears on the rear and create an almost bullet proof touring derailleur. That with a good triple and halfstep gearing was hard to beat.

But using the Rally cage on a NR/SR gives you a 2nd generation Rally. I've never heard anyone say that these (either the 2nd Gen OR the retro-fit NR/SR versions) shifted as well as either the 1st or 3rd versions of the real Rally. It always seemed a kludge, to me.

I'm open to hear from those who've done this, tho.

I have used both the slant design and the NR style design and the NR style works better and handles a larger range of gears.

Wow. Interesting. Can you explain or conjecture why? It wouldn't seem like it, from the design POV.

Happy to learn more. Thanks for your response.

The slant limits the size of the large cog, making the long cage almost unnecessary. I couldn't get one to run a 28 in the rear and a triple up front. I'm building another bike, and I'm going with a 34 in the rear. I think the NR style will run it.

Well, atleast I keep reading.....

I did a google search on identifying pot metals. There are differences in the metal characteristics that would help matters. Maybe if one of you guys have a busted Rally you could run some simple metal tests on?

One thing that comes to mind, after some quick reading, if you were to try and polish the pot metal, if it is pot metal, it will not shine up like cast aluminum since it's a different metal and reacts to the chemical in the polish differently.

Oh, and gram for gram, there will be a significant weight difference between one made with pot and the other with aluminum.

dbaki. Thanks. My plan is to put a triple-ized Campy and a wide range freewheel on my Hilton Wrigley. I'll find out if the 3rd Gen Rally works or not. I think a duopar would be my second choice.

Is anyone planning to bid on that broken one? (If not, I might, just to have one to test the metal on.)

Thook, I certainly won't sacrifice a good one. It's true that the metal of the 1st iteration looks different, but I'm not sure of exact metallurgy. I know more about bronze than this stuff.

Looks like some kind of die-cast zinc alloy pot metal to me.

The 3rd might work better, haven't had one. I think the NR style shifts as well as a NR (though some people think that's not very well) but I've been riding them for forty years, so it all seems normal to me.

I never thought about it, but that piece does look like pot metal...

dbaki. Thanks. My plan is to put a triple-ized Campy and a wide range freewheel on my Hilton Wrigley. I'll find out if the 3rd Gen Rally works or not. I think a duopar would be my second choice.

Is anyone planning to bid on that broken one? (If not, I might, just to have one to test the metal on.)

Thook, I certainly won't sacrifice a good one. It's true that the metal of the 1st iteration looks different, but I'm not sure of exact metallurgy. I know more about bronze than this stuff.

Where is the busted Rally on ebay? I mean, is it still up for auction as of right now?

IF you did get it, seems scratch/chip testing is a good way to tell. But, if you already have a 1st gen and a 2nd gen on hand, you could try polishing both with a little Mother's? The polish will turn dark on the aluminum, but nothing will happen on pot metal.....save maybe a little dirt/grease if there's any on there. Maybe clean them both, first? I don't know.........I'm just curious myself about this subject.

Did you notice the question mark in my thread title? I am seeking information, not sarcasm.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA :roflmao2:

I actually have a NR with a Rally cage. Last time I tried it on the Peugeot it was noisy on the big cog and I gave up on it. I made a chainline adjustment at the same time, though. Maybe I'll give it another try this weekend.

LeicaLad

Maybe I was being overly sensitive. I'm at work and not having a good day.

I used to love my rangefinder Nikons - until they got stolen. You're right, parallax error makes rangefinders unsuitable for closeups.

Alright, I just found the auction. Man........I wish I could get a close up shot of the broken area. That's one of the ways to tell before you even buy it. But, I think a clue is the chrome plating he points out. Aluminum isn't usually chrome plated on derailleurs. That I know of, anyway. I've never seen it.????

Cast zinc.....hardly. It looks like cast aluminum with high porosity.

Alright, I just found the auction. Man........I wish I could get a close up shot of the broken area. That's one of the ways to tell before you even buy it. But, I think a clue is the chrome plating he points out. Aluminum isn't usually chrome plated on derailleurs. That I know of, anyway. I've never seen it.????

Nor I and I've mucked with a bunch...anodized or clear anodized yes...actually plated no.

GB, Have you tried an HG freewheel? You should be able to find one in a 6 speed and that will probably help you with the shifting performance I think your looking for. I love my Regina freewheels but when paired with my SR the shifting on an HG freewheel can't be beat. And after it gets some chain lube on it its harder to tell at least what it is.

When I worked at the bike shop in the 80's I saw a few NR with the Rally cages come in on touring rigs. You won't find many people sing there praises because of the lack of internet back then and, lets face it, when combined with straight tooth freewheel the shifting really does leave a lot to be desired.

I am planning a build right now with this.

The Suntours back then shifted better but not stellar, Also we loved the VGT-Luxe from a maintenance point of view with not having to break the chain or remove a greasy pulley but we did tend to see more of them get the cages bent in a bad way. Which is probably why you don't see all derailleurs like that. And GB does have the point, the suntour just never did look right on a campy/french bike, even though we installed an awful lot of them as replacements back then. I think the going price was somewhere between 8 to 20 for a Suntour RD vs 100+ for Campy or waiting to order a metal french RD, if we could find them and pay double or triple...

Reading...
Rally with Short Cage
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php/569564-quot-What-If...-quot-the-Campagnolo-Nuovo-Rally-and-Super-Rally


NR/SR with Long Cage
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php/552163-Conversion-to-Triple-Crank

Grand Bois's original setup
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php/475823-Nuovo-Record-Rear-Deraileur-Capacity
Then his finding of Suntour...
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php/599295-Things-I-learned-today.

Someone asked me about my bike in the picture I posted. I'm running the TA 42 inner triplizer ring that fits the Campagnolo 144 crank and allows you to add an inner TA ring with a triple spindle. Last one I got was from Peter White. Really a lifesaver (kneesaver?) for us old farts.

The freewheel on the Peugeot is a 14X28 Uniglide five speed. It's a big improvement over the Reginas I used to use. I'll be watching for a Hyperglide 6 speed. I'd like to go to a 14X30 anyway. The only difference is the ramps to aid downshifting AFAIK.

Someone asked me about my bike in the picture I posted. I'm running the TA 42 inner triplizer ring that fits the Campagnolo 144 crank and allows you to add an inner TA ring with a triple spindle. Last one I got was from Peter White. Really a lifesaver (kneesaver?) for us old farts.

HIJACK ALERT!! did you post this in a diferent thread a few weeks ago? someone post a setup like this and a link to website where they had lots of old goodies including these triplizers.

On further reading......

Pot metal was/is used a lot when manufacturers want to make a test product/prototype without spending a lot of money. It's cheap and easy to mold without using any special equipment. Manufacturers also would use a plate finish to help disguise the pot metal since it would otherwise remain lack luster and oxidize easily leaving a pitted surface and easily break down......thereby making it brittle and easily broken from use. Now, if the 1st generation of the Rally was made of pot metal........well, that could stand to reason. But, the definitive factor is then using the polish on a non-plated surface. Pot metal will not shine.

Okay....that's my 2 cents.

Well at least we found the original source for "pot metal" probably.
http://www.campyonly.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=90

It isn't pot metal but is also isn't the best example of cast aluminum.

Ah, because.......according to what "Pete" has to say........the pot metal variety didn't have the huge Campy logo cast into it, right? But, there seems to be a slight discrepancy because the model shown on ebay (and in the pic supplied earlier in the thread) still has the thinner neck yet also the Campy tag casting.

I'm not sure if that rough looking material in the posted Rally pics is "Pot metal" (usually a term used Diecast zinc alloys or Zamak) It could be just sand cast aluminum alloy which I think is stronger as sand cast aluminum is used on high stress items like engine blocks.

Chombi

I actually have a NR with a Rally cage.. it was noisy on the big cog and I gave up on it.

Over the years I've found the NR bodies are easy to get out of alignment. Sometimes I put a big cresent wrench on them and tweek to get the jockey wheels and the freewheel running in the same line. If not, its noisy.

HIJACK ALERT!! did you post this in a diferent thread a few weeks ago? someone post a setup like this and a link to website where they had lots of old goodies including these triplizers.

WTF? Hijack why? I don't make OR sell the parts.

Just providing information because someone asked and thought someone else might want to know too. Jeez, I thought this was a discussion forum? But yeah, I have posted those pics before.

Ah, because.......according to what "Pete" has to say........the pot metal variety didn't have the huge Campy logo cast into it, right? But, there seems to be a slight discrepancy because the model shown on ebay (and in the pic supplied earlier in the thread) still has the thinner neck yet also the Campy tag casting.

"Pete" said the prototype did not have the Campagnolo lettering. I doubt that he meant to say that all of the thin-necked units made through mid-1975 did not have the lettering or that they were not made of pot metal.

I'd still like to have a 1st generation Rally just because I think they look cool -pot metal or not. I just don't want to pay $100 for one. I've also been looking at the Comp Triples. I think I could make one work by spacing the cage for the wider chain. I understand that they shift well.

I'm building another bike, and I'm going with a 34 in the rear. I think the NR style will run it.

Holy chit! Really? I thought I've read in the past 28T is the max (I thought they were some of your archived posts, in fact). This would be good news to me.


WTF? Hijack why? I don't make OR sell the parts.Just providing information because someone asked and thought someone else might want to know too. Jeez, I thought this was a discussion forum? But yeah, I have posted those pics before.

I think she means she's hijacking, because she's interested.

I think I'm not the only one that's a little tense today. A nice ride will fix that.

Holy chit! Really? I thought I've read in the past 28T is the max (I thought they were some of your archived posts, in fact). This would be good news to me.



I think she means she's hijacking, because she's interested.

I've run 28s and 30s with a short cage NR. If you look at the pic I posted, looks like a 34 will work easily with a NR style RALLY long cage. Oh, I got my last triplizer 144 here; scroll down the page a bit:

http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/chainrings.asp

WTF? Hijack why? I don't make OR sell the parts.

Just providing information because someone asked and thought someone else might want to know too. Jeez, I thought this was a discussion forum? But yeah, I have posted those pics before.


I think BG is trying to tell you someone hijacked your pics and they are used as reference on a retail website.

I had some sites jacking my public photos on Flickr for their own use a few months ago.

I don't think so.

Let's just assume we all mean well.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/8379107@N03/sets/72157622574585267/

This is a link to Bob Freeman's triple-izing of Campy arms. He can do others that are equally flat.

I'm not sure what comes with Peter's triple-izing ring, but Bob's process includes the drilling, bolts and a TA ring. As noted, the downside is that it's permanent. Seems like it's useful here, as we're talking wide-ranging derailleurs.

It's true that the Rally's claim a hefty price, but me thinks the prices are below what they sold for new – adjusted for inflation. But that only means they were bl**dy expensive back in the day, too.

Still, as functional eye-candy, they are really hard to beat.

:D

"Pete" said the prototype did not have the Campagnolo lettering. I doubt that he meant to say that all of the thin-necked units made through mid-1975 did not have the lettering or that they were not made of pot metal.

.


Okay, I see what you're saying. So, everything taken into account, the ebay is an alloy unit, then. Well, that's cool to know. At some point I'd like a Rally/NR set up. Maybe someone will trade me for an Arabesque touring set down the road........if there's any Rallies left. ;)

Campy arms.

They should be in a museum!



if there's any Rallies left. ;)

They never sold when they were new, that's why NOS ones are on ebay!

Okay, I see what you're saying. So, everything taken into account, the ebay is an alloy unit, then. Well, that's cool to know. At some point I'd like a Rally/NR set up. Maybe someone will trade me for an Arabesque touring set down the road........if there's any Rallies left. ;)

I haven't reached that conclusion based on what I've read here and I don't know how you could have. I still don't know if they are pot metal or aluminum. I think it would be good to know for sure. That's why I brought it up.

The slant limits the size of the large cog, making the long cage almost unnecessary. I couldn't get one to run a 28 in the rear and a triple up front. I'm building another bike, and I'm going with a 34 in the rear. I think the NR style will run it.

I have a 1st generation Rally working fine on my tandem with a 14-32 freewheel and 50-45-28 triple crank:

http://www.os2.dhs.org/~john/rally-simplex.jpg