Singlespeed & Fixed Gear - IRO Wheelset Upgrade

I'm currently rolling on DP18s to Formulas. I thought I wouldn't mind the weight, but they truly are heavy as heck. Should I order IRO hubs/rims + spokes and build another wheelset? Would it be worth my time as an upgrade or am I just comparing oranges to oranges?

I think you'll see i differnece not only losing weight but losing alotta rotating weight.

I'm interested in this too, I'm tired of my dp18s and have been looking for something lighter.

Well, they're definitely a lot lighter than DP18s.

Light wheels are nice, but your aren't going to feel any difference by going from a heavy wheel set to a slightly less heavy wheelset.

An IRO wheelset isn't going to be much lighter than your present wheels. They both are way over 2000 gms, which, by modern standards, are extremely heavy wheels. You aren't going to find a cheap track wheelset thats very light..its just not a priority for most people riding FG/SS.

For a couple of hundred dollars, you can build a much lighter wheelset than you can buy without using expensive weight-weenie components. Start with a road front hub, rather than a heavy track hub. That will take off at least 100gms, likely more. Use butted spokes, 20-28 in front and 24-32 in the rear (depending on your weight) and a Kinlin rim (depth of your choice, again depending on your weight and spoke count) will get you down to 1350-1500 gms (depending on spoke count and rim depth).

The weights of my various wheelsets vary by several pounds. I can't really feel the difference between any of them when riding along. Are you sure its not all in your head?

An IRO wheelset isn't going to be much lighter than your present wheels. They both are way over 2000 gms, which, by modern standards, are very heavy wheels. You aren't going to find a cheap track wheelset thats very light..its just not a priority for most people riding FG/SS. For a couple of hundred dollars, you can build a much lighter wheelset than you can buy, easily getting it down to 1500 gms or less without using expensive weight-weenie components.

The weights of my various wheelsets varies by several pounds. I can't really feel the difference between any of them when riding along. Are you sure its not all in your head?

Do you have them, or are you assuming? A guy on another forum built a 1630g multispeed wheelset with them.

Do you have them, or are you assuming? A guy on another forum built a 1630g multispeed wheelset with them.

Get off the drugs.

I have had all the parts. Also, its easy to add this stuff up from info on the internet. A pair of IRO hubs, IRO (Velocity Fusion rims), with 32x2 straight gauge spokes is going to weigh around 1981 gms, probably more because published weights are usually less than reality. Add spoke nipples and rim tape, its going to be over 2000 gms wheelset. I'm not sure if my wieght data includes track nuts, but if not, add another hundred+ gms.

In comparison, I have a pair of wheels built with 30mm deep Kinlin rims, formula rear hub, sub-100 gm Formula front road hub, with 24 CX Ray spokes in front and 28 CX Ray spokes in rear that weighs 1560 gms, including tape, rear track nuts and front bolt-on skewer. Total cost 3 years ago was about $350. With a shallower rim and novatec rear hub (which has a hollow axle), you could get it down to around 1400 gms without additional cost. You could also substantially reduce the cost by at least $100 by using a strongly butted round spoke such as a wheelsmith XL 15 rather than an oval CX Ray.

So you're assuming they're velocity fusions and not kinlins, because you've compared them side by side and weighed all three?

So you're assuming they're velocity fusions and not kinlins, because you've compared them side by side and weighed all three?

I have compared them all. I'm not assuming anything. IRO rims are not Kinlins...they don't even look remotely similar.
What exactly is your point?

It doesn't sound like it'd be worth it to replace my DP18s with an IRO set. How about a stock Kilo set with an IRO set? What'd be "cute" (for a female) on a green Kilo?

I'm toying with the idea of buying Kinlins and relacing my DP18s. I wish they made Kinlins in NMSW!

Replacing your DP18s alone with just about any rim will save you several hundred gms, but I'm still not convinced its going to be worth the cost. You are still going to end up with a heavy, overbuilt, dead-feeling wheel that is only a few hundred grams lighter, which still isn't likely to amount to even 1% of your body weight.

If you want lighter wheels, I would save more money and do it right the first time by building a truly light wheelset that is appropriate for someone of your size and riding style.

Edit: this is a very useful thread....http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php/539905-homebuilt-affordable-lightish-wheelset?highlight=lightish+wheelset

Kinlins are so pricey compared to IROs. :(

i built an IRO wheelset, the rims are tough to bring up to tension and aren't perfectly round. Be careful. I honestly don't know if you'll be getting an upgrade or not

Kinlins are so pricey compared to IROs. :(

The IRO rims aren't going to weigh much more than Kinlin XR30s, although they aren't as deep and will necessitate new spokes. But if you are going to go that far, you might as well just built up a whole new wheelset that is built just for you, with lighter hubs, strongly butted spokes, a light rim, and lower spoke counts. Track wheels have no dish and are therefore very strong in comparison to heavily dished road wheels. The standard fixie wheelset built with 32 straight gauge spokes, heavy deep rims, and heavy high-flange hubs, is way beyond overkill for most people. If built correctly anyone under 200 lbs can easily be riding around on much less.

I have compared them all. I'm not assuming anything. IRO rims are not Kinlins...they don't even look remotely similar.
What exactly is your point?

I'm just curious as to where you are getting your information. Everything you've said directly contradicts what I have heard elsewhere. Sorry for hijacking the thread though.

I'm just curious as to where you are getting your information. Everything you've said directly contradicts what I have heard elsewhere. Sorry for hijacking the thread though.

OK, I'm sure "everything" I have said doesn't contract whatever you have heard. It doesn't help if you aren't going to be specific about anything. If it is in regard to weights....the data, which are readily available on the internet, support my statements.

Edit: OK, after rereading your earlier posts, perhaps you are refering to the maker of the rims....IRO rims are not Kinlins..they aren't even close. It is, however, identical to the velocity Fusion rim as far as I can tell. Its not that the IRO rim is heavy, it just isn't very light either. Its not surprising that some guy built a 1630 gm wheelset with IRO rims (if thats what you meant in your first post), but he clearly could not have done that with IRO (Formula) track hubs and plain gauge spokes.

kinlins are in fact rebranded as IRD...cadence (24mm) and cadence aero (30mm).

quality rims. good blend of weight/strength/cost. while i don't run them fixed, i do have a geared wheelset w/30mm kinlins, dt hubs, low-count bladed spokes (~1500g, ready to roll), which have been flawless for 15k+.

kinlins are in fact rebranded as IRD...

Correct.
Kinlin rims can be found under a wide variety of brand names and are found on many different brands of pre-built road wheels. However, as far as I know, the rims alone are only available unbranded or branded as IRD rims. There are also 27 mm and 38 mm versions available. The main appeal of these rims is that they are the lightest aluminum clinchers available (per mm of depth). Despite their light weight they have a nearly flawless reputation for being strong, dependable rims and they are reasonably priced.
I've been using the 30 mm version for years, with reduced spoke counts, with no problems on both road wheels and fg/track wheels.

i was suggesting perhaps some confusion (IRD / IRO) on the other poster's part. carry on...

I see. Yes, that could be the source of the misunderstanding. IRO and IRD...not the same thing.

Gotcha, the whelset was using novatec hubs and I'm sure that impacted the weight a good deal. Thanks for the input on IRD as well.

As a general rule, basic prebuilt FG wheels are usually several hundred gms heavier than basic prebuilt road wheels. A lot of this differnce is explained by the front hub. Any road front hub is going to be more than 100 gms lighter than a typical high flange track front hub+track nuts. The other few hundred extra grams on the typical fg wheel are explained by cheapness.....plain gauge spokes, higher spoke count, and the tendency to use deeper heavier rims.

Reduce the spoke count, use butted spokes, use a road front hub, and a reasonably light rim and you'll have much lighter wheels.
In fact, because FG/SS wheels have symmetrical dish, the wheel is structurally more sound than a geared wheel and, in theory, you should be able to build with fewer spokes and lighter components than with road wheels.

mihlbach - i'm about 190 or so. What spoke count would you recommend?

mihlbach - i'm about 190 or so. What spoke count would you recommend?

It depends on the depth of the rim (and a few other factors)... My current wheelset with Kinlin XR300s is 24/28. I built that wheelset when I weighed 205-210 and at that weight they felt more than stiff enough even during a full sprint and are more than strong enough to handle curbs and potholes.
These days I am very close to your weight and if I were to build another wheelset with the same components I would go down to 20/24 and would be absolutely confident that they would be sufficiently stiff and responsive.

Keep in mind, there are a lot of fatties out there riding road bikes with way fewer spokes than that. With lower spoke counts, a quality build is very important, and as long as the wheel is built right, strength is less of an issue than stiffness. Road wheels have asymmetrical dish (due to the cassette) and consequently that makes the wheel less stiff and the non-drive-side spokes more prone to breakage. My 28 spoke rear road wheel, built with the same rims and spokes, feels like a wet noodle compared to my 28 rear FG wheel. A ss/fg wheel is structurally stiffer and more fatigue resistant, in theory, allowing you to use even less material in the wheel without compromising its stability or longevity.

Conservatively, 24/28 will be more than strong enough for someone your size (no tricking of course), but if you know how to build a good wheel and can appreciate fast light wheel, 20/24.

A shallower rim causes the load cycles on the spokes to be more intense, so you would want more. For a very light, shallow rim, I would bump the spoke count up to at least 28/32, maybe even a little more for a Kinlin XR200.

Thanks Mihlbach, I always find your information very valuable and well written.

do you think using a 20/24 i could get away with radial lacing?

Radial lacing is preferable for low spoke count front wheels because it makes up for some of the stiffness that is lost from removing spokes. Its also very easy to build a radial laced wheel. The only problem with radial is the additional stress on the hub flange. But with fewer spokes, its less of a problem. As a general rule, if the hub isn't specifically rated for radial, then use 1x...its almost as stiff as radial but easier on the hub.

Never radial lace a rear wheel, of course.

Thanks Mihlbach, I always find your information very valuable and well written.

do you think using a 20/24 i could get away with radial lacing?

my road wheels are 20/24 with 30mm kinlins, aerolites radial front/2x rear, on the relatively narrow dt240s campy hubs...and at ~175-180lbs i find them plenty stiff. a fixed rear wheel is stiffer yet, with no dish.

one quirk sometimes mentioned with the kinlins is soft braking surfaces. several mentions of one-ride & chewed up. i used fresh pads when i started using my rims, and only use salmon kool stop. after a lot of (fair weather) miles, you can still see the original machining marks on my brake surfaces. make what you want of this...

Thanks Mihlbach, I always find your information very valuable and well written.


qft

Never radial lace a rear wheel, of course.
Radial lacing the non-drive side of a road rear is okay though, yes?

Radial lacing the non-drive side of a road rear is okay though, yes?

Many wheel manufacturers like Zipp use radial lacing for the nds on rear road wheels, because there is a lot of dish, so the right flange is close to the plane of the rim and most of the torque is transferred to the rim on that side. It is not desirable on track hubs, where the flanges are equidistant, and the left side can contribute significantly to torque transfer.

you can just replace your current dp-18 rims with some lighter rims and reuse your spokes and hubs. You should be able to just swap them out for kinlin xr300. that'll drop you about 400-500g at the furthest point of your rotation for only like $50-75.

Many wheel manufacturers like Zipp use radial lacing for the nds on rear road wheels, because there is a lot of dish, so the right flange is close to the plane of the rim and most of the torque is transferred to the rim on that side. It is not desirable on track hubs, where the flanges are equidistant, and the left side can contribute significantly to torque transfer.

FYI Zipps are now laced radially on the drive side.

FYI Zipps are now laced radially on the drive side.

wheel manufactures seem to go back and forth between redial NDS and DS. NDS radial with the spokes on the inside of the flange reduces dish a little. You can also buy off-center rims to reduce dish

FYI Zipps are now laced radially on the drive side.

Correct. When I bought my 303 and 404 road wheels, they were laced 2X on the ds and radial on the nds. Now they are crossed on the nds, and radial on the ds, which I don't understand. Anyways, I won't buy them, and would get something from Easton instead.