Folding Bikes - Reflections on swapping a Swift for a Brompton (long)

As I mentioned in an earlier post, I've been thinking about selling my Xootr Swift and picking up a used Brompton.

I thought i'd post a couple of thoughts and observation here now that i've had the chance to ride a Brompton on a 25 mile jaunt this weekend. This isn't meant to be an objective review of either bike, but rather a compilation of my impressions and considerations as I've thought about selling Swift and getting a Brompton. Maybe somebody will find it useful.

My motivation for considering the swap:

I'm not doing many rides over 15 miles these days, but bicycles are my main mode of transport. I'm either pulling the kids in a trailer or doing some multi-modal traveling as I go to meetings around town. I was using the Swift for both duties until about a month ago when I noticed that when the trailer was fully loaded with kids and groceries the axle hitch was pulling the rear wheel out of alignment. I could have tried to engineer a different hitch, but hooking the trailer up to my old hybrid was much easier. So, I'm now only using the Swift for running to meetings and other multi-modal travel. It got me to thinking if it wouldn't be a good idea to swap the Swift out for something with a more compact fold. I figured there would be tradeoffs involved, and I was right.

I'm not going to get too much into the details of each bike here. There's plenty out there on the google and in the forums about each. Instead, I'm going to be talking about the differences I found between the bikes that I found significant for my situation. It's also important to note that the Brompton I test rode was an old mk2 circa 1995.

The test ride:

I've used the Swift for almost 4 years now. I've commuted on it, towed kids in a trailer with it, used it for weekend blasts in country roads, packed it in a suitcase and flown to America with it, and pootled with it. I've ridden it in all weathers. (including ice with studded tyres). The longest ride I've done on it was around 50 miles, but the average has probably been in the region of 7-8 miles. It's been a great all-round bike.and Without a doubt, the best thing about it is how adaptable it is to different styles of riding with just a few changes to tyres and handlebar configurations. It certainly doesn't ride much like a folder, more like a mini-velo, I suspect.

I've ridden the Brompton a grand total of 25 miles during a trip that involved taking the train from Glasgow to Edinburgh doing a little city riding, canal paths (paved, dirt, and gravel surfaces), and a couple bits of rolling hills in the countryside. It was a pretty windy day, with a lovely mix of sun and heavy rainshowers. All in all, it was a bit of a sampling of what I'd use the bike for.

The fold:

The Swift is easier. The Brompton is smaller. In use I think the smaller fold of the Brompton trumps the Swift. In particular, on the ride back from Edinburgh to Glasgow, the train was pretty crowded. If I had the Swift with me, I would have had to fold it up and stand with with it at the doors of the train (As I've done a bunch of times in the past). The Brompton fit rather nicely in the luggage rack of the train, so I was able to take a seat. Either would have been fine, and if I was on a full size bike, I wouldn't have gotten on the train at all. The Brompton just allowed the journey to be a bit more pleasurable.

Swift owners (myself included) tend to point out that the Swift's fold while tall, is very thin. If you use folding pedals, this is certainly true and is very handy for hopping on and off shorter train journeys, keeping the bike in hallways, etc. The Brompton isn't that much wider though.

Anyway, I think it's pretty obvious that the Brompton wins the folding contest. No surprise there.

How they ride:

The Swift has a reputation for being a fast, stiff, frame. Indeed it is. It simply rides like a full size bike - and a lovely full size bike at that. The steering is quick, but nothing to extreme. When climbing or mashing out of the saddle, nothing flexes. Very solid bike. Depending on the rest of how the bike is setup, this can contribute to a certain harshness in the ride. Personally, I found with Schwalbe Big Apple tyres, and a sprung Brooks, the Swift was nice and comfy.

The Brompton is a different beast. The cockpit is much smaller and the bars are pretty narrow. The steering was way more responsive than the Swift's already quick handling. No big deal, but I did have to concentrate a bit more to keep the bike in a straight line. Once I got up to a decent speed on a decent with a crosswind the responsiveness of steering was definitely at the front of my mind! The close cockpit meant is was much harder to "tuck" down when riding into the wind. The biggest difference that I found though was when I was climbing. The Brompton's stem and handlebars were noticeably flexy as I was chugging up the hills. I felt it too when taking off from lights, etc. I'm not a very strong or aggressive rider, so the flex isn't a huge issue for me.

When I was riding the Brompton on less than ideal surfaces (canal path strewn with loose stones, wet cobbles, loose gravel) steering got very squirrely. I suspect this mostly due to the narrow, high pressure tyres on the Brompton, combined with the quick steering geometry. I never felt like I was going to come off, but I did feel like I needed to take it nice 'n slow.

The other thing I noticed was that with the rear elastomer, the Brompton tended to 'bounce' a little at higher cadences. I suspect this has more to do with my lack of smoothness in my pedalling technique, but it doesn't happen on the Swift. Again, not a big deal for me.

All in all, I'd say there is nothing in the Swift's ride that reflects that it's a folder. It just rides like a normal bike.

The Brompton rides like, well, a Brompton. It's no bad thing either. In fact for riding in town with traffic it would be my top choice among all the bikes I've ridden, except for one little thing…

Brakes:

The Swift ships with V-brakes. They do a very nice job of stopping the bike in a hurry under most circumstances. I converted mine to drum brakes, and they to stop the bike in a hurry just fine, thank you very much. (Drums have the added advantage of not being affected by weather. Very important in sunny Glasgow).

The brakes on the Brompton ? Gulp. The bike I was riding had an upgrade to dual-pivot brakes a couple of years ago, but I still found myself lacking in confidence of stopping in time once the speed picked up a bit. When it got wet, the situation only got worse. If I were to keep the Brompton, I'd have to look into improving this situation as the first thing on the to-do list. As it stands right now, once the weather got wet, I can see my commute time getting longer as I would have to ride slow enough to keep my confidence in being able to stop in time when a car cuts me off, or a pedestrian walks in front of me.

Overall:

In my mind the Swift is a better performer as a bike. It goes better, climbs better, takes a wider range of tyres (can't put Marathon Winters or Big Apples on a Brompton), and stops MUCH better. It also happens to fold which means you can get on a train when the folks on 'regular' bike are stuck on the platform. It will fit in the boot of almost any car with no drama, and packs in a suitcase for air travel. Beyond it's utility, the thing is just plain fun to ride. If I had only one bike, it would be a Swift. End of story.

But, I don't only own one bike :) My mountain bike style hybrid can take over a lot of the work the Swift had done. Trailer pulling, winter riding, etc. It's a versatile, if uninspired ride. This means my folding bike can be a bit more specialist.

I'm coming to the conclusion that the Brompton is the better overall transportation device. Its small fold means I'd be more likely to take it along in more situations where I might have reconsidered bringing the Swift. More importantly, when I'm riding the Brompton, I'm having just as good a time as I do on the Swift. The fact that I'm going slower doesn't seem to matter too much. I`d probably feel differently if I had a need to ride faster, or if I was riding on loose surfaces a bunch.

Now I just need to sort those brakes :eek:, and I think I'll be happy with the swap.

The flex in the Brompton stem/head tube bothers me. It's slightly more pronounced than in a Dahon Curve with handlebars at the same height from floor despite the Curve stem/handlepost being longer.
Sounds like you've already got the Fibrax brake pad that was part of the 2008 brake improvement. I upgraded recently and now I find the braking OK but still nowhere near as good as V brakes. This is partly to do with the levers, I think, being positioned wrongly (on the M type). One's first two fingers are right next to the lever fulcrum as the grips are so short, so one is forced to use 3 fingers for hard braking. Nothing wrong with that but it's not optimal, and it's a design issue easily rectified. I.e. there's no excuse as far as I can see.

I've changed the gear system as I couldn't live with 3 speeds and I'm not keen on a dual-shifter 6 speed system.

I've found the ride surprisingly comfortable which I think is a lot to do with the frame being fairly flexy. The suspension does bob but it also soaks up bumps really effectively, so no complaints there. I find it pretty much on par with the fat tyre plus thudbuster combination on my Dahon. So I wonder how easy it would be for Brompton to reinforce the necessary areas to mitigate the flex that occurs when pulling on the handlebars whilst retaining flex in the areas that make the ride comfortable, as I'd guess a fair amount of that comes from the top tube as well as head tube and stem.

Weight is a problematic area, I think. The shape of the bike makes it as easy to carry (in most situations) as my Curve SL despite that being 1.5 kg lighter. However, weight savings are made via plastic componentry/poor quality componentry, so upgrades add weight. E.g. the alloy right hand pedal is a piece of junk but extremely light.

Of course I should say with a few improvements it'd be the best bike ever made due to the folding design being so good.

I'm not too worried about weight. As long as I can keep it under 30 lbs, I'll be able to carry it up several flights of stairs which is all I really care about on a folder.

I can't decide if the flex in the handlebar / stem is something that I should worry about. Since Brompton reworked the M-bars, I don't think I've seen anything about failure on these bits. As long as the flex doesn't make it break or wear out prematurely, I can live with it.

I'm curious, what are you using for a gearing system?

I've ended up with something not much different from the older 5 speed Bromptons. My first folder was a Dahon Vitesse D5 with Sturmey Archer X-RF5 hub, which was my first experience of hub gears. I rode that for a couple of years and generally found the gearing very good. When I researched 7 or 8 speed hubs I found they were much heavier and I concluded the S-RF5 to be the best combination of performance and weight available at around 1100 grams. I couldn't really justify the expense of buying a new S-RF5 hub for the Brompton so I decided to use a X-RF5 that I'd picked up on ebay (intended as a spare for the Dahon). It's a bit heavier but still much lighter than 7 or 8 speed hubs. At the moment I'm using it with a thumb shifter. . . I thought I'd give it a go as it's cheap, fits on the M bar and I've heard favourable things about thumb shifters on these forums. Having tried it for a couple of weeks I've concluded that it just doesn't make sense to me, it has none of the immediacy of a grip shift. Perhaps it's not so bad with a 3 speed but with 5 you have to keep a mental note of what gear you're in so that you know where the shifter will be and what sort of hand movement is required. Pointless. So I'll give a trigger shifter a go and if I don't get along with that I'll try to make space on the M bar for a grip / twist shifter.
The problem with my hub is that it's no longer available, Sturmey have switched to a wider-ratio version that's like the AW but with an extra high and low gear. I find the jumps way too large, and the newer shifters aren't compatible with the older hub. So spares are limited and very expensive.

Any pics? The Brompton I'm considering has the old s5/2 hub. I'm considering changing the setup if that hub proves problematic.

None to hand. I'll try to get some. . . it was my very first wheelbuild: I made the mistake of not taking into account where the valve would be and it ended up in an awkward to reach spot. Ooops. But I'm not about to rebuild the wheel again because of that.

I also had a load of grief regarding the axle being too long. . . modifying bromptons can be tricky, I've discovered. But it's all ended well.

Another reason for me sticking with this hub is that I'm now so familiar with it, having gotten my head around the basic SA 3 speed design and this type of 5 speed. I've serviced 3 individual hubs, the oldest of which is probably about 4 years old and judging by the rest of the bike would have had a lot of abuse when I picked it up second-hand. None of the 3 hubs show any significant signs of wear in the internals. A bike shop had told me that they should be serviced and re-greased every 18 months. I think that's nonsense: the internal grease stays put and there's nothing that needs servicing beyond keeping the cable tension and cones/bearings correctly adjusted.

From what I've read it appears Brompton dropped the 5 speed hub because Sturmey Archer went bust. I don't think the 6 speed system is evolutionary, I'd guess that one of the mean reasons for not going back to the 5 speed is that it requires precise cable adjustment, and that may have been too much of a headache for a lot of people.

Thanks this review bendembroski! In my research, these two bikes are my favorite and its no wonder they are hard to find for sale used.

The Brompton front bag mount , with a bunch of stuff packed in my big Touring bag.
actually improves the sense of stability, steering .


I'm curious, what are you using for a gearing system?

[AW3+ Schlumpf mountain drive crank, for a wide range 6 speed,
18 to 80 GI]

Do you reckon there's scope to improve the steering fietsbob, or is the current geometry the best solution given the fold? I read the recent thread on 'trail' and looking at the brompton it appears increasing the trail would move the front wheel up and back whilst folded. I never quite figured out if the front wheel was supposed to touch the ground on the rack-less models.

There is some ways in which the small wheel size makes quick steering just part of the Physics.

VBQ goes on about how front loaded Porteur bikes with 650B wheels handle better
than a regular road bike with the same rack added to it,
once the 50 pounds of the latest Paris Match has to be rushed across town to the Kiosk of the News Agent.

Short trail in a small wheel may be quite a different % if it were scaled up to a bigger wheel.

A Bike Friday Pocket Llama has a high BB , but on rutted rocky trails ,
a bigger wheel diameter will still plough along better than the 406 wheel.

But they wont pack into a suitcase, so there is some tradeoffs
if the trip is starting out from an Airport ..

Brompton's fold is more about the front hinge, in the main tube, than the fork trail.

Do you reckon there's scope to improve the steering fietsbob, or is the current geometry the best solution given the fold? I read the recent thread on 'trail' and looking at the brompton it appears increasing the trail would move the front wheel up and back whilst folded. I never quite figured out if the front wheel was supposed to touch the ground on the rack-less models.

The 349 wheel, without some major engineering, will always result in a very low trail bike. Typically, front load bikes (porteurs) have relatively low trail. So it is not surprising that a Brompton ... or even my NWT ... generally handles better with a front load.

Swift rider very much liking this thread...

+ I'm thinking Pneumatic trail is smaller just because of wheel size.
contact patch of a 1,5" wide 650b vs 349 1 3/8 Brommy/Tikit.
406 Swift/Friday somewhere in between.

The flex in the Brompton stem/head tube bothers me. It's slightly more pronounced than in a Dahon Curve with handlebars at the same height from floor despite the Curve stem/handlepost being longer.
Sounds like you've already got the Fibrax brake pad that was part of the 2008 brake improvement. I upgraded recently and now I find the braking OK but still nowhere near as good as V brakes. This is partly to do with the levers, I think, being positioned wrongly (on the M type). One's first two fingers are right next to the lever fulcrum as the grips are so short, so one is forced to use 3 fingers for hard braking. Nothing wrong with that but it's not optimal, and it's a design issue easily rectified. I.e. there's no excuse as far as I can see.

I've changed the gear system as I couldn't live with 3 speeds and I'm not keen on a dual-shifter 6 speed system.

I've found the ride surprisingly comfortable which I think is a lot to do with the frame being fairly flexy. The suspension does bob but it also soaks up bumps really effectively, so no complaints there. I find it pretty much on par with the fat tyre plus thudbuster combination on my Dahon. So I wonder how easy it would be for Brompton to reinforce the necessary areas to mitigate the flex that occurs when pulling on the handlebars whilst retaining flex in the areas that make the ride comfortable, as I'd guess a fair amount of that comes from the top tube as well as head tube and stem.

Weight is a problematic area, I think. The shape of the bike makes it as easy to carry (in most situations) as my Curve SL despite that being 1.5 kg lighter. However, weight savings are made via plastic componentry/poor quality componentry, so upgrades add weight. E.g. the alloy right hand pedal is a piece of junk but extremely light.

I dont understand your comments on the flex on the Brompton. Perhaps its that i have a S-Type but i do have a Aber Halo riser to increase height therefore should flex more i would think due to leverage and taller stem than M-Type.
I owned 2 Dahons before the local dealer, and in the end Dahon themselves really got beyond rude with me,another story. Perhaps if id known of Thor at the time but again another story.
Anyway Dahons got what i call flex,Brompton dont even come close to that. Even with the stem riser i have little if any flex. And my bars are only prolly about 1" lower than M-Type with the riser installed.

I rode my 20" Dahon today having been riding the Brompton and there's no comparison, the Dahon is much stiffer and therefore a lot sportier. The only reason a 20" Dahon might feel flexy is if the hinges aren't adjusted properly.

I've wondered if the Brompton 2004 hinge change increased stiffness but from what I've heard that's not the case. I don't think the flex is coming from the hinges. I guess I ought to ride another Brompton and also check my bike over carefully. The headset isn't loose. Perhaps there's some play in the frame hinge that translates to the handlebars, though I doubt it.

One thing though, any change of length of stem/handlepost tends to have a very noticeable effect on flex, I've found. So even though the S stem plus aberhallo is only 2 or 3 cm lower than an M bar I'd imagine that'd make a significant difference.

One thing though, any change of length of stem/handlepost tends to have a very noticeable effect on flex, I've found. So even though the S stem plus aberhallo is only 2 or 3 cm lower than an M bar I'd imagine that'd make a significant difference.
Yes i would agree with that above, im thinking alot of it has to do with the style of bars,i actually use the Aber-- to get a little more distance to stretch out a bit but the flat bars sure dont seem very flexy. My bike is a 2009 bought new, and i dont use it daily(prolly twice a week for pooteling) so it doesnt have tons of miles on it could be another reason. Things may not be to worn yet.

.. adding setback to the saddle, with a saddle adapter pin, on my Brompton,
extended seat post, so the arm pressure on the bars is light..
then there is the gearing issue, if it's low enough, you spin up the hills
so you don't have to pull hard against the bars..

Mk2, AW3 + a 2 speed Mountain drive crankset.. it's hilly here..

.. older 2 cable/lever 5 speed narrows gap between 2.3.4,

newer 5 speed adds 1, 5 to the outside range. 2& 4 are the 3/4, 4/3 of the 3 speed.

I've got the same 5 speed hub gear on both bikes, geared more or less the same. I just powered up a particular long hill in middle gear on the Dahon, something I've never done before (usually in gear 1 or 2, spinning away). I guess it's the training I've had from the Brompton and Curve; switching back to the Vitesse everything is that bit quicker and easier.

I think it's time for me to sell the Curve.

All this talk of flex on the Brompton: Before I pull the trigger on buying this thing, th is the flex in the handlebars / stem / whatever going to be a structural problem ? Or, is it just a feel thing? If it's the former, I might reconsider. The latter, and I'll just live with it as one of the compromises I'll make to get the smaller fold.

Good question actually: do the pins/bolts (whatever they're called) in the hinge wear over time at all and require rebuilding?

The stock brompton foam grips might be giving one a sense of flex. I have an M-Type and I do notice some flex on the bar but nothing that bothers me. After replacing the stock foam grips with ergons, it felt like the bars flexed less. Again I was not bothered by the flex even before I replaced the foam grips. Another thing to consider is the "suspension"... the regular suspension block has more give than the firm one.

I would categorize the brompton's ride as springy not flexy... this is in comparison to my aluminum and carbon framed road bikes. My aluminum bike's ride borders on being harsh, the carbon bikes are smooth but firm, the brompton is springy... just right for my commute.

I took the stock grips off straight away, they're terrible. I've got Ergons here too; best grips I've tried.

I found my Dahon Vitesse ludicrously harsh when I first got it and I wasn't really too happy with the ride until I put a massive 20 x 2.15 Big Apple Liteskin on the front plus a Thudbuster ST.

All this talk of flex on the Brompton: Before I pull the trigger on buying this thing, th is the flex in the handlebars / stem / whatever going to be a structural problem ? Or, is it just a feel thing? If it's the former, I might reconsider. The latter, and I'll just live with it as one of the compromises I'll make to get the smaller fold.
They are built like tanks. Im wondering if it has to do with the older models you and chagzuki are talking about that flex. One thing i dont like is flex,id be the first to tell you if my newer model did it.
Perhaps email Brompton and ask about the older model re: flex. Ive found them quite good to chat with about questions. Your not buying it from them so they would have no reason to fib.

I've already asked Brompton about this and they implied that there's no difference with more recent models in this respect. I'd like to test ride another Brompton to see if it might be something peculiar to mine. If there were, for instance, a tiny bit of play in one of the headset cups/bush that'd lead to extra handlebar movement.

If you sit on your bike ddez and alternate between pushing your bars forwards then pulling backwards, surely you see some obvious travel? I can get close to a centimeter, perhaps 8m or so and it's clearly not coming largely from the handlebar as the top of the stem moves also (of course you have to keep your head as still as possible.)

Yea, the join of hinge and tube is sound on both techniques, they are just different.

the current design is adaptable to a torch array jig,
where the Mk2 is a skilled hand done fillet braze.

The 349 wheel, without some major engineering, will always result in a very low trail bike.

Only if your fork is in line with your steering axis (or out in front, as in a rake).

But there's no reason the fork couldn't be pointing down at a steeper angle than the steering axis. You could put practically any trail you'd want on that thing.

Thing is, the Brompton has a significant rake, for (so far as I can tell) absolutely no good reason. The B's trail is 24mm, the tikit's (which still has a very slight rake for no good reason, though quite a bit less) is 28 or 29mm, and I think if you have a perfectly straight fork at that steering angle you'd get about, oh, maybe a 35mm trail, which would be a lot better. Bend the fork backwards and you could easily get up to 60mm or higher.

Two good, or at least defensible positions, for the Brompton's trail:

Small wheels do poorly with potholes; a 'twitchy' ride makes avoiding them easier in practice.

Also, subjectively, the Brompton travels much more smoothly with a loaded front bag. Something about the large moment of intertia over the front wheel. I could see it feeling a bit sluggish if it had a 'normal' responsiveness when unloaded.

Both of these are adaptations to the Brompton's core purpose, urban cycling for the multimodal.

brompton to swift here. don't regret it. my goal with the brompton was to have extremely smooth integration with everything else i do, and every other mode of transit. i never really achieved that, a bike, even folded, still is awkward in many situations - inside stores, tight transit situations, inside libraries. now, with a swift, i just aim to park it outside of wherever i am, and just deal with the few akward moments of having to put it on a train or bus. in exchange, i get a nicer ride, many more options for customizing.

biggest thing i miss about the brompton is the front block mount. frame mounted luggage is vastly superior to stem mounted luggage. i suspect the same can be said for luggage mounted on front risers/rack of the fork

I've already asked Brompton about this and they implied that there's no difference with more recent models in this respect. I'd like to test ride another Brompton to see if it might be something peculiar to mine. If there were, for instance, a tiny bit of play in one of the headset cups/bush that'd lead to extra handlebar movement.

If you sit on your bike ddez and alternate between pushing your bars forwards then pulling backwards, surely you see some obvious travel? I can get close to a centimeter, perhaps 8m or so and it's clearly not coming largely from the handlebar as the top of the stem moves also (of course you have to keep your head as still as possible.)
Okay i did it your way and got about 4m. Perhaps its not so noticeable with the flat bars when riding. But it dont come close to my Speed D 7 i used to have,feels way more solid. Im surprised actually cause no way do i feel it when riding. So now maybe we have the answer it flexes.:eek: I would test ride a S- type if you can though.
Just slightly off topic but speaking of Dahon. I saw my first Speed TR today up close and personal. Dang thats a nice bike and price is good too. Sheesh 24 gears. Too bad i got it in for Dahon.

chagzuki
Just thought of something. My B-17 Brooks is quite far forward,Penta Clip bolt is facing forward as i like my knees directly over the pedals. Thats the reason i have the Aber Halo so i can push it forward to get stretched out. Perhaps thats why i dont feel any flex although i find what little it has as minor even when testing it the way you suggested. Just a after thought.

It probably does have a lot to do with riding position.

Dahon bikes particularly from the mid range upwards are very nice, I think. Good components, nice wheels and rims etc.. But they do have their quirks.

brompton to swift here. don't regret it. my goal with the brompton was to have extremely smooth integration with everything else i do, and every other mode of transit. i never really achieved that, a bike, even folded, still is awkward in many situations - inside stores, tight transit situations, inside libraries. now, with a swift, i just aim to park it outside of wherever i am, and just deal with the few akward moments of having to put it on a train or bus. in exchange, i get a nicer ride, many more options for customizing.

biggest thing i miss about the brompton is the front block mount. frame mounted luggage is vastly superior to stem mounted luggage. i suspect the same can be said for luggage mounted on front risers/rack of the fork

As it happens, I'm looking to do the reverse. We'll see how I get on.

I suspect I may just keep both :p

Would that be the first signs of folderitis? :twitchy:

I tend to agree that having one bicycle, the Swift is very nice. If I had a hybrid mountain bicycle the OP was referring to, the Swift *could* be jettisoned. And I could get something smaller.

But I don't think I could deal with the Bromptons. I need gears, and the odd gear shifters on the Brompton I tried threw me a bit. Also the brakes, the rack-as-a-kickstand feature are not for me. I like that Brompton seems to have good customer service for parts though. Unlike (cough) Dahon (cough). Lastly, compared to the Swift, the limitations with compatible accessories would annoy me. e.g. can't use this accessory, because it interferes with the fold etc etc.

If I really wanted a fold-to-small bicycle for a train, I would consider a Brompton, but also a Birdy, maybe.

Horses for courses.

So far, here's the things I'm less than thrilled about with the Brompton (in relative order):

1.Brakes
2.Proprietary luggage system -- I have to buy all new bags to bring stuff on the bike?
3.It's hard to put things like bottle cages on the things without it messing with the fold
4.Cramped riding position
5.Bit of flex in stem / handlebars

I'll need to address the brakes. The luggage issue will resolved with some workshop bodging. The rest, I'll live with as compromises that come with such a friendly fold.

For what its worth,try the Two Fish water bottle holder mounted to the frame top or to the handle bar stem. Mine is on the stem works fairly good easy to reach and can still be folded. Velcro straps didnt last long so i used hose clamps.

Only if your fork is in line with your steering axis (or out in front, as in a rake).

But there's no reason the fork couldn't be pointing down at a steeper angle than the steering axis. You could put practically any trail you'd want on that thing.

Thing is, the Brompton has a significant rake, for (so far as I can tell) absolutely no good reason. The B's trail is 24mm, the tikit's (which still has a very slight rake for no good reason, though quite a bit less) is 28 or 29mm, and I think if you have a perfectly straight fork at that steering angle you'd get about, oh, maybe a 35mm trail, which would be a lot better. Bend the fork backwards and you could easily get up to 60mm or higher.

I can't recall taking a good look at whether there were any physical restrictions to a backward bending fork. You'd get a shorter wheelbase and the fold would be ... bigger since the handlebar is still facing forward after the folding the main tube. I guess the wheel might hit the right pedal if it were further back. (sorry, doing this from memory since we don't have a Brompton anymore) Anyway, bike handling is sort of a fuzzy discipline. You might be right that more trail would produce a better handling bike.

35 mm of trail would be consistent with most big-wheeled front loaders from memory.

For what its worth,try the Two Fish water bottle holder mounted to the frame top or to the handle bar stem. Mine is on the stem works fairly good easy to reach and can still be folded. Velcro straps didnt last long so i used hose clamps.

I've got a Minorua water bottle mount that I fit on the stem for my test ride. Worked ok, but it stuck out a bit when the bike was folded. I might try the top tube and see if leakage is a problem.

I have a Mk2 bike, the brakes on it, single pivot, were made by CLB of France.
After fitting a set of Kool Stop 'Continental' I have no braking issues,
they Stop me fine.

I don't know what the braking you consider (in) adequate for your
(pro racing like?) speeds,

Given: the dual pivot brakes type, have been adopted
by the race Bike Component Manufacturers
So, would be a significant change, for the better, It would seem.

Perhaps you could update to the newer style brakes if you choose. Ive said it before but worth repeating i can put myself over the bars on my 2009 anytime i want to with little effort. With the original pads still on it i should add.

I happened to find a (UK) shop doing the fibrax pads at a much cheaper price than they retail at as 'Brompton' pads. £10 got me front and rear pads + holders and 2 spare sets of pads.

The brakes have been upgraded to the latest 2009 version. I suspect that mostly an issue of the bike sitting in a shed for two years unused. That, and I'm used to how well the drums work on my Swift.

I just did a food shop with brompton as trolley, which is probably about the 5th time I've done the trolley thing. It was a pleasure today, perhaps partially because I'm a bit better at maneuvering it, partially as the shop was fairly empty so I didn't have to be to vigilant about not bumping into people. Left the shop feeling extremely happy and bonded with the bike.

Flex aside there's something I particularly like about the way it rides too. And I even managed to carry both bike and full basket up a flight of stairs (1st floor flat) without touching the newly painted walls. I'd previously been doing two journeys which rather detracted from the utility of the thing, and was thinking I'd probably have to sew a shoulder strap into the folding basket so I could use two hands to carry the bike. Perhaps I don't need to.

Horses for courses.

So far, here's the things I'm less than thrilled about with the Brompton (in relative order):

1.Brakes
2.Proprietary luggage system -- I have to buy all new bags to bring stuff on the bike?
3.It's hard to put things like bottle cages on the things without it messing with the fold
4.Cramped riding position
5.Bit of flex in stem / handlebars

I'll need to address the brakes. The luggage issue will resolved with some workshop bodging. The rest, I'll live with as compromises that come with such a friendly fold.

1. - minor, just swap with other brakes you prefer
2. - people swear by the brompton pannier bag. costs a lot, but beautifully integrated. alternateively you can by the front frame and figure out a cheap way to strap your exsiting panniers onto the frame. (kind of similar to how the new klickfix frame plus strap works). best option is to get carradice saddle bags, and multiple sqr mounts for your various bags.
3. - minor, lots of work arounds for that. lurk around yahoo brompton talk group
4. - major problem, make sure you figure out a way around this - modifying/customizing handlebars, or whatever you can think of
5. - never noticed this, put some luggage on there, and its stuff. i never biked wihtout at least some luggage

Horses for courses.

So far, here's the things I'm less than thrilled about with the Brompton (in relative order):

1.Brakes
2.Proprietary luggage system -- I have to buy all new bags to bring stuff on the bike?
3.It's hard to put things like bottle cages on the things without it messing with the fold
4.Cramped riding position
5.Bit of flex in stem / handlebars

I'll need to address the brakes. The luggage issue will resolved with some workshop bodging. The rest, I'll live with as compromises that come with such a friendly fold.

Brakes - yes they are not the best. I replaced my front brake lever with Avid SD-7 I adjusted it so max hand force was just before the lever gets to the handlebar so max force and max control. The tight bend in the brake is a big part of the problem. If you only ride Bromptons you adjust via more force.
Luggage is excellent, I cut handle off the stock C-bag frame and replaced with shoelace weaved handle, so the handle does not foul the brake levers. The C-bag is ample space for all I need, e.g. can go camping with it in summer.
Bottle cages, agreed, but you can put a main-tube velcro-strap type thing on and carry bike via saddle, only a 0.6L size though. Unfolded you can put them all over the place. For short rides I have 0.5L in C-bag rear pocket, longer rides I can fit bottles on the seatpost and the front stem. The pannier can carry pouch to top-up or instead of bottle but bottles easier to carrry.
Cramped? Well if you push the saddle all the way back, flip the pentaclip so its front of the saddle, it can go welllll back. The S-bars need a longer model (newer or replacement)
Flexing, well with S-bars there is very little flexing. Are you suffering from some play in the steering or brakes and need to adjust? I also have a Brooks Switft which is stiff saddle but shaped to my contours so comfortable and I replaced with stiffened suspension. I don't find it flexing.
I have S6L-X the older 6-speed with 6 close-gears and I customised front gearing, either a manual-move double-chainring when I'm generally in flat areas or I swap for Mountain Drive Brompton model which self-fits easily, if I need to go through a long undulating route.
I used Ergon grips to compensate for the harsh hand shocks from S-bars that solves the issues but my next modification is a longer S-bars, its cramped on the bars between grips and gear shifters but I have the 2007-model with shorter bar than newer model (48cm vs 51cm).

Thanks for all the suggestions. The bike is truly mine now, so let the tinkering begin!

I suppose that's a call for another thread. I'm not going to try to get the Brompton to ride like my Swift. Instead, I'm going to try to maximise its "Brompton-ness", while minimising the impact on my wallet.

First upgrade: Easy Wheels, or skate wheels.

To be continued...