Bicycle Mechanics - Ultegra 6700 Drive Train Lifespan

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_1KIkyGrYV5k/TdhQrfGSKfI/AAAAAAAABYA/KiXvq1UoaF0/s800/Chain%20Length%205-2011%20003.jpg

It wasn't easy holding the ruler in one hand and my camera in the other, but the measurement you can see in the photo is pretty much spot on. I tried it without the camera, and it looked the same.

This chain has about 2000 miles on it. Is it too late to replace it? A mechanic friend told me that if you let the chain wear too long, it becomes pointless to replace it, as the cassette and chainwheels will be too worn to work well with a new chain.

Is there a rule of thumb regarding how frequently Ultegra 6700 chains need to be replaced? I don't ride in the rain... just primo southern California weather. I lube the chain about every three to four rides.

Thanks in advance for any helpful replies.

I think it's worth replacing just the chain and seeing how things go. Pics of rear sprockets? This may help.

Also, how often to you clean your chain? The amount of grit on the inner plates...gah....

Yeah, the key isn't the lube you put on it, it's the cleaning you do before the lube. If you lube a dirty chain it can actually make things worse. Also, the type of lube you use can make a difference. Some lubes attract dirt like crazy, others keep the drivetrain pretty clean.

If you look at the cassette, do the teeth still look pyramid shaped, or a they more curved (concave) on one side like a shark tooth? That's the real key. The more pyramid like e teeth, the less damage has been done to them.

Thanks for the prompt replies.

I'm using Pedro's Ice Wax and White Lightning Clean Ride. Sometimes one, sometimes the other. I used to clean the chain on another bike on a monthly basis with one of those Park Tools chain cleaners, with Simple Green as the solvent. But then I read this was bad, so I stopped cleaning my chains. I'm open to a preventative maintenance regimen-- in general I try to take good care of things-- but I just don't know what the optimal chain-life-prolonging routine would be like. There is conflicting advice on that here at BF and elsewhere.

Again, thanks in advance...

Some pics of the cassette are below.
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_1KIkyGrYV5k/TdhzbuqDllI/AAAAAAAABYY/8wuYwYgrInQ/s800/Chain%20Length%205-2011%20007.jpg

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_1KIkyGrYV5k/TdhzcfnqviI/AAAAAAAABYc/VCYns0yB0zA/s800/Chain%20Length%205-2011%20005.jpg

Your cluster doesn't look too bad. As mentioned, I'd go for a new chain.

Also, I too would be interested in the proper way to care for a drive train.

My 6700 chain has about 3000 miles on it and I measure it with one of the park tool chain measuring tool and according to that theres almost no wear. I clean my chain about 5-700 mile with one of those chain cleaning tools and paint thinner as a solvent. It comes really clean that way and then I usually blow it dry with compressed air. I also remove my cassette and clean it every so often. Honestly I'm not as anal as that sounds. I also ride in dry southern california conditions.

Every 500-700 miles doesn't seem very frequent. By your own reckoning, in 3000 miles you may have only cleaned it 4-5 times.

I've read there are many variables WRT chain life. I'm about 200 lbs, and I ride mostly on flat ground. But I'm a little skeptical that 4-5 cleanings with whatever would extend the life of my chain. I could be wrong, though, and if that works I'd be willing to go back to it.

BTW I measured my chain with one of the Park wear gauges and it was at 100% (worn out). But somewhere here on BF I read that the Park tool overestimates chain wear. I realize you gotta take a little and leave a little when it comes to stuff you read on BF, but anyway...

Ultegra chains aren`t magically different from any other and the wear patterns are the same as any other chain and cassette.

Keeping the chain exterior will have a major impact on extending cassette life, and keeping the chain interior clean and lubed will extend both cassette and chain life.

Wear happens on a cassette based on usage so if you`re in high gear all the time the wear will be accellerated because it`ll happen accross a small number of teeth. When that small cog is finished - so is your cassette.

So one strategy would be to move to a larger chainring in front which will let you select larger cogs from the rear most of the time and will extend the cassette life accordingly.

Another recommendation is to buy two chains and alternate their usage every few weeks. That will also greatly extend the useful life of the rear cassette.

The issue with putting a new chain on a worn cassette is that the wear patterns don`t match and the chain will skip under load. Since the load on the chain isn`t optimal, a worn cassette will also accelerate wear in a new chain. The two chain / rotate usage strategy addresses those issues very effectively.

Keep the chains cleaned and lubed, set up your gearing so you`re not in top gear all the time and move to alternating chains and you should expect a minimum of 10,000km out of a cassette.

I used to clean the chain on another bike on a monthly basis with one of those Park Tools chain cleaners, with Simple Green as the solvent. But then I read this was bad, so I stopped cleaning my chains.

Simple Green is what's bad, like any water-based method of chain cleaning.

Looks like a sweet ride, BTW

Simple Green is what's bad, like any water-based method of chain cleaning.

Looks like a sweet ride, BTW

Thanks for the kind words. So thinner or alcohol would be preferable to Simple Green?

I'd go for mineral spirits. Also, the more times you change your solvent during a clean, the cleaner you can get it.

BTW, I love Rip-Off Comix ; )

I used some Simple Green before I read your post, sorry to say.

Water under the bridge now, no pun intended.

Next time, I'll use something else. How many of you folks use one of those SRAM master links on your chains?

The problem with Simple Green is it lets water hang around inside the chain, which obviously doesn't bode well for getting your lube in there. Maybe chuck it in the oven before lubing?

SRAM master links are a good thing, but they can be a pain to remove sometimes; they require a very exact technique. Also, I had an old one come apart the last time I crashed... spent ten minutes looking for the bits.

Looks like your chain is worn 1/16 so putting a new chain on should not cause drive issues unless you spent the last 2000 miles riding in just a few gears and have some extra wear to those cogs.

Mineral spirits are excellent for cleaning chains, if you can remove it and put it in a container like a large pop bottle and agitate it a little most of the accumulated crud will be removed and the mineral spirits can be reused... when things get grungy you can filter out the particulates with a coffee filter.

Avoid compressed air as this will drive grit into the chain... just wipe the chain after cleaning and let it dry... the mineral spirits will evaporate.

I remove my chains every 650 to 750 miles and clean them in an ultra sonic cleaner with Simple Green and water. I rinse them in water and either dry them in the sun or in the oven. I lube them with a mix of 4pts. mineral spirits to 1pt. chainsaw bar oil.
One chain has 13,644 and the other has 14,788 miles on it.
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/chain-care.html

When you remove your chain for cleaning, are you breaking it with a tool, or are you using a quick break/masterlink of some kind?

Is it necessary to use a Shimano masterlink, or is it recommendable to use a Wipperman (or other) masterlink?

Why not get a new chain? If it skips worse than the old one, take it off and save it.

An update... I installed a new chain (CN-6700) about 180 miles ago and all is well. I put a Whipperman master link (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0028WT392/) on the new chain so I can remove it for maintenance. Thanks to all the responders who offered advice.

I also just got the Whippermann Connex link and like the way it works on my new Shimano 6701. For helping with keeping your chain clean, try Dupont Chain Saver from Lowe's. $5 for 4 oz. My previous 6600 chain lasted 7,670 miles and I never took the chain off to clean. I did kind of clean it when I lubed with Dupont Multi-Use Teflon lube (aerosol can) again from Lowe's.

Simple Green is what's bad, like any water-based method of chain cleaning.

Looks like a sweet ride, BTW
Simple Green is fine as long as you rinse it off. Some idiot left his chain soaking in it for quite a while and it began to rust. End of chain.

I know, I know... bad form to resurrect a dead thread, but since I was the OP and I have an update, I figured what the hey.

This thread motivated me to care for my chain: to lube it faithfully (using ATF & White Lightning, and later Park Tool Teflon Chain Lube and Pedro's Ice Wax when the White Lightning ran out), wipe it clean regularly, so on and so forth.

I did all of this in the hope that my $40 replacement chain might live beyond 2000 miles.

But I just measured it, and after 2000 miles the wear is exactly as shown in the first picture: 1/16". So all of the TLC was for nothing.

I'm going to replace it with a CN-6701, but the next time I buy a chain, I'm going Wippermann (http://www.amazon.com/Wipperman-Connex-Chain-10-Speed-Steel/dp/B0028WQZMK).

I have 4200 miles on my dura ace chain with almost zero wear and 4100 on my other bike's 105 with zero wear. I use to worry I should change the chain but frankly I clean it and lube it, do not ride in the rain, and normally spin. I keep hearing of those going thru chains in 1500-2000 miles and wonder? Maybe I just cannot generate any power riding but I pretty steady and quick in the long haul for a old guy.

I don't think anyone would accuse me of generating a lot of power.

As I posted previously, I'm open to a reasonable regimen of chain maintenance, because what I'm doing seems not to be working so great. Along those lines, on the advice of my LBS I will also try a new (to me) lube (http://www.competitivecyclist.com/review-lubricants/dumonde-tech-bicycle-chain-lube_59.html).

When you remove your chain for cleaning, are you breaking it with a tool, or are you using a quick break/masterlink of some kind?

Is it necessary to use a Shimano masterlink, or is it recommendable to use a Wipperman (or other) masterlink?

You can use either the Wipperman or the KMC version.

The SRAM version should not be used with Shimano 6701, 7901 chains.

I saw quite a bit of information here. (http://sheldonbrown.com/chains.html)

But I just measured it, and after 2000 miles the wear is exactly as shown in the first picture: 1/16". So all of the TLC was for nothing.

Just a shot in the dark, but did you measure the chain when it was new? To rule out measurement error, technical or instrument error, verify the original link length etc ...

I don't think anyone would accuse me of generating a lot of power.

As I posted previously, I'm open to a reasonable regimen of chain maintenance, because what I'm doing seems not to be working so great. Along those lines, on the advice of my LBS I will also try a new (to me) lube (http://www.competitivecyclist.com/review-lubricants/dumonde-tech-bicycle-chain-lube_59.html).

I remove my chains every 650 to 750 miles and clean them in an ultra sonic cleaner with Simple Green and water. I lube them with a mix of 4pts. mineral spirits to 1pt. chainsaw bar oil.
One chain has 13,644 and the other has 14,788 miles on it.
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/chain-care.html
A ruler is the only accurate to measure chain wear.

I remove my chains every 650 to 750 miles and clean them in an ultra sonic cleaner with Simple Green and water. I lube them with a mix of 4pts. mineral spirits to 1pt. chainsaw bar oil.
One chain has 13,644 and the other has 14,788 miles on it.
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/chain-care.html
A ruler is the only accurate to measure chain wear.

Great thought on bar oil, I'd the vague idea to do same, did get to your 4:1 ratio by trial?. In high school I read an article about motorcycle chain wear that suggested if you really wanted to understand it, take your chain off, lay out full length, pull it tight, measure, then push the links together one at a time, then measure again. Was I ever surprised. I did the math...50 thousandths per pin adds up :twitchy:

Just a shot in the dark, but did you measure the chain when it was new? To rule out measurement error, technical or instrument error, verify the original link length etc ...

I did not, at least that I can recall. I have a hard time remembering what I did yesterday, however. But it is an interesting and good idea.


I remove my chains every 650 to 750 miles and clean them in an ultra sonic cleaner with Simple Green and water. [...]

This is a little more detail than you posted previously. Maybe I'll score one of those later and give that a try. I'm over my budget this month for cycling-related expenditure, so the purchase will have to wait.

At this point I have a new CN-6701 which I am poised to install. I'm going to try this Dumonde lube (http://www.competitivecyclist.com/review-lubricants/dumonde-tech-bicycle-chain-lube_59.html) and see what happens.

I'll come back and update this thread the next time I replace a chain, and you-all can see whether the Dumonde stuff worked for me or not.

Thanks again for the advice, etc. In the mean time, I thought this could be shared again (http://cozybeehive.blogspot.com/2010/04/bicycle-chain-wear-test-from-wippermann.html).

Update: just for the record, here's the new chain, measured and photographed to the best of my ability:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-FCO4IKuR2ag/T8Lufx1BpEI/AAAAAAAABeg/YjYq9fpyiw4/s800/New%2520CN-6701%25205-27-2012%2520003.jpg

You can use either the Wipperman or the KMC version.

The SRAM version should not be used with Shimano 6701, 7901 chains.

Why not ???

Time to update this thread. Below is the same CN-6701 after 1400 miles of use. It was degreased when brand new, and I put on the Dumonde lube per the instructions. I lubed the chain regularly using the Dumonde about every 200-300 miles, give or take, and wiped it down with a microfiber towel regularly when in-between lubrication installments. I even cleaned it in an ultrasonic cleaner (simple green and water) around 900 miles in. As you can see, it will need to be replaced soon. The whole regimen was for nothing; I got 2,000 miles out of the chain which starred in the OP of this thread.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-qBSMSfs9Dfs/Ubkoty9nTvI/AAAAAAAANKk/aSNcVrCJy6Q/s800/Cannon%2520Camera%2520Download%25206-2013%2520151.jpg

Your front chain ring is worn out, replace this when fitting a new chain.

Your front chain ring is worn out, replace this when fitting a new chain.

Well, if you were to compare it with a new FSA ring, I think you'd see it's not actually that worn. I figure it's got a few more miles in it. To-date it only has about 5,500 miles on it.

you are kidding yourself , look at it , it is fecked, it is an ex chainring, any new chain you put on will be ATF in no time.
Learn to deal with entropy.

you are a pinhead, excellent; Im a brit and took a while to get you guys humour, sorry i bit

No worries. You can see for yourself. Sorry the pics are not better.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-fVUP3Db-b1U/Ubp22fjZboI/AAAAAAAANL4/spBLLjyUdfQ/s800/IMG_2783.jpg

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-SqPGycy5xg4/Ubp27ROFabI/AAAAAAAANMA/rhQsy728QYo/s800/IMG_2787.jpg

105 5700 chain lasts long and is cheaper than 6701.

I know this thread is about a road bike drivetrain but since the discussion included adding quicklinks, and more specifically, wipperman connex links, to make chain maintenance easier I would like to point out that these work very well for road bikes but I would not recommend them for mt bike chains. The way they come apart can be induced when one experiences chain-suck. I have never ridden with a compact crankset on a road bike so I don't know if the smaller chainrings are succeptible to this and if so I would use a different quick link with that type of setup as well. On normal road bike drivetrains the connex links work great and are easily seperated for maintenance.

ymmv
-j

ZTP, Do you also clean the cassette and chain rings when you clean the chain? Best to remove the cassette to prevent any solvents from entering the free hub. Don't remove the grease that a new chain arrives with. IME with motorcycle chains the majority of bushing wear occurs when a new chain is first put into service.

Brad

Hey Zippy, what do you weigh? And what sort of cadence do you turn?

Also, that ring is pretty worn, but I agree it probably has a while left in it. IMO the thinning of the teeth is nothing to be concerned about, but any shark-finning is obviously not a good thing because of the excess friction and accelerating wear... but less obvious is the minor diameter of the chainring; wear between the teeth. The chain rests on its rollers, and if that circle is smaller than it's meant to be for that many teeth, only the uppermost teeth will be taking any load, again accelerating wear.

@Kimmo, I'm @ 200 (91 kg), and usually spin around 85-90 RPM.

The large chainring is on it's third chain. Each of the chains-- including the first one pictured in the thread-- went 2000 miles (3200 km).

@bradtx, the instructions for the Dumonde lube specify that the chain should be degreased before applying the lube.

@Greenfieldja, did you have a Wippermann masterlink come apart on you when you were using it on an MTB? I carry a spare in my seatbag, just in case. There was another poster here on BF who said a masterlink had come apart on him and he couldn't find both pieces. IIRC he was on a road bike, however.

If you want an inexpensive chain that is resistant to stretching (aka roller pin wearing), get a Campagnolo Veloce 10sp. Nice chains. Cheap. Works perfectly with Ultegra drivetrains. Better than Shimano's chains (IMO).

you are kidding yourself , look at it , it is fecked, it is an ex chainring, any new chain you put on will be ATF in no time.
Learn to deal with entropy.

Disagree. That chainring has tons of life left in it, and won't wear a new chain any faster than a new chainring would. That myth has been debunked.

@bradtx, the instructions for the Dumonde lube specify that the chain should be degreased before applying the lube.

Don't lube the new chain for 2-300 miles.

Brad

FWIW, the guys at KMC say if you want to kill your chain, use a degreaser on it. Second, that chainring shows a wear pattern consistent with habitual cross chaining, which also contributes to heavy chain wear.

Tour Quarterly (a German road bike magazine) did a chain test a couple of years ago. You can read about it starting on page 44 (http://www.tour-qtr.com/epaper_4_2011). The top five chains to emerge from their test:

1) Shimano Dura-Ace CN7901
2) Shimano 105 CN5701
3) Campy Chorus 11
4) Campy Veloce 10
5) Shimano Ultegra CN6701.

Regarding the degreaser, in hindsight it may have been dumb, because the Dumonde lube (http://www.dumondetech.com/dumonde/products/bicycle-2/) has not delivered, IMO. However they clearly instruct users of their lube to do this:



Preparation and Application of Dumonde Tech Lite Chain Lube:To prepare for maximum performance from Dumonde Tech Lite Chain Lube, use a high quality solvent, for example Dumonde Tech Citrus Solvent, to thoroughly clean and dry the chain before the first application. You will only need to clean the chain once, prior to the first application of Lite. For optimum performance, 2-3 applications is required for the bonding process to occur through polymerization.

Thanks for the kind words. So thinner or alcohol would be preferable to Simple Green?
I use simple green and water in an ultrasonic cleaner. The only way to get a chain clean is to remove it from the bike.
http://draco.nac.uci.edu/rbfaq/FAQ/8d.2.html I clean my drive train every 750 miles or so. My 8sp chain has almost 8,000 miles on it and shows almost no wear.

Tour Quarterly (a German road bike magazine) did a chain test a couple of years ago. You can read about it starting on page 44 (http://www.tour-qtr.com/epaper_4_2011). The top five chains to emerge from their test:

1) Shimano Dura-Ace CN7901
2) Shimano 105 CN5701
3) Campy Chorus 11
4) Campy Veloce 10
5) Shimano Ultegra CN6701.

Regarding the degreaser, in hindsight it may have been dumb, because the Dumonde lube (http://www.dumondetech.com/dumonde/products/bicycle-2/) has not delivered, IMO. However they clearly instruct users of their lube to do this:
I failed to add the type of lube I use. I mix 1 part chainsaw bar oil to 4 parts unscented mineral spirits. I rode in the rain yesterday and the chain is not squeaking so it still has lube in it. I doubt that the lube is nearly as important as is regular maintenance.

What do you guys think about these nifty little tools for keeping the chain clean? http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002KYFWJ8/ref=olp_product_details?ie=UTF8&me=&seller=

What do you guys think about these nifty little tools for keeping the chain clean? http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002KYFWJ8/ref=olp_product_details?ie=UTF8&me=&seller=

You need a solvent of some kind to use one of those. Apart from the one chain where I followed the Dumonde instructions, I try to avoid putting solvent on chains.

I can't speak for the others here, because everyone pretty much does what's right in their own eyes regarding chain maintenance. I use a microfiber towel and wipe the chain down. I run it backwards and grip the chain with the towel.

I think I will continue using the Dumonde lube (I already paid for it, and it does, when one follows the instructions, keep the drive train externally clean), but perhaps I will not degrease the next chain first.