Books, Movies, Music & Entertainment - Anyone play Go?

Does anyone besides me play Go?

Haven't played in years but I like go a lot. Prefer to call it 围棋 ("weiqi") though.

My 6 year old son and I play. We also play Pente which he likes more.
No score kept, just slapping stones.

My 10 year old is obsessed with go. I'm about 2 lessons ahead of him, but he has a lot more free time than me...

My 10 year old is obsessed with go. I'm about 2 lessons ahead of him, but he has a lot more free time than me...

Nice, what's he used for study material so far? If you've got a short list I can make suggestions.


My 6 year old son and I play. We also play Pente which he likes more.
No score kept, just slapping stones.

Pente... similar to Gomoku? I can see why someone would like that more... it is simplified and more instantly-gratifying. Go is a game that relies strongly on non-strategic principles: greed, impatience, frustration, thoughtlessness, and arrogance will destroy your game. As my strength in Go increases, the number of captures I make goes down. The threat of capture is often more useful than capture, called a "forcing" move; it does not have the thrill or satisfaction of removing a dead group from the board and seeing the new, empty area.

This is fine at times; though if you're going to play games, I recommend against abandoning Go for something like Pente or Gomoku. Usually I go for Super Smash Bros. or Punch-Out or some other such thing for a break from Go... same concept, I just want to play and win, I don't want to stretch things out so deep.

Go is a wonderful thing ... it's a tool to examine yourself, to reflect on the world, to learn patience and humility and to study your own mistakes. It is also a game, and if it becomes a grueling and irritating chore it will hold none of its value either as a platform for self-improvement or as a game for self-amusement.

Keep playing both. Perhaps some study of Go, if you haven't already; there is a certain satisfaction from learning and improving, and the study of Go makes Go more fun, even though it's work.

Nice, what's he used for study material so far? If you've got a short list I can make suggestions.


So far, his greatest source material has been "Hikaru No Go" - the manga/anime series from a few years back about a young boy who's mentored by the ghost of an ancient Go Master. He also has a couple go apps on his iTouch that include lessons and problems that he's working through.

We're going to the Seattle Go Center for the first time tomorrow night for a beginner's night. I'm hoping they'll be other little go geeks there for him to meet.

So far, his greatest source material has been "Hikaru No Go" - the manga/anime series from a few years back about a young boy who's mentored by the ghost of an ancient Go Master. He also has a couple go apps on his iTouch that include lessons and problems that he's working through.

We're going to the Seattle Go Center for the first time tomorrow night for a beginner's night. I'm hoping they'll be other little go geeks there for him to meet.

Oh, you are definitely going to enjoy the Go center. There will be teachers, there will be knowledge shared. You'll also lose a lot of games; I'd wager most of them are stronger than you. Learn from it. Losing and winning are both victories.

One thing I can recommend is ... spend a fair amount of money on Go books. $200-$300/year should be plenty, if you're studying like hard; you have to be some kind of serious insane nut to need more than that (especially since re-reading is actually useful), and if you're not burning yourself out you probably won't need all that. At lower levels, you can burn through books faster; if you're currently 17k or thereabouts on the KGS, you can probably shoot through 6 books in 4 months and hit 10k. Around 4k or so, you're not going to be choking them down so fast, because it takes longer to reflect and play and apply it.

Particular recommendations:

http://kiseido.com/go_books.htm

K31 "The Second Book of Go" is your best primer if you've not studied out of a book.

K36 "Opening Theory Made Easy" is the best book on the opening. K10 "In the Beginning" is a worthwhile read as well, but I would read it second; not because it's harder, but because K36 is actually just better. You don't have to read these together; and when it comes to re-reading, after you've read both and gone up a few ranks, pick K36 to read through a second time over K10.

The entire Elementary Go Series is fantastic. I found K11 "38 Basic Joseki" not great, though; I would skip Joseki until you've got a hold on some tactics. K12 "Tesuji" and K13 "Life and Death" are essential; you will probably benefit from K13 earliest, and you may want to read that before K36. K14 "Attack and Defense" is a refinement for after you have a good opening: it is stuff to make you strong in the middle game. Likewise K15 "The Endgame" isn't much use until you've got a good endgame to work from.

I would recommend the order K31, K13, K36, K12, K14, K11, K10, K15. That's $148 of books, which should be taken over 4-8 months. Play on KGS and against each other to study. That should firmly plant you anywhere between 10k and 6k, depending on natural ability.

The ENTIRE Get Strong at Go series is well respected; however, you'll probably notice early that other people have much luck with Joseki and you know none. Don't memorize Joseki; it's a waste of time. I have a few memorized, but I revalidate them as I use them. The one or two that I don't ... well, when some nut tries a cut that doesn't work, I'll have to learn to punish it. I think I have enough skill for that. The Get Strong at Joseki books cover Joseki, following out variations, and even giving you problems in the form of "This is incorrect Joseki. How do you punish?"

If you wind up spending over $200 on books and you still want more, Slate and Shell has some good ones. I recommend Fujisawa's Tesuji Dictionary, which you will come back to repeatedly as you learn enough to grasp the tesuji; and A Way of Play for the 21st Century by Go Seigen. These are somewhat higher level books: you will probably become weaker by reading them, lose a lot of games, clumsily try to apply what you learned and constantly fail, and then a dozen or so games later finally get it through your head and start beating stronger opponents. You'll also probably need to re-study from them every rank or two until you're comfortable, as you'll find that certain things which seemed semi-vague now make a whole lot more sense.

That will happen a lot, too. Whenever you study, one of two things will happen. At fairly low levels, the new influx of knowledge is immediately useful: you'll start steamrolling your opponents until you rank up a little higher, gaining maybe 1-2 ranks out of nowhere. At higher levels, you'll become worse due to having no clue how to actually apply the new knowledge, and then work it out as you play (and lose). At much higher levels, you'll lose the overplays; the "becoming worse" thing is less severe, sometimes almost non-existent. Even 5d say "I wanted to try something..." once in a while.

Also note that at lower levels, you gain a few ranks but you're not applying the information well. Come back and re-read those books in a few months; new doors will open for you, and lessons will be learned that you could not recognize the first time through.

Wow, Bluefoxicy, that's a really helpful list! We went to the Go Center tonight - beginners night - and had a great time. My 10 year old couldn't stay up to meet the head teacher (8pm is still his bedtime despite his protests), but he met some other players and another young player just starting out as well.

I have the first few of your recommended books on order and we'll see how we do over the summer.

Thanks again!

Nods, I wish we had a Go center here. You can always play on the KGS though; that'll help you get rank and also the people there are quite helpful to beginners. I just grabbed Get Strong at Joseki v1 and Attack and Defense myself; my strengths lie in the opening, and in the peripheral skills associated with Go (the development of which is why I play).

As I said, most of the time you don't see great immediate results. At low levels you will usually see a huge improvement from reading something; but you miss about 90% of it still. Mid range, you'll start getting WORSE when you learn something new, then after a dozen games start to get better again. So be ready for some very strange results in your perceived skill level. You will have winning streaks. You will have losing streaks. They will come out of nowhere. It will seem like nonsense unless you actually try to head for Dan level greatness.

One I didn't mention was K02 Basic Concepts of Go. This is a deceptive little manual that dials back from handicap. It seems to teach 8-9 stone strategies, then 6 stone strategies, then 4 stone strategies. What you have to understand, though, is the sanrensei and nirensei openings: 6 stone handicap looks like you got sanrensei on BOTH sides, 4 stone looks like Nirensei on both sides, and 8 stone or 9 stone ... is an extension. With 8 and 9 stone, you get to ignore the free side; with 6 stone, the same principles apply, but also some new ones; with 4 stone, you're starting with an even weaker base, where again the same principles apply, but also new considerations.

You may want to slip that in ... whenever you feel comfortable. Likely after reading through a book on the opening.

Definitely more of a priority to hit up the KGS and Go center for games against more people, though. No use reading if you don't do any playing.