Fifty Plus (50+) - learning to pedal circles without thinking about it....

Of all the things I have worked on to try to increase my speed and power- interval training, hill repeats, dialing in my bike fit, and so on - the one that really makes a really big difference is making sure I am generating power throughout the pedal stroke.

When I concentrate on my pedaling technique - making sure to push forward over the top and pull back at the bottom - there is a noticeable increase in speed without a large increase in perceived effort. My guess is it amounts to almost 2 MPH at the same effort at modest speeds (e.g., 21 MPH vs. 19). Maybe it's a little less.

The trouble is that it only happens when I concentrate on it. If I am not paying attention, I revert to pedaling squares (power only on the up and down strokes) or even worse, mashing (power only on the down strokes).

Yeah, I know that it takes time and that I just have to keep concentrating on the technique until it becomes instinctive. But it seems like it's taking a long time (almost a year?)

People have recommended doing single leg drills to help the process, but they feel totally unnatural to me. I've done them (admittedly not too much), but then when I'm back to two legs, I don't feel like it's changed my unconscious pedaling style.

So for those of you who have already developed perfect pedaling form, how long did it take?

When do you start doing squares, or mashing ? When climbing hills ? When riding into a headwind ? There's usually something that triggers that response. I know that I'll start doing things like that if my cadence starts slowing down which in my case means that I'm in the wrong gear.

Of all the things I have worked on to try to increase my speed and power- interval training, hill repeats, dialing in my bike fit, and so on - the one that really makes a really big difference is making sure I am generating power throughout the pedal stroke.

When I concentrate on my pedaling technique - making sure to push forward over the top and pull back at the bottom - there is a noticeable increase in speed without a large increase in perceived effort. My guess is it amounts to almost 2 MPH at the same effort at modest speeds (e.g., 21 MPH vs. 19). Maybe it's a little less.

The trouble is that it only happens when I concentrate on it. If I am not paying attention, I revert to pedaling squares (power only on the up and down strokes) or even worse, mashing (power only on the down strokes).

Yeah, I know that it takes time and that I just have to keep concentrating on the technique until it becomes instinctive. But it seems like it's taking a long time (almost a year?)

People have recommended doing single leg drills to help the process, but they feel totally unnatural to me. I've done them (admittedly not too much), but then when I'm back to two legs, I don't feel like it's changed my unconscious pedaling style.

So for those of you who have already developed perfect pedaling form, how long did it take?

I am not there yet.;)

When do you start doing squares, or mashing ? When climbing hills ? When riding into a headwind ? There's usually something that triggers that response. I know that I'll start doing things like that if my cadence starts slowing down which in my case means that I'm in the wrong gear.

No, that's not it. When I start laboring up a hill, that's when I concentrate on form. It's when I'm tooling along in the flats without much need for extra power that I'll realize that I'm pedaling squares. On a group ride I'll be doing fine somewhere in the pack and my form will stink. then I find myself at the front where I have to concentrate on my speed and my form improves. I guess it's ok in some ways - I have better form when I need the power - but unless I"m thinking about it, my form sucks.

I am not there yet.;)

OK, so I worded that poorly. I"m sure I'd kill to have your imperfect form.:lol:

Pedaling in circles is the main thing I've been concentrating on at RtR-and I think big round circles for slower cadences.

I also think about the dark beer at the finish!

Rollers, overgear intervals and high cadence intervals will help in training the body to utilize the whole stroke. I've noticed myself when I'm doing TT intervals that if I concentrate on putting power into the whole pedal stroke the wattage jumps up considerably along with the speed. Lately I keep having to remind myself on rides to pedal in circles where a few months, after the indoor training season ago, I pedaled in circles as second nature.

It's when I'm tooling along in the flats without much need for extra power that I'll realize that I'm pedaling squares. On a group ride I'll be doing fine somewhere in the pack and my form will stink. then I find myself at the front where I have to concentrate on my speed and my form improves. .

When riding in the pack your attention is on keeping position so it's not surprising that your form starts to change. It sounds like you're doing the right thing when it counts. I do the same thing as you do when I'm on the flats, especially if I'm pedaling at my usual 90 rpm and I'm not working very hard at 16-18mph . My mind will start to wander and I'll forget about pedaling circles. If I need to generate more power then I have to focus and then I start making an effort to get back in form. I find that shifting over to the big chainring and going at a higher gear that I normally ride in forces me to focus on my form since I have work harder to maintain the same cadence.

Rollers, overgear intervals and high cadence intervals will help in training the body to utilize the whole stroke. I've noticed myself when I'm doing TT intervals that if I concentrate on putting power into the whole pedal stroke the wattage jumps up considerably along with the speed. Lately I keep having to remind myself on rides to pedal in circles where a few months, after the indoor training season ago, I pedaled in circles as second nature.

+1 and... Pedaling drills... Here is a workout. 100 5 min, 105 4 min, 110 3 min, 115 2 min, 120 1 min, 130 30 sec, 140 30 sec repeat. This drill is best done on rollers or a trainer with minimal resistance. The visual I use is to keep my foot in the top of the shoe. When riding in a group or racing, I use 90 cadence off the front and 100 sitting in. The idea is to use the high cadence to clear lactic acid and the 90 for better muscle efficiency.

I find that after a motor pacing session at the track at high cadence, the next day on the road, I feel like anything is possible.

Not that I'm necessarily one to go by, when I'm in the flats and I've got it going right, I feel like my feet are following the pedals around instead me pushing them.
I glide almost effortlessly. It helps me to be in a bigger gear (now that I can sustain them... well, I *could* anyway. Now, I doubt it will be that easy)

Form is something you have to think about a lot before it becomes natural. I do exactly as others do, and it is when climbing (and not necessarily at 4mph) that I concentrate the most. But I am getting a bit better at it on the flats and downhills.

I'm very new to clippless pedals (3 months) so I almost never have good form for any length of time. Reading this I see it's going to take me a good bit of time to get anywhere near where I want to be as far as form and speed. I have noticed that when I concentrate on my stroke I do increase my speed. The key I guess is is like in anything else, practice and persistence.

The thing that has helped me the most is spin ups on my rollers. That and the recent purchase of a computer with cadence has been very helpful. On the rollers I've been able to hit 105 rpm's without a lot of bouncing but on the road I'm pretty much in the 75-85 rpm range when cruising. Hills are really tough for me generally and depending on the grade I'm generally in the 40-65 rpm range. I have no idea if this is good or bad it's just what I do.

The thing that has helped me the most is spin ups on my rollers. That and the recent purchase of a computer with cadence has been very helpful. On the rollers I've been able to hit 105 rpm's without a lot of bouncing but on the road I'm pretty much in the 75-85 rpm range when cruising. Hills are really tough for me generally and depending on the grade I'm generally in the 40-65 rpm range. I have no idea if this is good or bad it's just what I do.

Generally cadences on rollers are not a good measure of what you'll do on the road. As to your road cadences, aim for higher - 90 RPM on the flats. Consider gearing down one. On hills, you do what you can do, but higher is still better except for the steep hills that get you out of the saddle.

Take a spin class, is easier and safer to concentrate on your pedaling style than when riding on the road.
I have found that pedaling circles isn't all it's cracked up to be. Try this; at the bottom of the stroke, act like your trying to scrape something off the bottom of your shoe, then drive your knee upwards into the handle bar. I have found that give more power, and one you get the muscle memory, more natural than trying to get your feet to move in a circle. I'ts more noticable when climbing.

Great discussion everyone. Like Minnman, when pedaling correctly, the speed goes up with little additional perceived effort. The pyramid drills Hermes suggests seem like a very good idea as your attention is brought directly to the pedal stroke, and brought to the pedal stroke again at each cadence change.

You should check out what they are using on tour to increase power http://www.rotorbikeusa.com/

The way I look at it is the pedals(crank) go(es) in a circle. You don't have a choice....

As a side note, I've found that in order to pedal circles one's seat height must be spot on. Too, high and your hips rock too much. Too low and you don't get the full use of muscles that make turning circles easier.

You should check out what they are using on tour to increase power http://www.rotorbikeusa.com/

How is this different from Shimano's Biopace crankset from years ago?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biopace

Easy way to see if you are pedalling in circles-Go back to platform pedals.

I cannot ride unless I am clipped in as I find that I pull the foot off the pedal at around the 8.0'clock position on platforms.

How is this different from Shimano's Biopace crankset from years ago?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biopace

Both Biopace and O Symetrics are fixed systems. Rotor is a "variable gear" chain ring.

http://www.rotorbikeusa.com/images/science/pdf/qring_test_new_univ_valladolid.pdf

Both Biopace and O Symetrics are fixed systems. Rotor is a "variable gear" chain ring.

http://www.rotorbikeusa.com/images/science/pdf/qring_test_new_univ_valladolid.pdf

Not sure I know what that means.

Take a spin class, is easier and safer to concentrate on your pedaling style than when riding on the road.
I have found that pedaling circles isn't all it's cracked up to be. Try this; at the bottom of the stroke, act like your trying to scrape something off the bottom of your shoe, then drive your knee upwards into the handle bar. I have found that give more power, and one you get the muscle memory, more natural than trying to get your feet to move in a circle. I'ts more noticable when climbing.
Yes. In my book (but obviously not others') it is the traditional form of ankling... the version that has British cycling origins.

If you really want to cultivate it, pedal one-legged for 20 or so revolutions (take the other foot off the pedal entirely), then pedal the other leg for 20 or so revolutions. It has to be done on a flat road or path. It really tells you in an instant whether the effort you are applying to the pedals is in fact circular or has a flat spot.

As your strength and technique improve, up the ante with pedal strokes by 5 each set.

I find spin class on a spinning bike helps dramatically.
I would imagine a fixie would do the same thing, you need to pedal w/o the freehub.

I think you are on the right track. Thinking about circles or about wiping mud off the bottom of the shoes or whatever mental trick you use, it's all about developing a smooth spin and transferring power as evenly as possible through the full circle of pedaling. The longer you do it, the more natural it will become. But even after many years of pedaling circles, I still find a boost in power by concentrating on smooth pedaling at key times like while climbing or when accelerating on flats.

fixed gear--it forces the circles. It also teaches you how cadence can vary speed.

train safe-

And yes you can pedal in circles with platforms and pins - they grip beautifully.

I think fixed gear drills may be a very good idea. I went for a short ride on the bike path today and at one point was passed by a teen aged boy furiously pedaling a BMX. I was still accelerating at a modest rate but was surprised at his speed. Less than a minute later, with the help of a bit of tail wind, I was rolling at 21 mph and passed him back. After an intersection stop, while accellerating again, he evedently was not going to take being passed by an old guy, and came by again, this time his feet were a blur. Then he popped a wheelie on his front wheel. Watching his feet reminded me of a Road Runner cartoon where Wiley Coyote's feet are whirling around in a blur while you hear a jet engine sound spooling up. To learn to spin fast, get a fixed gear bike.

On today's ride while riding up some 2-3% grades I would ride no handed and concentrate on the full pedal stroke. I takes a nice round pedal stroke and some bike handling skills but is not that difficult once started. Note, that is pedaling 201 so be sure that you have completed pedaling 101 first.

A. J. in pedaling 101 I'm working on this very drill except for maintaining one hand on the bar. No hands will take somewhat longer.

Riding no hands will depend very much on the geometry of your bike and in particular, the fork. Not all bikes will enable you to ride no-hands unless at very high speed going downhill.

Anyone who wants to improve their circles -- do the one-foot pedalling exercise.

The thing I have found about fixed gear is that it teaches you to keep your hips level and your upper torso from flopping about. This means you are concentrating most on using your legs to move the pedals.

I pulled a 30 miler yesterday with my team in New Jersey yesterday. I tried to think - "pedaling in circles" and did pretty well most of the time. I'm getting faster, actually lead the "C" group for a few miles. Which felt really good, considering the last time I rode with these folks I was bring up the rear.
Pedaling in circles definitely helps. Now the question is how long will it take for pedaling in circles to come naturally for me? i's assuming years.

I could not learn to "pedal in circles" but responded to "scrape imaginary but sticky mud."

Like you I lose form but after five or six years that's relatively infrequent.

fixed gear--it forces the circles. It also teaches you how cadence can vary speed.

train safe-

+1 this.

If you want to improve your pedaling technique, set up a fixed gear bike and ride it exclusively for several weeks. When you go back to your regular bike you WILL see a difference.

To pedal at high cadence it is necessary to pedal in circles. To pedal in circles check out this video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVbwngNoHm0&feature=player_embedded

Riding on rollers no-handed requires a near perfect pedal stroke that can transfer to riding on the road. I got there this past winter. Here is a brief annimated video which may help.;) http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/8195197/riding-the-rollers

I think you are on the right track. Thinking about circles or about wiping mud off the bottom of the shoes or whatever mental trick you use, it's all about developing a smooth spin and transferring power as evenly as possible through the full circle of pedaling....
One "mental trick" I found useful was from a post to a Road Forum thread that the force applied to the pedal is at 90 degrees to the crankarm. As I understand that, you only push directly downwards (and pull directly upwards) when the cranks are at 3 and 9 o'clock. At the 12 o'clock position you are pulling directly backwards in the mud-scraping action, and at 6 o'clock you are pushing directly forward. So the direction of applied force is continuously changing through the cycle to maintain that 90 degree relation to the crankarm. It took some conscious thought to apply the principle, but by George, I think I've got it. :D

I sure hope your home environment is more...umm, supportive. Now that you can ride rollers no hands, your next assignment, should you choose to accept it, would be to juggle three tennis balls simultaneously. Video proof required.

Riding on rollers no-handed requires a near perfect pedal stroke that can transfer to riding on the road. I got there this past winter. Here is a brief annimated video which may help.;) http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/8195197/riding-the-rollers

Excellent video. I am totally impressed with those who can ride rollers with no hands.

Excellent video. I am totally impressed with those who can ride rollers with no hands.

Assuming the bike is set up correctly and the rider has reached some level of confidence on rollers, it's actually easier to ride no hands than with hands on the bars. Input from the hands tends to twitch the bars around disconcertingly; steering from the hips has much less of an effect on control of the bike.

If you choose gears to keep your cadence consistently in the 95 to 110 range, maintaining an efficient pedal stroke tends to take care of itself. When you find that you're riding at a cadence lower than that, just switch to a lower gear.

I got back to biking a bit over a year ago. I saw right away I had no ability to spin in circles. I could do it for just a few minutes and it made my legs tired after that. But having been a cyclist years ago I knew its importance and I just kept working at it, consciously each ride here and there. It took a full season and more for me to get to the point where now I am spinning pretty much all the time. Spin in circles till it's tiring. Ride. Spin again. Mash. Spin whenever you can. Keep working at it consciously. +1 on spinning classes and short bursts of ultra high speed spinning. It may take quite a while to get it under control because the leg muscles used aren't balanced for spinning by normal walking, but it will come after some hundreds of miles.

Read this: http://www.rivbike.com/article/clothing/the_shoes_ruse

EXCERPT: "When elite pedalers and lousy rookie pedalers have been hooked up to machines that measure muscle activity during pedaling, the machines tell us this: during normal pedaling at normal cadences, nobody pulls UP on the backstroke the elite/efficient pedalers push down less on the upward moving pedal than the rookies do."

So . . . we don't really pedal in circles after all?

(Yes, I realize who I'm quoting on this, so please take it with a teaspoon of salt since no particular study is cited.)

Read this: http://www.rivbike.com/article/clothing/the_shoes_ruse

EXCERPT: "When elite pedalers and lousy rookie pedalers have been hooked up to machines that measure muscle activity during pedaling, the machines tell us this: during normal pedaling at normal cadences, nobody pulls UP on the backstroke the elite/efficient pedalers push down less on the upward moving pedal than the rookies do."

So . . . we don't really pedal in circles after all?

(Yes, I realize who I'm quoting on this, so please take it with a teaspoon of salt since no particular study is cited.)

I think this is right if it means we are not actually exerting pulling force on the crank arm during the upstroke. We are pulling up against all the forces that are working to push it down. The weight of our legs, the geometry of our legs and position on the bike and such. Without the effort to pull the leg up, we would be exerting more downward force than we are.

Read this: http://www.rivbike.com/article/clothing/the_shoes_ruse

EXCERPT: "When elite pedalers and lousy rookie pedalers have been hooked up to machines that measure muscle activity during pedaling, the machines tell us this: during normal pedaling at normal cadences, nobody pulls UP on the backstroke the elite/efficient pedalers push down less on the upward moving pedal than the rookies do."

So . . . we don't really pedal in circles after all?

(Yes, I realize who I'm quoting on this, so please take it with a teaspoon of salt since no particular study is cited.)

Tell the researcher to ride with a Power Tap or other type of watt meter. Ride for 10 minutes at your regular cadence at your mid Z3 pace and record your average watts. Take a 10 minute break then ride another 10 minutes at Z3 at your regular cadence but this time concentrate on putting power into every part of your pedal stroke. Compare the average watts from the two efforts. I'll bet they will say there is a difference in average watts for the same effort and that we should pedal in circles if we want more speed at the same effort. I'm not a scientist or researcher but I have done the experiment and I concentrate on putting power into the entire pedal stroke.;)

These are not necessarily conflicting positions.

Tell the researcher to ride with a Power Tap or other type of watt meter. Ride for 10 minutes at your regular cadence at your mid Z3 pace and record your average watts. Take a 10 minute break then ride another 10 minutes at Z3 at your regular cadence but this time concentrate on putting power into every part of your pedal stroke. Compare the average watts from the two efforts. I'll bet they will say there is a difference in average watts for the same effort and that we should pedal in circles if we want more speed at the same effort. I'm not a scientist or researcher but I have done the experiment and I concentrate on putting power into the entire pedal stroke.;)

My experience too however.... Power produced is directly proportional to our ability to get oxygen to the muscles and use it. So once our power exceeds our available oxygen, it is checkmate. IMO, having a great pedal stroke is about de-emphasizing the use of the quads and emphasizing the use of the glutes (which get great blood flow) and contribution from the hams and hip flexors. Hypo...two riders in the peloton and one is pedaling smoothly and keeping his feet in the top of his shoes. He is optimizing his hams, hip flexors and glutes with minimal use of the quads. The other is spinning slower and mashing away using his quads and glutes. The peloton comes to a bump in the road and the power for both riders goes to 400 watts. The first rider now engages his fresher quads more while the other rider has to continue mashing putting even more work into his quads. As the miles go on, the rider who has a better pedals stroke has less fatigue at the end than the masher.

The key point is the more you can use your glutes (ass) and the quads less, for the same power there is less fatigue because the glutes get better blood flow. Does your ass ever get tired? My ass does not but my quads die like dogs.:D

My experience too however.... Power produced is directly proportional to our ability to get oxygen to the muscles and use it. So once our power exceeds our available oxygen, it is checkmate. IMO, having a great pedal stroke is about de-emphasizing the use of the quads and emphasizing the use of the glutes (which get great blood flow) and contribution from the hams and hip flexors. Hypo...two riders in the peloton and one is pedaling smoothly and keeping his feet in the top of his shoes. He is optimizing his hams, hip flexors and glutes with minimal use of the quads. The other is spinning slower and mashing away using his quads and glutes. The peloton comes to a bump in the road and the power for both riders goes to 400 watts. The first rider now engages his fresher quads more while the other rider has to continue mashing putting even more work into his quads. As the miles go on, the rider who has a better pedals stroke has less fatigue at the end than the masher.

The key point is the more you can use your glutes (ass) and the quads less, for the same power there is less fatigue because the glutes get better blood flow. Does your ass ever get tired? My ass does not but my quads die like dogs.:D

Actually, yes, my ass gets tired. As I work to pedal circles through more of my ride, I'm using my glutes more than I used to and those muscles just fatigue easier because they aren't as toned. I figure that with time they'll get in better shape and it will be a net gain, but for now this is actually something of a challenge.

Step 1: Put a 52" fixed gear on your bike
Step 2: Take it to the top of a long steep descent (many miles)
Step 3: Get on, clip in
Step 4: Proceed all the way down the hill (at top speed, of course)
Step 5: survive

Congratulations! You can now pedal in circles!

SP
Bend, OR

Spin in circles till it's tiring. Ride. Spin again. Mash. Spin whenever you can. Keep working at it consciously. It may take quite a while to get it under control because the leg muscles used aren't balanced for spinning by normal walking, but it will come after some hundreds of miles.

This is a pretty good description of my present situation. Well, the part about working at it consciously...