Fifty Plus (50+) - Pondering Switching Tires

I'm in training for my first century ride soon and suddenly it seems that rolling resistance is starting to get my attention. The Trek 460 currently has the Bontrager Select B 25mm tires. Previous to that I ran the Vredestein Ricorso (not the SE) from '04 when they were lighter and 23mm. From the first ride I could tell the Bontragers were sluggish compared to the smaller width (only 2mm difference) Ricorso. Durability is nice but not the #1 concern in this area.

The Bontragers respond well to high inflation but with a 100psi max I'm wondering when one will bulge and blow:D

So, without breaking my piggy bank what tire would be considered a faster tire/less rolling resistance?

you have a picture of your tire. the only thing I could find had tread. smooth slicks offer less rolling resistance. I use Specialized All Condition Armadillos 700x28. They are narrow enough for me and I inflate them to 115. Even at that pressure they are comfortable but some say they are slow tires. Someday Ill change them but I have them on 3 bikes so I'm gonna wear them out first.

You might as well ask what chain lube you should use. The reason there are so many different tires is because somebody loves every blessed one of them.

My advice is to look around at what tires the people you ride with use. Get the exact same ones. The advantage of doing that is, when you eventually have a flat tire on a group ride, you won't have to endure the lecture about riding on sucky tires.

You might as well ask what chain lube you should use. The reason there are so many different tires is because somebody loves every blessed one of them.

My advice is to look around at what tires the people you ride with use. Get the exact same ones. The advantage of doing that is, when you eventually have a flat tire on a group ride, you won't have to endure the lecture about riding on sucky tires.So you have been schooled in such things :lol:

Hate to say it but there is trade between cost- comfort-long life and rolling resistance.

Two popular performance tyres are Conti 4000s and Mich PR3s. I personally use PR3s but there must be other tyres to use aswell. Performace and less drag are with this type of tyre. Grip and life are there aswell along with puncture resistance. Unfortunately they cost more than a "Standard" tyre. Plenty of on line shops so shop around.

I have the Training wheels set up with Mich Lithions in the same size- 23s- and they work well. No idea about life or puncture resistance but I have noticed that they do not roll as easily. And the reason I went to the PR3s was that the previous tyres- stock as supplied with the bike- were pretty slow. Speed improvement came as soon as I ditched them.

If rolling resistance is what you are after as well as wanting an endurance tire that is tough for a century then all the studies I have read suggest the conti gatorskin is a good tradeoff. I use them on my distance bike. I use the Vittoria open corsa evo cx on my race bike.

http://www.terrymorse.com/bike/imgs/road-tire-rolling-resistance.gif

http://www.terrymorse.com/bike/imgs/road-tire-rolling-resistance.gif

Who'd ever think the Continental Ultra Gator Skin would test lower rolling rsistance than the Continental GP Attack/Force?

If rolling resistance is what you are after as well as wanting an endurance tire that is tough for a century then all the studies I have read suggest the conti gatorskin is a good tradeoff. I use them on my distance bike. I use the Vittoria open corsa evo cx on my race bike.

http://www.terrymorse.com/bike/imgs/road-tire-rolling-resistance.gif

Interesting graph. So if I'm reading that correctly, the Vittoria's you like are of the faster bunch? I'm looking for low rolling resistance....one kick and you're off, plus good coasting when needed. The Bontrager Select B's felt sluggish the first ride I took. Now that I'm in shape I'm curious as to what the quicker tires would do me.

As for budget tires, I've enjoyed training with them. Over the past 7yrs I've only had one flat on the front from over inflation (vredestein ricorso 23's) and one pinch flat on the back from supposed underinflation and hitting an unseen stone.

Who'd ever think the Continental Ultra Gator Skin would test lower rolling rsistance than the Continental GP Attack/Force?

Stranger things have happened, I was surprised too when I saw the data.
It is also why I posted the data - to head off the firestorm before it could build.


Interesting graph. So if I'm reading that correctly, the Vittoria's you like are of the faster bunch? I'm looking for low rolling resistance....one kick and you're off, plus good coasting when needed. The Bontrager Select B's felt sluggish the first ride I took. Now that I'm in shape I'm curious as to what the quicker tires would do me.

As for budget tires, I've enjoyed training with them. Over the past 7yrs I've only had one flat on the front from over inflation (vredestein ricorso 23's) and one pinch flat on the back from supposed underinflation and hitting an unseen stone.

The way you read the graph is that for a given speed (18.6MPH) with an 85kg load the number of watts required to overcome the rolling resistance of the tire is listed in the x-axis. So yes, the Vittorias tested lower rolling resistance. They are expensive and don't wear well but they are fairly tough. The Gatorskins have more rolling resistance but wear much better, easier to find and at a better price.

Now with that said - you will see the difference only at speed, not when you are "kicking off", there you might feel some difference with a lighter tire but rolling resistance will have little effect. You have to be rolling before there is resistance. If you want a tire the accelerates quickly you should consider weight, tubulars come to mind, along with the lightest wheels you can find. That will have more of an impact on your ability to accelerate than anything else, but remember - if you are reducing wheel weight to accelerate, you will also loose speed faster once you stop driving the bike, Sir Isaac givith and takith away.

Another factor to consider, the overall losses from the tire go up linear with speed, the losses due to wind resistance go up as the velocity cubed. So at high speeds you could go to a really low rolling resistance tire but only see a small change in speed. For a racer it matters, IMHO for the average guy like us, it is better to get that tire that provides a comfortable ride, resists flats and wears well.

Here is another data set:

http://www.biketechreview.com/tires_old/images/AFM_tire_testing_rev9.pdf

It includes tubulars, so you have to filter through the list to find the good clinchers. Clinchers actually roll really well, if you use latex tubes, it's just that the whole package of wheel, tube and tire is much heavier than a tubular setup.

In my area, Conti GP400S (black chili) are really popular, and they are as "BF approved" as any tire. They come in #14 on the biketechreview list, which is very respectable, and ahead of many pure racing tires. Many people race on them. I've found them to be just as flat resistant as Gatorskins (meaning both tires will flat if you hit that goathead or roofing nail), and they perform better.

Here is another data set:

http://www.biketechreview.com/tires_old/images/AFM_tire_testing_rev9.pdf

It includes tubulars, so you have to filter through the list to find the good clinchers. Clinchers actually roll really well, if you use latex tubes, it's just that the whole package of wheel, tube and tire is much heavier than a tubular setup.

In my area, Conti GP400S (black chili) are really popular, and they are as "BF approved" as any tire. They come in #14 on the biketechreview list, which is very respectable, and ahead of many pure racing tires. Many people race on them. I've found them to be just as flat resistant as Gatorskins (meaning both tires will flat if you hit that goathead or roofing nail), and they perform better.

Retro Grouch's advice is sound, ride what the other people are riding. There is no data in either data set to suggest the GP400S is better or worse than the Gatorskin. Without test data it is just conjecture. However the GP400s are well respected. I think the real point is that little will be gained unless you attack the whole wheel/tire/tube package.

I think you are agonizing too much over tire choice, since air resistance is a far greater concern. In 1972 I did a 12:18 double century on cotton tubulars, but I suspect any good modern clincher would do just as well now.

Kenda C2C....really

cyril

I did my first century by doing laps around the Morgul Bismark on a mtn bike with 1.9" tires.
I'm detecting OCD here.:p

There is no data in either data set to suggest the GP400S is better or worse than the Gatorskin.

Neither test had both tires, but they are made of different compounds, and I guarantee you the GP's handle better. Personal experience -does- count, which is one of the reason road tests include personal impressions. Conti knows a thing or two about their own tires, and I'm sure they test them, since Conti has a test facility that is used by bike mag's. Conti sells the 4000 as a racing tire. They sell the Gator as a training tire. And FWIW, the Gator is 180 tpi; the 4000 is 330.

Azt - ride what you like, that's why we have choices. My everyday tire is the ultra gatorskin and will remain so, it serves me well and I did a fast century on them and my old steel bike last week. On my Tarmac I have the Vittorias, they also serve me well. The extra small % I get from them as well as the 2 lb advantage in overall weight and the stiffness of the frame make it just a little easier to stay with a fast pack or climb a big hill. It really is about the engine, a pro racer would kick our butts on a Wallymart bike.

I'm in training for my first century ride soon and suddenly it seems that rolling resistance is starting to get my attention.

I bought a pair of Michelin Pro3 Race tires, 25mm, for my first century and I was happy with the choice. If you are well trained for the effort the tires you use are not going to prevent you from finishing. On the other hand, as another newbie, I certainly understand the fear that your training will not be enough and that a few percent difference in anything might be the difference between finishing and giving up. It's exactly why I bought the Michelins. The graph presented here is out of date but probably still a reasonable guide. If you don't care for the Michelins the Continental GP4000S or one of the highly rated Vittorias are also good choices. I had decided on the Contis actually but the LBS owner told me that the Michelins seem to hold up to the local road hazards better so I went with them. My rims are 18mm across the bead hooks and the 25mm Michelins plump up to 28mm on them so I was quite happy since 28mm is as narrow a tire as I normally run. I'd have bought wider tires still but tire makers don't build their wide tires on their high efficiency carcasses. This century was on paved country roads in good condition, mostly, so I didn't really need anything wider to ride it.

The thing that nearly defeated me was the heat, I trained in 50 degree weather and then century day was 85. I came very close to bailing out so it is not inconceivable that the efficient tires were a significant factor in allowing me to complete the course. Of course today it is 50 degrees again and I could have run 100 miles today on tires made from bailing twine....

Ken

Pro3's (23mm) with latex tubes roll amazingly well, and are very supple. They actually feel squiggly after not having ridden them for a while. 4000s's (23mm) are terrific, all around tires. Gator Skins (25mm) are total crap, but Gator Hardshells (28mm) actually have a pretty nice road feel for a high durability tire. Continental City Rides (32mm) have a decent ride for such a large tire and are very resistant to debris and bad road surfaces. All of this is just my opinion, of course.

Hate to say it but there is trade between cost- comfort-long life and rolling resistance.

Two popular performance tyres are Conti 4000s and Mich PR3s. I personally use PR3s but there must be other tyres to use aswell. Performace and less drag are with this type of tyre. Grip and life are there aswell along with puncture resistance. Unfortunately they cost more than a "Standard" tyre. Plenty of on line shops so shop around.

I have the Training wheels set up with Mich Lithions in the same size- 23s- and they work well. No idea about life or puncture resistance but I have noticed that they do not roll as easily. And the reason I went to the PR3s was that the previous tyres- stock as supplied with the bike- were pretty slow. Speed improvement came as soon as I ditched them.

The trade off is very obvious when looking at the graph posted by cyclinfool and running to google to check the piles of reviews on each tire.

So far, I like what I've read about the Michelin Krilion Carbon tires. Still a low rolling resistance, decent price, good durability and wear. Similar to what has been said, there is no perfect tire for everybody and everybody has their perfect tire.

I may well ride out the summer on the Bontrager "B"s if the squaring off doesnt get out of hand. The century ride is only a few weeks out from now. I am totally confident in finishing the ride but as the time approaches I love to tweak my Trek. :D

Guys, your info is spot on and appreciated.

Pro3's (23mm) with latex tubes roll amazingly well, and are very supple. They actually feel squiggly after not having ridden them for a while. 4000s's (23mm) are terrific, all around tires. Gator Skins (25mm) are total crap, but Gator Hardshells (28mm) actually have a pretty nice road feel for a high durability tire. Continental City Rides (32mm) have a decent ride for such a large tire and are very resistant to debris and bad road surfaces. All of this is just my opinion, of course.

Do you still use latex tubes?

Pro3's (23mm) with latex tubes roll amazingly well, and are very supple. They actually feel squiggly after not having ridden them for a while. 4000s's (23mm) are terrific, all around tires. IMHO (or my experience is that) Gator Skins (25mm) are total crap, but Gator Hardshells (28mm) actually have a pretty nice road feel for a high durability tire. Continental City Rides (32mm) have a decent ride for such a large tire and are very resistant to debris and bad road surfaces. All of this is just my opinion, of course.

Since you have no data I felt compelled to fixed it for you.

I've been running Conti ultra Gatorskins on my Gunnar for a long time now. When you hate flatting as much as I do, and when you're dealing with the lovely roads of Massachusetts,* a set of these is money well spent.

( * Cynicism fully intended.)

It really is about the engine, a pro racer would kick our butts on a Wallymart bike.

Now CF, don't go destroying our fantasies. We need to believe that with just one more upgrade, we'll be on a tour team.

Now CF, don't go destroying our fantasies. We need to believe that with just one more upgrade, we'll be on a tour team.

Yup. "If at first you don't succeed, spend more money."

Yup. "If at first you don't succeed, spend more money."

Agreed.
Average speed is directly proportional to how much money you spend on your bike.

Agreed.
Average speed is directly proportional to how much money you spend on your bike.

I don't know, PEDs might be more cost effective, LOL. Anyway, Whatever changes you make for your big ride, do them well in advance of the ride, no last minute changes...only leads to trouble. Voice of experience.

Analysis paralysis. Get tires you like and ride hard.

About your current tires and their 100 lb max inflation. I recall being told that the suggested inflation is half the pressure that causes the tire to blow off of the rim. If that is true, you can probably add about 10 or 20 lbs of pressure to your current tires, safely.

I recall seeing graphs of rolling resistance in tires. The rolling resistance approaches a limit at about 90 lbs of pressure. As you add more pressure, you really do not affect rolling resitance much. Of course, it depends on how heavy the weight on the tire is. A really heavy rider will require more inflation of his tire to avoid pinch flats than a light weight. I would think that a heavy load would also deform the tire more and cause more rolling resistance than a light load.

As for tires, I used to ride continentals and the type of tire I used was discontinued. I am still searching for a replacement and just go by guess and by gosh.

About your current tires and their 100 lb max inflation. I recall being told that the suggested inflation is half the pressure that causes the tire to blow off of the rim. If that is true, you can probably add about 10 or 20 lbs of pressure to your current tires, safely.

I keep hearing that but I don't think it's true. Rims have different widths and even different (non hook bead) designs. I don't see how a single max pressure recommendation could apply to every possibility. I'm thinking there must be a standard rim that tire companies use for testing but I don't know how to find out what it might be.

The first time I heard that was probably 40 years ago. It definitely wasn't true back then. Some gas stations even had signs posted warning bike riders not to use the gas station air hose due to frequent blow outs.

Agreed.
Average speed is directly proportional to how much money you spend on your bike.

Close - perceived average speed is directly proportional to the money spent. We all know that if measurements don't match perception we should report how we feel and stop measuring things - it must be right, why else would we have spent all that money. :lol:

Analysis paralysis. Get tires you like and ride hard.

+1

Since you have no data I felt compelled to fixed it for you.

Put on your glasses and re-read my post. Especially the last sentence.

Putz.

Do you still use latex tubes?

Yes. Michelin Aircomps. Why to you say "still"?

The Pro3's with Aircomp tubes are mounted on Reynolds Assault med-deep carbon rims. These wheels are on the bike I use for flat/rolling roads for fast group rides.

In general, I've moved to larger volume tires for daily rides. Most roads are getting worse, not better and I view them as an additional safety factor.

And, once again, for cyclinfool, "All of this is just my opinion, of course.". :)

Ah! It's time to change my signature line to a legal disclaimer for cyclinfool. Then again, no. I like the one I have from the Libyan Deputy Foreign Minister Khaled Kaim.

But if you use Pro3's with Michelin Aircomps, you too will see how your tires can be swift and quick and fast. And subject to pinch flats and air loss, but that's probably too much information.

I recall seeing graphs of rolling resistance in tires. The rolling resistance approaches a limit at about 90 lbs of pressure. As you add more pressure, you really do not affect rolling resitance much.

This seemed counter-intuitive until I thought about it and looked up a few references but I'm convinced you're right. Thanks for mentioning it. I'm guessing that the particular pressure beyond which there is little or no improvement in rolling resistance might be more or less than exactly 90 psi depending on the tire material, tire size and the rim width.

Yes. Michelin Aircomps. Why to you say "still"?The Pro3's with Aircomp tubes are mounted on Reynolds Assault med-deep carbon rims. These wheels are on the bike I use for flat/rolling roads for fast group rides.

In general, I've moved to larger volume tires for daily rides. Most roads are getting worse, not better and I view them as an additional safety factor.

And, once again, for cyclinfool, "All of this is just my opinion, of course.". :)

Ah! It's time to change my signature line to a legal disclaimer for cyclinfool. Then again, no. I like the one I have from the Libyan Deputy Foreign Minister Khaled Kaim.

But if you use Pro3's with Michelin Aircomps, you too will see how your tires can be swift and quick and fast. And subject to pinch flats and air loss, but that's probably too much information.

Was curious if you were having a good experience with them. I'd read the same on tire reviews where people mentioned the improvement using latex tubes. Thanx for the good report, I may switch. The air loss is typical of these high pressure tires and the pinch flats.....pffft, they just happen sometimes.

Analysis paralysis. Get tires you like and ride hard.

I'm riding hard and still looking for tire I like....hows that for getting the order right? :lol:

I think you are agonizing too much over tire choice, since air resistance is a far greater concern. In 1972 I did a 12:18 double century on cotton tubulars, but I suspect any good modern clincher would do just as well now.

Now if I was hesitant of any kind of agony I wouldnt be riding.

but that's a subjective thing altogether

Was curious if you were having a good experience with them. I'd read the same on tire reviews where people mentioned the improvement using latex tubes. Thanx for the good report, I may switch. The air loss is typical of these high pressure tires and the pinch flats.....pffft, they just happen sometimes.

They do ride lovely.

If rolling resistance is what you are after as well as wanting an endurance tire that is tough for a century then all the studies I have read suggest the conti gatorskin is a good tradeoff. I use them on my distance bike. I use the Vittoria open corsa evo cx on my race bike.

http://www.terrymorse.com/bike/imgs/road-tire-rolling-resistance.gifJust wanted to say thank you for providing the graph. It helped me compare tire brands and performance. I've decided to switch over to Michelin Krylion Carbon tires that are on the upper part of that comparison for rolling resistance. I'll also be trying latex tubes for the first time. Should be a good combo.

Presently, I've picked up two small punctures the size of a dull pencil lead in the outer layer of tread on the back tire (Bontrager "B" 25mm) where I can see the cords. Time to make the switch. Bontragers have served me well in the durability department but now I'd like to get some of the performance back that I had with the Ricorso 23's.

I was riding Conti Ultra Sports on both my rides and switched them both to Michelin Pro 3's and love how smooth they ride and plus saving around a 1/2 pound on tire weight.

Pick them up off of ebay, a lot cheaper for a pair. They do come in some great colors..
http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-PAIR-MICHELIN-PRO-RACE-3-BIKE-TIRES-700X23C-TIRE-/370519610594?pt=Cycling_Parts_Accessories&hash=item5644b094e2

I did my first (and only) century on a hybrid Bianchi with Ritchey Tom Slicks. I believe they were 700x32. At that time I biked 2000 mi a year on 32s and appreciated the comfort. When I switched to a road bike and 28s they were "ok" but I soon went back to a hybrid and 32s for the added comfort.

My point is that you can do a century with just about anything. If I did one today I would choose my current Vittoria Randonner Pro 700x32s, because I would want to be comfortable (and flatproof) for that whole grueling day on the bike. Comfort is more important to me than speed. I'd rather take extra time to complete the ride and finish it in comfort.

For Getupand go----I did my first 100 miler on Aggressive knobblies on a mountain bike. Wasn't comfortable though but that was probably due to it being offroad.

Long rides now and I don't need comfort-I get that from bike set up- but the thing that will ruin such a ride for me would be it taking excessive energy away from me. For that reason I use the best rolling tyres I can get and they are Mich PR3s in 23. Too many road rides on tyres that do not roll well and I have learnt my lesson.

And even on the offroad rides- there are tyres that roll better than others and still give grip. For that reason the long rides get the 1.8s put on instead of the 2.1s.

Just remembert one very important fact. While skinney ultra high pressure tires do have a lesser amount of rolling resistance, they are prone to snake bite flats. A slightly larger tire that holds more air and can absorb a few more pothole edges will get you to the end of your ride. Slightly larger tires contain more air and may also get you to the end of your ride without having to stop and refill.

Just remembert one very important fact. While skinney ultra high pressure tires do have a lesser amount of rolling resistance, they are prone to snake bite flats. A slightly larger tire that holds more air and can absorb a few more pothole edges will get you to the end of your ride. Slightly larger tires contain more air and may also get you to the end of your ride without having to stop and refill.

Now you've got me wondering what kind of marathon rides you're doing where you'd have to stop mid-ride and top off the air pressure in your tires.

Now you've got me wondering what kind of marathon rides you're doing where you'd have to stop mid-ride and top off the air pressure in your tires.No kidding. :lol: