Classic & Vintage - Newer Dual Pivot brakes on C&V frames

I've been thinking of getting some new brakes for my Miyata, and I like the modern dual pivot designs. Pretty much everything out there though has the recessed mounting bolts though. I am not going to drill out the rear bridge or fork in hopes of making this work. The only set i've seen with the traditional nut style mount is a set of Tektro's. Does anyone know of other makes that could work.

Ah.....I'm in the same boat. I got some Tektro long reach with the recessed bolts. Then, I found Tektro offered some with the nutted style. Oh well....I got a good deal on the long reach. And, I've already got the fork crown drilled, anyway.

If anyone was willing to supply a pic or two of their vintage frame with modern dual pivots, that' be swell.....:D

A half moon washer, and a couple of flat washers behind that should make any set of modern dual pivots work on an older fork. You can also cut down the bolt if it's still too long.

I seem to be under the impression that the mounting bolt for the recessed calipers are shorter than the traditional nut mount (I haven't actually measured any.) By the time I put the half-moon washers on there would not be any exposed threads to get a bolt on?

I don't think that's the problem, dude. He just doesn't want to drill on the frame, but would like to use dual pivots.

203396 Sorry about taking a picture in the dark but this is the best I could do. The squarish part holds a valve adapter, don't know what it's called but I didn't have to drill my frame.

As I recall, Sheldon suggested that a front brake designed for recessed mounting would work for the rear in a nutted configuration (with the appropriate washers etc added)... If that is the case, it solves half of your problem.

I wouldn't look much further than Tektro. Their levers and calipers work very, very well and are under priced. Find the reach you need and then buy the nutted version.

I wouldn't look much further than Tektro. Their levers and calipers work very, very well and are under priced. Find the reach you need and then buy the nutted version.

I can't say anything about the calipers but I recently put a set of tektro levers on bike to sell it and they were very nice. I think lots of guys here use the nutted ones on their older bikes

I wouldn't look much further than Tektro. Their levers and calipers work very, very well and are under priced. Find the reach you need and then buy the nutted version.

+1
I chose to spend much, much more money on a set of these (http://www.paulcomp.com/racerm.html) (mainly to preserve C&V aesthetics). They work VERY well, but not any better than the Tektros.

This is an '84 with Tektro Dual Pivots (W/ Recessed nuts)

https://picasaweb.google.com/alario/84MiyataTeam#5476815253165725362https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-eR-YG2B3juY/TAGOdJFiVrI/AAAAAAAABF8/qY2oW7Uwu5M/s640/img_1402.jpg

stops on a dime.

I put newer dual pivots on my Girlfriends Bianchi, they are much nicer. Now her bike is head and shoulders better than mine...

this thread and more so Rccardr's about his Merckx gave an idea. I just got a a, well uh well a new project, and I wanted to use all black. the only decent brakes I found sofar are olde DA nutted and I need recess. I am not a big fan of DP brakes but black Tektros may fill the bill this time around.

http://www.ebikestop.com//prodimages/BR7312.jpg

just curious, why don't you like Dual Pivots Bianchigirl?

This is an '84 with Tektro Dual Pivots (W/ Recessed nuts)

https://picasaweb.google.com/alario/84MiyataTeam#5476815253165725362https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-eR-YG2B3juY/TAGOdJFiVrI/AAAAAAAABF8/qY2oW7Uwu5M/s640/img_1402.jpg

stops on a dime.


Where did you get that seat, it's awful, and those tires and that tape, jeeeeez!


just kidding.

So you drilled out the rear bridge and the fork? I don't really want to do that, but is it not that big of a deal?

This is an '84 with Tektro Dual Pivots (W/ Recessed nuts)

https://picasaweb.google.com/alario/84MiyataTeam#5476815253165725362https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-eR-YG2B3juY/TAGOdJFiVrI/AAAAAAAABF8/qY2oW7Uwu5M/s640/img_1402.jpg

stops on a dime.

Holy guacamole, that's hot!

just curious, why don't you like Dual Pivots Bianchigirl?

I have no factual reasons to dislike them I guess perhaps it is mostly an aesthetics thing. back when I worked in a shop the shimanos were all that were around and the Campi were just coming out. I guess I never learned to like the looks and perfered the original Chorus Monoplanor style brakes styling.

as for the gain in performance, yes they are great stoppers but, when I first got into cycling big time in late 80s it was trying to race. riding mostly group training rides in pace lines and training races it was almost forbidden to use your brakes. God forbid your brakes squealed!!! anyway in that enviroment I learned to lay off the brakes a bit and not reach for the the second something looks out of place. also in tight packs and pacelines having brakes that "stop on a dime" may be more dangerous than not stopping.

I do have two pair of Campi records, on retired in lieu of the afore mentioned monoplanor style brakes. they work well I guess I just don't go fast enough to need all that stopping power.

I put a pair of the Tektro 559's on my '63 Hetchins. I needed the reach for a frame originally built for 27" wheels and I wanted to go 700c.

I am extremely happy with them. They have good pads, but I added KoolStop dual compounds. It isn't about stopping in a group. It's about stopping when the idiot driver pulls a car out in front of you, or at that stop sign at the bottom of a steep hill. I'm decidedly chubby. I need that stopping power!!!

Plus, I think they look fine. I use them with old style standard Campy levers, but I'll probably use the Tektro levers on the next bike.

All that said, I DO wish that VO would supply a nutted version of the Grand Cru calipers. (If enough people ask, they will. Hint, hint!)

I wouldn't look much further than Tektro. Their levers and calipers work very, very well and are under priced. Find the reach you need and then buy the nutted version.

+1

I'm also hoarding a set of unlabeled Shimano A550 nutted dual pivot calipers. I think I may have purchased the last new set ever produced. You can also find earlier versions labeled RX-100.

OP...I know you have stated you do not want to drill anything out...but I have done this twice and would like to share my experience, which is not as scary as it sound
s
first the the only place you need to drill out is the front fork. and then only the rear hole on the front fork. The amount of material removed is very small.... a few shavings. You then put the rear brake on the front and attache using an extra long bolt.

you then use the front brake on the rear and find a nut to fit. I had one shop tell me that the pull is different for the dual pivot, so I shouldn't use my old levers, but I didn't have any problems in that area....ymmv

http://sheldonbrown.com/calipers.html#recessed

Where may one buy these nutted Tektro brakes?

i know why i personally don't like dual pivots-- they almost always feel mushy, and while they stop okay.. they just don't feel like the brakes i had on bikes during the 80's. look for an old set of dia compe g's or something comparable, spend a few bucks, set 'em tight with a classic pair of DC levers, and be done with it. cheap and feel great.

i still contend that single pivots, while maybe marginally fussier-- have twice the spring power, and snap like no dualies i've ever felt.

OP...I know you have stated you do not want to drill anything out...but I have done this twice and would like to share my experience, which is not as scary as it sound

first the the only place you need to drill out is the front fork. and then only the rear whole. The amount of material removed is vers small.... a few shavings. You then put the rear brake on the front and attache using an extra long bolt.

you then use the front brake on the rear and find a nut to fit. I had one shop tell me that the pull is different for the dual pivot, so I shouldn't use my old levers, but I didn't have any problems in that area....ymmv

http://sheldonbrown.com/calipers.html#recessed


^^This.

i still contend that single pivots, while maybe marginally fussier-- have twice the spring power

Yeah... not even close. Take the 600 tri color brakes for example, I've had the single pivots and dual pivots, with the same pads, and the dual pivot ones are significantly better.

Stuff like the tektros will be better than any single pivot brakes, and the tektros are mediocre dual pivot brakes (sorry but they are). Some of the better dual pivot brakes are amazingly powerful compared to vintage brakes.

Where may one buy these nutted Tektro brakes?

T'was either VO or Rivendell where I saw them. I'm thinking VO, more likely.

i know why i personally don't like dual pivots-- they almost always feel mushy, and while they stop okay.. they just don't feel like the brakes i had on bikes during the 80's. look for an old set of dia compe g's or something comparable, spend a few bucks, set 'em tight with a classic pair of DC levers, and be done with it. cheap and feel great.

i still contend that single pivots, while maybe marginally fussier-- have twice the spring power, and snap like no dualies i've ever felt.

OH I see I have an Ally :)

I'm with you, too, bianchigirll. They're good brakes, and I have a set not yet installed, but I'm trying to hold off using them. Single pivot sidepulls are the simplest brake around, and you never have to adjust the pads after the first time.

I have a feeling dual pivots solved a problem no one really had. Or they compensated for the fact that people don't know how to center single pivots. Not that they're bad, but the change seems unnecessary to me.

less talk more photos :rolleyes:

203477

Where may one buy these nutted Tektro brakes?

Here http://www.rivbike.com/products/show/tektro-bigmouth-73/15-151
or here http://store.velo-orange.com/index.php/components/brakes/tektro-r539ag-long-reach-brakes.html

If you want to stay with a classic style, these (http://store.velo-orange.com/index.php/components/brakes/dia-compe-610-centerpull-brake.html) work on both recessed or nutted mounting.

This is an '84 with Tektro Dual Pivots (W/ Recessed nuts)

https://picasaweb.google.com/alario/84MiyataTeam#5476815253165725362https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-eR-YG2B3juY/TAGOdJFiVrI/AAAAAAAABF8/qY2oW7Uwu5M/s640/img_1402.jpg

stops on a dime.

purdy! I'm sure someone already mentioned this, but you're dt cable stops are technically flipped I think. Barrels should be down from the screw on the opposite side. At least that's how I've always seen/done it. I'm sure it works just a well that way.

IMO, I think they are sexier so I want to swap out the the old dia-compes, that and I bent an arm on the front brake in a somewhat nasty crash a little over a week ago.

purdy! I'm sure someone already mentioned this, but you're dt cable stops are technically flipped I think. Barrels should be down from the screw on the opposite side. At least that's how I've always seen/done it. I'm sure it works just a well that way.

actually I think you're the first to mention it. I couldn't figure out which side was for which when I installed em over a year ago :lol:

atmdad, I didn't drill this frame out, it was made for recessed brakes

^ just an obscure Airplane reset

Where may one buy these nutted Tektro brakes?

Front: http://www.biketoolsetc.com/index.cgi?id=316199216443&d=single&c=Components&sc=Brakes&tc=Road&item_id=TK-800AF

Rear: http://www.biketoolsetc.com/index.cgi?id=316199216443&d=single&c=Components&sc=Brakes&tc=Road&item_id=TK-800AR

$14/caliper -- can't be beat!

i still contend that single pivots, while maybe marginally fussier-- have twice the spring power, and snap like no dualies i've ever felt.

i think ideally youre supposed to mate dual pivot brakes with levers which have a return spring in them

Front: http://www.biketoolsetc.com/index.cgi?id=316199216443&d=single&c=Components&sc=Brakes&tc=Road&item_id=TK-800AF

Rear: http://www.biketoolsetc.com/index.cgi?id=316199216443&d=single&c=Components&sc=Brakes&tc=Road&item_id=TK-800AR

$14/caliper -- can't be beat!

Have you seen them in person? I have a set on a beater. They're crudely finished, have no quick release and are wrong sided. They don't need a quick release if you use levers that have them and the wrongsidedness can be a plus on some frames. I suppose they could be stripped and polished to a better finish. They work very well.

^ I didn't even notice they were "wrong" sided! That's so awesome! I've been looking for some logically sided long reach brakes for a while, and I may actually try just what you suggested. Polish them to a better finish. To me, it only makes sense to use brakes that are "wrong sided" considering my right hand is the one still on the brake when I'm signalling. I'd rather that be my dominate brake as well. If I have to stop hard in that situation, I'm probably in trouble either way, but at least I can slow down a little if I have my hand on the front brake.

Would you say they stop better than a decent pair of single pivots? These would be going on the bike that's going to get a lot of miles this summer, so I want something that has a good bit of stopping power.

I bit the bullet an ordered up a set of these,
http://www.niagaracycle.com/images/jbimages/12621.jpg

and will follow the tips provided here and at SB.

*****
whoa, that's a big pic

I say that wrongsidedness can be a plus because a lot of British and French bikes that originally had centepulls have the rear brake cable stops on the drive side. I happen to prefer my front brake connected to the left lever, but the bike that has those brakes is the other way.


I'm not ready to say that they stop better than any of my single pivots, but I'm still using the original pads. Be sure to get the matching levers with quick releases from the same place.

Here's an example of when wrongsided sidepulls are an advantage:

http://inlinethumb11.webshots.com/45962/2220396440068014369S600x600Q85.jpg (http://sports.webshots.com/photo/2220396440068014369OXjYxy)

Have you seen them in person? I have a set on a beater. They're crudely finished, have no quick release and are wrong sided. They don't need a quick release if you use levers that have them and the wrongsidedness can be a plus on some frames. I suppose they could be stripped and polished to a better finish. They work very well.

Yes, I have two sets. I agree they're probably not appropriate for a concourse bike, but to replace nasty stamped steel calipers on my daughter's Raleigh Sports they work fine -- better than original, in fact.

snip I have a feeling dual pivots solved a problem no one really had. Or they compensated for the fact that people don't know how to center single pivots. Not that they're bad, but the change seems unnecessary to me.

My experience is that on the same bike, the dual pivot ultegra brakes have a large improvement in stopping power as compared to the ultegra 600 tri-color (new pads both sets of brakes)... YMMV

Yeah... not even close. Take the 600 tri color brakes for example, I've had the single pivots and dual pivots, with the same pads, and the dual pivot ones are significantly better.

Stuff like the tektros will be better than any single pivot brakes, and the tektros are mediocre dual pivot brakes (sorry but they are). Some of the better dual pivot brakes are amazingly powerful compared to vintage brakes.

meh. i disagree. not a tektro fan, and i DO like new shimanos a lot- they're great brakesets. but 'tektros are better than any single pivots' is a patently false statement, unless of course you have some sort of evidence to that effect. i suspect not. particularly from the aspect of feel. tektros are very effective at making a good bike feel like a cheap POS, far as i'm concerned.

old pads? yup.. those can suck. but single pivot brakes can be JUST as powerful, and feel great. sounds like you mighta run into more than a few that were either badly set up, or had a passel of bikes with weinmann centerpulls... :o

sounds like you mighta run into more than a few that were either badly set up, or had a passel of bikes with weinmann centerpulls... :o
I haven't actually used Weinmann centerpulls myself, but I thought some were supposed to be good stopping brakes? I've used the cheaper "universal" or whatever centerpulls and they'll stop you better than almost every single pivot brake I've used. I've only had one pair of single pivots that will easily brake hard enough to flip you over if you want them to. Is there a trick I'm missing to setting them up?

Dp brakes are designed to have more leverage, it is that simple. They also flex less in general.

I'm with you, too, bianchigirll. They're good brakes, and I have a set not yet installed, but I'm trying to hold off using them. Single pivot sidepulls are the simplest brake around, and you never have to adjust the pads after the first time.

I have a feeling dual pivots solved a problem no one really had. Or they compensated for the fact that people don't know how to center single pivots. Not that they're bad, but the change seems unnecessary to me.

I can't agree with you. The Tektros on my Raleigh Competions are far superior to any of my other brakes and my other brakes are 600 Tricolor, Dura Ace, Super Record and MAFAC Competitions. They all have Kool Stops. The Heshey Racing V brakes on my daughter's MTB grab harder, but modulation sucks.

I don't have trouble centering any of my brakes. It's not difficult.

Dp brakes are designed to have more leverage, it is that simple. They also flex less in general.

okay. it might be that simple to you, but they still feel like dook to me. hopefully this doesn't lead into a frame flex discussion as well.. 'cause i don't mind flex there either. :D lemme explain what i mean via 3 speed's question.


I haven't actually used Weinmann centerpulls myself, but I thought some were supposed to be good stopping brakes? I've used the cheaper "universal" or whatever centerpulls and they'll stop you better than almost every single pivot brake I've used. I've only had one pair of single pivots that will easily brake hard enough to flip you over if you want them to. Is there a trick I'm missing to setting them up?

oh.. i'm just joshing about weinmanns- i use centerpulls m'self, and i love them. but i think that there are major differences of modern and vintage (i.e. dual vs. single pivot) brakes in their setup. i always used to (and actually continue to) set up single pivots fairly close to the rim. i think a lot of modern brakes get set up to hit the rim slowly- as pads are toeable and tapered- so you give them wider berth on the rim, and can ease them in. they have a built in 'mechanical modulation control'-- and single pivot modulation comes from a mixture of the the caliper flex and the give in the system- including the levers and the cabling all combining-- so if you set them up LOOSE-- they go all mushy feeling-- but if you set them up to engage early, as you pull harder, you get great mechanical gains, even with all the 'slop'. even the levers let you get better torque-- or at least it sure seems like they have a greater arc to let you get a 'handful of brake' so you can work them with arm strength-- not just mechanical leverage.

ultimately-- both work well-- but i'm primarily hasslin' mazdaspeed for untethered qualifiers :D they both have little intricacies of setup that make either work well. i clearly prefer muscle powered brakes and snappy levers from strong springs- there's probably some reason that that paradigm went out of fashion-- but i surely didn't agree to it.

Honestly the thought of single pivot brakes being better is pure curmudgeonry and is flat out wrong. At best they're almost as good as crappy dual pivot brakes, but a well set up pair of good dual pivot brakes is significantly more powerful than any set of side pull single pivot brake calipers, period.

You can convert any Tektro brake to nutted by using the hardware from those $14 800s that Bike Tools Etc is selling. Somebody posted a link to a site selling those brakes for $17 a set not long ago.

Here's a question for you fellas not terribly cozy with DP's......or, I guess, anyone really.....

I got some for my Trek 614 because I wanted to run 700c. The original DiaCompe 500's are maxed on on their reach. I read where many folks tend to believe this offers unneccessary and undesirable flex leading to poorer braking. True? Whether or not it is, would DP's....ie, the Tektro long reach R538's.......what I purchased.....offer better braking than the 500's at their max reach? Given equal pads and equal levers......Dia Compe aero levers and Kool stop salmon?

Honestly the thought of single pivot brakes being better is pure curmudgeonry and is flat out wrong. At best they're almost as good as crappy dual pivot brakes, but a well set up pair of good dual pivot brakes is significantly more powerful than any set of side pull single pivot brake calipers, period.

I'll have to back mazda on this one. Although I can set a pair of single pivots to stop on a dime just like a pair of dual pivots, it doesn't mean that SPs are inherently better. It means that they can do what DP's do too. To some people like noglider, DPs were an unecessary invention, but to say that SP brakes are better is just wrong. Too many times in this forum people equate "good enough for me" to "better than."

For me, I feel a difference and prefer DPs.