Classic & Vintage - Carbon review after 30 years on steel

After starting as a mechanic at my LBS I quickly tasted the carbon Kool-Aid. It suddenly became overwhelmingly important to me to try one. Employee discounts made it darn near irresistible. We're a Cannondale dealer so I pro-deal'ed a SuperSix, a Chorus 11 group and some fine Easton wheels. Guess I won't get a paycheck next month..

I have never ridden a road bike of anything but steel. My first real fine ride was a Columbus frame decked out in Super Record, which I bought new for my own earnings in 1981 or so. So here I am, an average rider at age 48 and suddenly set up with something near identical to Nibali's Giro bike. And how is it all, then?

The thing weighs 16.6 lbs as photographed. It's a size 58 and, thank you Peter Denk, it has a near horizontal top tube. Nothing hurts my eye more than a compact frame with STI antlers on the bars. Still, the SuperSix has some pretty loud and garish graphics, all presented in huge contrasts in color. Add to that the dizzying wheel logos and you have the quintessential, headache inducing 'look'.

These are my observations so far:

Putting the bike together required many tools and supplies not available in my otherwise well equipped vintage home shop. Some of these included: Torque wrench, Fiber Grip paste and Torx keys. Weird chain peening tool. Special bearing and cup presses will also be needed when I get around to switching out the dedicated BB30 crank with a Campy. Lots of stuff, including the mid level Chorus group feel plasticky and flimsy. Guess that's where the 16lb total weight comes from.

And the ride? My main issue with riding steel is high speed descents. Being on a big enough bike to suit my 6'2" frame has always been quite unstable. I've never gotten completely out of control thanks to a firm grip on the hoods and the occasional double knee squeeze to stabilize a wobbling top tube. With this here carbon bicycle I descend rock solid and precise. No fear.

The other thing that immediately felt overwhelmingly different is out of saddle climbing or sprinting. Holy smokes, can I go!! Really, it makes you feel 30 pound lighter or 15 years younger, whichever applies best to illustrate the point. My SuperSix makes me want to climb hills all day, and doing so I get to the top faster and less fatigued. This can't all be from loosing 5 pounds of bike weight. Surely stiffness and advanced geo has far more to do with it.

The longest I've ridden so far is 50 miles. I set the bike up with an aggressive fit, so predictably it didn't feel overly relaxing. But no worse than my Merckx which measurements I tried to copy. Flipping the stem, a 5 minute job, could make things more comfy real fast. I have a very nice steel 'rando' style bike for centuries and such. The Cannondale is for going as fast as possible up to 60 or 70 miles of distance.

Conclusion: I'd much rather, by a long stretch, be wrenching on vintage steel and classic componetry, but when it comes to riding the kind of stuff I do, well, carbon might have the edge.

http://i739.photobucket.com/albums/xx40/jan_nikolajsen/ss5.jpg

Nice write up Jan. I am sure it is a blast to ride.

I see you stuck with a Flite and classic bend bars though.

Jake

That was really interesting. Thank you.

Swap the crank and lose the wheel graphics and it will look that much better.

I just happened to lift one of those sitting by the counter at my LBS a couple days ago...3#s sure makes a big difference in feel (my lightest C&V is 19.2#)!

Did you test ride several makes/models or just the Cannondale???

Thanks Jake! I wrote "..pretty loud and garish graphics, all presented in huge contrasts in color.." Your art is like that - but looks good!

thanks for the write up. now i will barf.

top tube still has a decent rise. see attached.
http://www.bikeforums.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=203623&d=1306468690

OK since Jan broke down the barriers I will also admit to finding my modern bike more comfortable, efficient and overall just much more enjoyable to ride than any of my vintage bikes. I have a Giant Defy Advanced. This is a super modern bike with all the buzz words - BB96 bottom bracket, tapered head tube, carbon everything including hybrid carbon aluminum clincher wheels. Full Dura Ace 7900 group. And yes sloping top tube "compact" frame, ergo bars and STI antlers. I love to work on the vintage bikes and have a much deeper emotional attachment to them - I freak out over a scratch on a $2000 vintage bike but throw my $6000 modern bike around like I really don't care - but they simply don't feel as smooth or efficient. Some of it is weight (6-8 lbs lighter depending), some of it is index shifting with brifters, some of it is having twice the number of gears so finding the perfect one to maintain cadence in any situation is easier. I too climb much, much easier on my modern bike. Sorry for the blasphemy.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-swXLmHUY70M/Td8hWsfVySI/AAAAAAAACUI/UEvx_ZyjZQo/s800/DSC00575.JPG

My opinion about your observation that the 5-pound difference in weight cannot make up for the sensation of increased speed is correct. Light/stiff carbon bikes (and stiff aluminum) transmit much more short frequency vibrations (bumps) that would otherwise be deadened by a heavier bike. You can see this by pumping your tires to 70% of max inflation, riding, then do the same thing at 125% of the max pressure. The latter will feel faster, but you will find there is little if any difference in your elapsed speed.

Where you will notice the difference is hills. The difference will be the same if you happen to loose 5 pounds of body mass, but that is not as fun.

Thanks for the review, and it is a magnificent machine.

Great write up.I've been wanting one of these for the longest time....

http://i1128.photobucket.com/albums/m483/MichaelAngelo54/RB_2011_Team_White_LG1.jpg




http://www.raleighusa.com/bikes/road/team-11/

Nice and fair write up - Thanks

By the way what do you think is the max weight for a guy riding a carbon frame...

Nice and fair write up - Thanks

By the way what do you think is the max weight for a guy riding a carbon frame...

That was a very good way to convey the feelings and sensation of riding CF. You need a blog!

I too wonder about max weight on these frames.

Really interesting. I haven't really ridden a carbon frame for any appreciable length of time, but I have to admit that I only occasionally ride the Lemond now that I've got my fancy aluminum CAAD10. I managed to mostly avoid the loud graphics with the BBQ black 1 model:
203637
But I still like the Lemond, especially on windy days- an extra 6 or 7 pounds seems to help me keep the wheels on the ground better.

Please stop mucking up this forum. Can a moderator please move this thread to the 41? :p

I appreciate them for what they are, and long ago I knew we'd get to this point (and beyond) someday. Still, I won't be buying one.

I really appreciate the write-up, Jan. I'm not in the market for another bike, but I would like to ride a new, carbon, go-fast machine. I ride 62cm frames as well and for all the benefits of steel, a 531 DB frame can be pretty noodle-like on a climb or sprint. I guess Rivendell's dual top tubes on their larger frames makes sense. ugly, but it makes sense.

Nice review! and it's true, modern frames climb a lot better, but over the roads here which feature a lot of bricks, tiles or cobbles I prefer the ride of steel. I think the difference is also psychological side to it, when I ride on my modern ride with 20 gears, aero Zonda's with a full kit on it encourages me to ride a lot faster, even though my computer tells me I can reach speeds just as high on my CV rides.

I appreciate them for what they are, and long ago I knew we'd get to this point (and beyond) someday. Still, I won't be buying one.

+1 this pretty much sums up how I feel about them. Would I like to try one out? Sure thing, same way I'd like to test drive a Ferrari. But I don't have a particular desire to own either one. If I did a lot of fast group rides it would probably be different. Or maybe if I did that test ride it would be different, which means the test ride would be a bad idea.

Nice write-up, though, and the bike looks pretty cool. Not as cool as your vintage bikes, of course.

I rode a titanium litespeed for a long time before i got into the vintage stuff. I wouldnt mind owning one, and i'll admit the ride was better in a lot of ways than many of my vintage rides. Just not better enough in a usable way for me that I'd give up spending 1/8th as much on a bike that suits my needs just fine.

Sure, I'd love to ride anything you want to give me to try though.

Thanks guys for not turning this thread ugly. I guess it has the potential to do so.

As I mentioned my biggest disappointment with the current stuff is the components. The SuperSix I got came with Ultegra/FSA, which didn't impress - mushy shifting primarily. The Chorus group shifts crisper, but has a lot of plastic parts, especially on the levers. And the RD is a curious mix of carbon body and stamped steel cage..

I have an alloy Chorus 10 speed group on my LOOK, and while I don't know how much heavier it is, the overall sense of quality traces a direct line back to the NR/SR epoch.

Maybe I should build the true retro roadie: Carbon frame with old school Campy :)

With the tendency to go with aluminum bolts for fastening brake pads, calipers to frame, derailleur to frame, rings to crank, etc, it seems like Torx is preferred over Allen. This is fine, I suppose, but I need to remember to throw in a T-25 in the on-the-road toolkit.

The myth that carbon frames disintegrate on the road in a burst of violent surprise is easy to understand. There just can't be a huge margin for strength on these things, the way they sound when you tap on the tubes. Yet the areas of most stress, headtube, BB, drop outs and so on, seems really beefy.

I wonder how much of the climbing improvement would still be there in a smaller bike where a smaller frame would be, by nature, stiffer. I've ridden a few CF bikes and agree with italuminum, they don't feel very good on city streets.

I do LOVE my Merlin, and it definitely is faster up hills than any of my steel.

Jan...with you on modern Shimano...Campy is so much firmer and crisper.

Question: What goes "thup, thup, thup"?

Answer: The carbon fiber bell. :lol:

..lose the wheel graphics and it will look that much better.

Unfortunately it seems like the logos are either painted or ano'ed on the rim.


Did you test ride several makes/models or just the Cannondale???

Only this one. I'm a compulsively guy with little patience. My buddy has a 58cm SuperSix. I rode it, it felt good.

Thanks guys for not turning this thread ugly. I guess it has the potential to do so.

If your reasoned post and thoughts turned ugly some people should bail on the 181 and just head over to the 41.

I liked reading this...and personally I think your choice of a SuperSix is spot on :) If you wanted garish you could have gone modern Fuji?! :twitchy:

http://www.fujibikes.com/images/bike/altamira_ltd/lowres/2011-FUJI_ALTIMIRA-LTD.jpg

But now of course that you're a Cannondale rider you need to head over to PBK and grab some Liquigas kit :) :

http://www.probikekit.com/us/factfinder/search/result/q/liquigas+Team+Clothing

http://media.probikekit.com/media/catalog/product/cache/18/small_image/115x/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/1/0/106766.jpg

http://media.probikekit.com/media/catalog/product/cache/18/small_image/115x/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/1/0/106769.jpg

I'm actually a great fan of the Liquigas riders, but sporting a full team kit is maybe a bit of stretch for me..

Here's an interesting shot, FWIW:

http://i739.photobucket.com/albums/xx40/jan_nikolajsen/ssm.jpg

I too wonder about max weight on these frames.

I don't know about specific Cannondale frames but it's pretty high on most. So high, in fact some manufacturers don't post limits. Some of the lighest such as Calfee have limits around 190 lbs but those are speciality race type frames.

That is an interesting shot. The top tube on the Eddy is so much longer but the chain stays are close. That leaves for a very step seat stay.

I myself have been tempted to try carbon fiber bikes. But, gees, I have a hard time swallowing the cost of a bike that's roughly equal to the cost of a used car. Besides I'd never be able to get my wife to agree to it.

I know the new bikes are more stiff - especially in the bb shell which would help a guy like me that likes to climb. But, I'm also still young, and strong, enough that I can stay up with the fastest guys on our group rides on my old steel. Because of this the desire to move to a carbon bike quickly fades away. I love riding my steel and would rather not know what it feels like to ride a modern bike - just more temptation. In fact, I got rid of my only bike with brifters last year and haven't missed it that much.

For me it's much more than just riding the latest and greatest. Just yesterday I was talking to my neighbor who's got a brand new Specialized 29'er mtb - it's definitely a really nice bike, but it just didn't do much for me. We both like the LBS owner a lot but when I made the comment I wouldn't buy a new bike from him my neighbor seemed shocked. He asked why and I said because everyone in town has a Specialized (15,000 people and only one shop) and they all look the same. My neighbor is not one to see that side of it (he doesn't even look at a bike going down the road) - for him the bike is just a way to keep a little fitness for his golf game.

Point is I don't see a lot of people talking to each other about their modern bikes. However, throw a vintage ride into the mix and the conversation invariably is about that bike, it's history,what it's like to ride it, etc. Last year on a hill climb I was doing I was riding a long with another guy and was asked all kinds of questions about my Gitane - especially the shifting - because he'd never ridden a bike with downtube shifters. It's fun to educate people on the nuances of a vintage ride.

I would post here, but scozim summed it up too well for me.

My thing is: I'm going to be suffering, sweating, and cursing, no matter what bike I ride. Also, its kind of like messing around with other women...i'm sure there'd be advantages, but at the end of the day, it'll be expensive and hurty, and I'll run into the same problems regardless.

I put in a 57 minute time on a hilly 20 mile time trial course yesterday. I don't need your stinkin' future bike! ;)

To the OP: Is the bike noisy? I watched a triathalon go by the other day, and all of the carbon bikes sounded janky going by. I figured it was just triathletes not maintaining their bikes.

Modern bikes definitely give a better ride and handle better as well. I have a new Cyfac that has a total rigid back end that makes it scoot when you apply power, but soaks up the bumps and is very stable at speed. I love my 2 classics though.

My thing is: I'm going to be suffering, sweating, and cursing, no matter what bike I ride. Also, its kind of like messing around with other women...i'm sure there'd be advantages, but at the end of the day, it'll be expensive and hurty, and I'll run into the same problems regardless.

I put in a 57 minute time on a hilly 20 mile time trial course yesterday. I don't need your stinkin' future bike! ;)

I love that comparison, that's hilarious and totally true. Maybe this explains why I don't date much- I hang around too many bike nerds who get whiplash every time they see a nice bike go by, lust after all the brand-new ones they can't afford, and can't stop upgrading the bikes they just bought. Hmm.
I agree about the modern Shimano stuff also- I'd take Sram Red or Campy in a second over what's on there now.

Blaphemous posts. Move to 41 already!

:D

<------ been wanting a Carbon or Ti for awhile now. :o

That Merckx looks crazy long next to the Cannondale, what are it's dimensions?

Also curious where a vintage Cannondale would fit in all this.

What's the penalty for this sort of blasphemy these days, fellas?

Rack, ducking chair, the Spanish boot? Banishment to the Road subforum?

(Actually, I'm glad you like your new bike. Rock it on out, brother!)

To the OP: Is the bike noisy? I watched a triathalon go by the other day, and all of the carbon bikes sounded janky going by. I figured it was just triathletes not maintaining their bikes.

Several things cause what you hear - the use of Sram which is a noisier drive train, CF wheels with the sound of the deeper aero rims, louder hubs with most pre-built wheels, and the differences in way sound gets transmitted with CF vs Ti, steel and Al.

Jan, a thoughtful post. There is a simple reality here and that is that C&V bikes are just not in the same class as new road racers. The same is true of vintage sports cars. However, I doubt you hear sophisticated car collectors arguing that there vintage car are just as good or better than modern machines. C&V bikes are just a hobby. To think C&V bikes are in the same performance category as new racers is just foolish. It shouldn't matter. That's not what C&V collecting is about.

I have my C&V bikes and my modern bikes. I ride both over the course of putting in 150-200 miles a week. From a conditioning ("workout" or "training") standpoint, it's all about time in the saddle. However, there is no doubt in my mind that my Ti Litespeed and Quintana Roo Santo provide many advantages. At some point, I will get a modern CF bike, maybe a Cervelo.

BTW, for those who just can't stand seeing a modern bike on this forum, please avert your eyes rather than trying to dictate content.

Nice posts Jan! Interesting to get the thoughts of someone who is very familiar with great steel bikes. I'm not going to drop $6k on a bike personally, but nice to see the differences articulated. And I think a very civil response in this thread, which is deserved.

I use the old vs. new cars analogy as well. I've always been a sports car buff and imagined that one day I'd have a stable of them. The reality is that they are expensive and take up a lot of time and space. Not so with world class bikes, which also provide significant health benefits from riding. I do have a red 300ZX though.

I've been on the hunt for a carbon fibre bike with classic lines, I like the C40 a lot, I'd really like a Rabobank or Lampre version.

i do have a red 300zx though.'72 240z ftw!!!!

BTW, for those who just can't stand seeing a modern bike on this forum, please avert your eyes rather than trying to dictate content.

Jan, et al, I hope you realize my suggestion to move this thread to the 41 was only in jest (hence the emoticon). I did enjoy the write up, especially the part about the build & the need for new tools. I've seen your work area and lovely Campagnolo tool kit, so I bet there was also some fun in "having to" buy new tools. It's interesting to hear a C&Ver's take on a modern bike.

I love it when any thread turns into a Merckx content thread!

To the OP: Is the bike noisy? I watched a triathalon go by the other day, and all of the carbon bikes sounded janky going by. I figured it was just triathletes not maintaining their bikes.

In addition, triathletes are racing and they are serious. You won't find many bikes that aren't maintained. Seconds count and the last thing they want is mechanical problems out on the course.

Several things cause what you hear - the use of Sram which is a noisier drive train, CF wheels with the sound of the deeper aero rims, louder hubs with most pre-built wheels, and the differences in way sound gets transmitted with CF vs Ti, steel and Al.
Okay, so we know what causes the noise. But it's still noise.

jan, thank you for the review! I don't recall seeing a similar thread here -- that of comparing C&V steel vs. carbon -- I'd like to see more. I did once ride a CF bike up while on vacation with friends up north, and I enjoyed it very much. It belonged to my friend's son, who is five inches or so shorter than I am, so the bike was never very comfortable for me, but it was light enough to pick up with one finger. It's hilly around Petoskey, so I got an interesting experience with that bike. When I finish selling my fleet of flip bikes, maybe I'll have enough to buy a cool modern race bike. There's a Madone 5.1 at the LBS I like. That Raleigh pictured above is gorgeous.

I use the old vs. new cars analogy as well. I've always been a sports car buff and imagined that one day I'd have a stable of them. The reality is that they are expensive and take up a lot of time and space. Not so with world class bikes, which also provide significant health benefits from riding. I do have a red 300ZX though.

Exactly. I've used the analogy on many occasions. My C&V bike collection is my vintage sports car collection at an infinitesimal fraction of the cost, not to mention the different storage requirements. I do, however, have a 2003 Z4. One sports car at a time is enough. My first was a 1973 Opel GT, like this one:

http://www.jsgill.net/apps/photos/photo?photoid=21878489

What a great little gocart!

I don't know about specific Cannondale frames but it's pretty high on most. So high, in fact some manufacturers don't post limits. Some of the lighest such as Calfee have limits around 190 lbs but those are speciality race type frames.

Does Calfee have a weight limit on their Dragonfly? I have never seen an posted weight limits on their frames.

I've been on the hunt for a carbon fibre bike with classic lines,

Specialized Allez Epic Carbon.

Specialized Allez Epic Carbon.

You should have bought my Giant Cadex CFR II. Giant built the Allez Epic for Specialized.

But, then there is my KG96:

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b384/RCopple/IMG_0013r-3.jpg

Yeah, yeah, yeah -- but how much beer can it carry?

Yeah, yeah, yeah -- but how much beer can it carry?

At last, a practical and pragmatic criteria.