Bicycle Mechanics - "Scientific" professional bike fit -- am I missing something, or maybe not??

I am puzzled why anyone would need a high-tech "bike fit" except maybe a professional racer -- in which case perhaps it should be done in conjunction with power meter readings. I understand the cycling novice needs some common sense help. We have all winced seeing somebody panting and sweating like a hog with a saddle so low his knees are practically hitting his chin. But I question the point of the typical high $$ service such as offered at my LBS - a shop where I do a lot of business and for which I generally have a lot respect. I think it costs $150 and they use laser beams and digital readouts right down to a fraction of a mm! So now you adjust the bars to within 1 mm (or whatever) per all this high tech measuring, but what does it mean when road bars have 3 or more hand positions all of which are considered valid, and which are 100 plus mm's away from each other? Is it really that hard to set the saddle at the right height. look at your knees with pedals at 3 and 9 o'clock and then tweak to personal taste?

I think once you are in the ballpark, it comes down to trial and error and what you are comfortable with. Three years ago -- when I was only 62 years old -- I rode only occasionally and casually. I didn't get much other exercise. I got "born again" and now cycle maybe 100 miles/week, go to the gym 3x/week, and did a century + 12 miles the other day. During the last three years I have been dropping the handlebars on all my bikes as my core fitness has evidently improved. I used to get backaches unless the bars were 4 inches above the seat, but now I am happy to have them anywhere from level to 4 inches below the seat. (This is flat bars plus bar-ends -- I don't care for drops.) How would the high-tech, "accurate to 1 mm" fitting, have helped me with this?

Currently I have 5 bikes. None have been "scientifically" fitted, no two fit the same. I am always looking for bargain stems on e-bay, Craigslist and the local Frankenbike swap meet to add to my collection. I swap stems around and play with height until I like how a bike feels. I play with saddle setback until it feels good. Although none of my bikes fit the same, they all feel good to me, and, in fact, I find it refreshing and energizing to ride one I have been off for a while and which has different feel and fit than what I have been recently used to. It might seem a little "off" until I am 15 minutes into the ride, but then it is good.

If I am missing out I am happy to take under advisement an explanation of why this is so. Perhaps none of my bikes fit me and I don't know what I am missing, or perhaps they all fit OK -- just different? My personal opinion is that bike fitting is made far more complicated and difficult than it needs to be. I think there are so many variables re' the rider, that the hair-splitting scientific precision fit is an absurd premise.

Don in Austin

Don, I fit my bikes using the same method as you. I know the ballpark of what I want. I have a collection of stems and bars, and I fine-tune until I get it right. And by "right" I mean "comfortable".

My bikes are also not set up all the same. I like that I can grab a different fit depending upon my mood and the terrain I plan to ride. I actually learn a lot just from experimenting with different cockpit arrangements.

Agree totally. Old-school fitting methods plus trial and error is as good as it gets.

At the elite level, trial and error might involve wind tunnels and power meters, but it's still a question of trying variations on the ballpark fit.

Lasers and 1mm tolerance just seems like silly wank; no formula is going to reliably get you closer than almost there.

Same here. The important thing is I'm balanced and aligned.

Scientific fitting seems to have started with the Fit Kit. Its primary developer in the 1970s was a mathematician by training and a racing coach. At the time he was puzzled and possibly exasperated by the strange setups of amateur racers in the US who didn't have coaches, so he compiled fit tables by measuring top pro and amateur riders and their bikes.

Professional fitting has evolved into a considerable profit center for bike shops and various cycling, triathlon, and fitness coaches, so it's a service that isn't going away soon. And my guess is that with new cyclists on the road every spring, cyclists on new bikes, cyclists who don't have clubs with experienced coaches, it really is a good idea. But for riders who are in touch with their bodies and interested in becoming more proficient on the bike, who ride with experienced buddies and read the better coaching literature that's available, and who need no anatomical accommodations, a professional fit is not a necessity.

This is part of the way that cycling in North America has been pushed into an over-specialized, over-techy, sport enthusiast pursuit.

Every time a customer comes in requesting a "professional fitting" for their seawall-cruising comfort hybrid, I want to scream.

The shop I normally go to just had two guys trained and certified by Paul Swift. I've never been professionally fitted and my bikes feel fine but then again. It's like saying you've driven a 1973 Ford F150 with a bench seat most of all your driving days. Then jump into a newer F150 with fully adjustable leather bucket seats and seen the top of the mountain. You've grown acustom to what you've been driving for so long you've pretty much just accepted it for being comfy. Now I'm not saying it's the only way to get the "right" fit but it has me interested to a point. They have different levels of fitting also so you don't have to be setup so see how many watts you've gained from the fitting. They have a basic fitting where they setup your shoes/pedals/cleats, saddle/post, and stem length and then go up from there where they bust out the lasers and powertap and really start cracking numbers.

My son fitted a bike for a friend who subsequently took it somewhere in Texas where it was fitted by a pro-racer mechanic using some fancy computer software.

Net result- no changes what-so-ever.

For me, the pro fit is a starting point, then when you go out and ride, you do minor adjustment to find the best fitting. I do think it is worth it to get a pro fit as a reference.

As far as I can tell, most fitting 'systems' are based on a set of positioning rules derived from some statistical data collected from some unknown population of riders with unknown riding habits. That's all well and good and 'scientific', but... Statistics work fine when applied populations, but they rarely have any relevance to individuals.

So what I do is take a video of myself riding my bike on a set of rollers. Then I run the video through play back software that lets me look at it frame by frame, and I look for things like is my back flat and not hunched up, are my knees in positions throughout my pedal stroke that I know are comfortable and efficient for me, is the angle described by my femur and tib-fib likewise appropriate for me, arm angle in various positions on the bars, etc. Sounds time consuming, but really it takes more time to describe the process than to do it. After that, I go out and ride the heck out of the bike, and usually the need for fine adjustments, if any, becomes apparent pretty quickly.

Admittedly I used the 'conventional wisdom' as a starting point, but once I went through the usual process of trial and error (with the emphasis on 'error') to find what works for me, all it took was finding a way of documenting it, and the availability of video capable digi-cams solved that problem nicely.

Anyway, that's what works for me. As always, YMMV

-Bert

For me, the pro fit is a starting point, then when you go out and ride, you do minor adjustment to find the best fitting. I do think it is worth it to get a pro fit as a reference.

If I had got a pro fit three years ago, I would have had to make much more than minor adjustments. Until I got my core in shape I need the handlebars way up high to prevent backaches. I would say a pro fit is indeed better than no fit. I just can't see why you can't find the starting point yourself.

Don in Austin

While Im sure that all the super expensive bike fit will work. When bent riders mention pain people suffer when riding DF bikes they use the proper fit excuse, and claim there is no pain at all. Yeah sure.

Don,

Good point. A 'proper' fit is dynamic.

Every time a customer comes in requesting a "professional fitting" for their seawall-cruising comfort hybrid, I want to scream.
We once had to set up a Trek 7100 according to a fit chart signed by Dr. Andy Pruitt.

As far as I can tell, most fitting 'systems' are based on a set of positioning rules derived from some statistical data collected from some unknown population of riders with unknown riding habits. That's all well and good and 'scientific', but... Statistics work fine when applied populations, but they rarely have any relevance to individuals., and usually the need for fine adjustments, if any, becomes apparent pretty quickly.

That's what I think too. I suspect the population of riders that all the computer software is based upon are Olympic level and professional level riders. They tend to be in better shape than guys like me.

We once had to set up a Trek 7100 according to a fit chart signed by Dr. Andy Pruitt.

I once had a mechanic working for me whose girl friend wanted him to fit her road bike to her based upon 3 different magazine articles. I was torn between escaping and sticking around to watch the fun. I decided escaping was the better choice.

We once had to set up a Trek 7100 according to a fit chart signed by Dr. Andy Pruitt.

Geez. I would probably eat the chart and walk out.

What is the alternative, un-scientific, un-professional fit? I see that all the time on the MUP, would it kill a rider to set the seat to the right height? Proper fit will increase rider efficiency, some people are interested in getting better at their hobby.

What is the alternative, un-scientific, un-professional fit?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma

...Lasers and 1mm tolerance just seems like silly wank; no formula is going to reliably get you closer than almost there.

Eddy B set me up in 1978 at the OTC, no lasers, no magic. When I make make my final adjustments, I move the seat by 1-2mm increments. Overlaying the bikes in photoshop shows the bikes' seat/pedal position lines up spot-on. If you've never learned, you might just not know any better.

All I and others are saying is that any formula isn't going to be the last word; therefore a tolerance of something more like 5mm is going to be more realistic, given individual idiosyncrasies.

Only trial and error is going to get you from the ballpark to perfection (and what's perfect depends on many factors, some of which vary); it's not something any formula can do for you.

The formulas are to get you to the starting point of finding your best position. Via trial and error, not laser.

I'm sure lasers are invaluable when it comes to transferring your position from bike to bike, though.

So why slag a bike shop for offering the service? I have a professional measure my eyes for glasses, I don't go the the pharmacy and try a bunch of different ones, I ask a pro to get me close. Why not ask a pro to help with bike position fitting, esp if the rider isn't experienced? Why wouldn't one use a scientific process to arrive at correct position? Tolerence of ~5mm isn't tight enough for correct seat heigth, forward/back could be that sloppy depending on which saddle is used.

Don, I think I can conjure up a statistic to support the professional bike fitter based on cost of new bike v. how much it hurts while riding v. cyclist's experiance. Pro fittings are probably necessary for some and are a source of LBS income, plain and simple.

Brad

I don't think it's needed.

If you ride enough,you'll stumble on proper fit,whether you like it or not.I haven't met a single person that's riding their bike everyday/weekend for a year,who's bike doesn't fit.They either have a bike that fits or they quit riding because it's to painful for whatever reason.

It's like learning to drive a stickshift car,if you drive enough,you'll learn.

People riding around at the beach don't count,I'm talking about people that actually ride their bikes with a purpose(racing/commuting,ect.),not on a pub crawl.

So why slag a bike shop for offering the service?

You're straw-manning me.


I ask a pro to get me close.

Like I said, a pro fit can can only get you close. The exception is if you already have your position dialled in and want to transfer it to another bike.

This thread is full of morons.

A bike fit isn't just for 'pro racers'. It's for everyone that rides a bike, especially people are going to be spending more than 30 minutes clipped in for a ride. Cruising the bike paths on a fat tyre laid back bike? Probably won't matter that you didn't get a 90 minute fit.

Got a road bike and you're riding 1+ hours? Yeah, you want to get a fit.

If you actually went through a 1.5 hour fit, including fitting for shoe wedges and leg length discrepancy that there is a hella lot on a bike you cannot fit easily yourself. You can trial and error it but it is *really* difficult to measure yourself for various angles *while* riding the bike. You can get close with trial and error but it'll take you much longer to get there, if at all.

If you actually like riding your bike for long distances, which is why I assume most people are on here to begin with - spend the $100-$200 and get a fit. That's a negligible price to be spending on a bike 'accessory'.

As far as I can tell, most fitting 'systems' are based on a set of positioning rules derived from some statistical data collected from some unknown population of riders with unknown riding habits. That's all well and good and 'scientific', but... Statistics work fine when applied populations, but they rarely have any relevance to individuals.

Wrong.

Everyone starts at a base set of 'rules', if you want to call it that. It's up to the individual fitter to apply his experience for each rider as like you said, some will obviously be different than others.

For your month of trial and error, you can pay someone to do that in less than 2 hours. And you're not going to be buying potentially tons of stems/seatposts/seats in order to figure out which 'works'.

Wrong.

Everyone starts at a base set of 'rules', if you want to call it that. It's up to the individual fitter to apply his experience for each rider as like you said, some will obviously be different than others.

For your month of trial and error, you can pay someone to do that in less than 2 hours. And you're not going to be buying potentially tons of stems/seatposts/seats in order to figure out which 'works'.

So I just got back into cycling and go get a professional fit. The next weekend I go on a long ride and find out that after I have been out a while I have to stop every half hour because my back hurts.

I need the bars ridiculously high because my core strength is not so good. Three years later I can drop the bars down if I choose -- no problem.

Why would you need multiple seats or seatposts in any case unless the bike is totally the wrong size?

True story -- except that I didn't get the fit service.

Don in Austin

What is the alternative, un-scientific, un-professional fit? I see that all the time on the MUP, would it kill a rider to set the seat to the right height? Proper fit will increase rider efficiency, some people are interested in getting better at their hobby.

I don't think anybody is arguing that the seat shouldn't be at the right height. I just don't think it takes big $$ and high-tech laser beam technology to do it.

Don in Austin

Sorry to butt in here but I had no problems untill I used clipless pedals. Put them on my bike in 1986 and 6 months later my knees were trash and had knee surgery at the age of 18. At the time the surgeon said he was working a lot because of the new pedals. Today I have 4% tilt on my shoes and full float speed pedals. I wish there was a person who understood the setup in 1986 and how it applied to each individual. If everything feels good your OK, if not seek help ASAP. The damage that can be done is enormous. I do believe that for 90% of the people out there it's overkill to get a 300$ fit setup. If they check your saddle hight, toe in or out, reach and the other parameters you should be good. Read an article on the subject and have a friend help you out, If you have pain go to a shop and get checked.

There have been studies by , coaches for cycle racing ,
such as described C.O.N.I. book .. in the 60's.

We put people on the trainer stand, and look at the fit and make recommendations,
I get paid, by the Hour, so it must be a professional fit. :rolleyes:

Triage, analizing aches and pains resulting from percieved bike fit problems
gets you in the practice of an MD, with a specialty of Sports Orthopedics,
and Biomechanics.

those guys /gals don't work at, just, like, $10 an hour.
[w/o medical insurance benefits]

...Every time a customer comes in requesting a "professional fitting" for their seawall-cruising comfort hybrid, I want to scream.

Sheesh, they're called "customers" maybe it might be a good idea to "help" him. While a paid fitting might not make sense, you could take 5 minutes and check his saddle position. Maybe he needs some stuff and you could "sell" something to him while you're at it. You will have to stop texting your girlfriend, hope that's not going to ruin your day.

Wrong.

Everyone starts at a base set of 'rules', if you want to call it that. It's up to the individual fitter to apply his experience for each rider as like you said, some will obviously be different than others.

For your month of trial and error, you can pay someone to do that in less than 2 hours. And you're not going to be buying potentially tons of stems/seatposts/seats in order to figure out which 'works'.

Au contraire...

The 'rules' you speak of are exactly what I've described them as, a statistically based set of positional relationships. And yes, it's worthwhile to have someone who knows what they're doing help you find that starting point, and I would encourage anyone starting out to do so. None the less, I've yet to have a 'professional' fitting that didn't require some fine tuning after the fact. Sometimes it took a month's wortgh of trial and error, most times considerably less.

However, having once arrived at a 'perfect fit' and documented it with reproducible video records, I can easily reproduce a that fit in a less than your 2 hour fitter's session, and I can track changes in what works over time. The fly in this ointment is the data only applies to one person, me.

Like I said, YMMV, but it works for me.

Sheesh, they're called "customers" maybe it might be a good idea to "help" him. While a paid fitting might not make sense, you could take 5 minutes and check his saddle position. Maybe he needs some stuff and you could "sell" something to him while you're at it. You will have to stop texting your girlfriend, hope that's not going to ruin your day.

Gigantic eye roll.

There seem to me to be a few points of agreement:
-Casual riders really don't need to fitted, although getting the seat and handlebars at a comfortable height is a good idea.
-Being comfortable and staying healthy on a bike ridden a lot is dependent to a large degree on fitment.
-An experienced rider who pays attention to such things and is observant, whether a mechanic, cycling coach or enthusiast, can be very helpful to less experienced riders when it comes to fitting, regardless of the methods and measurements used.

I think the laser measurement stuff is an attempt to codify experience and knowledge so that bike mechanics who don't possess the same experience and knowledge can help even less experienced riders. In practice, it is flawed, but probably better than guesswork. A good mechanic with an understanding of fit is going to be better at using the computerized information than somebody with a ruler, straightedge and no real idea of what he's doing.

The value of a 2 hour fitting session depends on the customer. If their perception is that it was worth it, that's fine. I don't think it is a scam: just another way for the bike business to create perceived value & sell it.

You want to know from scams? Don't get me started on nitrogen-filled tires!

Interesting thread. On this, and many other forums, there is a large amount of postings on the order of "hand numbness - what to do?" or "Knee pain in the front", etc. Having read many of these posts, the majority of the answers are "go get fit, something's off." I think that is where the true value is in a fitting. These newbies don't have the knowledge to begin to experiment. Knees? I can think of 5 things or more that might affect that. Which should that newbie try first? Or which combo of two or three? That is the value...getting a good starting point.

Interesting thread. On this, and many other forums, there is a large amount of postings on the order of "hand numbness - what to do?" or "Knee pain in the front", etc. Having read many of these posts, the majority of the answers are "go get fit, something's off." I think that is where the true value is in a fitting. These newbies don't have the knowledge to begin to experiment. Knees? I can think of 5 things or more that might affect that. Which should that newbie try first? Or which combo of two or three? That is the value...getting a good starting point.

Knee pain in the front was a big problem for me a while back. In my case stretching got rid of it completely. I think I was training hard and got my leg muscles out-of-balance with tightness problems.

Yes the newbie is often clueless and does, indeed, need help. When I started this thread, I gave the example of a dude sweating like a hog, huffing and puffing at 6 mph with his knees practically hitting his chin. I saw exactly that the other day, and the dude was a BODY BUILDER, yet I could have easily passed him riding upright with one hand swinging in the breeze and singing a song. While I am not doing badly for 65 years old, there are lots of riders far stronger than I. For him to get a good fit, the fitter needs to understand where he is over-developed and tight, what postures he can and can not tolerate, what kind of riding will he be doing. His optimum fit will not be remotely like that of a well-trained, light, slender road racer. Then, if the dude rides regularly, it should all be revisited in a few weeks -- maybe raise the seat a hair, raise the handlebars and tell him to drop them back down if his back hurts. No amount of laser beam illusion of scientific precision can take the place of that type of understanding and attention.

Don in Austin

Every time a customer comes in requesting a "professional fitting" for their seawall-cruising comfort hybrid, I want to scream.

When I post questions about aches or pains I'm usually told to go get a professional fitting on my Trek 7000. I haven't done it yet because my bike and riding style don't seem to be appropriate for that. So maybe they're posting here?