Vehicular Cycling (VC) - states without BIKES-FRAP law require bikes operate FRAP on all roads

well, in continuing with the topic at hand in the VC subforum,

what are cyclists road rights?

I've been looking at some of the states without bike specific share the road FRAP laws.

Some ardent fringers in the bike advocacy community rally cyclists to fight all bike specific laws, and to fight to remove bicyclists specific protections under law.

these arguments are not only specious, they are malicious, and instead are a fight to suborn cyclists to far more restrictive conditions.



Some in this forum suggest this legal condition (no bike specific law granting lane rights) represents a much better social, legal and operational climate for bicyclists. Their argument relies on wholly unsubstantiated claims that absent BIKES FRAP laws, bicyclists are allowed to take any lane position in the right hand lane of any laned roadway and wouldn't have to operate to share the road on two lane roads.

Those suggestions are unsubstantiated, and directly contradicted by operational dictates of the states that treat cyclists under the generic SMV FRAP requirements. There are only a handful of states without BIKES FRAP laws, and when their traffic laws are given even a rudimentary perusal, one thing jumps out:

Bikes have a legal obligation to operate FRAP on all roads.

Instead of the grand 'bicycle drivers' fantasy of road equality, the reality of no bike specificity in traffic law is far, far more restrictive.

Iowa- no BIKES FRAP law, requires bikes ride FRAP on all roads.

North Carolina- no BIKES FRAP law, requires bikes ride FRAP on all roads.

Kentucky - no BIKES FRAP law, requires bikes ride FRAP on all roads.

Indiana - no BIKES FRAP law, requires bikes ride FRAP on all roads.

I haven't had a chance to take a look at the handful of states remaining without bikes frap laws, but one thing is clear:

the prevailing interpretations from compelling authorities in states with no BIKES FRAP law is most assuredly NOT the candy land fantasy portrayed by cyclists seeking to take away our road rights.

Iowa Driver's Manual (http://www.iowadot.gov/mvd/ods/dlmanual/section3.pdf#page=13) would be a compelling authority, wouldn't it? It's more assertive of cyclists' right to take a lane than NY's is.


Sharing the Road
...
Bicycles
...
Under Iowa law, bicyclists and
motorists must comply with the same rules of the road
and be given the same rights. Sharing the road means
sharing these rights and responsibilities.

Just as motor vehicle operators have different levels of
skill, you will find bicycle riders with varying levels of skills.
When you approach bicycle riders,assess the bicyclists’
capabilities. A skillful cyclist rides predicitably and holds a
steady line.

Common signs of bicyclist inexperience may include:
• riding near the gutter
...
Give bicycle riders the room they deserve and need for
safety. When passing a bicycle rider, pass as if the cyclist
were a vehicle and move into the other lane. On multi-lane
roads with wide outside lanes, allow at least three to four feet
between your vehicle and the bicyclist for clearance. On narrow,
two-way roads, wait for a break in traffic before passing.
Do not pass if oncoming
traffic is near. After
passing, cautiously
return to your lane - a
bicyclist could be in
your blind spot.
..
Bicycles often
travel nearer the right
edge of a traffic lane. However, they may swerve to avoid
road hazards such as potholes, glass debris, drainage grates,
or a strong crosswind.
...
When in doubt, yield to bicyclists!

It says inexperienced cyclists ride too close to the gutter and cyclists often (not always) travel nearer the right edge of a traffic lane. It looks pretty good to me - especially compared to the NY state one I'm more familiar with.

What 'compelling authority' are you using for Iowa?

that's the DMV talking to motorists about bikes on the road, suggestions and education to drivers about bicyclists.


Here is the official DOT interpretation of bicyclists duties under law. this is distributed to bicyclists on their bike map. note, specifically, the cyclists duties, when travelling slower than other traffic, to

shall ride as close to the right curb or edge of the roadway as is safe and practicable

http://www.iowadot.gov/maps//msp/pdf/bikelaws.pdf

rules of the road for bicyclists of Iowa from the bike map and the Department of transportation (http://www.iowadot.gov/maps//msp/pdf/bikelaws.pdf)

Here is the official DOT interpretation of bicyclists duties under law. this is distributed to bicyclists on their bike map. note, specifically, the cyclists duties, when travelling slower than other traffic, to

shall ride as close to the right curb or edge of the roadway as is safe and practicable


OK...I think this is supporting John Forester's argument. Iowa is telling cyclists they should ride FRAP - just like other SMV and just like the other states with bicycle specific FRAP laws. They're doing so with the full knowledge that on many roads, FRAP is not very close to the right edge or curb, and telling drivers that cyclists will often NOT be on the right edge of the road or curb.

I compare that to NY state, where the DOT is pretty bicycle friendly and there is a bicycle-specific FRAP law, and the driver's manual (http://www.nydmv.state.ny.us/dmanual/chapter11-manual.htm) gives no hint that a cyclist would ever take the lane.


Chapter 11 Sharing the Road

Bicyclists and in-line skaters must:

Ride in a bicycle lane, if a usable one is available. Where there is none, the bicyclist must ride near the right curb or edge of the road, or on a usable right shoulder of the road, to avoid undue interference with other traffic. The rule of staying to the right does not apply when a bicyclist or in-line skater is preparing for a left turn or must move left to avoid hazards.

NY state drivers are supposed to understand that 'must move left to avoid hazards' includes roads too narrow for cars and bikes to share. It doesn't convey that message at all and 99.5% of the drivers therefore have the wrong understanding. I would take Iowa over my home state of NY any day. John Forester hasn't convinced me at all on the right lane / left lane thing but you're failing to convince me on this one. *shrug*

Bicyclists being required to operate FRAP on all roads in states with SMV FRAP laws regulating bicycle traffic is definitely not the argument :notamused: of the bicycle drivers. words fail me.

I've failed to convince you that states with no BIKES FRAP laws do indeed require FRAP from bicyclists on all roads and that the official interpretations of state laws are not so nearly as generous as some of the bicycle drivers suggest?


the arguments of some of the 'bicycle drivers' is that bicyclists in SMV FRAP states have responsibilities to operate FRAP only on unlaned roads. This is untenable. States with SMV FRAP laws all seem to fairly uniformly require FRAP of bicyclists on all roads of any number of lanes.

New York is not one of those states, and the history of your quite restrictive laws stretches back over a century to the days before motorized vehicles....... new york is quite restrictive, and its laws are reflective of the long contentious fight to the roads of New York state......


However, to states with no BIKE FRAP laws, just SMV FRAP laws....

their is no convincing needed when states expressly state the duties of bicyclists to operate FRAP.

certainly there is an element of safety embodied in FRAP.

Some bicycle drivers ardently insist an unsupportable position that the duty to do so does not exist on a two lane road, and that bikes on multi lane roads in states with only SMV FRAP laws have no duty to FRAP.

those inchoate arguments are untenable and unsupportable. Contrary to those specious assertions, bicyclists in states that have just SMV-FRAP laws still require bikes operate FRAP, on ALL roads in their state.

Some in this forum suggest this legal condition (no bike specific law granting lane rights) represents a much better social, legal and operational climate for bicyclists. Their argument relies on wholly unsubstantiated claims that absent BIKES FRAP laws, bicyclists are allowed to take any lane position in the right hand lane of any laned roadway and wouldn't have to operate to share the road on two lane roads.

I thought that the argument was that a generic slow moving vehicle law had to apply to all vehicles and could not specifically target bicycles. Consequently, discriminatory laws/rulings had to apply to all slow moving vehicles increasing the political base making such laws and rulings less likely.

that is perhaps part of that incredulous platform building, but it is not the entirety of its fraudulence. this thread is not about the rank politicization and postured suffragism of the bicycle driving community, it's that

SMV FRAP laws are NOT interpreted the way the bicycle drivers suggest.

The epistemological eye should be able to readily ascertain that the laws regulating bicycle traffic in states with SMV FRAP laws are not nearly so generous in lane position for bicyclists as some of the 'bicycle drivers' suggest.

that is perhaps part of that incredulous platform building, but it is not the entirety of its fraudulence. this thread is not about the rank politicization and postured suffragism of the bicycle driving community, it's that

SMV FRAP laws are NOT interpreted the way the bicycle drivers suggest.

The epistemological eye should be able to readily ascertain that the laws regulating bicycle traffic in states with SMV FRAP laws are not nearly so generous in lane position for bicyclists as some of the 'bicycle drivers' suggest.

Bek makes his argument that statutes do so-and-so, but in making his argument he simply asserts his opinion without ever providing the number and words of any such statute. Legalistic arguments without the supporting legal documents are no more than hot air.

:rolleyes:

my 'opinion' ya shure! :roflmao:


Is this the spot john thinks he can introduce pretending two lane roads have left lanes to use and the use of the word 'or' means there's no need to frap under smv frap laws?


SMV FRAP laws are NOT interpreted the way the bicycle drivers suggest.

The epistemological eye should be able to readily ascertain that the laws regulating bicycle traffic in states with SMV FRAP laws are not nearly so generous in lane position for bicyclists as some of the 'bicycle drivers' suggest.

Even if that is assumed to be true...

Would you rather ride in:

Iowa, where the driver's manual clearly instructs drivers to expect to move out of their lane to pass cyclists who are riding away from the right edge, and there is no bicycle-specific FRAP law or

New York, where the driver's manual implies that cyclists will almost never be found away from the right edge, and there is a bicycle-specific FRAP law

?

that is perhaps part of that incredulous platform building, but it is not the entirety of its fraudulence. this thread is not about the rank politicization and postured suffragism of the bicycle driving community, it's that

SMV FRAP laws are NOT interpreted the way the bicycle drivers suggest.

The epistemological eye should be able to readily ascertain that the laws regulating bicycle traffic in states with SMV FRAP laws are not nearly so generous in lane position for bicyclists as some of the 'bicycle drivers' suggest.

Your statement also made the thread about what bicycle drivers argue. It seems to me that it would be a lot easier to discriminate against a small base than a large one.

There seems to be a case in San Diego on this very topic ... http://www.bikesd.org/2011/06/another-wrongful-cvc-21202-a-citation/
If you follow the Tandem@Hobbes list you would see another recent example in San Anselmo. Although the tandem rider was not cited, the policeman, captain, and chief all interpreted the law badly letting a threatening and harassing driver go to "fix" the situation with the cyclist.

Would this be better or worse with a generic SMV law only or one with bicycle specific language? Proving either position is likely more trouble than its worth. With regards to defending clients against "impeding traffic", FRAP or similar statutes, discussions with trial lawyers seem to suggest that it's ambiguous; i.e., some would prefer bicycle specific language some otherwise. I'm not sure anyone else without lots of specific trial experience can convince anyone better than that.

:rolleyes:

my 'opinion' ya shure! :roflmao:


Is this the spot john thinks he can introduce pretending two lane roads have left lanes to use and the use of the word 'or' means there's no need to frap under smv frap laws?


SMV FRAP laws are NOT interpreted the way the bicycle drivers suggest.

So what? It is well known that much of the information circulating about bicycle traffic laws is erroneous. The only legal interpretations are the words of the statute itself and appellate opinions about that particular feature of the statute. Opinions of attorneys general have some weight. Bek has provided not such legal documentation.

Several states' official DOT depictions of bicyclists rights in states with only SMV FRAP laws are most assuredly coming from those states' bona fide authority regarding traffic regulations. States with only SMV FRAP laws have far, far less allowances for bicyclists to 'take the lane' than the 'bicycle drivers' make them out to be.

john asks, So what? :roflmao:

These compelling interpretations of traffic laws render BANKRUPT and LUDICROUS the bicycle drivers' arguments about traffic laws, the purportedly better treatment for bicyclists under SMV FRAP law.


Posturing that traffic laws laws need appellate cases to verify them is incorrect. State traffic laws most assuredly do not need appellate court decisions for validity. i doubt cyclists even have any room to challenge these SMV FRAP laws. I suspect no bicyclist case in these states without bikes-frap laws has even been appealed.

:notamused:

I'm not sure anyone else without lots of specific trial experience can convince anyone better than that.

there's not much of a debate about how states with only SMV-FRAP laws interpret the duties of bicyclists, invisiblehand.


I'm sorry. States' DOTs that regulate bikes soley as vehicles without BIKES FRAP provisions require bikes operate FRAP on all roads. this is affirmed across state lines, in several states, by states official instruction to bicyclists from these states Department of Transportation.

The preponderance and prevalence of this interpretation across state lines validates these stipulations of SMV FRAP laws even further.

duties of cyclists in SMV FRAP law states are not at all how some of the bicycle drivers portray them.

they recklessly perpetuate a dishonest portrayal of bicyclists duties under law, in their hapless or duplicitous efforts to take away cyclists rights in states that grant cyclists much greater allowances to 'take the lane.'

Several states' official DOT depictions of bicyclists rights in states with only SMV FRAP laws are most assuredly coming from those states' bona fide authority regarding traffic regulations. States with only SMV FRAP laws have far, far less allowances for bicyclists to 'take the lane' than the 'bicycle drivers' make them out to be.

john asks, So what? :roflmao:

These compelling interpretations of traffic laws render BANKRUPT and LUDICROUS the bicycle drivers' arguments about traffic laws, the purportedly better treatment for bicyclists under SMV FRAP law.


Posturing that traffic laws laws need appellate cases to verify them is incorrect. State traffic laws most assuredly do not need appellate court decisions for validity. i doubt cyclists even have any room to challenge these SMV FRAP laws. I suspect no bicyclist case in these states without bikes-frap laws has even been appealed.

:notamused:

When checking the law, one needs to both study the words of the statute and also find out whether an appellate court has provided an opinion. It may be true that few slow-moving vehicle statutes have been the subject of appellate opinion, but it is necessary to find out even that. But, notice all of you, while Bek has been prating much about the statutes, he has failed to provide either the statutes by number and wording or any indication of appellate opinions. In short, Bek's argumentation about the statutes means nothing unless he provides the statutes themselves.

:notamused:

my argument means nothing until i provide links to the fairly uniformly parroted UVC wordings for the SMV-FRAP laws in the handful of states that regulate bikes under these laws and not BIKES FRAP law?

:roflmao:

barring knowledge of appellate court decisions, i wonder where people go for interpretations of traffic laws on more regular basis? the state DOT perhaps.


Where would Iowa bicyclists go to get information on their responsibilities and rights as cyclists?


State's Department of Transportation and their interpretations of law would be regarded as one of, if not THE most compelling authorities regarding traffic regulation short of a courtroom interpretation of traffic laws in a case by case basis. Only at this time would a consideration of appellate court decisions likely to affect a case even be thought of.

:notamused:

my argument means nothing until i provide links to the fairly uniformly parroted UVC wordings for the SMV-FRAP laws in the handful of states that regulate bikes under these laws and not BIKES FRAP law?

:roflmao:

barring knowledge of appellate court decisions, i wonder where people go for interpretations of traffic laws on more regular basis? the state DOT perhaps.


Where would Iowa bicyclists go to get information on their responsibilities and rights as cyclists?


State's Department of Transportation and their interpretations of law would be regarded as one of, if not THE most compelling authorities regarding traffic regulation short of a courtroom interpretation of traffic laws in a case by case basis. Only at this time would a consideration of appellate court decisions likely to affect a case even be thought of.

No, Bek. The most authoritative understanding of a traffic-law statute that has not been the subject of an appellate opinion is the wording of the statute itself. The next most authoritative understanding would be one given by the Attorney General of the appropriate state, if such has been issued.

The words of the DOT have no legal standing.

But there is more, when considering bicycle traffic law. That is, DOTs most generally present the motorists' cyclist-inferiority view, partly because they are motorists and are writing for motorists. Of course, since you, Bek, desire the motorist-superiority, cyclist-inferiority view to prevail, you like what some DOTs say.

A lot of ifs there, john. IF there's an appellate court ruling, IF there's an AG ruling.

Appellate court rulings and AG opinions have not been issued for each and every traffic statute. Yet somehow the laws must still be disseminated to the public. Uniform statewide application of state laws regulating traffic fall to state DOTs. These State DOT's assuredly provide a compelling interpretation of traffic statutes regulating traffic. It's not just the AG, the appellate courts or the laws themselves that establish traffic convention and application of traffic laws.. Departments of Transportation have wide authority in states to regulate traffic.

John, where do everyday citizens go for information about traffic laws, if they can't get the attorney general on the horn, or an appellate court synopsis?

The words of the department of transportation have the weight of a compelling authority. There is a compounded weight of these traffic authorities that regulate traffic in the uniform interpretation of SMV-FRAP laws across state lines that require cyclists operate FRAP at all times on all roads.

States that regulate bikes under SMV-FRAP laws and these states' DOT interpretations of these laws uniformly compel bicyclists to operate as close as practicable to the edge of the road at all times and on all roads - unlaned, two lane, multiple lane roads.

These states with SMV-FRAP laws all uniformly have far more restrictive operating requirements for bicyclists than how some of the bicycle drivers mischaracterize them.

Avoid the false claims of the bicycle drivers that SMV-FRAP laws are the preferred condition and that SMV-FRAP laws grant cyclists rights they do not possess.

Misrepresentation of SMV-FRAP laws as representing cyclists grand equality to take the lane like other vehicles is quite errant, and quite odious.

Cyclists should not seek to remove cyclists protections under law to be suborned to operate FRAP at all times on all roads.

Far better a condition in most states to be explicitly allowed to take lanes unsafe to share and other allowances that are NOT granted cyclists in SMV-FRAP law states.

SMV-FRAP laws are not as some of the bicycle drivers suggest.

Bek, can you please answer my question?


Would you rather ride in:

Iowa, where the driver's manual clearly instructs drivers to expect to move out of their lane to pass cyclists who are riding away from the right edge, and there is no bicycle-specific FRAP law or

New York, where the driver's manual implies that cyclists will almost never be found away from the right edge, and there is a bicycle-specific FRAP law

?

I used to live in Iowa (Iowa City), and New York (Lake Placid at the OTC!) too. I'd rather cycle in New York state to be perfectly honest. it's much prettier.

New York cyclists have the explicit right to lanes too narrow to share, and numerous other exceptions Iowa cyclists do not. Iowa cyclists are suborned to operating FRAP on all roads to facilitate passing and have no legal right to take a substandard width lane for safety, they are always suborned to operate FRAP by law.

This means, unfortunately, that cyclists in Iowa and other states with SMV FRAP laws applicable are legally required to ride as far to the right side or curb as is safe and practicable, on all roads, laned or unlaned, lanes wide or narrow, single lane each direction or multiple lane roads, to facilitate safe overtaking. Even in an 9 foot narrow lane, an Iowa cyclist has no explicit legal protection to 'take the lane'. There is no legal allowance for cyclists to operate well in the lane of a 13 foot lane in Iowa that cyclists explicitly entertain in many of the states with BIKES FRAP laws.

Florida or Colorado and its treatment of bicyclists is far, far more equitable with BIKES FRAP laws. there is not a uniform standard of BIKES FRAP, except to say that they generally are more permissive towards bicyclists choice of a safe and defensive road position.

meh. comparing the DMV suggestions to drivers is not a ready comparison between the states. most states have fairly uniform DMV manuals that suggest safe operation around bike traffic and that bikes will be operating to the right.



New York is not a good state to regard for bike rights, it is quite restrictive towards bicyclists. New York States institutionalized animosity towards bicycle traffic has a long troubled past, part of a long historic fight for bicyclists rights to the road in new york state. Are you familiar with the history of your states' Liberty Law, benjdm? and did you know Teddy Roosevelt was the first bicycle squad commissioner in New York City, tasked with a force of 100 bicycle patrolmen to keep the order?

New York bicycling has a storied and contentious history.

I used to live in Iowa (Iowa City), and New York (Lake Placid at the OTC!) too. I'd rather cycle in New York state to be perfectly honest. it's much prettier.

New York cyclists have the explicit right to lanes too narrow to share, and numerous other exceptions Iowa cyclists do not. Iowa cyclists are suborned to operating FRAP on all roads to facilitate passing and have no legal right to take a substandard width lane for safety, they are always suborned to operate FRAP by law.

This means, unfortunately, that cyclists in Iowa and other states with SMV FRAP laws applicable are legally required to ride as far to the right side or curb as is safe and practicable, on all roads, laned or unlaned, lanes wide or narrow, single lane each direction or multiple lane roads, to facilitate safe overtaking. Even in an 9 foot narrow lane, an Iowa cyclist has no explicit legal protection to 'take the lane'. There is no legal allowance for cyclists to operate well in the lane of a 13 foot lane in Iowa that cyclists explicitly entertain in many of the states with BIKES FRAP laws.

Florida or Colorado and its treatment of bicyclists is far, far more equitable with BIKES FRAP laws. there is not a uniform standard of BIKES FRAP, except to say that they generally are more permissive towards bicyclists choice of a safe and defensive road position.

meh. comparing the DMV suggestions to drivers is not a ready comparison between the states. most states have fairly uniform DMV manuals that suggest safe operation around bike traffic and that bikes will be operating to the right.



New York is not a good state to regard for bike rights, it is quite restrictive towards bicyclists. New York States institutionalized animosity towards bicycle traffic has a long troubled past, part of a long historic fight for bicyclists rights to the road in new york state. Are you familiar with the history of your states' Liberty Law, benjdm? and did you know Teddy Roosevelt was the first bicycle squad commissioner in New York City, tasked with a force of 100 bicycle patrolmen to keep the order?

New York bicycling has a storied and contentious history.

With all his argumentation about traffic laws, Bek has not provided the number and wording of any law to support his argumentation. Therefore, his words are no more than hot air.

:roflmao: really now?

yeah, i have no merit to be discussing teddy roosevelt or the liberty law or bikes frap law versus smv frap law. Maybe a grouse is going to waste this forums time one more time by claiming, incorrigibly, that Idaho or North Carolina have no SMV FRAP laws or by sophistically posturing that the equipment requirements for drivers are states operating requirements.

Disrespecting others once again, from a irascible forum nanny :notamused:

New York cyclists have the explicit right to lanes too narrow to share, and numerous other exceptions Iowa cyclists do not. Iowa cyclists are suborned to operating FRAP on all roads to facilitate passing and have no legal right to take a substandard width lane for safety, they are always suborned to operate FRAP by law.

FRAP includes the right to take lanes too narrow to share. That's what the P means - practicable. Iowa and NY cyclists both have this right equally.


Even in an 9 foot narrow lane, an Iowa cyclist has no explicit legal protection to 'take the lane'.

Baloney. They have just as much protection as they do in NY. And the Iowa drivers who studied the driver's manual will actually be more aware of it than NY drivers will.


comparing the DMV suggestions to drivers is not a ready comparison between the states. most states have fairly uniform DMV manuals that suggest safe operation around bike traffic and that bikes will be operating to the right.

The Iowa and NY DMV Driver's manuals are very different in their language about bicyclists. The percentage of drivers who have (at some point) read the driver's manuals is MUCH higher than the percentage who have read the actual traffic laws or DOT interpretations.


New York is not a good state to regard for bike rights, it is quite restrictive towards bicyclists. New York States institutionalized animosity towards bicycle traffic has a long troubled past, part of a long historic fight for bicyclists rights to the road in new york state. Are you familiar with the history of your states' Liberty Law, benjdm?

No, I'm not familiar with the history nor the Liberty Law. I'll do some googling after I post this. ISTM that the bicycle specific FRAP laws aren't particularly helpful, given the few examples I know about so far. (NY and Iowa.)


and did you know Teddy Roosevelt was the first bicycle squad commissioner in New York City, tasked with a force of 100 bicycle patrolmen to keep the order?

I didn't know that either.

Iowa doesn't have a BIKES FRAP law. keep the fundamentals straight.

I'm not tooting my own horn when I state I possess a quite encompassing historical overview of bicycling rights and perpetuation of bicyclists road rights in this country, absent the smeared lens of suffragism some bicycle drivers view themselves thru.

Iowa doesn't have a BIKES FRAP law. keep the fundamentals straight.

You said, repeatedly, things like this:


This means, unfortunately, that cyclists in Iowa and other states with SMV FRAP laws applicable are legally required to ride as far to the right side or curb as is safe and practicable, on all roads, laned or unlaned, lanes wide or narrow, single lane each direction or multiple lane roads, to facilitate safe overtaking.

Practicable includes moving left if the lane is too narrow to share. Riding near the edge of a lane that is too narrow to share is not FRAP, it's as far right as possible.

Also, the only 'liberty laws' I can find via google have to do with fugitive slaves. *shrug*

benj-

I'm sorry, but if you can't distinguish between states that have BIKES FRAP laws and states that have SMV FRAP laws applicable to bicyclists, i think taking a look at what the topic is about, maybe rereading the original post might help you firm up the rudiments of the discussion.

practicable in law means 'what a reasonable person could put into practice.' it doesn't mean 'take the lane if its unsafe to share'

there is some implied safe road positioning away from the edge under any frap requirement, but it is only implied. in california and new york and florida and washington and many other states with BIKES FRAP laws this is explicit in the wording of the law.

bicyclists in states with just SMV FRAP laws are required to frap far more frequently and in much more restrictive ways than how some of the 'bicycle drivers' choose to mischaracterize those SMV FRAP laws.

bicyclists in states with just SMV FRAP laws are required to frap far more frequently and in much more restrictive ways than how some of the 'bicycle drivers' choose to mischaracterize those SMV FRAP laws.

That's what you say, but that's not what the comparison of NY and Iowa is telling me. You are the one who doesn't want to limit the discussion to what the laws themselves say but what the authorities like the DOT or DMV in each state say. The authorities in Iowa are much more bicycle-friendly than in my home state of NY.

NYDOT gives limited instruction to bicyclists to keep right in New York state in its dissemination of traffic laws of your state. keep in mind cyclists are subject to mandatory shoulder use in NY, a condition bikes are not subject to in Iowa.

(by no means do i think New York State represents an enlightened legal climate for bicyclists. look to Colorado and its BIKE FRAP law for a most agreeable law regulating bicycle traffic.)

New York "You should generally bicycle as far to the right as is practicable. If there is a safe shoulder, use it instead of the traffic lane. Smart cyclists plot a line straight down the roadway 3-4 feet from the curb or parked cars. This allows them space to avoid road hazards and to be more visible to motorists and pedestrians."

the DOT of Iowa and its instructions to bicyclists to stay right on all roads is clear in their instructions to bicyclists.

DMV manuals educating drivers that bikes are on the road do not provide a compelling interpretation of traffic laws. its nice that they describe safe road operation around bicyclists, that is not where bicycle regulation resides.

Here's the summary: in states with just SMV FRAP laws, bicyclists must still operate FRAP. These requirements are mandatory on all roads of any lane stripe and independent of the width of the lane.

These duties are whitewashed by the bicycle drivers with their dishonest portrayals of 'bikes allowed full use of lane" candyland fantasies about cyclists road rights far removed from reality in states with applicable SMV FRAP laws.

and benj, you do misunderstand the topic if you think Iowa has a BIKES FRAP law. it does not.

Bike traffic in Iowa is governed by a much more restrictive SMV FRAP law.

Cyclists should not fight our road rights in states with BIKES FRAP laws to be suborned to a far more restrictive SMV FRAP condition. Avoid cycling advocacy that makes unsubstantiated, untenable claims about SMV FRAP laws and their operating requirements for bicyclists.

NYDOT gives limited instruction to bicyclists to keep right in New York state in its dissemination of traffic laws of your state. keep in mind cyclists are subject to mandatory shoulder use in NY, a condition bikes are not subject to in Iowa.

I do not agree that bicyclists in NY are subject to mandatory shoulder use. Even below, you quote it as being limited to 'safe shoulders.'


§ 1234. Riding on roadways, shoulders, bicycle or in-line skate lanes
and bicycle or in-line skate paths. (a) Upon all roadways, any bicycle
or in-line skate shall be driven either on a usable bicycle or in-line
skate lane or, if a usable bicycle or in-line skate lane has not been
provided, near the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway or upon a
usable right-hand shoulder in such a manner as to prevent undue
interference with the flow of traffic except when preparing for a left
turn or when reasonably necessary to avoid conditions that would make it
unsafe to continue along near the right-hand curb or edge. Conditions to
be taken into consideration include, but are not limited to, fixed or
moving objects, vehicles, bicycles, in-line skates, pedestrians,
animals, surface hazards or traffic lanes too narrow for a bicycle or
person on in-line skates and a vehicle to travel safely side-by-side
within the lane.

Bike lane use is mandatory ('shall') where usable bike lanes are provided. Shoulders are only listed as another legal option.


(by no means do i think New York State represents an enlightened legal climate for bicyclists. look to Colorado and its BIKE FRAP law for a most agreeable law regulating bicycle traffic.)

Then, as a NY state resident, I think the difference between SMV-FRAP and bicycle specific FRAP is not particularly important. Iowa bicyclists have a more favorable environment with SMV-FRAP than NY bicyclists with bicycle specific FRAP.

Googling...wow, that Colorado law (http://colobikelaw.com/law.php) is very nice.

Is there anyone who would prefer a particular state's SMV law to the bicycle-specific Colorado law? I would prefer the Colorado law to any other law I've seen so far. (Which, admittedly, is few.)


the DOT of Iowa and its instructions to bicyclists to stay right on all roads is clear in their instructions to bicyclists.

Only as far right as practicable. Not as far right as possible.
Iowa DOT Rules of the Road for Cyclists (http://www.iowadot.gov/maps//msp/pdf/bikelaws.pdf)


RIDE ON THE RIGHT AND WITH TRAFFIC Bicyclists
must ride with the flow of traffic on the right side of
the roadway, except: when overtaking and passing
another vehicle; when preparing for a lefft turn; when
avoiding parked vehicles, drain grates, or debris; or
when avoiding any other road conditions that may
affect the operation of bicycles. Bicyclists may also
ride on the shoulder or a designated bike lane. Bicyclists
operating on a roadway at less than the normal
speed of traffic shall ride as close to the right curb or
edge of the roadway as is safe and practical.



DMV manuals educating drivers that bikes are on the road do not provide a compelling interpretation of traffic laws. its nice that they describe safe road operation around bicyclists, that is not where bicycle regulation resides.

DOT interpretations that a few policy wonks read are important but DMV manuals that most licensed drivers have read are not important? Seriously?


Here's the summary: in states with just SMV FRAP laws, bicyclists must still operate FRAP. These requirements are mandatory on all roads of any lane stripe and independent of the width of the lane.

Where a bicyclist is not sharing a lane that is too narrow to share side by side, do you believe the bicyclist is as far right as practicable?


and benj, you do misunderstand the topic if you think Iowa has a BIKES FRAP law. it does not.

I know it doesn't. I am not illiterate.


Bike traffic in Iowa is governed by a much more restrictive SMV FRAP law.

I do not see how it is any more restrictive. If ticketed for not sharing a lane too narrow to be shared safely, I think my chances of beating the ticket would be no worse in Iowa than in NY. I think my chances of receiving the ticket in the first place are higher in NY than in Iowa.

NYDOT gives limited instruction to bicyclists to keep right in New York state in its dissemination of traffic laws of your state. keep in mind cyclists are subject to mandatory shoulder use in NY, a condition bikes are not subject to in Iowa.

(by no means do i think New York State represents an enlightened legal climate for bicyclists. look to Colorado and its BIKE FRAP law for a most agreeable law regulating bicycle traffic.)

New York "You should generally bicycle as far to the right as is practicable. If there is a safe shoulder, use it instead of the traffic lane. Smart cyclists plot a line straight down the roadway 3-4 feet from the curb or parked cars. This allows them space to avoid road hazards and to be more visible to motorists and pedestrians."

the DOT of Iowa and its instructions to bicyclists to stay right on all roads is clear in their instructions to bicyclists.

DMV manuals educating drivers that bikes are on the road do not provide a compelling interpretation of traffic laws. its nice that they describe safe road operation around bicyclists, that is not where bicycle regulation resides.

Here's the summary: in states with just SMV FRAP laws, bicyclists must still operate FRAP. These requirements are mandatory on all roads of any lane stripe and independent of the width of the lane.

These duties are whitewashed by the bicycle drivers with their dishonest portrayals of 'bikes allowed full use of lane" candyland fantasies about cyclists road rights far removed from reality in states with applicable SMV FRAP laws.

and benj, you do misunderstand the topic if you think Iowa has a BIKES FRAP law. it does not.

Bike traffic in Iowa is governed by a much more restrictive SMV FRAP law.

Cyclists should not fight our road rights in states with BIKES FRAP laws to be suborned to a far more restrictive SMV FRAP condition. Avoid cycling advocacy that makes unsubstantiated, untenable claims about SMV FRAP laws and their operating requirements for bicyclists.

Here is the NY statute for slow-moving vehicles:

New York Vehicle Code Section 1120 ...
(b) In addition, upon all roadways, any vehicle proceeding at less than the normal speed of traffic at the time and place and under the conditions then existing shall be driven in the right-hand lane then available for traffic, or as close as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway, except when overtaking and passing another vehicle proceeding in the same direction or when preparing for a left turn at an intersection or into a private road or driveway.

As you can see, this is a rather standard wording. All of Bek's argumentative claims over the past few days rest, although he has not had the courage to admit it, on his claim that this wording, if applied to cyclists on a two-way road, would prohibit cyclists from using the right-hand lane in the normal manner.

There has been no change in Bek's advocacy. He is adamant that cyclists should be subservient to motorists by riding FRAP and using bikeways, thereby advocating the positions of the motoring establishment.

Arkansas is one of of the handful of states that has no specific FRAP law for bikes or other slow-moving vehicles. Instead, state law (Arkansas Code of 1987, Annotated, or "A.C.A." Sect. 27-49-111 simply says that cyclists (and others) have all the rights and other responsibilities that apply to a driver of a vehicle, with the obvious exceptions of where a separate law for bikes applies (e.g., lighting standards) or the law applies only to motor vehicles (e.g., impeding traffic, DUI provisions, etc.).

The Arkansas code simply specifies the where there is a roadway, you drive on the right half thereof, unless a sign specifically tells you to do otherwise.




27-51-301. Vehicles to be driven on right side of roadway - Exceptions.


(a) Upon all roadways of sufficient width, a vehicle shall be driven upon the right half of the roadway, except as follows:
(1) When overtaking and passing another vehicle proceeding in the same direction under the rules governing that movement;
(2) When the right half of a roadway is closed to traffic while under construction or repair;
(3) Upon a roadway divided into three (3) marked lanes for traffic under the rules applicable thereon; or
(4) Upon a roadway designated and signposted for one-way traffic.

(b) Motor vehicles shall not be operated continuously in the left lane of a multilane roadway whenever it impedes the flow of other traffic.


27-51-302. Driving on roadways laned for traffic.


Whenever any roadway has been divided into two (2) or more clearly marked lanes for traffic, the following rules in addition to all others consistent with this subchapter shall apply:

(1) A vehicle shall be driven as nearly as practical entirely within a single lane and shall not be moved from the lane until the driver has first ascertained that movement can be made with safety;

(2) Official signs may be erected directing slower-moving traffic to use a designated lane or allocating specified lanes to traffic moving in the same direction, and drivers of vehicles shall obey the directions of every such sign.

Here is the NY statute for slow-moving vehicles:

New York Vehicle Code Section 1120 ...
(b) In addition, upon all roadways, any vehicle proceeding at less than the normal speed of traffic at the time and place and under the conditions then existing shall be driven in the right-hand lane then available for traffic, or as close as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway, except when overtaking and passing another vehicle proceeding in the same direction or when preparing for a left turn at an intersection or into a private road or driveway.

I would prefer 1120 to 1234, but I would prefer the Colorado statute to both.

Arkansas is one of of the handful of states that has no specific FRAP law for bikes or other slow-moving vehicles.

Correction: Arkansas is the ONLY state without a SMV-FRAP law. all 49 other states echo some form of UVC requirements and there is a fair degree of uniformity between the states, except Arkansas, that slow moving vehicles share roads by operating to the right, as far to the right as practicable.

more than two thirds of the states have more permissive allowances for bicyclists than states with SMV FRAP laws.

I wonder how many cyclists get ticketed in Arkansas? Heck, i wonder how much bicycling is even going on in Arkansas? Doesn't ever really ring any bells as a bicycle friendly state, does it? Second lowest in the country in bike to work share, a paltry .13% of Arkansasans bike to work.

real cyclists paradise there, ya shure ya betchya.

I would prefer 1120 to 1234, but I would prefer the Colorado statute to both.

so you prefer the more restrictive law, with less allowances for bicyclists to travel away from the road edge. interesting. :eek:

The Colorado BIKES FRAP law truly is a model law for bicycling that should be emulated nationwide.

so you prefer the more restrictive law, with less allowances for bicyclists to travel away from the road edge. interesting. :eek:

It's not more restrictive. It gives as the first and most preferred lane position 'the right lane then available for traffic.' 1234's first and most preferred position is the bike lane. In order to justify my position on the road on 95% of the roads I ride on I have to go to the exceptions which are not very easy to read. It also is already implying I'm not riding where I'm supposed to be riding - a bike lane. Look at the CVC 21202 (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php/745191-Another-Wrongful-CVC-21202-(a)-Citation) case in A&S - the road clearly met the exceptions and yet the judge found him guilty of violating CVC 21202. How is the bicycle FRAP law helping him? It isn't.


The Colorado BIKES FRAP law truly is a model law for bicycling that should be emulated nationwide.

I like that one too.

I'm sorry, benj, but uniform statutory construction and interpretation of SMV FRAP laws in states that regulate bikes as SMV all predicate bicyclists travel in the 'as far right as practicable' position, not the 'right hand lane' position.

I do agree New York has some of the worst bike laws. if you ever get appraised of the history of bicycle rights in your state, i think you would find them fascinating.

someone has fed you a line, and that line leads with deceit. sorry you got caught up and believe the fraudulent claims that statutory construction that contains 'right hand lane OR' gives a bicyclist a choice to avoid the duty to FRAP on laned roads.


Sorry, but those claims are glaringly incorrect.

Your assertion that a New York rider would be free to choose any lane position on a laned roadway is incorrect and unsupportable.

SMV FRAP laws as worded are far more restrictive on cyclists than cyclists specific FRAP laws.

I'm sorry, benj, but uniform statutory construction and interpretation of SMV FRAP laws in states that regulate bikes as SMV all predicate bicyclists travel in the 'as far right as practicable' position, not the 'right hand lane' position.
I don't care about all that. The person reading the statute, whether it's a judge or a cop or a driver or a bicyclist, is going to read it with the first option being the most preferred. That's how it gets read in bike-FRAP cases and why cyclists have such a poor track record in avoiding getting ticketed or getting out of tickets after being ticketed. It's basic reading comprehension. The NY law makes it sound like cyclists should only rarely be in the lane. The NY driver's manual makes it sound like cyclists should only rarely be in the lane. The NY sharing the road pamphlet (http://www.safeny.ny.gov/media/share-road.htm) makes it sound like cyclists should only rarely be in the lane until the last page. In reality, I have not found a single bike lane in my town (the first listed road position.) The second position listed is near the right-hand edge of the roadway or curb. Only the very last exception is for narrow lanes - and all the lanes in my town are narrow. Every single one. That's a hard sell - the last (and presumably least often occurring) exception is the most common? I'm supposed to successfully convince a driver or police officer that the people who wrote the laws meant for me to operate away from the right edge of the road on every single road in my town based on that law?



I do agree New York has some of the worst bike laws.
Then you can understand my lack of appreciation for the bicycle-FRAP law in NY. Even with it, NY is still one of the worst.


someone has fed you a line, and that line leads with deceit.
Oh, please. I've read the statutes and your and Forester's arguments. I don't believe there is deceit - I think everyone in these threads is arguing sincerely.


sorry you got caught up and believe the fraudulent claims that statutory construction that contains 'right hand lane OR' gives a bicyclist a choice to avoid the duty to FRAP on laned roads.
You continue to not listen to me. I think bicyclists DO have the requirement to operate FRAP on laned roads. I think when I'm cycling in a lane that is too narrow for a bike and car to share side by side (like this one (http://maps.google.com/maps?q=moe+road,+clifton+park,+ny&hl=en&ll=42.818041,-73.790715&spn=0.104384,0.264187&sll=42.839975,-73.79405&sspn=0.013043,0.033023&gl=us&z=13&layer=c&cbll=42.818041,-73.790715&panoid=acjCjLO-NreMJ2VkbeUP0g&cbp=12,17.27,,0,0) or this one (http://maps.google.com/maps?q=moe+road,+clifton+park,+ny&hl=en&ll=42.838004,-73.815332&spn=0.104351,0.264187&sll=42.839975,-73.79405&sspn=0.013043,0.033023&gl=us&layer=c&cbll=42.838004,-73.815332&panoid=GtxYA-Fq0DwoJI4y2eP_mg&cbp=12,53.22,,0,1.4&z=13) or this one (http://maps.google.com/maps?q=moe+road,+clifton+park,+ny&hl=en&ll=42.856634,-73.802685&spn=0.104319,0.264187&sll=42.839975,-73.79405&sspn=0.013043,0.033023&gl=us&layer=c&cbll=42.856634,-73.802685&panoid=VrYY7UfKcZZe-1n56xPd9Q&cbp=12,122.96,,0,9.06&z=13)), operating in the right tire track or near the center of the lane is operating FRAP. (You dodged my question earlier on that: Where a bicyclist is not sharing a lane that is too narrow to share side by side, do you believe the bicyclist is as far right as practicable?)


Your assertion that a New York rider would be free to choose any lane position on a laned roadway is incorrect and unsupportable.

*blinks* Where did I assert that?

benj- the implications of your argument and how far is practicable aside, you're presenting some contradictions.

you're telling the forum that new york smv law would allow a bicyclist to a 'first and preferred position'(?) and be governed by 'the right hand lane' wording.

In states with this wording, that is not the case.

Contradicting now, you also state you think bicyclists DO have a requirement to FRAP in states with SMV FRAP laws.


I think bicyclists DO have the requirement to operate FRAP on laned roads.

What are you saying again? it appears you agree with the original post, that cyclists in states with SMV FRAP laws do require cyclists to FRAP on laned roads, and not the way some of the 'bicycle drivers' suggest.

I wonder how many cyclists get ticketed in Arkansas? Heck, i wonder how much bicycling is even going on in Arkansas? Doesn't ever really ring any bells as a bicycle friendly state, does it? Second lowest in the country in bike to work share, a paltry .13% of Arkansasans bike to work.

real cyclists paradise there, ya shure ya betchya.

It's a lot better than it looks from the League report. We do have a significant handicap in the state highways department, fondly known as the "Department of Cars & Trucks" in that they managed to spend the least of any state out of the allocated federal TE and stimulus funding last year... only $53,000 out of $12.6 million awarded. Enforcement on a statewide basis is a joke, while we have had a 3-foot passing law here for four years now, it's never been advertised in a state-sponsored forum, and it's never been enforced. Most advocacy work is being done at the community level as we continue to beat our heads against the asphalt walls of the Highway Department and local cops.

that's comprehensive ACS survey data from the department of commerce, not a 'league report.' Your state is second to last in the percentage of people that bike to work.

your states climate for bicycling sounds pretty lousy by most accounts including your own.


Arkansas also lacks uniformity between all other states with its lack of a smv-frap law. That is NOT an enlightened position regarding traffic management.

benj- the implications of your argument and how far is practicable aside, you're presenting some contradictions.

you're telling the forum that new york smv law would allow a bicyclist to a 'first and preferred position'(?) and be governed by 'the right hand lane' wording.

The statute says 'any vehicle proceeding at less than the normal speed of traffic at the time and place and under the conditions then existing shall be driven' - where? The first position listed is the right hand lane then available for traffic. Being listed first makes it the one people will latch onto as where they expect to find slow moving vehicles. It's also what the law is suggesting is the preferred place for them to be. That's how people read.

If you're telling someone how to do something - cut down a tree, for example - the instructions will cover the general case first and cover rarer exceptions afterward. The NY bicycle specific FRAP laws are telling readers that the general case is for bicycles to be way over to the right. That's why people still get ticketed and convicted of violating bicycle FRAP laws even when they are following them.


In states with this wording, that is not the case.

You say this, yet the Iowa driver's manuals and pamphlets clearly teach drivers to expect cyclists in the lane more often than the NY driver's manuals do.


Contradicting now, you also state you think bicyclists DO have a requirement to FRAP in states with SMV FRAP laws.

I do. Annoying other road-users is not my goal. I move right wherever it is safe to do so when someone wants to pass me. For the third time:

I think when I'm cycling in a lane that is too narrow for a bike and car to share side by side, operating in the right tire track or near the center of the lane is operating FRAP. (You dodged my question twice now: Where a bicyclist is not sharing a lane that is too narrow to share side by side, do you believe the bicyclist is as far right as practicable? Examples are in my previous post.)


What are you saying again? it appears you agree with the original post, that cyclists in states with SMV FRAP laws do require cyclists to FRAP on laned roads, and not the way some of the 'bicycle drivers' suggest.

I am saying that I would find NY 1120 preferable to NY 1234 and the Colorado bike law preferable to both. I think I would experience more reasonable expectations from drivers and police officers and DMV manuals under NY 1120, and more reasonable still under the Colorado law.

John Forester, or anyone else who cares to answer, how would you rank the NY 1120 (http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/nycode/VAT/VII/25/1120) vs. NY 1234 (http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/nycode/VAT/VII/34/1234) vs. Colorado bicycle specific FRAP law (http://colobikelaw.com/law.php) in order of preference?

benjdm,

all the arguing is not going to change the irrefutable nature of SMV FRAP laws requiring, like you suggest, that bicyclists do indeed, have to ride as far to the right as practicable on laned roads in states with SMV FRAP laws applicable to bicyclists.

the smv-frap laws are not as some of the bicycle drivers suggest. SMV FRAP laws require bicyclists - and you agree with this statement, benjd! to operate FRAP on laned roads.

Personal preferences and opinions and skew about how we feel about traffic laws do not comprise the actual operating duties of those laws.

I take back my previous answer in post 37. People who are arguing sincerely do not refuse to answer a straightforward question 3 times. You have persuaded me both that there is deceit in this discussion and who it is coming from.

benjdm,

all the arguing is not going to change the irrefutable nature of SMV FRAP laws requiring, like you suggest, that bicyclists do indeed, have to ride as far to the right as practicable on laned roads in states with SMV FRAP laws applicable to bicyclists.

the smv-frap laws are not as some of the bicycle drivers suggest. SMV FRAP laws require bicyclists - and you agree with this statement, benjd! to operate FRAP on laned roads.

Personal preferences and opinions and skew about how we feel about traffic laws do not comprise the actual operating duties of those laws.

It is all very well for Bek to decry personal preferences and skew about traffic laws, but it is obvious that the greatest extent of personal preferences and skew is that which Bek uses to argue what the duties are. What Bek decries as personal preference and skew is no more than holding that two-lane roads have a right-hand lane, and that the word 'or' offers a choice between lawful actions. Not much personal preference and skew involved in that understanding. But Bek claims that it is not personal preference or skew that is involved in his claim that two-lane roads do not have right-hand lanes and that 'or' does not offer a choice between lawful actions. Which view has the greater expression of personal preference and skew?

It is all very well for Bek to decry personal preferences and skew about traffic laws, but it is obvious that the greatest extent of personal preferences and skew is that which Bek uses to argue what the duties are.

John, could you please tell me which law you would prefer to apply to you when operating a bicycle: NY 1120 (http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/nycode/VAT/VII/25/1120), NY 1234 (http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/nycode/VAT/VII/34/1234), or the Colorado bicycle specific FRAP law (http://colobikelaw.com/law.php)?

I thought that the argument was that a generic slow moving vehicle law had to apply to all vehicles and could not specifically target bicycles. Consequently, discriminatory laws/rulings had to apply to all slow moving vehicles increasing the political base making such laws and rulings less likely.
?

Slow moving motorized vehicles aren't common enough to increase any sort of "political base".

I'd guess that there are many more bicyclists than slow moving motor vehicles.

I compare that to NY state, where the DOT is pretty bicycle friendly and there is a bicycle-specific FRAP law, and the driver's manual (http://www.nydmv.state.ny.us/dmanual/chapter11-manual.htm) gives no hint that a cyclist would ever take the lane.




Bicyclists and in-line skaters must:

Ride in a bicycle lane, if a usable one is available. Where there is none, the bicyclist must ride near the right curb or edge of the road, or on a usable right shoulder of the road, to avoid undue interference with other traffic. The rule of staying to the right does not apply when a bicyclist or in-line skater is preparing for a left turn or must move left to avoid hazards.

This looks like a "hint" to me.

This looks like a "hint" to me.

You're right - I exaggerated. It gives no hint that a cyclist would take the lane for an extended period of time, because the hazard is that the road is too narrow to share.

Some random comments/opinions.

* I don't think there's a fundamental flaw in FRAP laws.

* Most of the confusion about the actual text of such laws is associated with the word "practicable" (WA use "as is safe" instead).

* Whether provided by custom or the law, FRAP for bicycles is necessary to be able to accommodate cars and bicycles on the same roads "fairly". This is exactly analogous to laws regarding other kinds of slow moving vehicles.

* Bicycles are a subclass of "slow moving vehicle". They have a rather distinct property of being very narrow. That property means that general slow moving vehicle laws (such as the "pull out" laws) might be unreasonably restrictive (and unnecessary) for bicyclists.

* Many motorists do not think that bicycles belong on the road or even have a legal right to be there. I don't see how the presence or absence of any particular law or laws would change that.

* The difficulty that a motorist might have with cyclists is mostly due to inexperience with dealing with them and because they don't have the same behavior (as perceived or actual) as cars. Cars behave in rather consistent ways and motorists get lots of practice and reinforcement dealing with other cars.

* While I don't see FRAP laws as inherently a problem, there does need to be wider understanding that bicyclists are allowed to use the full lane (with the typical limitation that they do so when FRAP isn't practicable).

* Some states do not require bicyclists to ride FRAP when there is no other traffic.

* It doesn't seem too hard (at least in NJ) for bicyclists and drivers to share the road. The basic requirements to do that is for drivers to be a bit more patient (and understand that bicyclists can/may be in the lane) and for bicyclists to facilitate passing.

* It isn't clear to me that there is any sort of epidemic of bicyclists being cited incorrectly for violating FRAP. No one has made any sort of effort to make the case that these incorrect citations occur any more regularly than any other sort of incorrect citation.

* Bicycles are a subclass of "slow moving vehicle". They have a rather distinct property of being very narrow. That property means that general slow moving vehicle laws (such as the "pull out" laws) might be unreasonably restrictive (and unnecessary) for bicyclists.

A good list. I would add 'providing almost no crash protection to the rider' as another rather distinct property.